Delta Signs LOI For LAX Terminals

LAXintl · Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:51 pm

Long rumored, but cat is out of the bag now.

Richard Anderson confirms carrier has signed an LOI to take over and consolidate operations in Terminal 2 & 3 at the airport.

Delta inks deal for major terminal move at LAX
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...major-terminal-move-at-lax-420660/

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Article has a few errors, but details will emerge in coming weeks.

STT757 · Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:58 pm

Good,

Give AA T-4 and T-5, UA T-6 and T-7 and move NK, Allegiant, F9 etc.. to T-8.

flyingcat · Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:13 pm

From a logistics standpoint would it not be better to move all T2 and T3 carriers to the midfield concourse temporarily until DL can move into a new T2+T3 are ready.

I cannot see any carrier accepting a move that will limit growth. F9, VX and NK are all accepting aircraft in the near future and will no doubt cry foul if LAX says they have to not only move but gate access will have to be taken away.

If this increases total gate count then the lawsuit from NIMBYS is pending, If this reduces or limits non exclusive gates for new entrants and exclusive terminal lease holders than the LCCs will sue as well.

Why LAX gates are not open access similar to LHR is a mystery

LAXintl · Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:16 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
Give AA T-4 and T-5, UA T-6 and T-7 and move NK, Allegiant, F9 etc.. to T-8.

No one is moving to T-8. T-8 is integral part of UA LAX ops. Its where majority of back offices are including ops nerve center. Also only way to access T-8 is via inside T-7.

T-5 & 6 can be back filled with random airlines as LAWA will hold the master leases

Quoting flyingcat (Reply 2):
Why LAX gates are not open access similar to LHR is a mystery

Because airlines in the US tend to enjoy having their own facilities that they can customize with their own furnishings, facilities and technology.
Common use defeats many of these efforts to create your own look and feel for customers.

mercure1 · Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:39 pm

Funny to think Northwest was shareholder in the company that built and owned the new T-2 to begin with, and also had lease on eastern portion of T-3.

Maybe DL should never have consolidated into T-5 post merger??

Maybe the big winner with this could be AA which might be able to gain west side of T-5.

commavia · Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:09 pm

As long rumored ... it will, indeed, be interesting to see what other changes - and there will obviously be many - this sets off, and how.

wedgetail737 · Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:17 pm

Would AS stay that their current terminal under this arrangement?

IcelandairMSP · Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:28 pm

Cool! So per the article, the airport still wants to consolidate T2/3 in the long term. But the LAWA master plan always indicates a linear terminal for T1-3 which...wouldn't have enough gates for DL alone, let alone an extra 14 for WN. I'm guessing there's an alternative that gives both airlines an appropriate amount of gates each? I'm guessing it's all still in flux and there aren't any immediate schemes for what comes after the midfield concourse is complete?

Sightseer · Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:39 pm

Very exciting to see this coming to fruition. T5 & T6 are quite packed these days, so I imagine DL will get some number of additional gates as part of this move. I wonder if some form of TBIT access is in the cards as well - and, of course, what this means for T5/6 going forward.

AABB777 · Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:57 pm

QR launched their LAX flight on January 1 and are operating out of T-2. I guess we can assume they will be relocated to another terminal in the foreseeable future?

Prost · Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:02 am

T2 is/has been significantly remodeled recently, hasn't it? Is there going to be additional remodeling occurring? And the article wasn't clear to me, is T3 a complete knock down and rebuild?

QANTAS747-438 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:10 am

How will this affect WN plans to operate international flights into T2?

LAXintl · Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:01 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Funny to think Northwest was shareholder in the company that built and owned the new T-2 to begin with, and also had lease on eastern portion of T-3.
Maybe DL should never have consolidated into T-5 post merger??

Yes kinda ironic. Delta sold the NW stake in LAX2 Corp at the time.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 6):
Would AS stay that their current terminal under this arrangement?

I see why not. AS has invested into T-6 with new lobby, gate area and club.

Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 7):

That linear concept is a long ways off if ever.

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 8):
I wonder if some form of TBIT access is in the cards as well

I'm not sure DL would want TBIT access. They would have their own decent sized FIS ops in T-2.
Though concept of a TBIT connector from T-3 does exist.

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 9):
QR launched their LAX flight on January 1 and are operating out of T-2. I guess we can assume they will be relocated to another terminal in the foreseeable future?

Eventually if DL will be exclusive in T-2/3 with some other partners like AM and VS, then other airlines such as QR will have to be compensated and moved. QR is in process of building a lounge in T-2, so if they have walk away, obviously they would need to recoup their cost. Same for other airlines that would need to be shuffled around.

Quoting Prost (Reply 10):
T2 is/has been significantly remodeled recently, hasn't it?

Yes T-2 has been remodeled prior, and is currently midstream of another $300mil project that includes revised lobby and all new concession spaces.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 11):
How will this affect WN plans to operate international flights into T2?

Nothing for now. Any move by DL would be down the road someways.

carljanderson · Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:03 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 11):
How will this affect WN plans to operate international flights into T2?

I would imagine that there would be some gates on the east side of T2 that will be available to SWA. Can't imagine LAWA letting DL use all of T2 and T3. .

MIflyer12 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:01 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Maybe the big winner with this could be AA which might be able to gain west side of T-5.

LAX can't have many (any?) more gates. DL isn't going to get many more. AA isn't going to get many more. Not unless they can find somebody to give up many gates. How many times can UA retrench?

ldvaviation · Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:14 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 14):
LAX can't have many (any?) more gates. DL isn't going to get many more. AA isn't going to get many more. Not unless they can find somebody to give up many gates. How many times can UA retrench?

LAX is moving moves like this to facilitate growth. It needs both AA and DL to grow at LAX.

Why? It is going to embark on a $5 B Landside Modernization Program.

The airlines don't want to see their facility charges increased to pay for it. Consequently, LAWA has to increase enplanements.

MAH4546 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:43 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Maybe the big winner with this could be AA which might be able to gain west side of T-5.

AA's intent is to takeover all of T5, and this sets the plan in motion. AA and DL agreed in principal last year to a plan in which AA takes T5 and Delta moves to T2/T3.

Neither airline is likely to gain gates - this just allows each to run a more efficient operation. AA in particular gains the ability to use mainline at all its gate - nine of its gates are RJ only.

[Edited 2016-01-08 19:54:47]

laxboeingman · Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:07 am

This is great for LAX, and I am glad to see that modernization is in progress. Good for DL, but didn't they just waste money by renovating and improving VIP perks in T5?

If they move the int'l airline out of T2, where will they go before the west concourse is completed? Will LAWA turn T5 into an int'l terminal for airlines that don't use TBIT.

Also, isn't the plane for WN to use an int'l gate in T2? What happens to their int'l flight or flights if DL takes over T2, and there is no int'l gate in T1? Will they use the West Concourse?

Thank you in advance for the answers.

wedgetail737 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:17 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
I see why not. AS has invested into T-6 with new lobby, gate area and club.

True, but AS has requested to move back to the north side of the airport because they were complaining about excessive
taxi times.

jetblastdubai · Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:40 am

Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 7):
But the LAWA master plan always indicates a linear terminal for T1-3

The linear terminal plan was originally thought up to accommodate moving 24L farther south and adding a parallel taxiway between 24L and 24R (like the south complex) in hopes of helping to reduce runway incursions. Additionally, by moving 24L and 24R farther apart, ATC would be able to hold any aircraft between the runways which would allow them to optimize the overall operation of the airport.

Currently, certain large/long aircraft cannot hold between the runways on the 90-degree taxiways without blocking the runway behind them. Example: 747 lands on 24R and misses all the high-speed exits and ends up on BB. If there is traffic landing behind the 747, the 747 must be cleared to cross 24L so that it can clear the hold bars that keeps 24R protected for the next arrival. 24L departures are stopped for obvious reasons when these aircraft are required to cross and it sometimes messes up the timing of the departure flow. You'd normally like to cross the inboard runway in a wake turbulence gap but when you're forced to cross, even a perfect gap must be wasted.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1601/00237ad.pdf

Notice that on 25L, none of the highspeed exits continue directly across 25R, they all merge into the center taxiway "H". This provides a natural barrier to prevent crossing 25R by mistake. ("H6" and "M" are a bit too close hence the "hotspot" designation)

hiflyeras · Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:48 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 6):
Would AS stay that their current terminal under this arrangement?

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 18):
True, but AS has requested to move back to the north side of the airport because they were complaining about excessive
taxi times.

AS has been considering a move...tired of playing second fiddle to DL and UA on the south side ramp. With DL vacating to the north side that will hopefully reduce the problem considerably. I imagine AM will remain in T2 since they're now in DL's pocket. So much for WN expanding into T2?

Prost · Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:18 am

So, did DL have a choice on signing this LOI?

ericm2031 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:01 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 16):
Neither airline is likely to gain gates - this just allows each to run a more efficient operation. AA in particular gains the ability to use mainline at all its gate - nine of its gates are RJ only.

How are some RJ only if they don't operate any RJ's from T4?

MAH4546 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:12 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 17):
Will LAWA turn T5 into an int'l terminal for airlines that don't use TBIT.

No. T5 almost definitely goes to AA.

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 22):
How are some RJ only if they don't operate any RJ's from T4?

Because AA has a nine gate RJ terminal that will likely be demolished following its move to T5. Combined with giving up the four T6 gates, that's 13, the number of gates at T5. Plus AA has rights to three inactive gates. Two of these will be built soon at T4. A third is planned to be a domestic gate at TBIT.

n901wa · Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:12 am

Cool! Finally it got announced. Now lets see what happens to Delta's other areas at LAX in the next few weeks.

n7371f · Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:25 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Funny to think Northwest was shareholder in the company that built and owned the new T-2 to begin with, and also had lease on eastern portion of T-3.

zkncj · Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:25 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Maybe DL should never have consolidated into T-5 post merger??

Problem being at the time NZ was an large customer of T2, and used up an reasonable amount of ramp space. They could have between 2-4 777s parked at the terminal at once, which pretty much filled up an entire side of T2. As the gates we're to small for an 777.

Now that NZ has moved to TBIT, it has opened up more space within T2.

ldvaviation · Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:02 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 23):
No. T5 almost definitely goes to AA.

The objectives here were:

(1) Balancing ops on both sides of the airport

(1a) Laying the groundwork for tearing down T6 and resiting T5, further improving plane movements on the south side.

(2) Optimizing and rationalizing gate use

(The AE Regional Facility is a poor use of 9 gates. Emerging political divisions between certain airlines on the south side were going to be a problem. The bus and baggage service to and from the AE Regional Facility and between the south terminals increases congestion on the service roads. LAWA subsidizes AA's costs for the AE bus service.)

(3) Finding a stakeholder who would participate financially in the rehabilitation of T3 and create an actual need for a T3 connector. (The current tenants in T3 have no real need for TBIT.)

(4) As I said above, increasing enplanements.

(5) Finding the assets to make a deal for AA's T4 master lease and AA's hangar. (That's where T5 comes in.)

[Edited 2016-01-08 23:05:38]

RyanairGuru · Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:11 am

I doubt that any current operators at T2 (plus WN) will be moved, at least not in the short term. I'd expect DL to get an exclusive lease on T3 and then preferred access to a number of gates in T2, similar to AA in TBIT, but not the whole terminal.

Sydscott · Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:43 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
I doubt that any current operators at T2 (plus WN) will be moved, at least not in the short term. I'd expect DL to get an exclusive lease on T3 and then preferred access to a number of gates in T2, similar to AA in TBIT, but not the whole terminal.

You'd expect that DL would gain exclusive access to all of the new domestic gates in T2 but that the FIS would remain as a dedicated facility for VS/AM/WN and DL. That would probably satisfy DL and its partners while it gives WN access to an FIS close to its terminal. However it also probably somewhat limits WN's international growth options from LAX in the long term unless they want to utilise some TBIT gates.

IFlyTWA · Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:58 am

Good to see this finally happen.

Is the plan to renovate the current T3 or level it and build a new terminal?

Passedv1 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:18 pm

I think they need to scrap the idea of redoing the current terminals and change the airport configuration to more like ATL or DEN, starting with Bradley as the first of 5 parallel terminals. All of the hangers and LAWA offices west of bradley should be shuffled while the terminals are being built. As the terminals are completed you can rebuild the lost buildings in the footprints of the old terminals if necessary.

My idea probably being prohibitively expensive, so if you can't redo the whole thing then I think moving Delta to the North side is a good idea, the biggest problem with LAX right now is the large imbalance in operations between the north & south sides. When you make the switch from south side ground to north side ground, it's like you've entered a whole other universe.

jetlanta · Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:18 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 21):
So, did DL have a choice on signing this LOI?

Yes. This has been in the planning stages for a long time. Both AA and DL will emerge from this with very attractive facilities, allowing for dramatically more efficient operations for both them and the airport as a whole.

Quoting ldvaviation (Reply 27):

The objectives here were:

(1) Balancing ops on both sides of the airport

(1a) Laying the groundwork for tearing down T6 and resiting T5, further improving plane movements on the south side.

(2) Optimizing and rationalizing gate use

(The AE Regional Facility is a poor use of 9 gates. Emerging political divisions between certain airlines on the south side were going to be a problem. The bus and baggage service to and from the AE Regional Facility and between the south terminals increases congestion on the service roads. LAWA subsidizes AA's costs for the AE bus service.)

(3) Finding a stakeholder who would participate financially in the rehabilitation of T3 and create an actual need for a T3 connector. (The current tenants in T3 have no real need for TBIT.)

(4) As I said above, increasing enplanements.

(5) Finding the assets to make a deal for AA's T4 master lease and AA's hangar. (That's where T5 comes in.)

Thanks for the summary. Can you clarify "resiting" T5? That has me intrigued. I assume T6 is demolished and T5 somehow expanded into the T6 operational space, with all of it connected to T4 (either by today's tunnel or an airside connector similar to what has been done up at SFO between T1 and T2.

Also, my understanding is that T2 is going to be further modified to meet Delta's requirements, but T3 will be razed (thank god) and rebuilt from scratch in a different configuration which is fully integrated with T2. Meaning that T2/T3 end up with a common Delta head house with the airside facilities essentially being "concourses"? In other words, T2/T3 essentially becomes T2/Concourse A&B? And that facility would likely be connected to TBIT as well. I'm piecing different things together from different sources, but does that sound about right?

rockyracoon · Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:22 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 17):
didn't they just waste money by renovating and improving VIP perks in T5?

Wondering the same thing. Are things like terminal amenities taken into account during the terminal swap negotiations? Or will these renovations for the most part be money down the drain?

[Edited 2016-01-09 06:28:35]

delimit · Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:33 pm

Quoting rockyracoon (Reply 33):
Wondering the same thing. Are things like terminal amenities taken into account during the terminal swap negotiations? Or will these renovation expenditures be a complete loss for DL?

This is going to take years to come to fruition. The renovated lounge benefits them now.

jfk777 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:05 pm

Finally one of the Big US3 moves to the north side of LAX it only taken, Forever. T3 is an abortion that should be retired in its current form, TWA is gone its time for its terminal to go too. What AA does with T5 and United with T6 is what I find truly exciting. Finally LAX arrives in the 21st century apart from the great TBIT which is great.

compensateme · Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 17):
This is great for LAX, and I am glad to see that modernization is in progress. Good for DL, but didn't they just waste money by renovating and improving VIP perks in T5?

Quoting rockyracoon (Reply 33):
Wondering the same thing. Are things like terminal amenities taken into account during the terminal swap negotiations? Or will these renovations for the most part be money down the drain?

DL only spent $11.25M, the rest was funded by LAX and the TSA for improvements that would've happened regardless of who is the tenant. Most of the money DL spent was toward improving the experience of HVC, so there will be some payback (not to mention that given that the move will take years, the amount DL spent for the covered timeframe is fairly routine). Timeliness is important -- DL is just now renovating its gate holding areas. Good bye, 1990s GID!

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
T3 is an abortion that should be retired in its current form, TWA is gone its time for its terminal to go too

T3 and T6 are similar in design and both have received makeovers; despite the discrepancy in money that was poured into T6, T3 -- from a passenger's point-of-view -- appears to be in far better shape.

[Edited 2016-01-09 07:27:11]

PIEAvantiP180 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:25 pm

So does anyone have a complete time line when all of this is to take place? Where will the airlines currently in terminal 3 go if it has to be torn down and rebuilt before DL makes their terminal move? And does anyone know how many total gates the new T2/3 complex will finally have? Thank you for any info.

johns624 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:14 pm

I used to fly into T2 3-4 times a year back when it was NW. I thought then that DL should have moved over. I hate T5-6. It seems like you have to walk forever to get anywhere. T2 was great in that respect.

DTWPurserBoy · Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:23 pm

LAX is so geographically constrained much like LHR. Consolidating and constant renovations are about the only options available. RA has often said that DL would grown internationally out of LAX and it will be interesting to see what new routes they propose.

TWA85 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:10 pm

Could the future terminal assignments be as follows?

Terminal 1: WN

Terminal 2: DL International flights and SkyTeam members

Terminal 3: DL Domestic flights

Terminal 4: AA Domestic flights

Terminal 5: AA International flights and Oneworld members

Terminal 6: Domestic flights other than AA, DL, UA and WN domestic flights

Terminal 7 & 8: UA

TBIT: All remaining International flights

cschleic · Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:11 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 39):
LAX is so geographically constrained much like LHR. Consolidating and constant renovations are about the only options available. RA has often said that DL would grown internationally out of LAX and it will be interesting to see what new routes they propose.

But at least it has four runways, and all the land west of TBIT. It's the central terminal area that's constrained.

Isn't UA going to consolidate it's maintenance to the west side, or is it the other way around?

zkncj · Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 40):
Terminal 2: DL International flights and SkyTeam members

That would then make AC homeless? and they wouldn't be able to use TBIT due to passengers already being pre-cleared. Unless they add an seperate arrival walkway, that leads to an sperate bag claim to pre-cleared.

carljanderson · Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:28 pm

I'm curious to see what happens to T3. If it ends up being razed (and I hope it does), then I do wonder how much impact this project will have on the airport operations.

I would imagine the 200's (Remote Gates) would have to utilized. Would love to see this project plan!

TWA85 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 42):

AC could then move to Terminal 7 with UA.

compensateme · Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:59 pm

Quoting carljanderson (Reply 43):
I'm curious to see what happens to T3. If it ends up being razed (and I hope it does), then I do wonder how much impact this project will have on the airport operations.

Logistically, razing & rebuilding T3 seems impractical. During the peak summer months, nearly 100 flights operate from T3 and NK, F9 and V6 have been expanding operations.

kgaiflyer · Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:15 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
What AA does with T5 and United with T6 is what I find truly exciting.

I'm late to the party and haven't read every reply.

Nevertheless, I'll toss out that in the recent past T-6 was pmCO on the east side to gate 64 -- and then all UA all the time from the Redondo Brewing Company to the tip.

What is it that UA must do in T-6 - that it hasn't done before - that would dazzle the old-timers?

ldvaviation · Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:57 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 32):
Thanks for the summary. Can you clarify "resiting" T5? That has me intrigued. I assume T6 is demolished and T5 somehow expanded into the T6 operational space, with all of it connected to T4 (either by today's tunnel or an airside connector similar to what has been done up at SFO between T1 and T2.

Also, my understanding is that T2 is going to be further modified to meet Delta's requirements, but T3 will be razed (thank god) and rebuilt from scratch in a different configuration which is fully integrated with T2. Meaning that T2/T3 end up with a common Delta head house with the airside facilities essentially being "concourses"? In other words, T2/T3 essentially becomes T2/Concourse A&B? And that facility would likely be connected to TBIT as well. I'm piecing different things together from different sources, but does that sound about right?

As to T5/T6, that's a good guess. When this was first envisioned, the goal on the south side was not to create one terminal complex. It was to improve in/egress in the alleys by relocating T5 between T4 and T7.

Honestly speaking, it seemed like a pipe dream to me, but kudos to LAWA, specifically the Deputy Director, for creating the political situation where this might actually happen. With AA involved in T5, there will be the opportunity to envision T4/T5 along the same lines as the new T3/T2.

On that note, this is what I have heard about the program goals on T3/T2: (1) higher ceilings in the T3 ticket lobby much like T4, (2) a connection between the T3/T2 head houses and a single TSA facility for both, (3) vertical expansion of the connector building to create a club level, (4) a new satellite building at the end of T3, (5) a connector building to TBIT, and (6) some curbside improvements (e.g., repaneling the facade and new canopy). Whether this results in a completely rebuilt T3 I don't know. (LAWA's architects are very good at reusing parts of buildings.)

MAH4546 · Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:20 pm

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 40):
Terminal 4: AA Domestic flights

Terminal 5: AA International flights and Oneworld members

AA will continue to use TBIT for international flights, and some domestic.

FSDan · Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Is there any timeline on the opening of the TBIT midfield concourse? I imagine that a T2/T3 rebuild project would be a lot easier to do if you could move the current T2/T3 airlines over to the midfield concourse at least temporarily. That would allow DL to continue operating out of T5 until T2/T3 is ready.

I'm definitely most interested to see where the current T3 airlines end up. VX has a fairly significant operation out of LAX and NK has been growing... Also, wherever AS ends up they will need a decent amount of international arrivals gates to accommodate their Mexico operations. I could see them staying in T6 with Y4, AV, CM, and AC moving in.

Potential end state:
T1 - WN
T2/T3 - DL, AM, VS, VA, (maybe KL?), WS, +WN international arrivals
T4/T5 - AA, maybe some AS?
T6 - AS, AV, CM, AC, Y4
T7/T8 - UA
TBIT - International airlines
TBIT midfield - International airlines + VX, NK, F9, G4

A T2/T3 to TBIT connector could facilitate connections between DL and all the SkyTeam longhaul airlines. Also, UA could maybe build some sort of connector between T6 and T7 to allow connections to their North American Star Alliance partners.

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