Whiteguy
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 49):

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 45):
Maybe if they market it as "Hamilton/Toronto area" it might help a bit.

WestJet's original plan was to make YHM their hub for the Toronto area. It didn't work and they moved almost all their service to YYZ. In the current winter schedule I think their only YHM service is 2 less than daily nonstops to YYC (one 6x week, one 4x week).

Maybe your just referring to domestic service but WS also operates flight to MCO, CUN, and PUJ from YHM...
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:49 am

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 51):

All of which are distinctly southbound markets
 
opethfan
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:05 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 43):

If you live in Vancouver proper, I'd agree. But if you live in Surrey or Coquitlam already, it's closer to get to YXX than YVR. Indeed, half the population of Metro Vancouver can access YXX quicker than YVR. Using Abbotsford is not a novel concept, and it's safe to say that not much consumer education is required to enable residents here to weigh the pros and cons of using alternate airports (YXX, BLI) to the International.

My family is near Coquitlam and YXX has never really been a consideration for them. According to Google Maps it's a 5 minute shorter drive, but includes a toll bridge. Both Surrey and the Tri-Cities are pretty much right in the middle (depending on what part of each you're in) but the drive is nearly identical. For most, the niceties, route map, etc of YVR is too much to give up unless you're really pinching the pennies. I'd say that BLI takes (or has taken in the past) more from YVR than YXX has.

And once you take transit into effect, it's a no-brainer. You can take a train and a bus (2 trains in a year or so) from YVR to Coquitlam, and 2 trains to Surrey. Abbotsford is somethingsomething nowhere unless you have a vehicle.
 
qblue
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:41 am

They should have thought of Boundary Bay Airport. The runway is lenght is 5600ft just the minimum for 737 500. It's 30min to Vancouver if no traffic. But still minimal public transit maybe once an hour and just community small bus. But it beats YXX by an hour of driving plus $3 toll bridge each direction.
 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:01 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 49):
WestJet's original plan was to make YHM their hub for the Toronto area. It didn't work and they moved almost all their service to YYZ. In the current winter schedule I think their only YHM service is 2 less than daily nonstops to YYC (one 6x week, one 4x week).


Its not that YHM didn't work when it was their hub. The airline was growing but the airport failed to expand with the growth.
Their aircraft were parking everywhere, feet from the cargojet facility at the time to be specific. I ultimately blame the airport management for not doing more.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:15 pm

Could Trois-Rivières or Mont-Tremblant be the alternative for the greater Montreal area?
 
Noise
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:49 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 55):
Could Trois-Rivières or Mont-Tremblant be the alternative for the greater Montreal area?

I think St. Hubert airport in Montreal's South Shore would be the best alternative.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:16 pm

YXE-YHM return with one carry-on and one checked item both ways is like 180 bucks cheaper than WestJet and it's point-to-point, no YYC in between. Fair enough, and the main point is competition and choice for travellers.
 
Noise
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:20 pm

I don't think NewLeaf will be offering the opportunity to make connections, will they?
 
heathrow
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:16 pm

It's always great to see a new face in the game!

I feel like a major issue will be the holes in Alberta and Québec. From YEG, YXE is a 5 hour drive. Most people won't mind it, but arriving YHM makes travel a paid for anyone not in the Western catchment area of the GTA. YYC is roughly 7 hours from either YLW or YQR so good luck with that.

I'm slightly disappointed with the Flair aircraft. I hope they are able to grow quickly and make their own brand. As for crossing Canada in a 734, I don't see this being an issue at all. I flew 4N from YZF to YOW in their 735 and everyone was happy.

Eager to see what these guys can bring to the table!

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 55):
Could Trois-Rivières or Mont-Tremblant be the alternative for the greater Montreal area?
Quoting Noise (Reply 56):
I think St. Hubert airport in Montreal's South Shore would be the best alternative.

One might even say YMX would be the best alternative, but we're all a bit touchy on that subject  
Although airlines like Pascan operated from YMX after the terminal was closed, so you never know  

YHU would be an excellent resource but it would require much construction for facilities to handle that type of flight. I doubt Pascan could hold that many pax and a 734 would be tight on the ramp. P&W could handle the plane, but I doubt they'd want the pax.
 
ytz
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:37 pm

What they are need are bus services into the major cities. Hamilton would really well if the airline had shuttle buses that went to Square One (Mississauga), Yorkdale, downtown Toronto and Scarborough Town Centre. It could work well with a wave of flights coming in and buses heading out to those areas. They could sell tickets on those shuttle buses. Hamilton has a great catchment area, with most of the Western GTA in it. It's not a bad idea to use Hamilton as a Toronto hub. As long as there are shuttles that can make the airport accessible.
 
YXXMIKE
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:47 pm

This doesn't seem like the strongest business plan straight out of the blocks but then again I've not lived in Canada for a few years so I'm no expert.

As for the YXX catchment point it was (when I worked there many years ago) basically Hope to Surrey including White Rock and north to Mission and Maple Ridge. Having seen actual data on this exact subject that's where the primary catchment area for the airport was. That's not to say that people didn't drive from further afield such as Coquitlam or New Westminster but those numbers where fairly minimal.

What has changed since I left YXX is that Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford and Chilliwack have all grown substantially in terms of population so there is no doubt that there maybe more potential customers out there however...oil creep in starting to set in to Canada; without Fort Mac pumping the rest of the country is slowing down. As has been stated in many news papers recently many Canadians are pickled in debt so generally spending is expected to be down this year and then there is this question...why would you want to spend time in the Prairies in the winter?!

Quoting qblue (Reply 53):
They should have thought of Boundary Bay Airport. The runway is lenght is 5600ft just the minimum for 737 500. It's 30min to Vancouver if no traffic. But still minimal public transit maybe once an hour and just community small bus. But it beats YXX by an hour of driving plus $3 toll bridge each direction.

No facilities capable of handling the aircraft and no real future growth potential (if they do survive)...and if they do survive and say wanted to offer flights to PVR or CUN then they would need a YVR or YXX to process customs so it's not really a great option in the long run. I also want to say (but can't be certain) that there are some noise restrictions around that airport...but don't quote me on that (if that's possible on a.net)

Quoting heathrow (Reply 59):
I'm slightly disappointed with the Flair aircraft. I hope they are able to grow quickly and make their own brand. As for crossing Canada in a 734, I don't see this being an issue at all. I flew 4N from YZF to YOW in their 735 and everyone was happy.

I suspect they where dirt cheap to wet lease and with oil prices in the gutter at the moment they aren't going to be producing fat fuel bills everyday.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:04 pm

I don't have a clue how they plan to market/advertise these flights. It looks like a two aircraft operation (one milk run in more or less each direction across the country each day).
That is not a lot of revenue to be able to support much advertising. I wish them luck. I suspect that when oil prices return to normal that Flair will lose interest in this venture.
I don't blame them for avoiding Alberta (crap economy/WestJet fortress). They also seem to be avoiding PD's home turf (YTZ/YUL/YOW/Maritimes) for now.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:20 pm

Now what are the potential US routes that would target NewLeaf?
 
threepoint
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:42 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 44):
The "Half" of Vancouver that access YXX is just by geography. Once you account for population density (which skews west), it still tilts YVR significantly.

Think about time, cost & convenience, not just distance. It may be shorter in road distance to YVR from many points in Metro, but it's often much quicker to get to YXX and cheaper & easier upon arrival.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 49):
Is it possible to run a profitable ULCC in Canada given the high airport taxes, fees, etc...?

From YVR and YYZ, likely not. Hence the discussion about Hamilton and Abbotsford.

Quoting opethfan (Reply 52):
For most, the niceties, route map, etc of YVR is too much to give up unless you're really pinching the pennies.

Those penny pinchers are exactly the target demographic of newleaf.

Quoting qblue (Reply 53):
They should have thought of Boundary Bay Airport. The runway is lenght is 5600ft just the minimum for 737 500. It's 30min to Vancouver if no traffic. But still minimal public transit maybe once an hour and just community small bus.

Boundary Bay is an unsuitable airport for a number of reasons. Having been chased out of YVR years ago, I'm sure many of the busier flight schools in ZBB wouldn't be too keen on having their approaches delayed, ramp space occupied and fuel truck prioritized by a new entrant using a 737. I'm also sure that the newleaf pilots would be white-knuckling it into Boundary Bay as their TCAD illuminates all the unpredictable student pilots filling the skies.

Quoting qblue (Reply 53):
But it beats YXX by an hour of driving plus $3 toll bridge each direction.

From where does Boundary Bay beat Abbotsford by "an hour of driving"? Port Mann costs $3.15 btw.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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czbbflier
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:29 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 64):
From where does Boundary Bay beat Abbotsford by "an hour of driving"? Port Mann costs $3.15 btw.

Threepoint- all your points are valid.

But to answer this last one, Ladner and Tsawwassen.
 
opethfan
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:02 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 64):
Those penny pinchers are exactly the target demographic of newleaf.

Absolutely, but there's a lot more to it than just the flight pricing. For instance, how much is parking at YXX? Or a cab to and from? Or gas? And while someone in the 'burbs might be willing to drive a little ways east instead of west to save some coin on the flight, I doubt anyone west of Burnaby would be willing to do so, if the savings are lost in parking or gas money compared to taking the Canada Line.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 64):
Port Mann costs $3.15 btw.

As does the Golden Ears. Between $3.15 and $4.35 per way.

Quoting qblue (Reply 53):
They should have thought of Boundary Bay Airport. The runway is lenght is 5600ft just the minimum for 737 500. It's 30min to Vancouver if no traffic. But still minimal public transit maybe once an hour and just community small bus. But it beats YXX by an hour of driving plus $3 toll bridge each direction.

Speaking of Boundary Bay, how about Pitt Meadows, the other small GA airport in the GVRD? Of course it doesn't have any facilities, but neither does Boundary Bay.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:36 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 64):
Quoting qblue (Reply 53):
They should have thought of Boundary Bay Airport. The runway is lenght is 5600ft just the minimum for 737 500. It's 30min to Vancouver if no traffic. But still minimal public transit maybe once an hour and just community small bus.

Boundary Bay is an unsuitable airport for a number of reasons. Having been chased out of YVR years ago, I'm sure many of the busier flight schools in ZBB wouldn't be too keen on having their approaches delayed, ramp space occupied and fuel truck prioritized by a new entrant using a 737. I'm also sure that the newleaf pilots would be white-knuckling it into Boundary Bay as their TCAD illuminates all the unpredictable student pilots filling the skies.

Boundary Bay was Canada's 7th busiest airport in aircraft movements in 2014, up 6.9% from 2013, and Abbotsford was 12th busiest, up 6.7% from 2013.

Top 12 in movements for 2014:

YYZ 436,640
YVR 311,747
YYC 250,953
YUL 219,326
YEG 168,889
YYJ 166,524
ZBB (Boundary Bay) 155,594
YOW 154,637
YHU (Montreal/St Hubert) 149,641
YBW (Calgary/Springbank) 146,780
YWG 123,778
YXX (Abbotsford) 122,213
 
chrisp390
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:44 am

Glad to see some competition. You could hardly call Westjet a low cost airline these days as their fares seem to only match Air Canada and prices on many domestic routes are outrageous. I wish them luck and hope they succeed!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:17 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 68):
Glad to see some competition. You could hardly call Westjet a low cost airline these days as their fares seem to only match Air Canada and prices on many domestic routes are outrageous

The "low cost" in LCC refers to the airline's costs, not the fares. That's a common misunderstanding.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:28 pm

What is NewLeaf regarding Transport Canada? Is it an airlina and has an AOC in its name which has been obtained after providing all the requirements and so has an ICAO three-letter code, a callsign, an IATA two-letter code maybe... or is it a travel agent or any other commercial entity that sells flights... using Flair which has the AOC and all that good stuff to run an airline technically?!
 
threepoint
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:50 pm

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 65):
But to answer this last one, Ladner and Tsawwassen.

There's barely 35-40 min difference between the two, but ok.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 67):
Boundary Bay was Canada's 7th busiest airport in aircraft movements in 2014, up 6.9% from 2013, and Abbotsford was 12th busiest, up 6.7% from 2013.

Absolutely. Reinforces my point about mixing airliners (albeit infrequent arrivals) with a swarm of light traffic. But if it can work in Abby, it might be feasible in Boundary Bay. ATC would just have their work cut out for them, that's all.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:55 pm

Just tried comparing them from Hamilton to Halifax comparison to YYZ to Halifax. They were 100 dollars more then westjet on the route so I don't see them being successful.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
Airontario
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:34 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 70):

What is NewLeaf regarding Transport Canada? Is it an airlina and has an AOC in its name which has been obtained after providing all the requirements and so has an ICAO three-letter code, a callsign, an IATA two-letter code maybe... or is it a travel agent or any other commercial entity that sells flights... using Flair which has the AOC and all that good stuff to run an airline technically?!

As I understand it, it's a Capacity Purchase Agreement between NewLeaf and Flair. With Flair providing the aircraft/crews/maintenance and NewLeaf doing the marketing and sales.
 
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Ytraveller
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 63):
Now what are the potential US routes that would target NewLeaf?

As they're going after leisure destinations, probably Florida and LAS (Canada is our largest source of int'l passengers).
 
bennett123
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:14 pm

Qblue

They will not be operating the B737-500.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:50 pm

Quoting qblue (Reply 53):

They should have thought of Boundary Bay Airport. The runway is lenght is 5600ft just the minimum for 737 500. It's 30min to Vancouver if no traffic. But still minimal public transit maybe once an hour and just community small bus. But it beats YXX by an hour of driving plus $3 toll bridge each direction.


So that's what you want, an airline operating into an airport with a runway that's the minimum required? Not to mention the minimum is probably on a bare and dry runway with no wind.....
 
qblue
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:46 pm

SW operate out of Midway hundreds of times a week with two of the three runway only 5507 and 5141 feet long. Midway pilots also have snow and ice to deal with. SW use to fly Detroit city airport (KDET) with only 4090ft. So 5600ft runway at Boundery Bay can be looked at. It is the coffee size terminal that will stop to this, but plans are out for a new terminal.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:12 pm

Quoting qblue (Reply 77):
SW operate out of Midway hundreds of times a week with two of the three runway only 5507 and 5141 feet long. Midway pilots also have snow and ice to deal with. SW use to fly Detroit city airport (KDET) with only 4090ft. So 5600ft runway at Boundery Bay can be looked at. It is the coffee size terminal that will stop to this, but plans are out for a new terminal.

A new terminal in ZBB? Surely the new one now is only operating at around 1% capacity.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:44 am

I give it 6 months. We need the competition, but Regina & Winnipeg...? We need a carrier to take on the big two head on YVR & YYC to YUL & YYZ and operate exactly like Spirit and use a high density A321.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 78):
A new terminal in ZBB? Surely the new one now is only operating at around 1% capacity.

It is a brand new terminal... and it serves 9 pax at a time from Orca ho's - when they remember to operate. Capacity wise I think even a 50 seater would be a real stretch if there was a full load inbound at outbound in the terminal at the same time. Realistically a B1900 is where ZBB would be at to move to the next level.

Quoting opethfan (Reply 66):
how about Pitt Meadows, the other small GA airport in the GVRD?

Longest runway 4700', get a Dash 8 in there I guess. But no meaningful terminal or any facilities to handle even 20+ pax at once.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
chrisp390
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:24 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 72):

That is because WS is undercutting them to try and keep them out. If they were to fail WS would raise prices back to the stupid levels they were previously at
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:56 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 79):
I give it 6 months. We need the competition, but Regina & Winnipeg...? We need a carrier to take on the big two head on YVR & YYC to YUL & YYZ and operate exactly like Spirit and use a high density A321.

That was my thought as well. It wont last past Labour Day.

And .... flying from nowhere to nowhere, a couple times a week??? A lot of airlines have flown into YXX and YHM, and simply, if the demand were there, airlines would still be there. If this venture really wanted to scare the hell out of AC and WS, they'd be flying the routes you quote.

It's like the old adage about competition; if you want to compete with McDonald's, don't pretend they don't exist and hide from them, set up shop right across the street!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
YXXMIKE
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 79):
Longest runway 4700', get a Dash 8 in there I guess. But no meaningful terminal or any facilities to handle even 20+ pax at once.

There are really only two available airports which can handle commercial air traffic in the lower mainland; YVR & YXX. The obvious differences in size/location/catchment area pretty well known so it's probably never crossed anyone's mind before. YXX offers the low cost airport option in comparison to YVR; it's generally a hassle free airport meaning by the time you park your car and walk to the terminal it's only taken 2 - 3 minutes. There isn't a great deal once you get there but that just goes with the territory.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 81):
That was my thought as well. It wont last past Labour Day.

I think this is one of those rare a.net moments where we all agree on this being a failure!?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 81):
And .... flying from nowhere to nowhere, a couple times a week??? A lot of airlines have flown into YXX and YHM, and simply, if the demand were there, airlines would still be there. If this venture really wanted to scare the hell out of AC and WS, they'd be flying the routes you quote.

The problem for both YXX & YHM is that there are ultimately only two main carriers in this country and both of those airports would erode the nice margins they make out of YVR & YYZ respectively. So even though there is proof available that YXX could sustain a year round service to YYZ it's just not good for the overall business of either airline so it's not going to happen. I'm sure there are a number routes out of YHM which would fit into that same category.

The bigger question is does Canada need a third airline flying from coast to coast? Would this business have made more sense if it went with an Allegiant mode?l It may have had a chance from one primary airport (YVR or YYZ) but the costs would certainly need to be low enough to even have a chance of it lasting a year. I think PD could have been the only viable option for a bit more competition but as it stands that doesn't look like it's going to happen for the next few years.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:22 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 82):
The problem for both YXX & YHM is that there are ultimately only two main carriers in this country and both of those airports would erode the nice margins they make out of YVR & YYZ respectively. So even though there is proof available that YXX could sustain a year round service to YYZ it's just not good for the overall business of either airline so it's not going to happen. I'm sure there are a number routes out of YHM which would fit into that same category.

That makes sense, but my thoughts were that because there is a duopoly, and that AC and WS are always trying to "one up" each other, a periferal airport like YHM or YXX might just be that "edge". And it wouldn't be that it was eroding that airline's yields at the larger airport like YYZ or YVR, but more that it was eroding the other airline's yields, as the theory would be that they were offering something the other wasn't.

Both AC and WS have had significant operations at YHM and YXX, I am sure they know if expansion were warranted.

But looking at AC (for example) with 80+% load factors and wide-body aircraft every hour (plus half hour during peaks) from YYZ - YVR, it is unlikely one or two A320s out of YXX or YHM would really be that much of a dent. When Rouge was flying YYZ-YXX, I noticed healthy loads at the same fare as YYZ-YVR. Clearly AC was going after a different market ... and finding it. But is that market enough on which to start a new airline ... I am not convinced.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
rutankrd
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:24 pm

What on earth is a ULCC ?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:31 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 84):
What on earth is a ULCC ?

Ultra Low Cost Carrier.

If would could assume WN (for example) as a Low Cost Carrier, then NK (for example) would be the next step lower.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
rutankrd
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:48 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 85):
Ultra Low Cost Carrier.

If would could assume WN (for example) as a Low Cost Carrier, then NK (for example) would be the next step lower.


OH another nonsense marketing term for the same old business model then, of a virtual airline with as many cost basis and the associated risk moved to suppliers and other contractors then.

Then a fare system that is designed around complex programming yield management and de-bundling.

The real term should be a Flexible Fares Point to Point Carrier but that doesn't pass the advertising messages test does it ?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:12 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 83):
Both AC and WS have had significant operations at YHM and YXX, I am sure they know if expansion were warranted.

I think "significant" may be a bit of a stretch, especially with respect to YXX.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:49 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 80):
That is because WS is undercutting them to try and keep them out. If they were to fail WS would raise prices back to the stupid levels they were previously at

Isn't that what everyone says about AC when WS enters a market?  
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longhauler
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:51 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 87):
I think "significant" may be a bit of a stretch, especially with respect to YXX.

Well, AC has had two separate attempts at daily YYZ-YXX, and will start again next summer. And using Jazz, they have flown from YXX several times a day to Alberta. I am going to guess that is enough to see what demand exists. I find it curious that AC's fares from YYZ-YXX are identical to YYZ-YVR. They are not going after a cheaper market, just a different market.

If anything, YHM was a bit lacking, with only 3 x daily YHM-YOW and 3 x daily YHM-YUL. However, twice AC has planned a YHM start-up for longer flights ... that never flew.
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:24 pm

Quoting heathrow (Reply 59):
It's always great to see a new face in the game!

Yeah, but it remains to see how long will it stick around once they are under the spotlight and being scrutinized by medias to catch their first mistake and flood the news with it.
 
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:45 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 89):

Significant for a small airport. I hadn't been long throwing bags at YXX when AC had started their first YYZ attempt with an A320 Tango machine during the summer and the Jazz F100 3 (maybe 5?) times per day to YYC. However it was before my time that C3 actually had started to try and put together a year round YXX - YYZ service but then 9/11 came along and it went down the tubes.

Between 2002 - 2006(ish) was probably the hay day for YXX in terms of commercial business. Some interesting flights to say the least

WS - YYC & YEG (daily) PVR( winter only).
AC - YYC (daily) (YYZ) (summer only). The YYC flights then became ZIP operated and then they pulled out altogether.
Helijet - Victoria Harbour
Airspeed - YYJ
CMA - YLW/YXS service
TS - CUN (operated by CanJet)

There was also some very brief appearances and charters such as a Zoom flight to LGW but stopped in YYC (I think?) and if I'm not mistaken WS has attempted LAS service a couple of times but BLI pretty much had that market tied up given it's proximity to YXX.

Given the population growth on the east side of the Port Mann I'd say a year round YYZ service could work if marketed well and competitively priced and appropriately scheduled (daily summer, 3 - 4 winter). It's a low cost airport for both the airlines and passengers and given the current oil prices it's much lower risk than it was a few years ago; maybe one for Rouge?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:10 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 91):
I hadn't been long throwing bags at YXX when AC had started their first YYZ attempt with an A320 Tango

I had forgotten that Air Canada flew to YXX with Tango. I was referring to the E190 daily flight to Toronto around 2006, and last Summer with a Rouge A319.

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 91):
maybe one for Rouge?

Rouge will fly again this summer to YXX from YYZ with an A319.
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tguman
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:14 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 43):
Second of all, the Regina and Saskatoon flights already end March 13th! What is the point?

Time change in the rest of the country means that Regina and Saskatoon flights shift 1 hour earlier in the day. You can book flights after March 13th, but they will depart an hour earlier. This is actually the case with all Domestic and Transborder flights.

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ACDC8
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:27 pm

Quoting tguman (Reply 93):

Time change in the rest of the country means that Regina and Saskatoon flights shift 1 hour earlier in the day. You can book flights after March 13th, but they will depart an hour earlier. This is actually the case with all Domestic and Transborder flights.

Yeah, I was wondering about that but the schedule isn't very clear (at least for me LOL) - in the one column, it explains the time changes and in the next column it simply says "ends MAR13". Thanks though  
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bmacleod
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:16 pm

Another Jetsgo by looks of it....

How they'll survive on those Dollarama-type fares is beyond me....
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threepoint
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:27 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 81):
It's like the old adage about competition; if you want to compete with McDonald's, don't pretend they don't exist and hide from them, set up shop right across the street!

This isn't a case of trying to compete with McDonalds, it's about targeting a different consumer altogether. The two established carriers pursue a good blend of leisure and premium traveler (WS only relatively recently offering premium-ish services). newleaf and its myriad predecessors solely focus on those who may not otherwise travel - the purely price-conscious flyer to whom schedules, amenities and frequencies matter little.
Trying to stay with your restaurant analogy, if AC/WS are the McDonalds (located in the central town square and selling mostly fast food (but the menu includes premium McCafes, signature wraps and salads to cater to those willing to pay a bit more), then perhaps newleaf is a guy in a street cart who sets up a block away off the main street and sells just hotdogs on white buns. The cart is only open between 10pm and 2am on weekends and caters to the young bar crowd. Ketchup, relish and mustard are extra.

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 82):
I think this is one of those rare a.net moments where we all agree on this being a failure!?

We have a great deal of precedent to look upon.
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:16 am

The ultra-low cost travel option already exists. It's called greyhound. Lots of people go days without having a shower to travel across the country for a few bucks. If this airline wants to lure these customers, good luck to them! Then they are really gonna compete with McDonald's!!!!

The idea of stimulating a new market is PR stuff that looks good on a press release and cheers local politicians and airport officials who conceivably hand out subsidies in one form or another, but it doesn't exactly work like that. Winnipeg is not gonna climb on the top of tripadvisor's hottest places to visit just because this airline has opened shop.
 
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:51 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 96):

This isn't a case of trying to compete with McDonalds, it's about targeting a different consumer altogether.

That is assuming they are targeting a customer who wishes to actually fly from YXX to YHM. If so, then a simple search and there they are. But .... if they are really looking at YVR to YYZ, then it is the same consumer, and hiding in YXX or YHM isn't going to help them, as the customer wont even know they exist. That is, unless they do a Porter style of advertising in every daily newspaper, every day for 5 years ... and that kind of defeats the ULCC concept.

I only used McDonalds as an example, as it is often used in MBA programs. When I took my MBA in aviation that idea is one concept what works well in Europe, close in the United States, but has failed every time in Canada ... and that is, if you want to carry a passenger from YYZ to YVR, then carry them from YYZ to YVR! Don't even try Toronto/west (YHM) to Vancouver/east (YXX) .. it has failed every time. Canadians just wont go for it. (My MBA was Canada-centric as it was attended in Montreal).

I remember when WS moved from YHM to YYZ. They said it was due to constraints at YHM, and that they were targetting SG in YYZ. But their year end results showed the huge gain in yield with the move. That is where the money is, even at the lowest fare!
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yyz717
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:05 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 98):
if they are really looking at YVR to YYZ, then it is the same consumer, and hiding in YXX or YHM isn't going to help them, as the customer wont even know they exist.

They are starting out with very low fares, and very low frequencies (2x per week in most markets), and a novel approach of outsourcing their fleet requirements. They also only need a v tiny portion of YVR and YYZ traffic to make YXX-YWG-YHM successful (ie. profitable).

If the fares are low enough to ensure good loads, they can be successful.

WS has proven the viability of YXX and YHM (albeit not as hubs, but for point-point service) so there is certainly room for a well-managed low cost competitor to join in.
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