Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

q120 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:17 am

According to the CBC, the company will announce its route map, schedules, prices and booking details at Winnipeg's James Armstrong Richardson International Airport at 10 a.m. CT Wednesday.

NewLeaf Travel Company will offer non-stop flights from its main bases in Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ont., and Kelowna, B.C., to multiple destinations.

The source:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...innipeg-hamilton-kelowna-1.3389775

The airlines website:

http://welcome.newleaftravel.ca/

[Edited 2016-01-05 19:18:33]

[Edited 2016-01-05 19:19:24]

thekorean · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:23 am

Good. Canadian carriers need competition. Porter isn't cutting it.

YYZFAN · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:41 am

Quoting Q120 (Thread starter):
According to the CBC, the company will announce its route map, schedules, prices and booking details at Winnipeg's James Armstrong Richardson International Airport at 10 a.m. CT Wednesday.

Looking forward to seeing what they plan. Starting at YWG is interesting, seeing how entrenched AC and WS are there.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 1):
Good. Canadian carriers need competition.

I don't have a ton of confidence in an air carrier that has a website that appears to be in comic sans and is barely legible.

Nonetheless, I look forward to seeing their plan. If a new carrier can thrive in this country, I am all for it. PD brings competition to the "Golden Triangle" and other business routes out of YTZ. The issue is, it is very difficult to scale in this country. We have the same issue in banking and telecoms. There are smaller players, but they rarely make a dent.

thekorean · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 2):

I don't think thats comic sans.

jnev3289 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:07 am

Am I the only one being asked for a username and password for authentication when I visit their website?

Viscount724 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:10 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 1):
Good. Canadian carriers need competition.

Startup airlines in Canada have a poor track record. The list is very long.

This one sounds a bit like Jetsgo which was probably the last failed LCC effort. They operated 14 MD-83s and a dozen or so Fokker 100s. They lasted a little less than 4 years between June 2001 and March 2005.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Royal S King

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Yu

As mentioned in the caption, the Fokker 100 photo is dated 2 weeks before they suddenly suspended service with no notice on the Friday before the busy spring break period, stranding hundreds of passengers across the country with no way to get home.

DocLightning · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:11 am

Quoting Q120 (Thread starter):

http://welcome.newleaftravel.ca/

Asks me for a username and password.

Article says they will be operating the 734. Not exactly a low-cost airframe, especially since NewLeaf will not own them.

Ytraveller · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:12 am

Quoting jnev3289 (Reply 4):
Am I the only one being asked for a username and password for authentication when I visit their website?

I'm getting it too. But I had just visited their website 15min ago and was able to access it. It wasn't a full fledged website though, just sort of like an advertisement about their brand and upcoming launch.

q120 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:52 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Asks me for a username and password.

Yeah I just noticed that its doing that now.
As a side note.
The flight operations will be provided by Flairs Boeing 737-400 fleet.

http://flairair2.ca/

mariner · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:10 am

They're also planning stuff out of Hamilton - YHM

http://www.thestar.com/business/2016...o-offer-flights-from-hamilton.html

"New airline to offer flights from Hamilton

Canada's latest airline will unveil its plans for flights out of Hamilton airport on Wednesday.

Details of the announcement remain a closely guarded secret, but in a news release airport officials promise “NewLeaf plans to revolutionize the Canadian travel market.”

mariner

jnev3289 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:12 am

LCC 737s operated by 3rd parties... Anyone else immediately think PEOPLExpress?

ACDC8 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:55 am

Kelowna to Hamilton via Winnipeg - can't wait

longhauler · Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:14 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 11):
Kelowna to Hamilton via Winnipeg - can't wait

Sounds like Greyhound Air.

(Who also wetleased KFC's aircraft)

AWACSooner · Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:20 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 11):
Kelowna to Hamilton via Winnipeg - can't wait

If they go the FR route, it will be Kelowna (Vancouver-East) to Hamilton (Toronto-South).

ACDC8 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:24 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):
Sounds like Greyhound Air.

(Who also wetleased KFC's aircraft)

It'll be interesting to see what actual routes they announce today and how many of the 5 737s they utilize. They still do charters to the oilsands with the 737s and E175 and D328.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 13):
If they go the FR route, it will be Kelowna (Vancouver-East) to Hamilton (Toronto-South).

Vancouver-East, thats good LOL!

diverted · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:35 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 14):
It'll be interesting to see what actual routes they announce today and how many of the 5 737s they utilize. They still do charters to the oilsands with the 737s and E175 and D328.

They also were operating for 7F for a while this fall while one of their 734's were in for a combi mod. I wouldn't imagine Flair would want to tie up all of their aircraft on the hopes of this being successful and neglecting their bread and butter charters. I would think it will start with 2-3 frames and grow from there. Are they planning on getting their own certificate, or is Flair looking to take on additional frames if this proves succesfull?

toxtethogrady · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Quoting Q120 (Thread starter):
The airlines website:

Is restricted for mere mortals. Oh, well...

crazytoaster · Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:54 pm

Website is up.

Routemap is shown

http://flynewleaf.ca/travel-info/route-map-south/
All routes within Canada.

Noise · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:02 pm

Pretty ugly livery, IMO.

So I take it that Kelowna, Hamilton and Winnipeg will be their "focus cities".

Good luck to them!

[Edited 2016-01-06 08:04:34]

lesfalls · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 18):

Starting Operations FEB 12.

flyb · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:10 pm

Interesting choice of cities, I don't see how this will work unless they adopt some of the larger centres. Currently Vancouver and Toronto are the largest areas "served" via secondary airports, then they skip Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton. Is there enough O&D be their chosen focus cities? Time will tell.

lostsound · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:14 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 18):

Pretty ugly livery, IMO.

It's a hybrid between their scheme and Flair's. Hopefully when they get they're own birds they'll do something better...

ACDC8 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:21 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 11):
Kelowna to Hamilton via Winnipeg - can't wait

Direct, I guess I was wrong LOL

It'll be interesting to see if the concept works in Canada or not - they'll probably have a better chance once they start adding more exciting destinations down south.

ACDC8 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:36 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 18):
Pretty ugly livery, IMO.

Reminds me a lot of Pacific Western, design wise ...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dave Kirkby

jetblue1965 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting flyb (Reply 20):
Interesting choice of cities, I don't see how this will work unless they adopt some of the larger centres. Currently Vancouver and Toronto are the largest areas "served" via secondary airports, then they skip Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton. Is there enough O&D be their chosen focus cities? Time will tell.

You don't need to wait for time before one can tell. The answer is most likely and unequivocally *no*.

Someone forgot to remind them that Canada's population density is a jillion times lower than continental Europe, so what works with Ryanair (using secondary or even tertiary alternate airports) doesn't really work for Canada.

spinkid · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:53 pm

I thought Canadians had a large demand for going south this time of year. I would have expected more sun desitnations to start with.

Whiteguy · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:56 pm

Quoting spinkid (Reply 25):

I thought Canadians had a large demand for going south this time of year. I would have expected more sun desitnations to start with.

They do but it is sliding a bit with the high US dollar and slowing economy in Canada, specifically western Canada due to low oil prices. Add to that a large increase in southern capacity with AC, TS, WG, and WS.....

diverted · Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:57 pm

Just tried to make a booking for FEB15 YHM-YXX, figured I'd take the risk and try it out vs AC YYZ-YVR, but it appears their booking engine isn't working for me. Anyone else having the same issue?

Also, just noticed their Chief Commercial Officer used to be the Senior VP of marketing at MH from 2012-2015...Hope that's not a bad omen for them.

mpsrent · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:00 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 24):
what works with Ryanair (using secondary or even tertiary alternate airports) doesn't really work for Canada.

I agree. While I see value in Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Halifax, using Abbottsford as a Vancouver airport and Hamilton to replace Toronto doesn't work as it just adds complexity to the travel plans for those seeking access to those larger cities.

I hope I'm wrong however as I like competition, especially in Canada's limited market.

ACDC8 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 24):
Someone forgot to remind them that Canada's population density is a jillion times lower than continental Europe, so what works with Ryanair (using secondary or even tertiary alternate airports) doesn't really work for Canada.

Super low fares would work but even their "introductory" prices are nothing to write home about.

As far as using secondary cities, given the minimal fare difference, I don't see many people from the Metro Vancouver area racing over to Abbotsford.

As far as Kelowna goes, so far the only destinations are east being Regina and Hamilton - not too much of a market for them IMHO.

Polot · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:03 pm

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 26):
They do but it is sliding a bit with the high US dollar and slowing economy in Canada, specifically western Canada due to low oil prices. Add to that a large increase in southern capacity with AC, TS, WG, and WS.....

And this is a brand new airline (that is trying to be an ULCC). You can't just go and start scheduling international service, you need the proper certifications/licenses from all the countries involved which takes time and costs money.

polaris · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:14 pm

"Ultra low cost" and "ultra low fare" are two different things. Ultra low cost is what it costs the company to do business; ultra low fare is what it costs the client or passenger.

ACDC8 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting polaris (Reply 31):
"Ultra low cost" and "ultra low fare" are two different things. Ultra low cost is what it costs the company to do business; ultra low fare is what it costs the client or passenger.

Exactly, even though some Low Cost or Ultra Low Cost carriers try to sell themselves as Low Fare or Ultra Low Fare

mtnwest1979 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:35 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 18):
Pretty ugly livery, IMO.

Looks like part of the Planned Parenthood logo in the US lol.

As far a s service to Abbotsford, at least it is a very easy airport to get in/out of opposed to YVR. Since everyone lives east of YVR, maybe they figure pax will
drive east a bit before flying east lol.

aGreatWayToFly · Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:07 pm

Does YHM have bus service to downtown Toronto? Driving time from YHM to Toronto isn't bad, especially if on a comfortable coach. YYZ to downtown isn't necessarily convenient either. If traveling for leisure, I'd be willing to spend 60-70 mins on a comfortable, direct bus from YHM rather than paying $50 for a 30 minute cab ride from YYZ.

q120 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:14 pm

I have audited Flairs operations back in 2011 and overall they had a decent operation. I only found minor issues. The facilities in Kelowna are excellent and their maintenance facilities impressed me. I also had a tour of their aircraft and I have to say that their avionics package on the 737 is top notch. On another audit, I flew with them and their service was pretty good, again had some feedback on ways to improve in-flight and aircraft cleanliness but overall satisfied. So I feel that they chose a good company for their flight operations. Although I would of opted for the Embraer which likely has a lower operating cost.

Regarding NewLeaf, although I am happy that they plan on entering the market, although this is a huge gamble. The concept itself is good, ULCC... pay for what you want etc. This works great, but they should focus on shorter routes first to at least get a solid foothold on a market and at least a feel for their product and customer response. The aircraft are large, and filling them to break-even might a be a challenge. But overall I wish them luck, I am always happy to see new operators.

jetblue1965 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:19 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):

As far as using secondary cities, given the minimal fare difference, I don't see many people from the Metro Vancouver area racing over to Abbotsford.

Quoting mpsrent (Reply 28):

I agree. While I see value in Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Halifax, using Abbottsford as a Vancouver airport and Hamilton to replace Toronto doesn't work as it just adds complexity to the travel plans for those seeking access to those larger cities.

Bingo. I visit YVR once a year. For me, even Surrey and Coquitlam feels a bit wee bit far already. Can't imagine heading all the way out to Abbottsford. And I guess it takes a lot of consumer education to make them comfortable using these alternate airports.

Hamilton's business case is slightly better because it straddles Toronto, London ON, and Buffalo NY (not that I'm really endorsing it either, but hey, some amount of healthy competition is always good)

flyoregon · Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:59 pm

What's the name of that other proposed Canadian start-up that was going to buy 737's and maybe even had an order in for the MAX?? Maybe I'm just making stuff up?

jetblue1965 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:03 pm

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 38):

What's the name of that other proposed Canadian start-up that was going to buy 737's and maybe even had an order in for the MAX?? Maybe I'm just making stuff up?

U mean Canada Jetlines ?

flyoregon · Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:04 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 39):
U mean Canada Jetlines ?

That's the one...what's their status?

jetblue1965 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:17 pm

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 40):

That's the one...what's their status?

At this moment, greater than 50% probability it'll end up being vaporware.

The worst is when these companies take advanced bookings (and the money) then go poof before services even inaugurate.

rampbro · Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:27 pm

Omg this airline is going to fall flat on its face. I don't know what's worse the laughable schedule or the ancillary fees.

If the Canadian market is looking for competition, this ain't it folks. FFS Via Rail provide more competition to WS/AC than these guys do.

threepoint · Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:53 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
They lasted a little less than 4 years between June 2001 and March 2005.

Arguably the single worst four-year stretch of airline performance in modern history.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):
Sounds like Greyhound Air.

Although not the most efficient airplanes, the 734 is far better in terms of efficiency (2/3 the number of required engines and cockpit crew). So at least there's that.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 37):
I visit YVR once a year. For me, even Surrey and Coquitlam feels a bit wee bit far already. Can't imagine heading all the way out to Abbottsford. And I guess it takes a lot of consumer education to make them comfortable using these alternate airports.

If you live in Vancouver proper, I'd agree. But if you live in Surrey or Coquitlam already, it's closer to get to YXX than YVR. Indeed, half the population of Metro Vancouver can access YXX quicker than YVR. Using Abbotsford is not a novel concept, and it's safe to say that not much consumer education is required to enable residents here to weigh the pros and cons of using alternate airports (YXX, BLI) to the International.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 42):

If the Canadian market is looking for competition, this ain't it folks. FFS Via Rail provide more competition to WS/AC than these guys do.

This isn't competition, despite the marketing as such. It's merely to keep a few existing airplanes operating, now that Flair's primary bread & butter service (to oil camps) is slowing down dramatically. Weekly schedules and 2-stop transcon flights are obviously not geared to everybody, and the established players need not be concerned.

This being said, I fearlessly predict newleaf's demise before winter 2018.

ACDC8 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:13 pm

The Kelowna announcement has hit the local news just now and I found this article quite interesting ...

http://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna...155607/Kelowna-low-fare-travel-hub

According to the article, Kelowna service will begin with 5 weekly flights flying to Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon and Hamilton. First of all, 5 weekly flights (I counted 6) with 3 out of the 4 destinations being of very little use to passengers other than a few people visiting a friend of family, but then they're stuck there for a week before they can get back is kind of pointless. Second of all, the Regina and Saskatoon flights already end March 13th! What is the point? Thats even more ridiculous than Canada Jetlines proposed Penticton to Edmonton service.

[Edited 2016-01-06 12:15:15]

jetblue1965 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:22 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 43):

If you live in Vancouver proper, I'd agree. But if you live in Surrey or Coquitlam already, it's closer to get to YXX than YVR. Indeed, half the population of Metro Vancouver can access YXX quicker than YVR. Using Abbotsford is not a novel concept, and it's safe to say that not much consumer education is required to enable residents here to weigh the pros and cons of using alternate airports (YXX, BLI) to the International.

The "Half" of Vancouver that access YXX is just by geography. Once you account for population density (which skews west), it still tilts YVR significantly.

And that's only half the equation of Vancouver metro originating pax. If NewLeaf wants to use YXX to access Vancouver, the consumer education part is for those residing in other provinces. Let's just take Toronto to Vancouver, now it's Hamilton to Abbotsford. Maybe if they market it as "Hamilton/Toronto area" it might help a bit. I just hope they won't make the same mistakes that Skybus did and have canada return to the duopoly price gouging that we had for years.

StrandedAtMKG · Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:40 pm

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 2):

I don't have a ton of confidence in an air carrier that has a website that appears to be in comic sans and is barely legible.

The site design is fine, but you'd think they'd at least do some Photoshop work on that rickety old 734 and clean it up a little bit. It makes the average NW DC-9 look sleek, modern, and reliable.

CYQL · Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:35 pm

YQL is ready and able to be Calgary South!

Delta757MD88 · Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):

Was thinking more Independence air beacause they are an LCC.

Viscount724 · Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:47 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 45):
Maybe if they market it as "Hamilton/Toronto area" it might help a bit.

WestJet's original plan was to make YHM their hub for the Toronto area. It didn't work and they moved almost all their service to YYZ. In the current winter schedule I think their only YHM service is 2 less than daily nonstops to YYC (one 6x week, one 4x week).

L0VE2FLY · Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:14 am

Is it possible to run a profitable ULCC in Canada given the high airport taxes, fees, etc...?

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