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LAX772LR
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:32 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 45):
OK, I'll bite: Show me the way to pay for a 19" Y seat on LX 77W.

Pretty easy to figure out how to get a seat that's wider than 18" on that aircraft... though why you're limiting that to Y, is anyone's guess.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:03 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
It has said to be that Since the Gulf carriers have become a problem the major airlines of Europe's continue to lower their standards of quality aboard including food and service.

The ME3 started to become a problem in 2005 (ish). That is when the European hubs started ran out of ways to grow their capacity at the rate to meet demand. Growth happens. Where and how is not up to anyone, but rather the market will determine where it happens.


Did service impact? Unlikely, except for the amount of booze served and is the J class seat 'good enough.' Those that care about service went to business jets during the timeframe of interest.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
Spoilers! People don't pay for service.

Unfortunately true. So first the EU3 must offer the flights. Second they will have to keep costs under control. Or let DY gain market share. Aviation is an 'elastic market' where if the total costs of travel drop, the number of people traveling will increase.

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VCEflyboy
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:24 am

The euro legacy airlines' declining standards have nothing to do with the ME3. It started with the low-cost airlines like Ryanair and easy jet not only creating a new market but also taking customers from the legacy airlines. Then it was high fuel prices, difficult economic landscape and it became from bad to worse. Obviously the ME3 have surelybenefitted from this scenario with better service and lower operational costs.
 
Viscount724
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:49 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 15):
BA has improved imho.

Not in my experience, at least not within Europe. I normally avoid BA as I don't like connecting at LHR, but I flew BA Y class on an A319 LHR-GVA a month ago. I couldn't believe how cramped the seats were. They've installed new lightweight seats at a very tight seat pitch (not sure what it is but seemed like about 29 inches). I'm only 5 ft. 8 in. but my knees were tight against the seat back in front. I felt sorry for taller passengers.

It also looked to me like the rows used for business class at the front had the same seat pitch, with only the middle seat left empty.

I flew on 4 KLM 737s a week ago GVA-AMS-MUC and back and they were much better. On KL, which has long been my preferred European carrier, you also have the option of Economy Comfort at a very reasonable surcharge, using the rows near the front that aren't required for business class. Those rows have about 3 inches more pitch than the 31-inches in the standard Y rows, but even those seats were much more comfortable with better legroom than that BA A319.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:13 am

Most of my flying is short haul within Europe, in a typical year I'd book a fairly equal mix of legacy airlines and low cost carriers depending on where and why I was travelling but in recent years my choice has swayed very much in the LCC's favour.

I've never been particularly impressed with British Airways on short haul economy, there's nothing wrong with anything they do but it's nothing special either, it's a bog standard drink and snack service, the cabin crew are friendly and professional crew but often lack personality and warmth in my experience. Lufthansa are very similar and Air France is one to avoid in my books. Swiss are excellent in my experience, it's been a few years since I've flown them but I loved their service and quality, it feels like you're flying a very small, boutique airline when you are in fact on a major European carrier.

I haven't flown any of them on long haul in quite some time, BA to JFK is coming up next week. So far my pre selected seat has been moved twice without my knowledge, on the plus side it's due to an aircraft change and the latest update shows the newly retrofitted 'Super High J' configured 747 so that'll be interesting to see.

In terms of low cost carriers, 2015 was the year Ryanair became my most flown airline, quite a turn around after I avoided them for a number years! The 'Always Getting Better' programme they've embarked on has definitely changed the airline for the better, it's far more flexible, focuses on convenience and is consistently cheaper than others out of London. The cabin crew are friendly and relaxed, the cabins are ugly but comfortable enough with good legroom, flights always on time and with my most recent bookings costing less than £10 you can't beat them!

So called "value" carriers should be considered as well, airlines like Aer Lingus were slightly ahead of the curve in my opinion, they unbundled their services but kept a quality offering enabling you to build your flight how you wanted. This is clearly what inspired a lot of the recent Ryanair changes, the legacy carriers are catching on but have been slow to do so and only after they cut their own product offering first.

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kl838
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:08 am

European services to me are quite good, and definitely more enjoyable than the American carriers. Having recently flown all three major European airlines AF, LH, BA. Frankly, AF have been the best of the lot, and for everyone on here to say AF is horrible is quite wrong. AF were a lot worse before 2009, and at that time I mostly flew KLM, however they have made some great improvements in all classes, and do offer a much more pleasant service if not better than BA and LH. My last flight on their new best and beyond service made me realise that their business product is as good as BA's First. I really do have La Premiere on my list, but have heard nothing but incredible reviews. The new economy product as well was very enjoyable, especially after years flying the dreaded A343 between SXM - CDG. I can't wait till that aircraft is removed from their fleet.

BA have always been renowned for their crap service and dirty aircraft in my opinion and experience, they are a shadow of their former self. No one among my friends or family are happy to say they will fly BA, it is usually avoided at all costs. They are far behind in every class, with every airline stepping up their game.

LH have also been pleasant, but I must admit Frankfurt is quite a tricky if not overly large airport to connect through, Munich proved to be much better. Service standards were excellent, though I have not experience anything higher than economy on LH. I really do like LH and would fly them if they were competitively priced as AF or KL.

I would not say the airlines are lowing their standards but rather offering the opportunity to tailor your ticket to your needs. If you want extra luggage, legroom, fancy meal and so forth you can pay for it. If you aren't fussed but would like to save the money, then you are able to. As for the big 3 MEA, they are a big factor in raising standards, not lowering it. All these airlines know that passengers paying the cheapest ticket will fly them again regardless of experience, as long as they are the cheapest. I tend to avoid all of them, but I am only willing to try Etihad as they have quite interesting cabins in all classes, I am not a fan of Emirates and believe they are gaudy, tacky, and overhyped, and wouldn't fly Qatar due to my views on the ethical treatment of their employees.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:00 am

@Prost ( reply 2) ...it's not "indisputable" that the ME 3 have exemplary service....the worst service I have personally experienced in business class by far was on Emirates...in fact I will not go near them again in any class despite the fact that they are often the cheapest option out of my local airport. I am grudgingly grateful to them for forcing prices down on other airlines....but I won't touch them....and I know several people who have also sworn off them after poor service and arrogant responses ( or no responses at all) to service issues.
 
lychemsa
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:11 am

European carriers to cut costs are following the example of US carriers; at least in Economy Class.
 
Andy33
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:20 am

Quoting willd (Reply 29):
There is a long thread over on FT about the catering. DME was "downgraded" to being operated by the A321. As part of that downgrade, the A321, apparently, doesn't have enough oven space to be able to serve a hot meal to WT passengers. BA have, since April, been only serving sandwiches in Y.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with oven space as hot food is still served in Y on mid-haul A321s on other routes. They're round-trip catering the mid-haul A321s on DME flights rather than uploading more supplies at DME, allegedly there is an issue with the catering contract. There isn't enough food storage capacity on board to do this if Y passengers get hot meals, but there is if they get sandwich boxes instead.
Exactly the same principle as the BA Airbus shorthaul fleet - fly ATH-LHR and you get a hot meal in Y, uploaded at ATH. Fly KGS-LHR and you get sandwiches, round-trip loaded from LHR. In this case both airports are in the same service band and are served by identical planes, but KGS has no catering supplier.
J class passengers however continue to get hot meals in both directions.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:37 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 50):
Pretty easy to figure out how to get a seat that's wider than 18" on that aircraft... though why you're limiting that to Y, is anyone's guess.

Simple. Just as the wast majority of travelers, I can't afford to pay six times the price of the Y ticket for the next higher class, which is in case of LX J. And, just between us, even if I could I wouldn't. I tried LX J and it's not worth the money. So yes, going 10 across in Y without offering a reasonably priced W is a decrease in service standard compared to the Airbus fleet.
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maperrin
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:55 am

I live in South America and travel a lot to US/Europe/Asia, on Business Class. I have tried many airlines. 1- I do not agree that ALL European Carriers have downgraded their service on Business Class. I would say that BA did it a couple of years ago, LH without any doubt did it drastically in the past 18 months on a sad and chocking way, AF, TP, UY have slightly improved (they came from the low end), and LX is now fantastic. 2- AA/UA are a tragedy that I would not comment. 3-As in Europe some Asian carriers got really worse, such as TG, but other have great products, CX for instance. Japanese are perfect but not friendly. 4-Regarding ME, I have to agree with most comments there are completely overrated.They might offer extremely competitive prices on Business Class, but at the end you spend days in their planes, and connecting is a nightmare. 5-Finally you have TK case. You take it or leave it. Personally I hate connecting in IST, and their service is a show with no content, some planes are very uncomfortable, etc..​
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LAX772LR
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:42 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 51):
That is when the European hubs started ran out of ways to grow their capacity at the rate to meet demand.

Some yes, others no. CDG was really constrained in that way, AMS had just opened the new runway in '03, and FRA was only a few years from launching its new runway.... and that's just among the larger airports.

Where the ME3 became such a threat, is when they started going into secondary and tertiary Euro airports in a big way, often offering 1stop cnnxs to places that had previously required 2stops when flown via LHR or the continental hubs.


Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 60):
And, just between us, even if I could I wouldn't.

So then why whine about what you get in return for being of less revenue value? What'd be the logic in that?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:28 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 49):
Could you offer an example of the zone offering BA have, would really be interested. TIA

Thank you, most interesting.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:49 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 63):
So then why whine about what you get in return for being of less revenue value? What'd be the logic in that?

Huh? You have a problem to understand written text? Apparently yes, because the sentence you've picked is about the quality of LX J product, nothing else. Or are you just trolling?

Quoting futureorthopod (Reply 61):
DOnt even bother Wildcat. Just write her a lullaby. LAX772LR is usually catty and not capable of viewing a point of contention from a different perspective.

Thanks. He's on my personal ignore list from now on.
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vv701
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RE: LH,LX,AF And BA Lowering Standard Of Quality?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:07 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 44):
The 744 going to LHR was clapped out (some will be refit but for some reason, they are putting the refitted ones on routes like LOS which seems strange)

Four of a planned eighteen BA 744s, all previously in the 299 seat 'Hi J' cabin configuration (F14 / J70 / W30 / Y185), have been returned to service after being converted to the 275 seat 'Super Hi J' configuration (F14 / J86 / W30 / Y145) and having their cabins refreshed.

The cabin refresh includes the installation of a new Panasonic eX3 IFE System in all seats. New curtains, carpets, wall panels and lighting are also being fitted . W and Y Class seats are being recovered. A universal power socket accepting American, British and European plugs is being installed in all W Class seats. Y Class seats are being fitted with a USB socket to power both phones and tablets.

These four aircraft, G-BYGE and G-CIVF, 'VS and 'VW, were initially dedicated to operating rotations between LHR and DXB (BA107/06), JFK (BA175/12) and ORD (BA295/94). However a BOS rotation (BA213/12) was added to this listing on 30 December. The following day the BA113/16 rotation to JFK was also operated by a reconfigured aircraft for the first time.

When this reconfiguration and refresh programme was announced it was stated that the eighteen 'Super Hi J' configured aircraft would primarily be operated on the aforementioned routes and, additionally, that to LOS. This reflects the high demand for the J Class service on flights to these five destinations.

The existing six 'Hi J' configured BA 744s not included in the above programme are also scheduled to have their cabins reconfigured and refreshed. They are to be converted to the existing 'Mid J' (F12 / J52 / W36 / Y235) 337 seat configuration. I believe this down-gauging effectively reflects the change brought about by the entry into service of BA's 469 seat A 380s (F14 / J97 / W55 / Y303).

On completion of this conversion and refresh programme BA will be operating a fleet of thirty-nine 744s, eighteen in 'Super Hi J' and twenty-one in 'Mid J' configuration.

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