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BMcD
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West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:23 am

Reports of West Air CRJ-200 from Oslo is missing. Reported reg is SE-DUX. Holding out hopes that all is well and everyone is safe.
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StrandedAtMKG
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West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:44 am

Sadly, Norwegian media is reporting that the aircraft (which was performing a flight on behalf of the Swedish postal service) has crashed and both pilots were killed.

http://www.tv2.no/2016/01/08/nyheter/sverige/utenriks/7891790 (link in Norwegian)

[Edited 2016-01-07 19:47:04]
 
BMcD
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West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 am

RIP to the Pilots and their families. Always a sad day to lose an aviator. God speed.
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n797mx
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West Air CRJ Crashed in Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:47 am

Saw reports that they issued a mayday, but were not heard from after doing so.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/...eden-after-issuing-a-distress-call
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
Someone83
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:01 am

Quoting BMcD (Thread starter):
SE-DUX

Delievered Lufthansa Cityline February 1993, so nearly 23 years old. Rebuilt to freighter and delivered WestAir in 2006/2007
 
CXfirst
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:10 am

Flight was from OSL to TOS with Norwegian mail.

Current reports are saying BOO Tower heard a mayday call, but no details about mayday.

Preliminary reports from witness of the accident site, are saying the aircraft must have crashed into the ground at a high speed. Apparently, the aircraft created a crater about 20m deep (early, early reports), but wreckage looks like it is all quite centralized, with one engiine about 20m away from the rest of the aircraft. So, if there was an inflight breakup, it wasn't any major piece of the aircraft.

Again, I stress, these are early reports.

-CXfirst
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:10 am

Two pilots, a French and Spanish. Swedish authorities say it is unlikely anyone survived.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:22 am

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/685358745111638016

Some FR24 data shows that the aircraft was falling very fast.
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ahmetdouas
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:37 am

Can it be a deep stall caused by icing?
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:12 am

Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:41 am

Cockpit fire maybe? Seems it hit with high velocity. Nothing left.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:57 am

It seems like it nearly pulverized the airplane. Icing issues doesn't sound unlikely. The crash site is far from any roads or population, it's pure wilderness.
 
mila
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:01 am

Quoting StrandedAtMKG (Reply 1):
Sadly, Norwegian media is reporting that the aircraft (which was performing a flight on behalf of the Swedish postal service) has crashed and both pilots were killed.

http://www.tv2.no/2016/01/08/nyheter/sverige/utenriks/7891790 (link in Norwegian)

Just a minor correction, it was the Norwegian postal service that had rented the flight.

But very very sad, could it be a icing issue?
 
planewasted
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:05 am

Is icing common at high altitude? I thought it was at lower altitudes typically.
Did the plane crash in Norway or Sweden?

RIP to the pilots, very sad.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:08 am

Quoting planewasted (Reply 13):
Is icing common at high altitude? I thought it was at lower altitudes typically.
Did the plane crash in Norway or Sweden?

RIP to the pilots, very sad.

The plane crashed in Sweden, approx at the north-western tip of the lake Akkajaure http://kartor.eniro.se/m/lK8er
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Someone83
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:20 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 11):
Icing issues doesn't sound unlikely

The weather at that altitude was supposed to be quite good yesterday, so don't think icing should be the prime suspect.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:25 am

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 15):
The weather at that altitude was supposed to be quite good yesterday, so don't think icing should be the prime suspect.
Quoting planewasted (Reply 13):
Is icing common at high altitude? I thought it was at lower altitudes typically.

You don't see high altitude icing too much outside of convective activity, such as what AF447 encountered. Too early really to say what may have led to this crash, will certainly be following the investigation as it goes on.
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FredrikHAD
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:34 am

The nearest "major" cities are Jokkmokk and Gällivare and the're having some really cold winter weather right now with -30 C to -40 C in temperature along with hard winds. The nearest village, Ritsem, is 25 km away and there are no roads to the accident site, which is located on a mountain top more or less, at 1000 m altitude. Search is also complicated due to the polar night (there's only indirect sunlight for a few hours up there now). Strangely, the rescue team states thay cannot use snowmobiles as the lakes aren't frozen (sounds really strange to me but could be due to streaming water).

http://www.hitta.se/kartan!~67.78187....85484:18.14255!sg=true!t=combined

I don't know the exact location of the crash site, but this is an area with lots of mountains and lakes. One would think that if they had any kind of control, they would have opted for a lake, but apparently, they didn't have that option or they simply didn't see anything in the dark. The probable crash site is 2.5 km west or north-west of Ritsem based on FR24 data and a northerly heading.

The crash site was located by a Norwegian F-16 that assisted the Swedish rescure services in locating the site.

/Fredrik
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:40 am

Very sad. My thoughts are with the pilots and those close to them.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:44 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 10):
Cockpit fire maybe? Seems it hit with high velocity. Nothing left.

There was just a very short mayday call. That probably speaks against cockpit fire. I think there may be similarities between this crash and Air Asia & AF447... Pilot disorientation after Auto Pilot disconnect for some reason...
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:50 am

RIP to the poor souls; Westjet flew a lot for my Operator, my sympathy to families & colleagues!
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:18 pm

According to this article, both pilots had over 3000 hours experience each.
The captain had some 2000 hours on the CRJ200 while the fo had approx 900 hours on the type.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:51 pm

NRK has some video footage from the crash site, it really is a frozen wasteland: http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/postfly-styrtet-i-sverige-1.12738960
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:38 pm

Video footage from the two Royal Norwegian Air Force F-16s that discovered the crash site/wreckage. The F-16s were scrambled from the No 332 Squadron at Bodø Air Base which are part of the QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) force ready to scramble at 15 minutes notice 24/7/365. The F-16s used their advanced weapons targeting/identifying optics to locate the crash site, and was in the area 5 times faster than any rescue helicopters. Kudos to them.

http://www.an.no/sverige/forsvaret/f...et-av-norske-jagerfly/s/5-4-236392

From the last contact with radar to the crash site there was only 1 NM distance. And last contact was at 12,000 feet, which means it literally dived nearly vertically.
 
Mortyman
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:45 pm

Apparently the were at 33000 feet and fell 9000 feet pr. minute. It was two Norwegian F-16 fighters who's primare mission is Quick Reaction Alert (QRA for NATO that found the location of the aircraft. Video from one of the fighters below:

http://www.nrk.no/nordland/norske-f-...-video-fra-havaristedet-1.12739279


The location is about 9 kilometers from Norwegian border.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/01/08/n...heter/innenriks/flystyrt/42672983/
 
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FredrikHAD
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:46 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 23):
Video footage from the two Royal Norwegian Air Force F-16s that discovered the crash site/wreckage.

I was just wondering how the F-16's could find the wreckage in total darkness 2 hours after the crash, but apparently the heat from the aircraft was clearly visible with IR cameras.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:20 pm

Quote:

Following the accident involving the aircraft SE-DUX West Atlantic Sweden AB will hold a press conference at 11:00 at Best Western Tidbloms Hotel with address Olskroksgatan 23, SE 416-66 Gothenburg.

The aircraft departed Oslo on route to Tromsö and declared mayday at 23:31 whereby the Swedish and Norwegian search and rescue teams were notified. The crash site was located at 03:10 near the Norwegian border by the lake Akkajaure in the Swedish Lapplandsfjällen by air rescue services with support from Hovedredningssentralen in Norway.

The search has been taken over by the Swedish police which are on their way to the accident site. The internal process is coordinated by the Company’s Emergency Response Team.

Route
Flight no: SWN 294
Route: Oslo – Tromsö
Crew members on board: 2
Type of freight: General freight / Post

Aircraft
Registration: SE-DUX
Aircraft Type: Bombardier CRJ200 PF
Year of manufacture: 1993
Manufacturer’s serial number: 7010
Hours flown since manufactured: 38 601:49
Total flight cycles since manufactured: 31 036

West Atlantic Sweden AB has operated the aircraft since 2007 and flown approximately 10 000 hours.

Crew
Age: Captain 42, First Officer 34
Employed with the company: 2011 and 2008
Flight hours: Captain 2 050 hours on type, total hours 3 173
First officer: 900 hours on type, total hours 3 050

End quote

http://www.westatlantic.eu/Newsroom/2016/01/08/SEDUX-accident

[Edited 2016-01-08 07:39:55]
 
Mortyman
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:50 pm

The accident at Akkajaure is the third serious incident with the airline since 2010.

September 2014: Lost control due to icing

In a report published last October AIBN expressed concern over the company and the pilots' skills to fly safely over demanding winter conditions in Norway.


The report addresses a near accident in September 2014. The pilots lost speed and control of the aircraft due to icing when it was on its way from Oslo to Vaernes. The pilots fought to correct the plane in 30 seconds. When they regained control they had lost 300 meter height.

This occurred because the pilots did not know that they should keep a higher speed when there was a risk of icing, the report said.

"The phenomenon was well known before this event, and also described in the flight manual and other documents. Nevertheless uncovered survey deficiencies in this area, "the report said.


Slid off the runway at Svalbard 2010

At the internal course they had undergone, "Flying in Norway", did not increase in speed in icing hazard been a prescribed procedure, despite the fact that this was part of manufacturar recommendations.


The report says that the captain had reported that "the crew had handled the situation according to the training course" Flying in Norway ", namely to return to an airspace where the temperature was above 0 degrees. It was not said anything to remain above the minimum speed in icing conditions. "

25. January 2010 lost pilots control over mail plane on the runway of Longyearbyen, and the plane ended outside the runway. AIBN points out in a report that the plane probably had too high a speed.


http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ir...ulykkesrammet-selskap-8310314.html


AIBN = Norwegian Accident Investigation Board
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:30 pm

Swedish Accident investigation bureau will investigate it.

Case page can be found here:
http://www.havkom.se/utredningar/civ...t-se-dux-av-typen-canadair-crj-200
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Mortyman
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:59 pm

At the place where mail plane crashed there are nearly 30 degrees below zero

Chief David Ögren the Swedish police have been on the site and says that most indicate that the aircraft has crashed straight into the ground.

- Conclusion I can take is that the plane has come straight down from the air and turned right into the ground. I can not see that they have touched the mountain until they have gone down. It has probably gone very fast, says Ögren NRK.

Around the crater is a few parts from the crashed plane and some of the mail that was included in the load.

- The area around is quite clean. Everything has ended up in the crater itself, says Ögren.

He says that the crater at the scene is between four and five meters deep and 30 to 40 meters in diameter


So far, there have been no findings of cockpit conversations and flight data recorder.

- We're going to look further. The space is pretty small, so if the black boxes have survived we have high hopes of finding them.

During the evening and morning hours of Saturday rescue leaders must also decide if it is necessary to remove the fuel from the crater, which has leaked from the plane.

- We will make a decision together with the emergency manager if the fuel from the aircraft must be pumped up from the crater, or whether it is possible to work under prevailing conditions. I would estimate that there are somewhere between 100 and 200 liters of fuel in the crater.

http://www.nrk.no/nordland/politiet-...havnet-i-selve-krateret-1.12739946
 
BMcD
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:16 pm

Would the boxes survive an impact like this? It doesn't look like much is left. Hope they find the cause and are able to fix it (either it be with the airframe or the airline).
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Chaostheory
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:30 pm

I flew for a sister company in the UK. These box carriers have some of the most seasoned aviators in Europe.

Blue skies and tailwinds forever chaps.
 
axelesgg
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:55 am

I have always wondered about West Air's routes from Oslo to northern Norway. West Air usually flies straight to destination while Norwegian and SAS flies in a curve to stay in Norwegian air space (except for like Kirkenes which includes Finnish air space as well).

So is this for economic reasons that West Air flies more straight and/or is DY and SK avoiding it for the weather and geographic conditions?
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:23 am

Quoting BMcD (Reply 30):
Would the boxes survive an impact like this?

To me the pictures seem to indicate that it crashed into glacier ice. The color of the crater walls indicates that, and I also doubt that a CRJ can make such a deep crater in rock or frozen soil.

If it is so, then the G forces on the recorders were less than several other violent crashes in the past.

I would estimate that the recorders can have survived well enough for the data to be retrieved, even if they are likely old style tape based recorders.
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dc9super80
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:30 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 19):
There was just a very short mayday call. That probably speaks against cockpit fire

Depends, maybe they where able to declare an emergency and where then overcome by smoke?
 
CXfirst
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:36 am

Quoting axelesgg (Reply 32):

I have always wondered about West Air's routes from Oslo to northern Norway. West Air usually flies straight to destination while Norwegian and SAS flies in a curve to stay in Norwegian air space (except for like Kirkenes which includes Finnish air space as well).

I was under the impression SK and DY do it for the cost saving of remaining within one FIR. Not sure what those costs would be. Perhaps, the smaller aircraft would have less overflying costs, so therefore the fuel savings would be greater. Or perhaps being Swedish registered lowers cost of transitting Swedish airspace, or they might have some concessions.

Anyway, it isn't for geographical or weather reasons.

-CXfirst
 
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Navigator
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:58 am

Quoting axelesgg (Reply 32):
while Norwegian and SAS flies in a curve to stay in Norwegian air space

This is not true. Both Norwegian and SAS requently fly into swedish airspace on this route. There is no reason whatsoever to stay out of swedish airspace. Airliners can use either side and fly the most economical route.

[Edited 2016-01-09 00:59:28]
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axelesgg
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:24 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 35):

Thanks, sounds reasonable but weird if it would be cheaper for a swedish plane to fly in Sweden.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 36):
This is not true. Both Norwegian and SAS requently fly into swedish airspace on this route. There is no reason whatsoever to stay out of swedish airspace. Airliners can use either side and fly the most economical route.

Oh it's not true? This is taken from fr24 right now:
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Mortyman
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:48 am

The Swedish police has some funny thoughts ... They actually beleaved that the pilots could eject themselves from the aircraft wich they beleaved to be standard for these kind of aircraft. That these aircraft come with ejecter seats .. They are actually surprised that that was not the case ... Someone has missunderstod something I think ...




 
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saleya22r
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:17 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 36):
Norwegian and SAS requently fly into swedish airspace on this route
Quoting axelesgg (Reply 37):
Oh it's not true?

I believe that both routes are used. On that particular route,however, the difference is surprisingly small, just about 16 km/9NM longer if flown in Norwegian airspace..

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):
The Swedish police has some funny thoughts

And the average Swede reading Aftonbladet believes this?? "Skjuta seg ut från planet" =shoot yourself out of the plane?? Maybe they rather meant to be able to get out of the aircraft wreck? Although it sounds more like to be able to eject!
 
Mortyman
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:41 am

Quoting saleya22r (Reply 39):
Maybe they rather meant to be able to get out of the aircraft wreck?

It's clear that the mean eject ...
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:58 am

Quoting saleya22r (Reply 39):
uoting Navigator (Reply 36):
Norwegian and SAS requently fly into swedish airspace on this route
Quoting axelesgg (Reply 37):
Oh it's not true?

I believe that both routes are used. On that particular route,however, the difference is surprisingly small, just about 16 km/9NM longer if flown in Norwegian airspace..

Exactly. To for instance Alta you go direct. And to post just two flights is of no use. You have to check all flights of course. The statement is simply not true. If you get a direct track by ATC you enter Sweden. This happens when traffic permits further down the route. Most often in low traffic. It happens to SAS and Norwegian too.

[Edited 2016-01-09 03:03:40]
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larshjort
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:06 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):

I hope my Swedish is worse than I think it is, but were the police investigating a violation of the aviation law when they found out the pilots were not able to eject from there aircraft because all aircraft of this type has ejection seats?  Wow!  Wow!
One would think the police would let Accident Investigation Board do their thing before messing everything up.

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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:11 am

I know I saw it along with the rest of the fleet in LYR/TOS when I was there last year, For some reason it always makes it all the more real when you see the pilots and the aeroplane in person.
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:16 am

Quoting larshjort (Reply 42):
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):

I hope my Swedish is worse than I think it is, but were the police investigating a violation of the aviation law when they found out the pilots were not able to eject from there aircraft because all aircraft of this type has ejection seats? Wow! Wow!
One would think the police would let Accident Investigation Board do their thing before messing everything up.

Police authorities in this area has a long history of taking care of military plane accidents. So therefore the question is relevant to them after taking care of many many military plane accidents. Since they had information the plane had no passengers they could easily believe that the plane had ejection seats so why not ask. Better safe than sorry, its their job. This is one of the most professional rescue forces in the world when it comes to plane accidents. Why would they know exactly what an CRJ200 is?? They know its a plane and they act to save people as fast as possible. Also the cooperation between Sweden and Norway in this area is excellent!!

Also remember it is the rescue service and the police that saves people, not the Accident Investigation board. So the police acted correctly.

[Edited 2016-01-09 03:22:01]
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:34 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 44):
This is one of the most professional rescue forces in the world when it comes to plane accidents. Why would they know exactly what an CRJ200 is??

That's a contradiction right there.

If the police for real is investigating a violation of the aviation law because the aircraft did not have ejection seats they are complete fools, not professionals.

RIP to the pilots, and I hope they find the cause quickly.
 
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RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:36 am

Quoting saleya22r (Reply 39):
I believe that both routes are used. On that particular route,however, the difference is surprisingly small, just about 16 km/9NM longer if flown in Norwegian airspace..

A few years ago, I saw both routes being used quite a bit. Lately (last year or so), I rarely see them fly over Sweden, expect for routes to Finnmark, with even Alta being flown over Norwegian Airspace almost each flight.

Up to TOS, flying over Norwegian airspace is a very small detour, especially if you had to choose one or the other. The direct line flies in and out of Norwegian/Swedish airspace, and so would just be a hassle for controllers and pilots alike.

-CXfirst
 
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FredrikHAD
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:46 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 44):
Also remember it is the rescue service and the police that saves people, not the Accident Investigation board. So the police acted correctly.

  

It's also a matter of procedure to some extent. The police states that since they didn't know at first if there was a chance there were survivors (with or without ejection seats I guess), they acted according to life saving procedures. Swedish police is not all about shooting young men in the back as I've heard of in other countries...   

After realizing the chance of survivors were close to none, they started an investigation to clarify the causes of the crash, which has the potential (!) to end up as a crime (say due to poor maintenance) so it has to be done as any police investigation with a "suspected cause" which is stated in the article as "breaking the laws of ait traffic". Mind you that they only had IR footage and possibly observations from the Norwegian rescue chopper in total darkness, 30 C and strong winds to go by from the crash site at that point in time (9 am). The first faint daylight appears at around 10 am at that location.

It all makes sense to me, but I can esily imagine that it sounds strange when odd sentences are quoted   Regarding the knowledge of ejection seats: ask some of your non-AV-friends if a cargo CRJ has ejection seats for the pilots (with no other explanation), and you'll see what I mean  

/Fredrik
 
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FredrikHAD
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:49 am

Quoting rebr (Reply 45):

If the police for real is investigating a violation of the aviation law because the aircraft did not have ejection seats they are complete fools, not professionals.

Well, see my previous response (47) and it may clear things up a bit.

/Fredrik
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: West Air CRJ Crashed In Northern Sweden

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:54 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 33):
To me the pictures seem to indicate that it crashed into glacier ice

No it is not a glacier, just a snow covered "myrmark". ( mire in English).
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente

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