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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:07 pm

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 47):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 44):
Also remember it is the rescue service and the police that saves people, not the Accident Investigation board. So the police acted correctly.



It's also a matter of procedure to some extent. The police states that since they didn't know at first if there was a chance there were survivors (with or without ejection seats I guess), they acted according to life saving procedures. Swedish police is not all about shooting young men in the back as I've heard of in other countries...

After realizing the chance of survivors were close to none, they started an investigation to clarify the causes of the crash, which has the potential (!) to end up as a crime (say due to poor maintenance) so it has to be done as any police investigation with a "suspected cause" which is stated in the article as "breaking the laws of ait traffic". Mind you that they only had IR footage and possibly observations from the Norwegian rescue chopper in total darkness, 30 C and strong winds to go by from the crash site at that point in time (9 am). The first faint daylight appears at around 10 am at that location.

It all makes sense to me, but I can esily imagine that it sounds strange when odd sentences are quoted Regarding the knowledge of ejection seats: ask some of your non-AV-friends if a cargo CRJ has ejection seats for the pilots (with no other explanation), and you'll see what I mean

This is roughly the way it works:

1. Police and rescue forces act as fast as possible to try to save people. Thats just what they tried to do.

2. Police start an criminal investigation as a procedural matter.

3. The Swedish National Transportation Safety Board "Statens Haverikommission" is doing the actual investigation. (The police is kept informed during the investigation).

Since this is an civil aviation accident the actual investigation will be performed by the national transportation safety board in Sweden "Statens Haverikommission". Depending on what turns up here the Police will be informed and proper legal actions taken if needed. This procedure is probably similar to the procedure in other western countries.
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:12 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 42):
One would think the police would let Accident Investigation Board
do their thing before messing everything up.

Well just like with the Germanwings crash last year, there can be two parallel investigations.
It will take a long time (well over a year) before HavKom have finished their investigation.
HavKom never investigates matters regarding blame or crime or etc, that is solely a matter for the police.

The actions that the police in Norrbotten currently are undertaking are of standard procedure actions.
They are just following the law and the regulations. The thing with the ejection seats are probably
just some sort of categorization which determines which kind of investigations they should start.

Also the police always investigates deaths that have happened at work so it is just
standard procedure for them to start an investigation.

[Edited 2016-01-09 04:17:28]
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:19 pm

Quoting rebr (Reply 45):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 44):
This is one of the most professional rescue forces in the world when it comes to plane accidents. Why would they know exactly what an CRJ200 is??

That's a contradiction right there.

If the police for real is investigating a violation of the aviation law because the aircraft did not have ejection seats they are complete fools, not professionals.

The Police in the region is used to military accidents and saving people in that context. They thus rightly determined that the plane did not have ejection seats in their rescue effort. If it would have had ejection seats the pilots may have survived. And thats not being a fool like you say, that doing the job!!

And as we have said several times now its the National transportation Safety Board that is performing the investigation.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:28 pm

The Swedish National Transportation Safetyboard "Statens Haverikommission" has members with long experience from Commercial Civil Aviation. they are commercial pilots and specialists in Aviation Technilogy. These people together with the manufacturer Bombardier and probably also the norwegian authorities are doing the investigation of this crash.

During this investigation the Swedish Police have an open criminal investigation as a procedural matter. This is closed when the investigation is finished in case there was no criminal offence leading up to the crash.

The Swedish Police and Norwegian Forces made an excellent job in the trying to rescue people in this accident. The question about possible ejection seats was highly relevant.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:13 pm

The CRJ100/200 has had 17 hull losses( between 1993 and 2016, of 1000 or so built) according to:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...s/Bombardier-CRJ100-200-440/losses
A relatively good record after all..

Not a single mid-air structural failure is reported. I found two stalls, one during a test flight in 1993, the other during a re- positioning flight at FL410, engines shut down, too.

Icing at cruise at FL330 in the reported weather would nor be plausible as mentioned earlier, an icing issue in Oslo would have resulted in problems much earlier, right?


Hopefully the data recorder can be found and interpreted

[Edited 2016-01-09 05:51:51]
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:48 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 44):
Why would they know exactly what an CRJ200 is

They must have known that a mail plane was in trouble and it likely was this that was found. How many civilian airliners / cargo planes have ejection seats installed ?

The comment was wierd.


No one is questioning the way investigations work in this regard. The question is why the police are so uninformed tht they actually beleave a civilian airliner have ejection seats.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:58 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 55):
No one is questioning the way investigations work in this regard. The question is why the police are so uninformed tht they actually beleave a civilian airliner have ejection seats.

I think it is because they are experts at finding and saving people from wreckages, and lost people in the swedish mountains, flying police helicopter and scooters etc rather than knowing any specific airplane type possibly involved in an accident. I think it would be strange if an average policeman would know about the CRJ200PF. And if you dont know you ask. its as simple as that. Not all rescuepeople are idiots just because they dont now about a CRJ 200PF. I think the notion that all rescue people should know about all planes is a bit narrowminded. They did a hell of a job trying to save people. And what if the plane would have been military and had ejection seats?

[Edited 2016-01-09 05:59:59]
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:36 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 44):
Police authorities in this area has a long history of taking care of military plane accidents. So therefore the question is relevant to them after taking care of many many military plane accidents. Since they had information the plane had no passengers they could easily believe that the plane had ejection seats so why not ask. Better safe than sorry, its their job. This is one of the most professional rescue forces in the world when it comes to plane accidents. Why would they know exactly what an CRJ200 is?? They know its a plane and they act to save people as fast as possible. Also the cooperation between Sweden and Norway in this area is excellent!!

Also remember it is the rescue service and the police that saves people, not the Accident Investigation board. So the police acted correctly.

Military planes or not, just going by the info that this was a civilian cargo aircraft with no passengers doesn't mean it has ejection seats. Not even military cargo planes like C-130 have ejection seats. Anyone who seriously believe these things have absolutely no idea what they're doing regarding to aviation.

They are probably good rescue forces, and the cooperation between the Norwegians and the Swedes was very good, that's true. But we have to seperate between aircraft investigators and rescue workers here. It's unclear to me who made those ridiculus statements about ejection seats. Was it the police?

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 47):
Swedish police is not all about shooting young men in the back as I've heard of in other countries...   

What does this mean?

Quoting Navigator (Reply 53):
The Swedish Police and Norwegian Forces made an excellent job in the trying to rescue people in this accident. The question about possible ejection seats was highly relevant.

I really have to disagree here. These are professionals we're talking about, right? Ejection seats...?

Quoting Navigator (Reply 56):
And what if the plane would have been military and had ejection seats?

What military cargo aircraft have ejection seats? And they surely must have known it was civilian by that time?

Either way, what does it matter if the plane had ejection seats or not?
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:14 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 57):
Either way, what does it matter if the plane had ejection seats or not?

As it has been explained before it has to do with search and rescue. If the aircraft had been equipped
with ejection seats, the Swedish authorities would have been obligated to continue the SAR-operation
accordingly to the law about protection against accidents (4 kap 1 §).

However when it was established by the police that the crashed aircraft was not equipped with ejection seats,
it was no longer a search and rescue operation. So the SAR-op was aborted/closed .
The police then opened a new preliminary investigation regarding crime against
the aviation protection law (luftfartslagen) and arbetsmiljölagen (work environment law).

It is not about individuals needing to have knowledge about various aircraft types, it is about the police
(as well as the other involved authorities) following the Swedish law and their own rules/regulations.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:15 pm

Huh. I always thought supersonic fighter jets delivered the mail. Complete with ejection seats. Guess I was wrong all these years!
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:23 pm

Quoting saleya22r (Reply 54):

Icing at cruise at FL330 in the reported weather would nor be plausible as mentioned earlier, an icing issue in Oslo would have resulted in problems much earlier, right?

I think you're probably correct. I'm leaning towards undeclared dangerous goods (like lithium ion battery) cargo starting an inflight fire. En route icing just doesn't seem likely nor make much sense.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:25 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 57):
Military planes or not, just going by the info that this was a civilian cargo aircraft with no passengers doesn't mean it has ejection seats
OK so you and I know that now and its fine... But you do not know which info swedish police had initially, do you??

And remember they are in a hurry to save lives. It is their damn obligation to check if someone may still be alive. And if the are uncertain about ejection seats or not they better check it fast, like they did.

Remember most planes that have crashed in the area are military. Recently a norwegian C-130.

Has it ever occured to you that the Police did not have information about aircraft type intially? You may like it or not but if you do not know the aircraft type I think the rescue Service is right to check this. If the plane indeed had ejection seat the may have to search in another way.

[Edited 2016-01-09 08:29:12]
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:44 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 61):
OK so you and I know that now and its fine... But you do not know which info swedish police had initially, do you??

And remember they are in a hurry to save lives. It is their damn obligation to check if someone may still be alive. And if the are uncertain about ejection seats or not they better check it fast, like they did.

Remember most planes that have crashed in the area are military. Recently a norwegian C-130.

Has it ever occured to you that the Police did not have information about aircraft type intially? You may like it or not but if you do not know the aircraft type I think the rescue Service is right to check this. If the plane indeed had ejection seat the may have to search in another way.

Sure, we don't know how much info they had. That's fair enough. It just came across as very ridiculous to actually believe that they had ejection seats to begin with. Anyway, I understand the reasoning.

The Kebnekaise accident with the Norwegian C-130 was really bad, I remember that one well. It felt really awful, because the crew members were from the same squadron as my father, who used to fly C-130s as well. I spent a lot of time amongst them when I was little, even riding in the jump seats and sometimes in the captain's chair.

There are a couple of similarities between this West Air accident and the C-130 one.. both hit really hard and nearly pulverized. Although we know the reason for the C-130 one, I'm very curious about this one.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:47 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 57):
What military cargo aircraft have ejection seats? And they surely must have known it was civilian by that time?

Any swedish or foreign fighter operating in the area frequently has ejection seats. Swedish Police and SAR have a history of saving pilots that have ejected in this area. And maybe they did not know initially that the plane was civilian...or a freighter... Maybe they suspected it was a fighter intially.

I for one think they did the right thing to check it out if they were not certain. Thats professionalism...

Its so easy to sit in an armchair and have opinions about policework like this. But I rather see that they check things if they are not certain than not.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 63):
Its so easy to sit in an armchair and have opinions about policework like this. But I rather see that they check things if they are not certain than not.

Well yes. But still, the the screenshot says "Vid 13-tiden" they received information that you could not eject from the plane. That's 12 hours after the crash. And it says around 9 o clock they did not have any such info. It's mindboggling. But nothing surprises me about Sweden anymore.

[Edited 2016-01-09 10:59:25]
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:00 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 57):
Swedish police is not all about shooting young men in the back as I've heard of in other countries...

What does this mean?

Sorry, that may have been out of line. Sadly, police forces in some countries are known to be both brutal and trigger happy. I wanted to point out that this is not the case in Sweden (and Norway for that matter, it's not Norway I'm getting at of course).


Why don't we just give this ejection seat quotation a rest now, please?

According to Swedish news, they pumped up 1,3 tons of fuel (some sources say 300 liters) from the crater and also located parts of the FDR or CVR, not clear which one ("parts of the black box"...).

/Fredrik
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:10 pm

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 47):
Swedish police is not all about shooting young men in the back as I've heard of in other countries...
[quote=FredrikHAD,reply=65]

Why don't we just give this ejection seat quotation a rest now, please?

At least ejections seats are related to this accident versus the first gratuitous snarky comment, though certainly it was an odd comment from the police. They aren't supposed to be aviation experts though so it's sort of a non-event.

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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:12 pm

It is absurd to read in this thread that somebody persistently critisize the Swedish Police for asking a simple question that will help them do their job. So the Police asked a question that seems stupid to an AV-geek. So what? If in doubt, ask.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:32 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 62):
There are a couple of similarities between this West Air accident and the C-130 one.. both hit really hard and nearly pulverized.

I'd say the similarities end just there, possibly adding the extreme terrain they both crashed in. The C-130 was flown level straight into Kebnekajse mountain, crew probably believing they were above all possible obstacles (they were only some 100 meters below the peak, which is the highest in all of Sweden). This one apparently had a failure at high cruising altitude, detected by the pilots.


So, two highly experienced pilots crash with their supposedly well maintained CRJ200 PF. High altitude icing seems to be an improbable cause, as well as ice remaining from poor de-icing before takeoff. Dangerous cargo has been mentioned, although Norska Posten has extensive screening to prevent that type of cargo being delivered by air. Cockpit fire not likely(?). More possible causes or similar accidents?

Anyone having more info on the radio traffic and mayday call? Was any more info given over the radio?

/Fredrik
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:11 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 67):
It is absurd to read in this thread that somebody persistently critisize the Swedish Police for asking a simple question that will help them do their job. So the Police asked a question that seems stupid to an AV-geek. So what? If in doubt, ask.

It's not absurd. The police thought the aircraft had ejection seats.

I quote from message:

"Wich is standard for this type of aircraft"

End quote


12 hours after the accident you would think they knew what type of aircraft it was and that it was not a fighter and not something that had ejector seats.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:48 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 66):
certainly it was an odd comment from the police

Yes, the journalist quoting the police spokeswoman wrote: When the information that the pilots could not eject was received, AS IS USUAL IN THIS TYPE OF AIRCRAFT....

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):

There must have been a misunderstanding, and/or the police was misquoted by the journalist. Even so, this statement came 12 hours after the accident. They must have strongly believed it was a military plane initially.
Nothing to do with the professionalism and efficacy of the Swedish police& SAR per se.
I have worked in Jämtland, Sweden rural areas a loong time ago and know that!

The crater suggests that the plane came down more or less in one piece. Mid-air explosion/breakdown less probable?

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 68):
The C-130 was flown level straight into Kebnekajse mountain


=CFIT

This accident= catastrophic event at cruise altitude. Structural failure? Horizontal stabilizer disintegration? Deep stall?
Fire?
No similarities apart from the geography
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 69):

I quote from message:

"Wich is standard for this type of aircraft"

Well, you quote a part of a sentence and make it look like the police are complete idiots.

I'll translate the whole sentence, word by word more or less (not proper english):

"When information that the pilots could not eject, which is standard for aircraft of this type, the [case/crime] classification was set and is subject to change."

You can interpret the part "which is standard for aircraft of this type", to refer to both that the pilots could NOT eject (due to no ejector seats present as standard) and that the standard for the AC type was that they COULD. Poor backwards reference I'd say and may well be the reporter's wordings since it's not a quote in the article.

I'm not very good at Norwegian myslef so I can appreciate the difficulties in interpreting the slight nuances in a foreign article, and I just hope this whole ejector seats "missing" discussion is a language-based misunderstanding. Give it a rest.

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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:01 pm

The police did their job. I doubt they care about aircraft type, they are there to save lives. The police only said what they did initially to outrule that anyone had survived. They did not want to discontinue the rescue effoert before being certain.

You can understand why the police in the area are used to pilots ejecting. They have experience from that.

But that Mortiman does not understand why the Police are outruling possibilities before discontinuing the Search and Rescue is a bit strange. Why shouldnt they? Even stranger is that Mortiman thinks Swedish Police should have an extensive knowledge about planes just like he has. Thats simply not their job and they dont need that knowledge. I think its better they know how to save people from wreckages in difficult terrain.

I still think the Police did an excellent job and in case they thought the plane had ejection seats or not, so be it... And you can not expect Policemen to be Aviation Nuts. But you do expect them to do their jobs like they did in this case.

[Edited 2016-01-09 13:08:12]
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:05 pm

Quoting saleya22r (Reply 70):
They must have strongly believed it was a military plane initially.

... or at least couldn't rule that out. Until you rule out all possibilities of finding survivors, you keep looking, right? That's what I'd want if I was on a snowy mountain in -30 C after crashing...
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 73):
Quoting saleya22r (Reply 70):
They must have strongly believed it was a military plane initially.

... or at least couldn't rule that out. Until you rule out all possibilities of finding survivors, you keep looking, right? That's what I'd want if I was on a snowy mountain in -30 C after crashing...

Exactly! They must rule that out before discontinuing the Search and Rescue Effort!!
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:55 pm

Nobody is criticizing the Swedish Police for their efforts to find possible survivors. Nor for asking questions. Nor does anybody claim the Swedish Police is unprofessional in general. What I was getting at is that "opening an investigation" because they thought the aircraft should have had ejection seats is ridiculous. Really? They don't have cell phones, so that could have made 1 phone call to Swedish Aviation Authorities and double check on the type of aircraft, it's role, equipment whatever? Heck they could have Google'd it. But no, let's open an investigation. That's just humor, not professionalism. No critic from me for them not knowing, but then just ask somebody who does know, don't open an investigation into violation of the aviation law.

Also, I am very glad you are proud of your country and your police force, but relax...

Quoting Navigator (Reply 72):
You can understand why the police in the area are used to pilots ejecting. They have experience from that.
Quoting Navigator (Reply 44):
This is one of the most professional rescue forces in the world when it comes to plane accidents.

No they're not. It's not like people are ejecting from aircraft over northern Scandinavia every day. I have been a lot in northern Norway, Sweden and Finland, and really nothing happens there. It's the kind of place where you can just leave the keys in your car because nobody will steal it anyway and where you find the police in the local pizzeria having their lunch. One of their main jobs is probably to pull out retarded tourists from the wilderness, who forgot that they are in fact in the middle of nowhere and are not equipped alike. So yes, the police up there is probably very skilled when it comes to the terrain and weather etc, but that does not make them "one of the most professional rescue forces in the world when it comes to plane accidents". I love your country but let us stay a bit realistic.

Let's stop discussing this "ejection seat" nonsense, and hope for some more details about possible causes. With screaming headlines "Black box shredded to pieces" news reports in Norway are saying that pieces of one of the black boxes have been found. Let's hope they can get something out of it.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:06 pm

Quoting rebr (Reply 75):
What I was getting at is that "opening an investigation" because they thought the aircraft should have had ejection seats is ridiculous.

This is simply not the case. It's a misunderstanding. Lost in translation kind of...
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:39 pm

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 68):
So, two highly experienced pilots crash with their supposedly well maintained CRJ200 PF. High altitude icing seems to be an improbable cause, as well as ice remaining from poor de-icing before takeoff. Dangerous cargo has been mentioned, although Norska Posten has extensive screening to prevent that type of cargo being delivered by air. Cockpit fire not likely(?). More possible causes or similar accidents?

Anyone having more info on the radio traffic and mayday call? Was any more info given over the radio?

Maybe cargo shifted in flight? But then again, how heavy are the boxes being shipped by Posten? I guess they could be transporting heavier items at times as well. Regarding communications, as far as I know there was a mayday call without any further explenation and then loss of contact. But I'm not sure.

Quoting rebr (Reply 75):
Let's stop discussing this "ejection seat" nonsense, and hope for some more details about possible causes. With screaming headlines "Black box shredded to pieces" news reports in Norway are saying that pieces of one of the black boxes have been found. Let's hope they can get something out of it.

Yes, let's stop with the ejection seats. Misunderstandings, miscommunicatons, whatever it was. Nobody is doubting their general professionalism. I also heard they had found parts of the black box, but not the voice recorder yet. Hopefully they'll find that soon as well.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:30 am

Quoting rebr (Reply 75):
What I was getting at is that "opening an investigation" because they
thought the aircraft should have had ejection seats is ridiculous. Really?

They didn't. To put it step by step:

1. SAR-operation initiated by Swedish JRCC when mayday called was heard.
2. Crash site detected.
3. It was established that the aircraft did not have ejection seat, meaning no chance of finding survivors.
4. SAR-operation closed.
5a. Police follows standard procedure and opens a preliminary investigation, accordingly to
luftfartslagen and arbetsmiljölagen. This is always done with these types of fatal accidents and it
has nothing to do with ejection seats or even aviation.
5b. Swedish accident investigation board (Haverikommissionen) opens their investigation.

[Edited 2016-01-10 01:30:42]
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
MHG
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:33 am

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:50 am

Something that keeps me wondering is the possible vertical speed before hitting the ground.

If the aircraft went down in a straight downward position (as the impact photos suggest) how fast could we expect the aircraft to be at impact. (not exactly but at least a rough estimate)
I calculated an (average) vertical speed of 389kph between 33000ft and 11725ft.
Considering the vertical speed to gradually increase (also below the last report at 11725ft) I am wondering if/why the aircraft did not start to disintegrate -at least in part - before impact.
Is it possible that the vertical speed (in this case translating into aircraft "forward movement") did not exceed the aircrafts structural limits ???

Just wondering ...
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
rugger
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:03 pm

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:28 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 77):
Maybe cargo shifted in flight? But then again, how heavy are the boxes being shipped by Posten? I guess they could be transporting heavier items at times as well.

This came to my mind as well. But if the plane was in level flight at the time of the accident, what would cause the cargo to shift? And that is a very desolate place to come down in too. RIP to the crew.
 
fbwless
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2000 2:07 am

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:02 pm

Local police have announced (according to Aftonbladet) that HavKom has retrieved "all necessary parts of the black boxes". I would assume this is both FDR and CVR but one cannot be sure about these types of messages from media.
 
mila
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 10:47 am

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:15 pm

Adding a a link to a Swedish newsmedia with a photo of the crater.
http://www.expressen.se/gt/nya-fynden-efter-flygplanskraschen/
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5947
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:24 pm

Exploration crews found Sunday a whole black box and several parts of the second black box from the mail plane that crashed Thursday night, according to the Swedish police.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6167
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:23 pm

Latest news is that 'all necessary parts of both black boxes' has now been found. Probably a good thing, as there's a snowstorm headed towards the crash area.

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/...itta-svar-pa-orsak-till-flygolycka
 
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FredrikHAD
Posts: 453
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:36 pm

http://www.havkom.se/utredningar/civ...t-se-dux-av-typen-canadair-crj-200

"Under lördagen hittades den ena av de svarta lådorna (FDR). Den är kraftigt demolerad och SHK:s tekniska utredare arbetar med att undersöka om minnesenheten är intakt. Enheten kommer därefter att transporteras till ett laboratorium där informationen kan läsas ut. Det kan ta någon vecka innan detta är gjort.

Delar av den andra svarta lådan (CVR) hittades också under lördagen. Den enheten var däremot inte intakt och den del som innehåller minnesfunktioner saknades. Under söndagen hittades även den del av flygplanets CVR som tidigare saknats. "

Translation of the essentials:

"On Saturday, the FDR was located. It's heavily deformed and the investigators are working to determine if the memory unit is intact.
...
Parts of the CVR was also located on Saturday. That unit was not intact and the memory unit was missing. On Sunday, the memory unit of the CVF was located."

/Fredrik
 
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FredrikHAD
Posts: 453
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:28 pm

Today, "fragments of human remains" were found on the site. Gruesome...

"Everyting is pulerized", says one of the persons searching through the debris. 15 large plastic garbage sacks have been filled with mail found. Due to the wind, I'd guess a large portion of the mail was carried away by the wind at impact, and not too much should be expected to remain in the crater.

/Fredrik
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5947
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:46 pm

Relatives of the pilots who lost their lives and representatives from the airline got to visit the crash site to pay their last farewell and respect. The place is now so frozen, than any further investigation of the crash site has been posponed to the summer.


http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/427/427398/42739878/jpg/active/729x.jpg


Photo: Swedish Police

http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/01/13/n...nriks/flystyrt/flyulykke/42739862/
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:12 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 87):
The place is now so frozen, than any further investigation of the
crash site has been posponed to the summer.

Well in a worst case scenario;, they might be in for a long wait.  

All in all it is pretty much the same as with the NorAF C130 crash. It's not only the frozen ground
that is a problem but lack of daylight, lack of roads and generally fierce weather in the winter.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:10 pm

a brief video sequence from the crash site: http://www.tv4play.se/program/nyheterna ... id=3503412
The local Same people are not happy with the slow cleaning process, http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/norrbo ... t-postflyg
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:42 pm

According to Swedish tabloid newspaper Aftonbladet, the crash happened because of a technical error in the flight control system.
The article says that one of the pfd indicated that the aircraft was in a steep climb despite that the aircraft was in a levelled flight.
A master warning was supposedly sounding, indicating an error with one of the "indicators" (the three independent attitude indicators?).
However the warning was reset by the pilots who the used the second pfd as an indication of the levelling of the aircraft,


http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/l2m ... postflyget

The full report is available here: http://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/RL-2016_11.pdf

a summary of causing factors:

De felaktiga attitydindikeringarna på PFD 1 orsakades av en felfunktion på en av tröghetsnavigeringsenheterna (IRU 1). PFD-enheternas komparatorindike-ringar
rensades bort när attitydindikatorerna visade ovanliga attityder. I simu-latorn som användes för besättningens träning rensades inte motsvarande indikeringar.
Piloterna blev initialt kommunikativt isolerade från varandra under händelseförloppet.

Det aktuella flygoperativa systemet saknade väsentliga delar som är nödvän-diga. I den aktuella händelsen saknades exempelvis ett system
för effektiv kommunikation. Haverikommissionen anser att ett generellt system för initiala utrop (standard calls) för hantering av onormala och
nödsituationer samt för ovanliga och oväntade situationer bör införlivas i den kommersiella luftfarten.
Olyckan orsakades av att de operationella förutsättningarna inte var tillräckliga för att fånga upp ett fel i ett redundant system.

Bidragande har varit att:
  • Ett effektivt system för att hantera och kommunicera varningar eller nödlägen saknades.
  • Instrumentsystemet gav otillräcklig vägledning om uppkomna felfunktioner.
  • Den inledande manövreringen som ledde till negativ belast-ning (Gz) har sannolikt påverkat piloternas förmåga att hantera problemet rationellt.


*lack of an efficient system for management and communication of warnings and emergencies
*The instrument system didn't give enough guidance about active errors
*The initial manoeuvre which led to the negative G effect, likely affected the pilots ability to handle the problem in a rationally manner.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4205
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Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:31 pm

Do you have access to an English version?
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:42 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Do you have access to an English version?


I don't know if there is an English version, the website only lists the Swedish version of the investigation report.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
mila
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 10:47 am

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:40 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Do you have access to an English version?


I also don't know about a english version, but translate.google.com should do a decent translation, pick the tabel of contents first then you better know which parts are of interrest.
 
MerlinIIIB
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:32 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:49 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
However the warning was reset by the pilots who the used the second pfd as an indication of the levelling of the aircraft,


I can find no statement in the report indicating use of the "second PFD" (or even the stand-by attitude indicator) as cross reference. In fact the lack of CRM made the captain's (failed) IRU1 and misleading PFD1 prevail as the main source of information during the sequence of events. Transition from full automation to confusion in seconds.
 
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SXI899
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:02 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:54 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Do you have access to an English version?

English version here:
http://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/RL-2016_11e.pdf
We deliver......
 
Someone83
Posts: 5317
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:00 pm

Quite a few similarities with AF447
 
SteinarN
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:11 pm

In short, the IRU1 failed in the pitch channel, this faulty data was displayed to the left seat pilot via the the primary flight display showing a rapidly increasing pitch, up to 30 degrees, while the aircraft actually was level and perfectly stable. The autopilot disengaged after a few seconds of faulty data beeing displayed. The left seat pilot then applied significant pitch down trying to correct the seemingly dangerous pitch up attitude. The aircraft reached up to 40 degrees pitch down and negative G. All the time the right seat primary flight display was showing correct attitude and information. The pilots did not communicate this discrepancy in their primary flight displays to each other and the right seat pilot didnt interfere with the left seat pilot applying pitch down. After only 20 to 30 seconds the aircraft attitude and speed made any recovery very difficult. The aircraft hit the ground at more than 500 knots only 80 seconds after the first indication of a couple degrees pitch up attitude on the left seat pilots PFD.
 
rmilstre
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:42 pm

Re: West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:53 pm

80 seconds. A bit less than a minute and a half. From "perfectly fine" to dead. That is a very sobering thought. If you're a pilot, you should introspectively ask yourself, "what would *I* do in this situation?"

-Rob

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