Hi All !

I have been reliably informed that the QF63 SYD/JNB will be operating via PER.

It is doing so because it is carrying a spare engine to JNB due to QF64/4Jan going tech (number 1 engine blew).

The aircraft broken in JNB is VH-OJU

All things being equal it should be VH-OJS


ETD SYD 12.30hrs
ETA PER 14.30hrs
ETD PER 15.30hrs
ETA JNB 20.00hrs

Get those camera's ready !

not much point here, by 8pm it is dark.

Quoting andz (Reply 1): not much point here, by 8pm it is dark.

Hopefully Australian snappers will get some pics then.

View Large View Medium Photo © Darren Koch - DeltaKilo Aviation

View Large View Medium Photo © Jason Wood

EK413

[Edited 2016-01-06 22:14:49 by moderators]

Quoting EK413 (Reply 3):

Very cool ...

A view from the hill

What performance penalty does this add? Its stopping in PER en route so must be a bit. A winglet missing i think has been said on these boards to lead to a 5% performance penalty, this must be a whole lot more...?

Here's a QANTAS press release
http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/roo...ped-an-extra-engine-on-to-a-jumbo/

Sensible of Qantas to issue a press release, good damage control, for when someone gets on Twitter and says an enginge is dangling off the wrong side, and as a passenger they were terrified undertaking an emergency landing in the terrifying barbaric Wild West city of Perth...

Dumb question but is this the first engine being ferried by a 747-400? Or by a QF 744?

Quoting Halophila (Reply 8):

No it's been done before numerous times last time QF ferried an engine on the 744 was back in 2011

Quoting Halophila (Reply 8): Dumb question but is this the first engine being ferried by a 747-400? Or by a QF 744?

I highly doubt it, it's often the only way to get an engine to a stranded aircraft & a routine practice. I have flown on a UA 742 SFO-HNL while we ferried a 5th engine under the right wing to a stranded sister craft at HNL.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 7): Sensible of Qantas to issue a press release, good damage control, for when someone gets on Twitter and says an enginge is dangling off the wrong side, and as a passenger they were terrified undertaking an emergency landing in the terrifying barbaric Wild West city of Perth..

In this day & age, anything is possible. At the time we flew with a ferry engine, the best information came from the cockpit we obtained an update just before departure that the 5th engine was there & why, well in the days before social media.

It makes me laugh & cry a little, that your first reaction was from a social media perspective, it serves as a glaring reminder of how much things have changed just from my 70's - 80's childhood & adolescence.

747s have had this capacity since the beginning. I think the mounting points are standard equippement on all of them. It does come in handy to avoid the cost of a charter cargo aircraft.

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 12): 747s have had this capacity since the beginning. I think the mounting points are standard equippement on all of them.

No, fifth pod capacity is not standard equipment, its is an optional fitting at customers order. I believe QF is the only B744 customer to order it, various other B747 operators had it for other versions. I also believe QFs B744ERs are not fitted/certified for fifth podding.

Gemuser

What happens to pax's connections since this flight probably landed in JNB later? Will Qantas put them at a hotel and help/pay for new reservations?

Last time this happened it was nearly 5 years ago.


View Large View Medium

Photo © Darren Koch - DeltaKilo Aviation

How appropriate that the Kangaroo had a joey in the pouch!

Why not take one of the engines from the BA 747 damaged at JNB if it's still there?

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 17): Why not take one of the engines from the BA 747 damaged at JNB if it's still there?

That one was scrapped some time age. The engines are likely in use on four other BA aircraft by now.

All 747-100/200/300 series had the attachment point installed to carry a fifth pod.

If an operator wanted to use this option, Boeing provided the amended OM (after paying the required fee).

AFAIK only the PW JT9D series and the RR RB211-524 series were certified for fifth pod operation at the 747 classic aircraft.

No GE engines (-50E/E1/E2 and -80C2B series) were certified for fifth pod operation. Both GE engine types were designed to be split for (lower deck) transportation and all early 747/CF6 operators (KL, AF, LH, etc) had 74M and/or 74F in their fleets, able to transport a spare engine (no splitting required) at the main cargo deck.

I have no knowledge about fifth pod operation at the 747SP.

The 747-400 series are also sometimes used for fifth pod operation. Known users are QF and SA (both RB211 series). But almost all spare engines are shipped with 74M, 74F or other wide body freighter aircraft and this feature is seldom used.

The 747-8 series has not been certified for 5th pod operation. Also AFAIK no attachment point and re-enforced wing structure , inboard of engine #2, has been included in the new wing built up. ( for weight saving reasons ?).

What will happen to the damaged engine? Will Qantas carry it back to Sydney?

Quoting 747classic (Reply 19): The 747-400 series are also sometimes used for fifth pod operation. Known users are QF and SA (both RB211 series). But almost all spare engines are shipped with 74M, 74F or other wide body freighter aircraft and this feature is seldom used.

BA does not have 5th pod on B744. If an engine fails overseas, the aircraft is invariably returned to LHR for engine change. The B744 can fly about 8 hours on 3 engines (from a standing start). The economics make a 3 engine ferry much preferable over a 5th pod.
But QF and SAA have a lot of sea around their home base, and a 3 engine ferry becomes a problem.

Quoting goliontus (Reply 20): What will happen to the damaged engine? Will Qantas carry it back to Sydney?

Covered in the blog posting referenced above:

Quoting Grozzy (Reply 6): http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/roo-tales/that-time-when-we-strapped-an-extra-engine-on-to-a-jumbo/

Quote: And what about the spare engine that we removed in Johannesburg? It will be sent home by boat – a much longer journey than by air as an extra passenger under the wing to Sydney.

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 16): How appropriate that the Kangaroo had a joey in the pouch!

Well, a CRJ or ERJ would be more akin to a joey...

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 21): But QF and SAA have a lot of sea around their home base, and a 3 engine ferry becomes a problem.

I'm not sure the isolation of their home base is as big of a problem as the isolation of some of the places they serve. Flying from JNB to SYD using under 8 hour sectors isn't difficult, just circuitous.

NZ could carry an extra engine on their DC8's.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 13):

That's certainly what some of the comments in a Facebook post said... that only QF's RR B744s have the capability. Hence they had to wait for OJS to return from SFO before they could send the engine (one of the ERs did a 63/64 rotation on Tuesday).

I saw United 747 back in the 80s at ORD at the gate with a 5th engine.

The Virgin Galactic 747-400 that will launch rockets reportedly will use the hard point for the 5th engine to carry the rocket.

What happened to the RR-sticker on the 5th engine and what is the purpose of that white ring?

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 14): What happens to pax's connections since this flight probably landed in JNB later? Will Qantas put them at a hotel and help/pay for new reservations?

Good point. I was on an NZ 763 flight from AKL to APW when a similar thing happened. The first we knew of it was when we were onboard and taxying, the captain greeted us 'on this evening's flight to NAN'. He then pointed out we were carrying an extra engine on the starboard wing which we were ferrying up to Fiji for a plane stranded there.

Our flight eventually got into Samoa three hours late, around 3:30 in the morning, and the airline had done nothing to inform hoteliers etc or put on extra transport. Our driver wasn't waiting as arranged, our hotel assumed we weren't coming and had cancelled our booking by the time we awoke them after 4am.

I don't seem to see any fan blades in the photo, are parts of the engine removed or is it just a glitch?

Quoting lh526 (Reply 28): I don't seem to see any fan blades in the photo, are parts of the engine removed or is it just a glitch?

My understanding ( but I'm open to correction from those who are better informed than I am ) is that the fan itself travels in the cargo hold as otherwise it would create even worse drag.

[Edited 2016-01-06 16:05:19]

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 23): NZ could carry an extra engine on their DC8's.

May be wrong but I think all DC-8s could.

CP DC-8-43 with 5th pod.

View Large View Medium Photo © Gary Vincent

View Large View Medium Photo © Gary Vincent

Coincidentally, that aircraft, CF-CPG, was the DC-8 that became the first airliner to break the sound barrier on a dive from 52,000 ft. during a Douglas test flight before delivery in 1961. I flew on that aircraft a few times when I worked for CP.
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-o...the-dc-8-went-supersonic-27846699/

Managed to get this video of VH-OJS firmly touching down in PER yesterday.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 19): The 747-400 series are also sometimes used for fifth pod operation. Known users are QF and SA (both RB211 series). But almost all spare engines are shipped with 74M, 74F or other wide body freighter aircraft and this feature is seldom used.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 13): I believe QF is the only B744 customer to order it

SAA 744 with 5th pod in 1996.


View Large View Medium

Photo © Sunbird Photos by Don Boyd

Yes that was quite firm.... No floating there   

Quoting myt332 (Reply 31): Managed to get this video of VH-OJS firmly touching down in PER yesterday.

Thanks for sharing.

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 33): Yes that was quite firm.... No floating there

Yup that would have rattled the overhead bins and PAX spines..

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 26):

Not trying to be funny, but what's wrong with the RR sticker??

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 29):

I thought I'd read / heard the same in the past (probably around the time QF last flew a V-Pod sector).

Incidentally, does anyone know for sure if both OJS & OJU are still on the ground in JNB? That's how it looks from qantas.com, flightaware & FR24.

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 15): Last time this happened it was nearly 5 years ago.

Actually, it was OJL that did it the last time, some time after your photo on 20/07/2011 at 9:07 at night:



And the weather gods certainly delivered fantastic weather that night... Heavy rain! Always the way isn't it.

[Edited 2016-01-06 21:31:17]

Quoting myt332 (Reply 31): Managed to get this video of VH-OJS firmly touching down in PER yesterday.

Great catch mate, that was "awesome", to quote my 6 year old great grandson. Personally, I thank you for your time and effort. Well done.

1982 was flying BA DXB-HKG- Manila, plane was latte arriving DXB, then it landed with 5 engines, it seems the BA flight the day before via Bombay (not very sure if it was this airport or another airport in India) went technical and needed a new engine, so we took off very late and flew to the airport in India, the flight was slow and long, arriving there it took them a couple of hours to take the spare engine off, another hour to get the stranded passengers on board and then we continued our planed flight. We were like 10 hours late arriving in Manila, very tired, at that time even F was not very comfortable for such a long flight. Returned on SQ with those beautiful beds on the upper deck.

Below are some remarks from a Qantas crew, that performed an actual 5th pod flight


Only the RB211-524G powered 747-400s (ie, the -438s) are certified to carry a spare engine (or 'fifth pod'). The engine is fitted inboard of Eng 2.

The presence of a heavy additional load on one wing only entails several operational restrictions and considerations. Firstly, and most obviously, is the additional drag and weight (6524kg for a -524G-T engine) acting asymmetrically on the aeroplane. This requires considerable rudder and aileron trim to neutralise. We found that presetting one unit of right rudder trim (as required by the performance manual) gave the aeroplane an almost identical feel to a clean aeroplane during the departure and approach phases.

Secondly, the presence of such a sizeable object on the underside of the wing root (the most significant lift-generating section of the wing) imposed additional aerodynamic penalties - stall speeds, buffet boundaries and indeed the entire flight envelope are modified (in a restrictive sense), and (obviously) fuel flows were substantially greater. The aircraft's Flight Management Computer has a 'Spare Engine' mode, in which the relevant performance data and aerodynamic limitations appropriate to operations with a fifth pod are used in lieu of conventional 'clean' performance data. The activation of this function is annunciated both on the FMC CDU Ident page ('Spare Engine Active') and as an upper eicas memo ('VMO SPARE ENGINE').

Maximum airspeeds are reduced for fifth pod operations - the performance manual recommends a maximum 330/M0.78 (although the stated absolute MMO is 0.85). Speeds greater than M0.78 are likely to generate significant airframe buffet - indeed we felt moderate buffet throughout the cruise as the airstream broke down around the engine pod.

The front fan was removed (to reduce drag), and an 'ice deflector' fitted to avoid accumulation of ice inside the 'hot' area of the engine during flight through icing conditions.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 34): Thanks for sharing.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 37): Great catch mate, that was "awesome", to quote my 6 year old great grandson. Personally, I thank you for your time and effort. Well done.

No worries at all! My first post in nearly a year too.  

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 35): Incidentally, does anyone know for sure if both OJS & OJU are still on the ground in JNB? That's how it looks from qantas.com, flightaware & FR24.

Finally found my answer on qantas.com - OJS left JNB in the wee small hours of Thursday morning as Monday's QF64 and is currently enroute to SFO with today's delayed QF73. OEB is operating today's scheduled 63/64 rotation, while OJU is scheduled to leave a little later tonight with what must be last night's QF64!

I want to see a 777 ferry an extra GE90 engine!  

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 42): I want to see a 777 ferry an extra GE90 engine!

Hehehe !!

There's an inflight picture of it on Instagram:

http://www.instagram.com/p/BAO6BFNjHbN/

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 29): Quoting lh526 (Reply 28): I don't seem to see any fan blades in the photo, are parts of the engine removed or is it just a glitch? My understanding ( but I'm open to correction from those who are better informed than I am ) is that the fan itself travels in the cargo hold as otherwise it would create even worse drag.

Yes, the fan blades are removed and fitted into six boxes which travels on a pallet. A very crude plate is fixed in place to block the air into the IP compressor. I don't believe drag is the problem. You don't want the hydraulic pump and the fuel pump rotating for hours with no lubrication.
When the aircraft is ferried on 3 engines, the fan blades on the failed engine can be left in place if this will not cause more damage. In this case the hyd pump is still connected to the aircraft so can rotate OK.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 19): I have no knowledge about fifth pod operation at the 747SP

I might be strong but I could swear that I once saw a picture of a 747SP carrying a fifth engine. Maybe SAA or Air Mauritius or something like this.

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 35): Quoting N14AZ (Reply 26): Not trying to be funny, but what's wrong with the RR sticker??

Hmm, that's strange. Yesterday, there was another picture in this thread, maybe it was deleted, and in that picture the logo seemed to be twisted in relation to the sticker on engine no. 2.

A few issues with the flight once underway…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/757...lowing-problems-with-Qantas-flight

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 46): another picture in this thread, maybe it was deleted, and in that picture the logo seemed to be twisted in relation to the sticker on engine no. 2.

It's been removed. I understand we need to provide a source but in my case the source was a friend of my who gave me permission...

EK413

I'm guessing the 747 is a rare sight for Perth people these days, however many engines or pods it has ?

QF63/64 and in the olden days QF23/24 used to pass through Perth but HRE stopped operating and JNB went
direct from Sydney.