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KarelXWB
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LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:14 am

According to latest fleet information LH adopts the Space Flex cabin option to add 12 additional seats to the A320 fleet. Seating capacity will be increased from 168 to 180. To first aircraft to feature the larger cabin will be D-AINA (= first A320neo).

No further info about seat pitch has been given.

Source
http://tinyurl.com/jzlnc35

[Edited 2016-01-06 03:26:05]
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EPA001
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:24 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
LH will adopt the Space Flex cabin option

It seems that this option is quite attractive for the A320 customers.  
 
321neo
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:26 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Seating capacity will be increased from 168 to 180

Meanwhile FR is installing new seating with increased legroom and the Boeing Sky Interior on all new deliveries!
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:28 am

Quoting 321neo (Reply 2):
Meanwhile FR is installing new seating with increased legroom and the Boeing Sky Interior on all new deliveries!

But then the 737 MAX-200 will have less legroom again.
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321neo
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:42 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
But then the 737 MAX-200 will have less legroom again.


True, but there's still 150+ 738s being delivered in the meantime...a lot more than the no. of A320s LH has on order.

[Edited 2016-01-06 03:47:14]
 
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nighthawk
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:24 pm

Quoting 321neo (Reply 2):
Meanwhile FR is installing new seating with increased legroom and the Boeing Sky Interior on all new deliveries!

is that not due to the 738 already being at certified capacity, rather than any attempt by ryanair to be nice to its passengers?
 
r2rho
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:35 pm

Yikes. Yet another legacy jumping on this wagon. 180 seats is the current Vueling or Wizz configuration, and by experience it is one to avoid. It looks like 180-186 is to become the standard on the A320 in Europe, regardless of legacy or LCC...

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
LH adopts the Space Flex cabin option to add 12 additional seats to the A320 fleet.

SpaceFlex does not add 12 seats, but 3 or 6. Which means the rest will come at the expense of seat pitch. Now the question is how it will be achieved - similar 29-30" pitch throughout the aircraft, or will "business" class get a luxurious 30-31" while the back X rows are crunched to 28-29" ?

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
It seems that this option is quite attractive for the A320 customers.

For the airline finance departments, yes. Cabin crew and pax seem to think otherwise:
https://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/08/16/airline-reveals-its-concerns-about-new-airbus-lavatorygalley-option/
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:52 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):

is that not due to the 738 already being at certified capacity, rather than any attempt by ryanair to be nice to its passengers?

Surely if it was not possible to add any more capacity then there was minimal financial incentive in changing the seats...yet they did. FR now has better legroom than LH, U2, BA (even with their current generation interior there is more legroom than on BA A319s !)... Check out their 'Always Getting Better' campaign; they've been making a number of improvements to their customer experience in order to win more customers.

[Edited 2016-01-06 04:55:48]
 
Someone83
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:04 pm

To compare, SAS plans 174 seats on their NEO. One more row vs today, but one less vs Lufthansa
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:14 pm

Didn't expect this! Makes me wonder what the whole point of a legacy airline will be if the serviceand legroom continues to go down.
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nighthawk
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:40 pm

Quoting 321neo (Reply 7):
Surely if it was not possible to add any more capacity then there was minimal financial incentive in changing the seats...yet they did

the new seats are lighter...
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:00 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 9):
Didn't expect this! Makes me wonder what the whole point of a legacy airline will be if the serviceand legroom continues to go down.

Network - the moment you don´t have a strong P2P-route you´ll have to connect via a hub, and that´s something only legacies operate, no LCCs.

And why is there a need for a legacy to offer better seat pitch, if the reason to exist more and more comes down to connectivity? Thus the move to add seats is straight forward a revenue improvement exercice.
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:19 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 11):
And why is there a need for a legacy to offer better seat pitch

I agree. I suggest that most people don't pay more to fly on the "legacy", so why would the experience be any different?

It is funny, really, that when Lufthansa is compared with U2 or EK they are always told to "compete". So now they do compete and it is still not right.

That leads me to the conclusion, that the whole "legacy vs. LCC" talk is totally overrated and does not reflect the real world anymore. At least not in Europe.

Good job, LH, use your assets as you feel is best.
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catiii
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:24 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
It seems that this option is quite attractive for the A320 customers.  

The SpaceFlex v2 product is a good one from the standpoint of giving carriers LOPA flexibility, but also for potential resale of the aircraft down the line. It's a heavy component, but as noted by another poster you make up for it in the lighter slimline seats so it (usually) nets out as a zero weight wise.

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 9):
Didn't expect this! Makes me wonder what the whole point of a legacy airline will be if the serviceand legroom continues to go down.

Who says service is declining?
 
GT4EZY
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:27 pm

It's important to remember that spaceflex generally makes greater use of space that is otherwise not used by passenger seating....or at all. With LH's current layout they can theoretically fit 12 seats (two rows) in the space where the toilets currently are.

People seem to automatically think LCC when it comes to spaceflex but these days, legacy/full service carriers need very little galley space with the service offered on most A320 missions, certainly in Europe and the U.S.
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:51 pm

Quoting 321neo (Reply 7):
Check out their 'Always Getting Better' campaign; they've been making a number of improvements to their customer experience in order to win more customers.

Its not working that well then judging by the myriad of negative comments I read on a post about FR's new cabin on Facebook the other day.

I've never seen such vitriol for other airlines.
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:10 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):

Quoting 321neo (Reply 7):
Surely if it was not possible to add any more capacity then there was minimal financial incentive in changing the seats...yet they did

the new seats are lighter...

Yes, the seats are lighter. But the cost savings from lighter weight on an aircraft like a B738 is small in comparison to the potential revenue gain which lies in the addition of an extra row of 6 seats.
 
konrad
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:31 pm

LH goes to LCC seating: 180 pax on a 320 with plank thin and plank hard seats described with an Italian sounding name. That is why for my next FRA WAW flight I am booked on a vintage LOT 734 featuring 147 of those thick, padded, 90s vintage seats.
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:46 pm

I just had an experience flying BA LHR-TXL and IB (actually I2) TXL-MAD, both on A320's with the new type seating; and it is miserable. 30"of pitch (and I was in Business Class) is terrible.
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 18):
30"of pitch (and I was in Business Class) is terrible.

31" pitch in the new FR configuration. How the tables have turned!
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:58 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 18):
I just had an experience flying BA LHR-TXL and IB (actually I2) TXL-MAD, both on A320's with the new type seating; and it is miserable. 30"of pitch (and I was in Business Class) is terrible.

BA doesn't have Business on their 320s to my knowledge. Club Europe is the standard 30" pitch with the middle seat blocked off, and they have an alternate with 31" throughout.
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:01 pm

Quoting hibtastic (Reply 15):

Its not working that well then judging by the myriad of negative comments I read on a post about FR's new cabin on Facebook the other day.

I've never seen such vitriol for other airlines.

When an airline is evil enough to even *consider* charging for using the toilet, they deserve the vitriol. There's a fine line between capitalism and basically boiling the frog.

I fly in excess of 120,000 miles a year, and proud to say I never gave a single penny to Ryanair or Spirit.
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:05 pm

The service gap between the legacy carriers and the LCCs has been narrowing for quite some time and will continue to narrow. Previous assumptions such as "short-haul routes exist solely to feed the long-haul network" are now under more scrutiny than ever before. There is increasing pressure on Airline Execs to maximise margins across the entire network (short-haul as well as long-haul), and in this context, it is in no way surprising to see the legacies adopt the tactics that were spearheaded by the LCCs many years ago.

I suspect the days of receiving so-called "complimentary" drinks and snacks onboard a legacy carrier are also numbered. The temptation to maximise ancillary revenue in the air will eventually prove too hard to resist. All it takes is for one of the large Euro legacies (BA, AF, LH) to make the move, and the rest will quickly follow...all in the name of "revenue optimisation".

[Edited 2016-01-06 11:08:38]
 
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kasimir
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:12 pm

Why is LH doing this?

Is management deliberately trying to ruin their company and brand? Why?? Just to get a bit better bottomline?

Is it really necessary to cram 12 extra seats, while oil prices are only a third of what they have been 1-2 years ago and the NEO's should be cheaper to operate anyway?

Are the domestic european flights always jam packed to the last seat that it makes sense to cram in the extra seats to create misery for everybody onboard, including in "business" class? And if thats the case, why not order and fly more A321 ceo/neo on those busy routes?

LH used to be among the EU carriers a 5 star airline, but they are increasingly heading into the same direction the major US airlines have been 10-15 years ago!
The funny thing is that I see a change of mentality with the major US airlines, getting newer/better planes, nicer seats in all classes, slowly better service and other amenities that used to be impossible to think of like free wifi.

Maybe its time that Europe gets a Jetblue/Virgin America kind of domestic airline that offers superior domestic service in all classes at competitive pricing.

As a LH customer I would be FURIOUS, especially looking at the background of lower fuel costs these days...
 
GT4EZY
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:59 pm

Read up on space flex guys. Those 12 extra seats can be accommodated in the area currently occupied by the two rear toilets. Why get so upset? Any major loss of space on board is done so at the detriment to the galley.
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:03 pm

Quoting kasimir (Reply 23):
The funny thing is that I see a change of mentality with the major US airlines, getting newer/better planes, nicer seats in all classes, slowly better service and other amenities that used to be impossible to think of like free wifi.

Don't forget the high fares and market monopolies which enable the US3 to pay for all those nice things.
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:03 pm

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 24):
Those 12 extra seats can be accommodated in the area currently occupied by the two rear toilets. Why get so upset?

How about jamming more pax while having a much worse pax-to-bathroom ratio ?

I've been inside one of those so called "modern flex" bathrooms on the 739 ... my goodness it's painfully small. If this is what "innovation" looks like then color me unimpressed.
 
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:18 pm

Quoting 321neo (Reply 25):
Don't forget the high fares and market monopolies which enable the US3 to pay for all those nice things.

But there is a healthy competition on the US domestic market... Jetblue for example offers 32-34" in coach at very competitive prices and great service. In europe there is no Jetblue! You either fly the tight legacy carriers or the tight LCCs, not many alternatives!

It also seems that people in the US are willing to pay a little extra for better quality and more comfort, looking at the pax numbers it didn't hurt the airlines either.
I don't believe that Europeans would fly less if LH would charge a little extra for increased comfort, but again why do they even need to charge extra for "comfort" or put more seats in a plane when their fuel bill has drastically declined in the past 2 years?
I would expect quite the opposite to be honest...
 
Rara
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:18 pm

Can't remember when I've last been to the loo on a short-haul flight.

[Edited 2016-01-06 15:18:28]
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eurowings
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:28 pm

LH will do what is right for the European market which is fundamentally different to the US one, at the moment LH's short-haul fleet is already quite densely configured with basic slimline seats. The vast majority of LH's short-haul flights are under two hours gate-to-gate; the type of sectors that might see widespread use of CRJs in the US.

The European market is different not only because of the shorter distances but also because air competes with rail (including high-speed services) and a growing network of intercity bus/coach services. If you want a more luxurious travel experience in Europe with lots of space and catering look at the first class sections of high-speed trains such as the ICE, Thalys, Eurostar, TGV, RailJet etc; the time spent onboard is greater but the total journey duration may be equal or less when compared to flying.

Budget travellers can now cross the continent on a Megabus; after spending 14 hours on one of them LH or FR will seem like total luxury. 



[Edited 2016-01-06 15:43:37]
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flyboy_se
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:34 pm

LX has already reconfigured some 320 with this config.
The toilets in the back are removed and one toilet is put in the galley, while halving the galley space. The last row is painful as the seats dont recline and there is no window. Really horrible experience. Appart from the last row there was no huge difference
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kasimir
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting eurowings (Reply 29):
If you want a more luxurious travel experience in Europe with lots of space and catering look at the first class sections of high-speed trains such as the ICE, Thalys, Eurostar, TGV, RailJet etc; the time spent onboard is greater but the total journey duration may be equal or less.

You are completely right if you are talking about Germany domestic and I prefer train, but most of the time I rather take a nice rental car over flying within Germany!

But I'm referring to domestic European flights! Flying for example FRA-MAD or MUC-OSL can only be efficiently done by plane and there rail or car is no real alternative. On that flight I will also be stuck for around 2 hours in that tight slimline seat with poor onboard service. So where is my alternative?
 
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eurowings
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:04 am

Quoting kasimir (Reply 31):

But I'm referring to domestic European flights! Flying for example FRA-MAD or MUC-OSL can only be efficiently done by plane and there rail or car is no real alternative. On that flight I will also be stuck for around 2 hours in that tight slimline seat with poor onboard service. So where is my alternative?

There isn't one, simply because the airlines such as LH (or LX or whoever) believe that most customers are not concerned about it on short flights and they know for certain that there is a lack of alternatives.

However, you could also be right that there is room for a more premium airline in the European market; that's how many business ideas are formed - people spotting gaps in the market and exploiting their potential. It's a shame the barriers to entry in the airline sector are so high.

I might however add that you can fly on a LAN 787 on their fifth freedom route FRA-MAD with a long-haul business class cabin  .
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eurowings
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:10 am

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 24):
Read up on space flex guys. Those 12 extra seats can be accommodated in the area currently occupied by the two rear toilets. Why get so upset? Any major loss of space on board is done so at the detriment to the galley.

Does U2's current fleet have spaceflex on the A320s? If so, I've found that configuration absolutely fine.
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ua900
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:17 am

Quoting kasimir (Reply 23):
Why is LH doing this? Is management deliberately trying to ruin their company and brand? Why?? Just to get a bit better bottomline?

LH has a split personality, on the long haul side trying focus on F/C and even Y+ customers but on the short haul side more EW. Doesn't have much room for remaining short haul LH 320s, they seem to go more into the direction of EW than towards 5 star.

When I fly with them short haul C on TXL-FRA connecting to F their service is extremely forthcoming but a bit apologetic given the many limitations onboard a 321/320. When I find myself in short haul Y it's just the chocolate bar or whatever plus a coffee and then they're gone, I'm invisible to them in that cabin, that's how LCC people must feel all the time. No wonder their brand suffers among people who primarily fly them within the EU.

Quoting kasimir (Reply 23):
LH used to be among the EU carriers a 5 star airline, but they are increasingly heading into the same direction the major US airlines have been 10-15 years ago!

No, LH is *aspiring to become* a 5 star airline. Big difference and to your point they don't always move in that direction, e.g. they are expanding EW flying and continue on with the inferior EuroBusiness hard product. On the flipside, they have introduced a true Y+ product that along with int'l F is still far ahead of U.S. carriers at present.

Quoting kasimir (Reply 23):
Are the domestic european flights always jam packed to the last seat that it makes sense to cram in the extra seats to create misery for everybody onboard, including in "business" class?

My LH A320 C cabin flights were pretty empty last year. I moved around to the exit row with my 5 year old after takeoff and we both had one side of the plane. Maybe 5 pax in the C cabin on average. If they want more usable seats on the A320 just move the curtain  
Quoting kasimir (Reply 23):
Maybe its time that Europe gets a Jetblue/Virgin America kind of domestic airline that offers superior domestic service in all classes at competitive pricing.

In Europe it's not going to be "domestic"   but one can argue that it's already got that in the form of TK and increasingly the baby EY's (particular JU when it comes to short haul C)
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a320fan
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:32 am

I don't know what all the furore is about 180 on an A320 is perfectly fine. Flew JQ in such a configuration twice last month and I could pretty much stretch my legs straight out in front of me under the seat in front. I'm a tad over 180cm as well. For the length of flight these aircraft are flying, there is nothing wrong with such a configuration. People just like to complain. The so called legacy a are going to have to differentiate in different ways than some of you are expecting. In fact it probably makes the most business sense to just offer an FR or U2 like product and differentiate on the fact you can connect seamlessly, the euro business which is just an economy seat with extra perks, lounge availability and use of the big city airports.
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Viscount724
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:50 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 20):
BA doesn't have Business on their 320s to my knowledge. Club Europe is the standard 30" pitch with the middle seat blocked off, and they have an alternate with 31" throughout.

Club Europe is BA's marketing name for their European business class product, now one of the worst with the same cramped seat pitch as Y class. KLM's is much better as the forward rows on their European fleet have 2 or 3 more inches of pitch, and even Y is 31 inches.
 
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kasimir
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:02 am

Quoting eurowings (Reply 32):
I might however add that you can fly on a LAN 787 on their fifth freedom route FRA-MAD with a long-haul business class cabin  .

LOL ... Forgot about the LAN flight  
Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
On the flipside, they have introduced a true Y+ product that along with int'l F is still far ahead of U.S. carriers at present.

On this part I totally agree with you that their longhaul hard- and soft product is a difference between night and day compared to their narrowbody offering. But still, having a crappy domestic product cannot be beneficial to the overall brand value of Lufthansa.

But lets not forget that Lufthansa a couple of years ago has decided to fly more routes in the 3-4 hour range like FRA-TLV or FRA-DME with narrow-body aircraft (A320/321) that has the same tight configuration. Here LH could learn from AA, that has recently introduced their A320/321 with more comfort and a full F and C class for their longer domestic flights and their customers LOVE it.

Even though we laughed about the US carriers in the past, but recently they have made a lot of right decisions and are slowly closing the gap with the Euro legacy carriers.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
If they want more usable seats on the A320 just move the curtain  

Exactly my point, why introduce this flexible domestic C class if they rarely use it and rather put more seats in the back. The couple of times that I flew domestic LH in past 3 years, I also had the experience that Y was 70-90% full and C was maybe 10-40% full.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
In Europe it's not going to be "domestic"   but one can argue that it's already got that in the form of TK and increasingly the baby EY's (particular JU when it comes to short haul C)

I'm not sure, but wasn't there a ruling that EU carriers can operate from any EU airport to any other EU airport. For example LH could operate CDG-MAD or not? Its what Ryanair does or am I forgetting something?

I'm asking, because why would I want to fly TK if I need to connect in Turkey which most of the times is a big detour, there must be a big opportunity for a "premium" domestic Euro LCC carrier in the market a la B6.
 
Viscount724
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:39 am

Quoting kasimir (Reply 37):
I'm not sure, but wasn't there a ruling that EU carriers can operate from any EU airport to any other EU airport. For example LH could operate CDG-MAD or not? Its what Ryanair does or am I forgetting something?

Yes, the EU is a single market. Any EU-based airline can operate anywhere within the EU, including domestic routes in other EU countries.

Quoting kasimir (Reply 37):
there must be a big opportunity for a "premium" domestic Euro LCC carrier in the market a la B6.

If there was a market and if it could be operated profitably, somebody would already be doing it. In Europe, business passengers value schedule and frequency over inflight service. They're not willing to pay higher fares to cover the costs of the premium type of product you're talking about on flights of 1 or 2 hours. Demand varies too much from day to day and by time of day to permit efficient use of a fleet of aircraft with that type of configuration.

I'm willing to bet that B6's average flight distance is much greater than for carriers with European networks.
 
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eurowings
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting kasimir (Reply 37):

I'm not sure, but wasn't there a ruling that EU carriers can operate from any EU airport to any other EU airport. For example LH could operate CDG-MAD or not? Its what Ryanair does or am I forgetting something?

Yes, any EU/EEA carrier can fly any route within the EU/EEA. This right is used by a lot of the big LCCs, for example Vueling is legally a Spanish carrier but has bases in Italy and flies from Italy to Germany for instance. However, while routes between different EU/EEA countries may appear to have all the characteristics of 'domestic' flights, legally they are 'international'.



Quoting kasimir (Reply 37):
there must be a big opportunity for a "premium" domestic Euro LCC carrier in the market a la B6.

It is an interesting idea, but I'm struggling to imagine a route network that would work. Access to big 'premium' markets like FRA and LHR is restricted due to availability of slots.

Norwegian is perhaps the closest the European market has to a 'premium' LCC - nice new Sky Interior 738s with free WiFI and entertainment streaming, also with connections sold.

[Edited 2016-01-06 18:10:28]
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kdhurst380
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:52 am

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
If there was a market and if it could be operated profitably, somebody would already be doing it. In Europe, business passengers value schedule and frequency over inflight service. They're not willing to pay higher fares to cover the costs of the premium type of product you're talking about on flights of 1 or 2 hours. Demand varies too much from day to day and by time of day to permit efficient use of a fleet of aircraft with that type of configuration.

I'm willing to bet that B6's average flight distance is much greater than for carriers with European networks.

It simply wouldn't pay, as you say. BA in particular can adjust the curtain position to provide anything from 3 to 12 rows Club Europe on an A320, and just as easily turn the aircraft into all economy to operate UK Domestic routes.

The nearest thing they have to a 'proper' business class on a narrowbody is the inherited BMI Midhaul A321 fleet, which at the front is sold as Club World and deployed on the oil routes which are very premium heavy, even the economy seats have personal IFE.

The fact remains that the longest European sector is around 4 hours, which in the grand scheme of things isn't that long. I think its easy on the other side of the pond to look at business class as just being what you get onboard, when in actual fact its the overall product that puts it ahead of economy (Dedicated check-in, fast track security, lounge access, priority boarding etc).
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:03 am

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 14):
With LH's current layout they can theoretically fit 12 seats (two rows) in the space where the toilets currently are.
Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 24):
Read up on space flex guys. Those 12 extra seats can be accommodated in the area currently occupied by the two rear toilets

Sorry, but that is wrong. See my post above. SpaceFlex adds up to 6 seats - one row. LH is gaining the other 6 seats by packing the rest tighter together. Note that reducing legroom is also the only option, as the LH shorthaul fleet is already equipped with razor-thin slimline seats, so there is nothing to be gained from there.
 
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CARST
Posts: 1546
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:24 am

The race to the bottom continues. This is the worst decision LH has probably made in years. Same as BA did a while ago.

Why are European airlines so stupid? I don't get it. Of course there is a market for such seating (read: low cost, low prices), the LCCs showed all major airlines the way to go, but there isn't only one market. That is the point all the major airlines are missing.

Why is there no Y+ / MCE / PE on short-haul planes in Europe? I guess everyone / a lot of people shelling out the money for the more expensive fares (not HBO / hand baggage only) would also pay for 2-4 inches of extra legroom. But not double or tripple the price of Y like the airlines are asking for business class. Crap airlines...

You can say what you want about service levels on US airlines, but these airlines at least know that the marget has more than one segment (or two if you include business / first).
 
Andy33
Posts: 2450
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:47 am

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 40):
The nearest thing they have to a 'proper' business class on a narrowbody is the inherited BMI Midhaul A321 fleet, which at the front is sold as Club World and deployed on the oil routes which are very premium heavy, even the economy seats have personal IFE.

But the Midhaul A321s have true longhaul lie-flat seats in the Club World section (same design that LX uses - because they were ordered by bmi during the period they were a Lufthansa Group subsidiary). The Mid-haul tag that BA themselves apply is down to the aircraft range not the onboard hard or soft product. However they don't seem to be that successful with BA (bmi never actually got round to fitting the new seats and left them lying in a hangar until BA took them over) and the rumour is that 2 of the 7 Mid-haul A321s will be reconfigured to standard shorthaul configuration this year, with the remainder following suit in 2018. How accurate this rumour is, only time will tell.
 
xXMHxLHx5LXx
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:17 am

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:08 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 41):
LH is gaining the other 6 seats by packing the rest tighter together.

Where do you get that Info from?
I think they will remove the closets they have installed between the doors and the first row.
It could look like the entrance area e.g. Adria Airways has on their A319
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seahawk
Posts: 8622
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RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:26 am

Do we even know those NEOs will go to mainline LH and not to Eurowings?
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2351
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:31 am

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 30):
LX has already reconfigured some 320 with this config.
The toilets in the back are removed and one toilet is put in the galley, while halving the galley space

So, LX and LH will only have 2 lavs for 180 pax on their A320s then? If they only fly short flights - fine, but four-hour flights with one lav dedicated to 10 biz class pax and one lav for 150 unwashed sounds like a recipe for inflight aggression.

Most Europeans are cheapskates and are only interested in the lowest price possible (hence the success of FR, EZY, DY etc) yet expect champagne and caviar and great legroom included in the price. But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Business travel is very cyclical, when times are good everyone flies up front, when companies start slashing costs, premium travel plummets. Cheap flights, however, sell like hotcakes when times are good and bad and in between, so I fully understand that legacy carriers in Europe are going for fully-flexible cabins where C class offers a little extra elbow room and better catering. An empty middle seat does make a difference, more so than an extra two inches of legroom, me thinks.
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LTH
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:49 pm

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:43 am

German article only as of yet: http://www.aero.de/news-23207/Luftha...-A320neo-kommt-mit-180-Sitzen.html

LH confirmed that their neos will have CY180 seating instead of CY168 because of new lavatories and galleys etc as already mentioned above.


LTH
 
xXMHxLHx5LXx
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:17 am

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:54 am

Quoting LTH (Reply 47):
German article only as of yet: http://www.aero.de/news-23207/Luftha...-A320neo-kommt-mit-180-Sitzen.html

It's an interesting read.
It states that modifications in the rear AND forward galley/lavatories will make up for the 12 seats. It also states that Business Class will have greater legroom than economy class. Sounds a bit like the 4U concept. At least offering in the first few rows more legroom.
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debonair
Posts: 3497
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

RE: LH To Increase A320 Capacity

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:59 am

Quoting eurowings (Reply 33):
Does U2's current fleet have spaceflex on the A320s?

Yes, some - not all yet! Capacity will be Y186.

So, in the end, the old germanwings A320's -the LCC of Lufthansa- will offer MORE legroom than mainline fleet?   

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