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rampbro
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:34 pm

If these guys are trying to market to the very-price-conscious part of the market, or those who haven't travelled before, how exactly is it a good idea not to list on expdia/kayak/etc.? The only way those people are going to hear about this airline are horror stories about the comfort, ancillary charges, and the fact that you spent as much time on transit getting to and from your flight as you did on the plane.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:06 pm

I do not understand Canadians who are screaming for fair fares and more competition and at the same time trolling this newcomer. Otherwise a guy called Gabor Lukacs popped-up a couple of days ago appointing himself as a passengers advocate and been mediatized here and there... What's coherent and worth hearing from what he is saying?!

http://globalnews.ca/news/2437629/av...-airline-passenger-advocate-warns/
 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:25 pm

I am all for this new entrant and I wish them luck.
Statistically speaking, they will likely fail, but its anyone's game.
If those fares are around $89 dollars per seat, they need high loads, because of the taxes, fees, nav canada fees, etc. In the end that $89 dollar ticket (taxes in) is more like $10 dollars profit (if that).
What do you guys think they got those aircraft for hourly? $3500-$4000?
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:20 pm

Quoting Q120 (Reply 102):

You mean how much is the block hour for the Flair B737s? It should be around 2.5KUSD
 
diverted
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:52 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 101):
Otherwise a guy called Gabor Lukacs popped-up a couple of days ago appointing himself as a passengers advocate and been mediatized here and there... What's coherent and worth hearing from what he is saying?!

Oh Gabor. This guys been around for years as a "passenger rights activist" who gets off on going thru contracts of carriage and throwing a stink.
 
fly_yhm
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:35 am

for the record I think this will be successful. as far at WestJet at YHM and why they left. mostly for greed reasons and the YHM
terminal couldn't keep up. as far as loads they were great almost always full. I works as a co-op student there during their
peak presence as I say loads were excellent however they were offered an opportunity at YYZ and took it the GTAA had a huge
void left once Canadian was bought out basically all of Terminal 3 What would you have done if you were the GTAA or Westjet.
Had Canadian still been around they would still be based at YHM.


There isn't much reason why YHM shouldn't been more successful Chicago has Midway which are only 50kms apart vs 80 for YHM to YYZ

NYC has 3 airport yes I know its a must large population.

Washington has IAD and BWI which are only 93kms

Los Angeles area has LAX SNA and LGB

London has LHR LGA and STA

Biggest problem at YHM is the Airport Authority they don't want to truly invest in the airport. I also think they should market
it its name in include Niagara Falls and Toronto.

Anyway that's my two sense and I'm sure I'm going to hear how I can compare with these other cities etc etc.

Also you have all mentioned Jets go several times. They failed because of YYZ ops. Its one of the most expensive airport in the world.
your not going to successfully run a Low Cost Carrier from that airport. Part of the reason Westjet has strayed from cheap flights they probably
some deals from GTAA for the first 5 years then got onto a level playing field.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
threepoint
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:30 am

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 105):
Washington has IAD and BWI which are only 93kms

Don't forget DCA, which forms the third point of the triangle and is the closest airport to DC proper.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
ytz
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:32 pm

The only way we could have gotten competition that sort of moved prices was if YTZ expanded and Porter was effective in stealing some high value clients on routes like YYZ-YVR. Barring that, the only way to get competition on long-haul domestic is to have a well capitalized competitor who is willing to go toe to toe with AC/WS using secondary airports.

Toe-to-toe means daily flights minimum and services setup (like buses) to feed pax to those airports. Newleaf will struggle, since they don't seem to have any of this in place.
 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:37 pm

Quoting IOR" class="quote" target="_blank">TS-IOR (Reply 103):
It should be around 2.5KUSD

So lets say $3500 Canadian per hour as per TS-IOR.
So will say YHM - YHZ - roughly costs $5600-$6000 ACMI (which I find pretty cheap)
I believe Flair (the operator) absorbs the landing fees, parking fees and terminal access fees.

Air Transportation Charges
SALE - X $32.49
Air Transport Charge $23.00 (Fuel, Nav Canada fees)
Taxes, Fees and Other Charges
Reservation Fee $0.00
YHM Arpt Improve Fee $25.00
Security Charge ATSC $7.12
Taxes $11.39
Total to be applied to Credit Card: $99.00

Our revenue per ticket after taxes and fees, $32.49.
According to Flair their aircraft economy configuration is 158 seats.
Lets say 50% load factor, were looking at $2566.71 net for this flight.
We have yet to include ground handling costs.

  
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:00 am

Quoting Q120 (Reply 108):

But YHM-YHX is now selling at 141.39CAD for the inaugural flight, so it's being yielded and airline business is being done. Saskatoon-Abbotsford in now at 193.33CAD and this is the bare fare (sorry Spirit for the plagiat)  
 
threepoint
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:11 am

Quoting Q120 (Reply 108):

I don't think your calculations are all that inclusive nor accurate. For instance, you state that:

Quoting Q120 (Reply 108):
I believe Flair (the operator) absorbs the landing fees, parking fees and terminal access fees.

I wonder who you suppose Flair will pass these costs to?
Safe to say: a lot of bean counters have done the math and believe that the fares they offer will yield a profit after expenses...assuming they achieve the consistent minimum load factors they require.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:44 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 109):
But YHM-YHX is now selling at 141.39CAD for the inaugural flight, so it's being yielded and airline business is being done.

You are correct, I see now that the prices shortly after launch are $141.39.

Air Transportation Charges
PROMO G 70.00
Air Transport Charge 23.00
Taxes, Fees and Other Charges
Reservation Fee 0.00
YHM Arpt Improve Fee 25.00
Security Charge ATSC 7.12
Taxes 16.27
Total to be applied to Credit Card: 141.39

So now its $70.00 revenue per ticket. I wonder how high the prices will go.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 110):
I wonder who you suppose Flair will pass these costs to?

My previous employer used Flair (like I said before I audited this company) and my current employer is a competitor, in charter operations the airlines ACMI costs include the landing fees, parking fees and terminal access fees - so "absorb" was not the right word, ill say, already included in price.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
Steelhead
Posts: 283
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:02 pm

Don't forget the luggage fee and turnover generated by on-board sales.

Looks like the first Flair Air B-737-400 for NewLeaf will be C-FLER - entered the KF facility at YHM on Jan. 8th., 2016:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhe...ec1hiv-8QUWfn-8QY2uC-8L4ZbT-8QY25w
 
Noise
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:23 pm

 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:47 pm

Quoting Steelhead (Reply 112):

Don't forget the luggage fee and turnover generated by on-board sales.

Absolutely, the ancillary fees is going to be the revenue generator for them.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting Q120 (Reply 111):
So now its $70.00 revenue per ticket. I wonder how high the prices will go.

Would that not depend on how many seats they sell? The $89 "introductory" fare is only for X number of seats on any given flight.

Which in itself is another concept Canadians have a problem understanding, only so many seats are sold at discount prices - if they can't get a seat for that price on the flight they want for the day they want between two cities they want, then that airline is now a "rip off". Yet if they book one or two days earlier/later, they can still get the discounted fare LOL!
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q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:01 pm

I did a fare compare to get an idea of how much cheaper the tickets really are.

NewLeaf vs Air Canada / WestJet - YHM/YYZ - YWG - same dates

NewLeaf - $203.55
Air Canada - $533.90
Westjet - $448.02

Overall, very good.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:05 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 115):
Would that not depend on how many seats they sell? The $89 "introductory" fare is only for X number of seats on any given flight.

Yeah exactly, with time we will see just how high they are willing to go. They are trying to build their product awareness right now "cheap cheap cheap".

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 115):
Which in itself is another concept Canadians have a problem understanding, only so many seats are sold at discount prices

Exactly. Its like Jetsgos $1 fares.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
CYQL
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:14 pm

Could YQF handle 734 ops?

It could operate as Edmonton South or Calgary North.

What airports in Alberta other than YYC, YEG, YQF, YQL, YMM and YQU could support 737 ops.

As much as I would like to see YQL pick up some flights, YQF is in the right location.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:30 pm

Quoting Q120 (Reply 116):

NewLeaf vs Air Canada / WestJet - YHM/YYZ - YWG - same dates

Yes, but what date?

Quoting Q120 (Reply 116):
NewLeaf - $203.55
Air Canada - $533.90
Westjet - $448.02

The normal AC fare YYZ-YWG is $225.00, taxes in. There were a couple flights with $94 fares, taxes in!

I noticed WS offering virtually the same fares as AC, including the $94 one.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:39 pm

Quoting Q120 (Reply 116):
I did a fare compare to get an idea of how much cheaper the tickets really are.

NewLeaf vs Air Canada / WestJet - YHM/YYZ - YWG - same dates

NewLeaf - $203.55
Air Canada - $533.90
Westjet - $448.02

Overall, very good.

Yet, you can get a much cheaper fare on WS or AC if you are more flexible with dates - and if one truly wants to be frugal with travelling, being flexible is key.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
georgiabill
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:41 pm

If their concept is successful what are their options for securing additional aircraft in a timely manner? To operate their own aircraft they would have to have their own operating certificate, hire and train pilots and support staff( dispatch engineering etc) which would require time. How many aircraft can they source from Flair Air without impacting their existing contracts?
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:54 pm

Quoting georgiabill (Reply 121):

If their concept is successful what are their options for securing additional aircraft in a timely manner? To operate their own aircraft they would have to have their own operating certificate, hire and train pilots and support staff( dispatch engineering etc) which would require time. How many aircraft can they source from Flair Air without impacting their existing contracts?

Well seeing as they are essentially operating as a glorified charter travel agency, this would take years. They are not licensed, have no operating certificate or insurance to run an airline. All they are doing is selling tickets and contracting the ground handling.
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georgiabill
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:24 am

Perhaps I did not word my question correctly. If successful on their venture how do they add additional aircraft to meet demand and growth/ Multiple ACMI contracts? As noted it would take yars to get their own AOC.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:15 am

Flair most probably, and preferably, will source another bunch of aircrafts for itself and put it at NewLeaf service... like charter airlines were doing with TOs for years. Kind of.
 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:29 pm

[quote=longhauler,reply=119]The normal AC fare YYZ-YWG is $225.00, taxes in. There were a couple flights with $94 fares, taxes in!

I sampled a few more dates, The cheapest fares per airline:

April 9 returning April 13.

NewLeaf - No availability yet.
Air Canada - $132 (evening departure)
WestJet - $185 (morning departure)

So the fares are pretty good overall.

Now the thing that drives me crazy....AC for example..

YOW - YYZ - 364km - $191 (cheapest fare - roundtrip)
YYZ - YWG - 1507km - $132 (cheapest fare - roundtrip)
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
Noise
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:36 pm

Concerns raised about operating licence for new discount airline

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/conce...for-new-discount-airline-1.2738600
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:40 pm

Quoting Q120 (Reply 125):
YOW - YYZ - 364km - $191 (cheapest fare - roundtrip)

It is one of the quirks of advanced yield management, and airlines that use it. Fares have very little to do with distance, and everything to do with what marketing has decided they should be! You only have to look at Ontario before WS Encore and PD entered ... it was more expensive to fly to YTS than LHR!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
q120
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:58 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 127):
Fares have very little to do with distance, and everything to do with what marketing has decided they should be! You only have to look at Ontario before WS Encore and PD entered ... it was more expensive to fly to YTS than LHR!

Nuts. Its like flying to YFB - one-way - same cost as an all inclusive round-trip south or a round-trip cost to Europe and back. Its currently $1313 (on sale) - $1698 flex ticket. Thank goodness for Zed Fares.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:17 pm

Canadians have been blaming Americans for conservatism, but it's becoming evident that the inverse is true, at least as far as aviation and air travel are concerned. I see trollers everywhere, and see shouts and screams on ridiculously unaffordable fares everywhere as well. Glad it's not coming from Quebec this time!
 
CYQL
Posts: 81
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:24 pm

CBC has a good article on the reaction to new competition.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/budg...rlines-industry-reaction-1.3403446
 
diverted
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:00 pm

Quoting Q120 (Reply 128):
Nuts. Its like flying to YFB - one-way - same cost as an all inclusive round-trip south or a round-trip cost to Europe and back. Its currently $1313 (on sale) - $1698 flex ticket. Thank goodness for Zed Fares.

Try pricing a ticket YOW-YRB or something similar.....$3815 for JAN 23. Now, while it's not my place to say whether or not that's reasonable, keep in mind that jet fuel in a lot of those places comes by sea lift once a year, and any additional has to be flown in. A lot of routes aren't very popular, with maybe a handful of pax, but full of cargo. Still have to have an FA, even if there's only 2 pax. Then there's all the other stuff-food is more expensive, IROPS are more frequent due to the weather and lack of infrastructure. Diversion airports can be hundreds of km apart. It's an entirely different world than the flying you see in the rest of the country.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 115):
Which in itself is another concept Canadians have a problem understanding, only so many seats are sold at discount prices - if they can't get a seat for that price on the flight they want for the day they want between two cities they want, then that airline is now a "rip off". Yet if they book one or two days earlier/later, they can still get the discounted fare LOL!

That was one of my biggest pet peeves...people showing up saying they saw a seat sale for $89 and how we must be liars because they tried booking 4 days out and could only find a $500+ fare bucket...supply and demand people...
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:13 pm

Not off to a good start, they've suspended sales and refunding money as the Canadian Transportation Agency reviews licensing regulation for Indirect Air Service Providers ...

http://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/156447/NewLeaf-grounded
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2206
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RE: Canadian Ulcc NewLeaf To Unveil Routes And Prices

Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:17 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 132):

CTA provided an exemption initially. Now they're reneging - evidently under pressure from AC or WS.

Pity for the consumer, but a big win for the complainant(s). Heaven forbid the self-proclaimed national champion should face any more competition.

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