User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:51 am

Quoting compensateme (Reply 45):
let's not pretend the terminal is incapable of handling "mass of pax."

I was (unsucessfully) trying to make the point that "if" there was hardstand parking for some Int'l flights for T1 or T3 it would be extremely difficult to fit all those additional passengers in the domestic terminals.

You would have the domestic gates full of domestic passengers, which can already fill many gate areas...especially if the low C gates convert back to mainline from RJ, PLUS you'd have 200+ int'l pax waiting to board a bus somewhere near a domestic gate. If it were 3 or 4 777s, or similar sized A/C waiting to board a bus, you'd have to find a place for 600+ additional passengers in the building.
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 50):

INTL long haul should have the utmost priority of using gates. Having to be bussed in and out is not an experience one looks forward to.

And I agree ORD C is already jammed to the gills. No real need to make that further deteriorate into a total CF. they only real thing they need is adding FIS to T1.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:31 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 51):
INTL long haul should have the utmost priority of using gates. Having to be bussed in and out is not an experience one looks forward to.

We all agree with that statement however, 5-10 years down the road, UA will have fewer widebody gates available to use in T1 because the newer generation widebodies that will be replacing the 763s cannot physically get to some of the gates that the current 763s use...even with a terminal modification. The 787 wingspan is too great to allow the A/C to taxi between B and C without blocking both taxilanes.
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
DiscoverCSG
Topic Author
Posts: 595
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:54 am

Aside from the issue of the *size* of the aircraft UA might park at T1, what about the number of them that would increase if T1 were to get FIS? Don't forget that in addition to the widebody long-haul arrivals, there would also be narrowbodies from Mexico and the Caribbean and Central America, plus a few RJs from non-preclearance Canadian airports.

Is there room at T1/2 for these planes to park longer?
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:14 pm

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 53):
Aside from the issue of the *size* of the aircraft UA might park at T1, what about the number of them that would increase if T1 were to get FIS? Don't forget that in addition to the widebody long-haul arrivals, there would also be narrowbodies from Mexico and the Caribbean and Central America, plus a few RJs from non-preclearance Canadian airports.

Is there room at T1/2 for these planes to park longer?

Given the cost and logistics of building a FIS, the annual operating costs, the global expansion of pre-clearance and the direction of UA's ORD hub, I doubt there's any interest amongst UA or ORD to build a T1 FIS.

Quoting United1 (Reply 49):
Absolutely I agree with you 100% that UA has remodeled T1 lots of times over the past 25 years in order to fit their current fleet and will continue to do so in the future. Where I disagree with you on is UAs ability to reconfigure their gates to accommodate any more of the current generation of wide bodies...which is what the original comment that started this sidebar was about...

Admittedly I'm not familiar with the finite technical details of the ORD field -- but I'd be surprised if there was no way UA could re-configure a few more gates to handle 787 aircraft, even if it meant partially reconstructing impacted gates or impeding adjacent gates while a 787 is parked.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:19 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 54):


Given the cost and logistics of building a FIS, the annual operating costs, the global expansion of pre-clearance and the direction of UA's ORD hub, I doubt there's any interest amongst UA or ORD to build a T1 FIS.

It's also dependent on AA's moves. If, for whatever reason, AA decides to actually pay some attention to ORD and build FIS at T3, that might force UA's hand just to remain competitive.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:23 pm

Do both of NH's NRT flights use T1, or just the morning one? Which gate(s) do they usually use? I have seen LH aircraft at the widebody gates on concourse B, but I have never been at ORD while an NH 77W is parked at T1...
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:34 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):

They do.

Now, here's the kicker, when things go south during an event, both LH and NH are left on their own. During this last snow event, LH was pretty much forced to use T5 to depart from because they did not have a gate at T1.

Same with a return to gate, UA doesn't want them back at T1 and usually pushes them over to T5. Same with AA and the JV T3 departures. As long as things are good, there's love all around, but when it's not, it's all man for themselves.

God, I love this place.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 55):
It's also dependent on AA's moves. If, for whatever reason, AA decides to actually pay some attention to ORD and build FIS at T3, that might force UA's hand just to remain competitive.

A FIS would cost hundreds of millions to build, and millions in additional annual operating costs. Even if AA was silly enough to take on this project (which is unlikely given ORD's position behind PHL, DFW & MIA; and increased global preclearance), I doubt this would motivate UA. Improving the passenger experience at T2 goes much further than a FIS at T1 ever would, and it took how many years for UA to achieve this?
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 58):

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 55):
It's also dependent on AA's moves. If, for whatever reason, AA decides to actually pay some attention to ORD and build FIS at T3, that might force UA's hand just to remain competitive.

A FIS would cost hundreds of millions to build, and millions in additional annual operating costs. Even if AA was silly enough to take on this project (which is unlikely given ORD's position behind PHL, DFW & MIA; and increased global preclearance), I doubt this would motivate UA. Improving the passenger experience at T2 goes much further than a FIS at T1 ever would, and it took how many years for UA to achieve this?

Plus here's the kicker, DHS/CPB have said numerous times they don't have the manpower to split operations. UA would block any AA project as the same of AA to UA. Equal parity or none at all.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:48 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 58):
Improving the passenger experience at T2 goes much further than a FIS at T1 ever would, and it took how many years for UA to achieve this?

What's wrong with T2 ? UA already built a brand new lounge there.

The poor T5-to-T3 or T5-to-T1 transfer experience is one of the main reasons why I avoid re-entering the US via ORD if possible, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here. There's nothing to write home about IAH, but at least their single roof FIS makes it a slightly less stressful experience.
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 34):
UA is also bringing its look into Terminal 1; personally, I think in-seat power within the hold area is necessary, but I could do without the 'chic' look

I personally think the easiest and most obvious thing to de-ghetto ORD would be to actually put functioning fluorescent tubes in more than one third of the light fixtures in B and C. But then, I guess I am truly old school and do not understand the politics of Chicago and its union or management mentalities.... (tongue in cheek).
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:10 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 60):
What's wrong with T2 ? UA already built a brand new lounge there.

T2 is a decent facility today, but my point was how long did it take for UA to improve the consumer experience there? For years it was a hot mess; gate holding areas were a hodgepodge of carpeting, seating, podiums, etc. from different eras; there were few jet bridges; a confusing layout; minimal concessions/retail and a subpar Red Carpet Club. Even as UA increasingly dumped traffic into the terminal, they did absolutely nothing to improve the consumer experience; it wasn't until the last few years did they finally address it. It's a decent facility today, but the connection between T2 & T1 needs to be addressed. The current bus system is inconvenient -- only one stop at each terminal, requires stairs (try doing this with bags & strollers) and frequently has 15+ minute waits.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 60):

The poor T5-to-T3 or T5-to-T1 transfer experience is one of the main reasons why I avoid re-entering the US via ORD if possible, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here. There's nothing to write home about IAH, but at least their single roof FIS makes it a slightly less stressful experience.

IMO, it's not that big of a deal; the train makes it painless. IAH is very, very slow moving. I share my name with a wanted felon, so the automated kiosks (at any airport) will always redirect me to the full service lanes -- even when there's nobody at IAH, it takes me 2 hours to get through immigration/customs.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:24 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 62):
The current bus system is inconvenient -- only one stop at each terminal, requires stairs (try doing this with bags & strollers) and frequently has 15+ minute waits.

I thought there's a walkway corridor from B to E/F ? But maybe I'm lucky that I've always stayed within B/C and never had to venture out to F.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13911
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:40 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 62):
IMO, it's not that big of a deal; the train makes it painless. IAH is very, very slow moving. I share my name with a wanted felon, so the automated kiosks (at any airport) will always redirect me to the full service lanes -- even when there's nobody at IAH, it takes me 2 hours to get through immigration/customs.

  

To me, the experiences at the likes of ORD, DFW, IAH and ATL are pretty much interchangeable: for most flights clear FIS, clear security and change terminals on a train (not necessarily in that order depending on the airport). They are all inferior to one-roof experiences like MIA D, DTW or JFK Terminal 8 but superior to the terminal change on foot or bus experiences like many LAX itineraries, SFO or PHL.

To me, lines at FIS and particularly security make or break virtually all of these experiences.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 64):
They are all inferior to one-roof experiences like MIA D, DTW or JFK Terminal 8 but superior to the terminal change on foot or bus experiences like many LAX itineraries, SFO or PHL.

Assuming your SFO connection is Star-to-Star, then it's virtually "one-roof" - INTL G is just adjacent to DOM E/F. Of course certain Star flights arrive at INTL A, but that's a limitation of INTL G gate space during peak banks.

The issue with JFK is that AF/KE is not co-located with DL, and CX/JL/BA is not co-located with AA, so neither of those INTL-to-DOM would be pleasant at all.
 
United1
Posts: 3849
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:59 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 63):

Quoting compensateme (Reply 62):
The current bus system is inconvenient -- only one stop at each terminal, requires stairs (try doing this with bags & strollers) and frequently has 15+ minute waits.

I thought there's a walkway corridor from B to E/F ? But maybe I'm lucky that I've always stayed within B/C and never had to venture out to F.

There is a walkway...all three domestic terminals are connected post security...you can walk all the way from C31 to L10 if you wish.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13911
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:59 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 65):
Assuming your SFO connection is Star-to-Star, then it's virtually "one-roof" - INTL G is just adjacent to DOM E/F. Of course certain Star flights arrive at INTL A, but that's a limitation of INTL G gate space during peak banks.

Yes. I don't like the LAX/SFO/PHL "lump" (because there's quite a lot of variation at all three places), but I couldn't think of a better way to express it. I'd probably rather do a G to E connection at SFO than an international to high C connection at DTW.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Josh32121
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:02 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:37 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 64):
To me, the experiences at the likes of ORD, DFW, IAH and ATL are pretty much interchangeable: for most flights clear FIS, clear security and change terminals on a train (not necessarily in that order depending on the airport). They are all inferior to one-roof experiences like MIA D, DTW or JFK Terminal 8 but superior to the terminal change on foot or bus experiences like many LAX itineraries, SFO or PHL. To me, lines at FIS and particularly security make or break virtually all of these experiences.

How does ATL get lumped in there? It is a one-roof experience. There are two landsides but only a single terminal. The terms "terminal" and "concourse" have been used interchangeably in error several times in this thread. The experiences at ATL, IAH, PHL, SFO, etc. are substantially better than ORD, LAX, JFK (if changing terminals) because you do stay under one roof the whole time. That seems to be the only useful distinction vs. ORD T5. Aside from passenger experience, it just seems operationally inefficient to be constantly towing aircraft from T5 back to T1/T3 after dumping passengers there who most likely will also need to be back at T1/T3 for connections or to catch the L.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13911
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 68):
It is a one-roof experience. There are two landsides but only a single terminal. The terms "terminal" and "concourse"

YMMV, but I'd much rather ride the IAH and DFW trains than the ATL train. Both are generally far, far less congested. My point in lumping ATL with IAH and DFW was that you have a train covering miles of distance Whether that's technically between terminals or between concourses doesn't really matter to anyone but pedants.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:49 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 63):

I thought there's a walkway corridor from B to E/F ? But maybe I'm lucky that I've always stayed within B/C and never had to venture out to F.


There is a walkway, but the walk from the high F gates to the high C gates is a good 20-30 minutes at a brisk pace. Traveling with elderly passengers, children or persons with disabilities and the time nearly doubles.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:55 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 70):

There is a walkway, but the walk from the high F gates to the high C gates is a good 20-30 minutes at a brisk pace. Traveling with elderly passengers, children or persons with disabilities and the time nearly doubles.

Not for children per se, but what you've described is exactly the function of those terminal golf carts.

And concourse F is all UAX, so it really affects a very small portion of customers. The vast majority of transfers stay within B and C (and that nice little underground neon light tunnel that constantly reminds you you're at the end of the moving walkway)
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:46 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 68):

How does ATL get lumped in there? It is a one-roof experience. There are two landsides but only a single terminal. The terms "terminal" and "concourse" have been used interchangeably in error several times in this thread. The experiences at ATL, IAH, PHL, SFO, etc. are substantially better than ORD, LAX, JFK (if changing terminals) because you do stay under one roof the whole time. That seems to be the only useful distinction vs. ORD T5. Aside from passenger experience, it just seems operationally inefficient to be constantly towing aircraft from T5 back to T1/T3 after dumping passengers there who most likely will also need to be back at T1/T3 for connections or to catch the L.

How is the experience sustainably better at ATL compared to ORD? For most passengers at ATL, the process involves a long walk to and through the FIS facility and then a train rate to their terminal. For most passengers at ORD, it's a short walk through the FIS facility and then a train ride to their terminal. The sole difference is that when they exit the train, they'll be briefly exposed to weather and they'll reclear once they reach the terminal; for some, the walk to their gate may be longer. But it's not a "sustainably" worse experience.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 71):
Not for children per se, but what you've described is exactly the function of those terminal golf carts.

And concourse F is all UAX, so it really affects a very small portion of customers. The vast majority of transfers stay within B and C (and that nice little underground neon light tunnel that constantly reminds you you're at the end of the moving walkway)

There's actually a fairly large number of passengers moving between B/C and E/F -- probably a higher percentage than what you believe. I agree the golf cart is a viable option, but most people aren't comfortable taking it, for whatever reason.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:52 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 72):
How is the experience sustainably better at ATL compared to ORD? For most passengers at ATL, the process involves a long walk to and through the FIS facility and then a train rate to their terminal. For most passengers at ORD, it's a short walk through the FIS facility and then a train ride to their terminal. The sole difference is that when they exit the train, they'll be briefly exposed to weather and they'll reclear once they reach the terminal; for some, the walk to their gate may be longer. But it's not a "sustainably" worse experience.

In my mind, the main difference is clearing security. If you come through ATL on an international arrival, you get to re-clear security in the international terminal with only the other passengers who have arrived on international flights. In Chicago you have to go wait in line with the masses of O&D travelers at terminals 1, 2, or 3.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 72):

There's actually a fairly large number of passengers moving between B/C and E/F -- probably a higher percentage than what you believe. I agree the golf cart is a viable option, but most people aren't comfortable taking it, for whatever reason.

Do you have stats on this ? I recall E/F is exclusively UAX, so there's a ceiling on number of pax per flight, even assuming they're 100% connecting to B/C.

But exactly why are you bringing up all this disabled and elderly and what not ? How's that relevant to T5 or FIS ?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13911
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 73):
In Chicago you have to go wait in line with the masses of O&D travelers at terminals 1, 2, or 3.

Yes, but that gives the savvy traveler a number of options and, frequently, the ability to find a shorter line than the mandatory ones at ATL.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Josh32121
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:02 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:36 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 69):
YMMV, but I'd much rather ride the IAH and DFW trains than the ATL train. Both are generally far, far less congested. My point in lumping ATL with IAH and DFW was that you have a train covering miles of distance Whether that's technically between terminals or between concourses doesn't really matter to anyone but pedants.

Sure, point taken, but my differentiator was being able to walk the whole distance without going outdoors. And the distance is substantially shorter than T5 to T1 at ORD, for example. I agree about the trains at ATL. I've never seen them not packed, but I kind of like crowds. That said, I usually walk, and it's nice to have that option always available.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13911
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:37 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 76):
Sure, point taken, but my differentiator was being able to walk the whole distance without going outdoors.

To be fair, that's also possible at IAH even though it's an inter-terminal connection.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
RRTrent
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:12 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:36 am

Might we ever see EI move to T3?

Now that the IAG acquisition is complete, they will be joining the JV with BA and AA so it would make sense.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:29 pm

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 78):
Might we ever see EI move to T3?

Now that the IAG acquisition is complete, they will be joining the JV with BA and AA so it would make sense

Wouldn't a BA move be more logical? Although EI with pre-clearance would arrive directly at T3, AA would be hard pressed to give up a widebody gate for several hours twice a day.

I'd also say this, any move by a JV partner over to the domestic sides will open up another gate at T5 and would probably be back filled by another carrier. Thus, limiting potential growth by UA/AA. Keeping your JV member at T5 keeps that in check.
 
User avatar
RRTrent
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:12 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 79):
Keeping your JV member at T5 keeps that in check.

That's true, but for ease of connection it would make sense,

UA and AA both arrive into their respective terminals and have a seamless connection operation in place. Fly EI into ORD your connection will be on AA. EI moved terminals in both JFK and BOS to a domestic terminal to support connections (B6 in both cases) so that's where my thinking lay

it might possibly give another carrier an opportunity to expand, but from a business perspective for AA and EI, that could be offset by the extra revenue driven from increased connections.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:39 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 73):
In my mind, the main difference is clearing security. If you come through ATL on an international arrival, you get to re-clear security in the international terminal with only the other passengers who have arrived on international flights. In Chicago you have to go wait in line with the masses of O&D travelers at terminals 1, 2, or 3.

I have to agree with Cubs on this -- the re-clearance lanes at ATL are generally as long or longer than the standard security lanes in most airports. Plus there's no PreCheck at the re-clearance lanes (or at least wasn't the last time I went through there -- this is typical of most re-clearance stations), so if you're PreCheck, you'll get through ORD faster. And ATL is notorious for keeping multiple lanes open but forcing everybody through its single body scanner.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 76):
Sure, point taken, but my differentiator was being able to walk the whole distance without going outdoors. And the distance is substantially shorter than T5 to T1 at ORD, for example. I agree about the trains at ATL. I've never seen them not packed, but I kind of like crowds. That said, I usually walk, and it's nice to have that option always available.

For the typical passenger, I'd bet the process of exiting the aircraft and reaching their connecting gate at ORD is no longer than the process at ATL - and involves (a lot) less walking. Sure you're exposed to the weather for a minute or so at ORD but I hardly consider this to make the experience at ATL significantly better (and the weather is quite nice most of the year in Chicago).

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 74):
Do you have stats on this ? I recall E/F is exclusively UAX, so there's a ceiling on number of pax per flight, even assuming they're 100% connecting to B/C.



E/F is exclusively UAX but do you realize that in the first half of the '00, roughly half of UA's physical seats at ORD were operated by UAX? Physical seats per aircraft might be capped but >70% of the movements at ORD were operated by UAX. Consider that the lion's share of the local market at ORD is traveling to places like NYC, MCO, LAX, etc. - places operated exclusively with mainline equipment. Some UAX flights operate from T1 and some UAX passengers are connecting to another UAX-operated flight ... but given this, you should be rethinking your statement that the "vast majority of passengers connect between B/C."

Quote:
But exactly why are you bringing up all this disabled and elderly and what not ? How's that relevant to T5 or FIS ?

(Paraphrasing) You asserted that UA might add a FIS to ORD to be competitive and I responded by saying that wasn't likely given the fact that they neglected T2 for years and still haven't improved the connection. During my time with UA, T2 was -- by far -- the #1 complaint amongst passengers of all levels (including GS). You responded by saying there has been nothing wrong with T2 or its connection, which makes me think you've spent little time there over the past 20 years  .
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:01 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 81):

E/F is exclusively UAX but do you realize that in the first half of the '00, roughly half of UA's physical seats at ORD were operated by UAX? Physical seats per aircraft might be capped but >70% of the movements at ORD were operated by UAX. Consider that the lion's share of the local market at ORD is traveling to places like NYC, MCO, LAX, etc. - places operated exclusively with mainline equipment. Some UAX flights operate from T1 and some UAX passengers are connecting to another UAX-operated flight ... but given this, you should be rethinking your statement that the "vast majority of passengers connect between B/C."

That statistic is skewed because only a subset of UAX depart and arrive out of E/F. Do you have any indication that at least 50% of connecting pax require the T1-T2 transfer ?
 
DiscoverCSG
Topic Author
Posts: 595
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:04 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 81):
For the typical passenger, I'd bet the process of exiting the aircraft and reaching their connecting gate at ORD is no longer than the process at ATL - and involves (a lot) less walking. Sure you're exposed to the weather for a minute or so at ORD but I hardly consider this to make the experience at ATL significantly better (and the weather is quite nice most of the year in Chicago).

Funny thing: I've done I-D connections at ORD a handful of times in the last couple years, and I don't remember going outside. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I don't remember it. These must have been nice days when I didn't mind a bit of fresh air. And since I was not checking luggage and had premium security line access, it actually was pretty painless.

The part I do remember is having a long walk from the aircraft to immigration, and also being yelled at by immigration officers when I followed signs they'd mistaken left in place directing people to one shortcut or another.
 
User avatar
AmricanShamrok
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:03 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:24 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 57):
Now, here's the kicker, when things go south during an event, both LH and NH are left on their own. During this last snow event, LH was pretty much forced to use T5 to depart from because they did not have a gate at T1.

In this situation, would passengers still check-in as normal at T1/T3 and then transit to T5 for boarding?

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 80):
EI moved terminals in both JFK and BOS to a domestic terminal to support connections (B6 in both cases)

EI still uses Terminal E (the international terminal at BOS). B6 uses Terminal C there.
 
User avatar
RRTrent
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:12 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:31 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 84):
EI still uses Terminal E (the international terminal at BOS). B6 uses Terminal C there.

Ahh, for whatever reason I taught they had moved.
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 973
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:37 pm

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 83):
Funny thing: I've done I-D connections at ORD a handful of times in the last couple years, and I don't remember going outside. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I don't remember it. These must have been nice days when I didn't mind a bit of fresh air. And since I was not checking luggage and had premium security line access, it actually was pretty painless.

Same here. I don't recall being outside after stepping off the train to the AA domestic gates. Perhaps for United there is.
 
CHI787ORD
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:27 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 86):
Same here. I don't recall being outside after stepping off the train to the AA domestic gates. Perhaps for United there is.

You don't step outside. The airport train has indoor stations which connect to the domestic terminals with enclosed overhead walkways.

You are never exposed to the elements. If it is raining outside you will not be rained on. You are however exposed a little bit to the outside air temperature as the overhead walkways and boarding areas for the train are often pretty chilly in the winter and may or may not have their heat working.

[Edited 2016-01-07 08:50:33]

[Edited 2016-01-07 09:09:04]
 
mcg
Posts: 969
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:53 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 38):
Quoting mcg (Reply 37):
Why doesn't LX tow their aircraft to Terminal 2 for departure as do LH and UA? I suspect the answer is that they have simply concluded that it would be more trouble than it's worth, but I'm curious.

There might not be enough widebody gates over at T1 in the afternoon. I think there are only about 5 gates on the C concourse and 2 on the B concourse that can accommodate aircraft larger than a 767. It looks like in the coming schedule UA will need to accommodate at least 5 777s on T1 in the middle of the afternoon, plus LH would have a 748 at one of the gates on concourse B and NH might have a departure in there as well (but if I remember correctly that one might not depart from T1?). Either way, I don't think there is much room for additional widebodies at the UA gates in the afternoon.

Thanks for the info. For me, I think it would be nice if LX used T1 for departures. It would simplify connections.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:12 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 82):

That statistic is skewed because only a subset of UAX depart and arrive out of E/F. Do you have any indication that at least 50% of connecting pax require the T1-T2 transfer ?


You're being silly here. UAX operates from T2; a small subset operates from T1 (and in the first half of the decade, UAX flights to larger cities like DCA/LGA/etc. -- communities presumably having larger concentration of local traffic -- made up most of that subset). When nearly half your seats are operated by UAX, and local traffic disproportionately travels on mainline equipment (and UAX flights from T1), logic & reasoning should conclude that a large number of connecting passengers trek between T1 & T2. You don't need a finite number to realize that your earlier statement is inaccurate. The true number is probably close to 50%.

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 87):
You don't step outside. The airport train has indoor stations which connect to the domestic terminals with enclosed overhead walkways. You are never exposed to the elements.

No, you don't step outside but you're definitely exposed to the weather; when it's cold outside, it's cold walking to/from the train stations.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
CHI787ORD
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:27 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:22 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 89):
No, you don't step outside but you're definitely exposed to the weather; when it's cold outside, it's cold walking to/from the train stations.

That's exactly what I said
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 89):

You're being silly here. UAX operates from T2; a small subset operates from T1 (and in the first half of the decade, UAX flights to larger cities like DCA/LGA/etc. -- communities presumably having larger concentration of local traffic -- made up most of that subset). When nearly half your seats are operated by UAX, and local traffic disproportionately travels on mainline equipment (and UAX flights from T1), logic & reasoning should conclude that a large number of connecting passengers trek between T1 & T2. You don't need a finite number to realize that your earlier statement is inaccurate. The true number is probably close to 50%.

Your logic still makes little sense. You admit T2 is barely a subset of UAX. Even if UAX is 50% of seats (i'm guessing it's closer to 45%), the math doesn't work out to the *majority* of connections being T1-T2 type. Large numbers ? Yes (and that really depends on perspective of what is "large"). But your implication is that the majority of connections happen that way, which you haven't proven.

Your original point was to claim that T1-T2 is a hassle to the elderly young or disabled, but you might've forgotten that UAX is disproportionately patronized by road warriors, which rarely belong to any of those 3 categories.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 91):
Your logic still makes little sense. You admit T2 is barely a subset of UAX. Even if UAX is 50% of seats (i'm guessing it's closer to 45%), the math doesn't work out to the *majority* of connections being T1-T2 type. Large numbers ? Yes (and that really depends on perspective of what is "large"). But your implication is that the majority of connections happen that way, which you haven't proven. Your original point was to claim that T1-T2 is a hassle to the elderly young or disabled, but you might've forgotten that UAX is disproportionately patronized by road warriors, which rarely belong to any of those 3 categories

You're being silly. You asserted that the "vast majority" of passengers do not transfer between T1 & T2 and I responded with "there's a fairly large number of passengers moving between B/C and E/F -- probably a higher percentage than what you believe." No where did I say more than half. You responded by again refuting my assertion, but now you acknowledge that "large numbers" do transfer. So you're acknowledging your original assertion was inaccurate and validated my point.

So what exactly are you continuing to argue? Logic and reasoning behind available data concludes that close to half of UA passengers at ORD transfer between T1 & T2. It might be a bit more, it might be a bit less -- but whether the number's 45.13 or 53.65, it's irrelevant -- it's close to half.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 91):
Your original point was to claim that T1-T2 is a hassle to the elderly young or disabled, but you might've forgotten that UAX is disproportionately patronized by road warriors, which rarely belong to any of those 3 categories.

No, my original point was that the transfer between T1 and T2 is a hassle and UA has done little to improve it; you clung to a few words within my post. The bus only makes two stops, is limited in capacity (15+ minute waits are common) and requires stairs. I've made the T1-T2 connection a few hundred times, I know better.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:50 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 92):
Logic and reasoning behind available data concludes that close to half of UA passengers at ORD transfer between T1 & T2.

??? The only "data" you've provided is a broad assumption that 50% of seats are UAX, which itself isn't even a proven statistic, and you're basing your entire "reasoning" off a single number ?

If you want to have a meaningful discussion, stop calling any dissenting opinion as "silly".

Quoting compensateme (Reply 92):
I've made the T1-T2 connection a few hundred times, I know better.

This is just exhibiting bias based on personal experience, and your own route requirements. Maybe your hometown is mostly UAX and have no choice but make that connection, or you're a road warrior who is frequently sent to a UAX station. I don't know.

I transit ORD maybe 5-6 times a year and haven't had to do T1-T2 even once, ever, but I don't pretend my experience is anywhere near the statistical mean.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 92):

No, my original point was that the transfer between T1 and T2 is a hassle and UA has done little to improve it; you clung to a few words within my post. The bus only makes two stops, is limited in capacity (15+ minute waits are common) and requires stairs.

So what exactly do you expect UA to do ? A bus that has 5-7 stops every 3 mins ? Or a monorail train that takes you over to E/F ? Or super high-speed moving walkways like those they have at YYZ ?

If you think ORD's transit experience would ever be as smooth as ATL DTW DFW, then I guess i'll have to burst your bubble here.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13911
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:13 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 93):
Maybe your hometown is mostly UAX and have no choice but make that connection, or you're a road warrior who is frequently sent to a UAX station. I don't know.

I don't know why you would assume so much mainline-to-mainline connecting activity at ORD. Most of the cities to which UA flies appreciable mainline from ORD have their own flights to most cities with mainline from ORD. Most business travelers aren't flying LAX-ORD-DTW or DFW-ORD-BOS.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Josh32121
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:02 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:17 pm

Let's be clear. The ORD transit experience has room for improvement and is only slightly better than JFK. The ORD situation is made unnecessarily more cumbersome both for passengers and operationally (frequent towing of empty aircraft from T5 back to other terminals) because of the decision to have a single FIS in a terminal separate from where the two largest international operators base most of their flights. The train between terminals is outside security unlike ATL/DFW/IAH and probably some others I'm forgetting. LAX is possibly worse because there is no train, although there are some sterile connecting corridors and more coming (e.g., between T4 and TBIT). However, JFK and LAX each have several distributed FIS facilities. That mean an international arrival to domestic connecting flight doesn't guarantees a terminal change as is the case at ORD. If T1 and T3 each had their own FIS, this thread probably wouldn't exist.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:28 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 93):

??? The only "data" you've provided is a broad assumption that 50% of seats are UAX, which itself isn't even a proven statistic, and you're basing your entire "reasoning" off a single number ?

If you want to have a meaningful discussion, stop calling any dissenting opinion as "silly".

Despite the fact that nearly half of UA's seats at ORD this decade have been on UAX, the local market flies disproportionately to destinations whose seat count is overwhelming mainline, and that the very limited UAX operation in T1 generally serves markets disproportionately, you cling to the belief that the "overwhelming majority" of UA passengers do not connect T1-T2 based on the fact that when you travel from NYC via ORD, you don't. Seriously?  

You are being silly because you've acknowledged that logic & reasoning don't mean anything to you; only leaking a proprietary document would.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 93):
This is just exhibiting bias based on personal experience, and your own route requirements. Maybe your hometown is mostly UAX and have no choice but make that connection, or you're a road warrior who is frequently sent to a UAX station. I don't know.

Based on my own experiences? There are oodles of consumer testimonials here and elsewhere that feel the connection between T2 & T1 can be improved.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 93):
So what exactly do you expect UA to do ? A bus that has 5-7 stops every 3 mins ? Or a monorail train that takes you over to E/F ? Or super high-speed moving walkways like those they have at YYZ ?

I'm irrational because I think that running one bus that makes two stops is inadequate? You really believe that running two busses - instead of one -- is being too much? And asking for a third stop at B is just breaking the bank?
   
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:31 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 96):

No point to continue a mature adult debate with someone who uses this   nonstop.
 
User avatar
ua900
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:27 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
SFO and BOS being the other examples.

I'd actually count EWR Terminal B in there as well since it's quasi inaccessible unless you're transferring from say UA to LH.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 16):
I'm interested in how UA and AA turn international widebody aircraft at ORD since they have to tow them to other terminals before departure.

Same way as at LAX.

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 20):
I posted a few charts detailing the gate usage at T5 previously
Quoting stlgph (Reply 22):
Tom Bradley, Boston Terminal E and JFK Terminal 1 would also be interesting to see charted.

AmricanShamrok, great job with ORD, could you do TBIT next?  
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 63):
I thought there's a walkway corridor from B to E/F ? But maybe I'm lucky that I've always stayed within B/C and never had to venture out to F.
Quoting United1 (Reply 66):
There is a walkway...all three domestic terminals are connected post security...you can walk all the way from C31 to L10 if you wish.

   Cookie points if you're strictly UA and manage to find the USO rotunda / hydroponic garden. Some UA tablets for public use towards the transitioning area btw, nice touch. Check out the AA area once you're past UAX while you're at it, and B/C will seem modern and spacious by comparison. ORD (and EWR) vendor reshuffling has done more for UA customer experience than the new UA club.

Every place now has a Cibo market, Argo tea, hip tapas place, alternative sushi place, and a wine bar now, forget about Nuts on Clark or that gross deep dish pizza guy next to the shoe shine. Goodbye greasy spoon, hello hip restaurant with iPads in lieu of paper menus  
2018: AMS | ARN | CDG | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUM | HAM | HKG | HNL | IAH | LAX | MIA | MUC | ORD | RSW | SAL | SFO | SIN | TLV | TXL | VIE | ZRH
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13861
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: ORD Terminal 5 Operations

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:29 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 98):
I'd actually count EWR Terminal B in there as well since it's quasi inaccessible unless you're transferring from say UA to LH.

UA has an FIS in Terminal C.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos