konrad
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Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:10 pm

This is a question to our members from Russia with some good memory or the times well past: In 1970-1974 what would be the most popular type of passenger airliner in the Aeroflot fleet? I am referring to short-haul flights on popular routes within the European part of CCCP, such as Moscow - Leningrad, Kiev or Simferopol? Also, which airport in Moscow would be used for such flights, SVO or VKO? Many thanks for your kind help.
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:15 pm

I read somewhere that Aeroflot in those days had the biggest fleet in the world and have wanted to ask about that for a long time. Is this true? What was the fleet size? I do know people who travelled back then from Germany to Iran via Moscow on Aeroflot.
 
kaitak
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:16 pm

I would imagine that for the busier roads, like LED-MOW and MOW-MSQ and other major cities, the two most popular types would have been the Tu-154 and 134, with the 124 also there. However, there wasn't much of an alternative to these in that the IL62 was mostly used for long haul flights and the only other jet, the Yak-40 was far too small.

Sheremetievo 1 (S-2 wasn't open until 1980, in an effort to persuade foreign visitors never to come back) and VKO would probably have been the major airports; probably DME too?
 
konrad
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:21 pm

Wasn't the Il-18 100pax turboprop quad still in use at that time?
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:26 pm

@Turkish350XWB: it is true
 
Burkhard
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:59 pm

The original poster asked for the period 1970-1974.

The Tu 154, which later was the major workhorse, had its first passagner revenue flight in 1972, so it had a little role.
The Tu 134 entered service in 1967, so quite some were around in the questioned time.
The Yak 40 entered service in 1968, so quite some were around in the questioned time

The Tu 104 was built between 1956 and 1960, about 200 aircraft, most of them were still around with Aeroflot until 1981.
The Tu 114
The Tu 124 was in service between 1962 and 1985, 165 built, so again most of them with Aeroflot.
Il 62, in service since 1976, until 1999 292 aircraft built, so in service in some numbers, but not the most frequent one.

So as long as it comes to jetliners, I would estimate that in 1970 the Tu104 was the most frequent one, around the mid 70s the Tu134 will have taken over.

But there were propliners:
Il 18 in service since 1959, 650 built, about 530 for Aeroflot, most of them should have still been around in 1970-
Il 12 in service since 1949, 663 built, most for Aeroflot, most of them should have still been around in 1970-
Il 14 , FF in 1950, 1122 built, most for Aeroflot - I think this is the winner.
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:17 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 5):
The original poster asked for the period 1970-1974.

very right listing!

most probably the flights domestic would have been on IL-12/14 or IL-18, some international routs would have been on the IL-18, many on the IL-62 (classic, not "NG" D-30 version). far east and asian routs as well as cuba might have been on the TU-114, although already in the high density version, not with the "sleeper" bed sections. tue tu-154 (classic and A versions) were regarded as very new at that time and used to the south of russia, i.e. serving the kavkas area as well as some republics such as armenia (evn).but there were not very many active at the time. although it was already regarded as a great aircraft, offering unseen performance at the time, even with the rather weak NK-8 engines. later these engines found their way onto the ILW as NK-86, and even with this engine nightmare the ILW was a great plane. the NK8 was rather thirsty, but very reliable - at the times of development, nobody gave a f**k about fuel burn, but rather was focussing on a low amount of crashes! to understand the NK-8 and the follow up D-30 (which is mounted on the TU5 as D-30KU-154 and on the IL7 and D-30KU): the IL6 classic was outperformed nearly by double on all characteristics by the IL-62M with the D-30. in other therms: a D-30 is the most one can achieve out of traditional turbofan manufacturing!!!

my oldest TU-134 i flew in was a UT Air 1976 A model, which was in service still in 2010, the TU-134 was regarded as a prestige jet at the time you are requesting, and served many foreign destinations. the TU-134 was an awesome piece of aeronautical art, developed from the 124 model, with the first prototypes being designated TU-124A (if i am not mistaken). at the time in question, some were already around not only serving SU, but many other airlines as well. the dino TU-134 has a shorter fuselage compared to the 134A models, as well as no reversers on the D-30 series I (was it series I???, i might be mistaken. the last TU3 carry series D30-III). so you might have gotten a TU3 on a certain international route ( i.e MOW- KBP- VIE). malev, interflug and tabso operated the dino TU3, as well as SU's baltic dispatches. generally the older TU-124 got replaced by the dino TU3, so you will find these in RIX, TLL and VNO, as well as MOW.

the IL8 performed most of the challenging routs in queation. until today russian pilots get wet eyes while speaking of the IL8. it is the only airliner that can take full fuel, full cargo (and pax) and fly like it was a dream. i spoke to russian 744 pilots, and when they talked about the IL8, they all got wet eyes!!!!! the IL8 is said to be one of the best airliners ever built, and could even be operated profitable today. the IL8 burns about 1.7 tons per 100 pax/ hour (acc to pilots that flew it, first hour 1,9, following 1,4!). i flew on the IL8 in the DPRK and would prefer it over a A320/B737.

to sum it up: at the time it was:
long range: TU-114 and TU-114D (cuba VIP) as well as IL6 NK8 version and first routing of TU5 to far east
medium/ short range: IL8, TU3 and maybe IL4, TU5 to kavkas, TU-124
short and commuter: IL8, IL-12, IL4 and YK4, as well as IL6 and TU3. TU5 on route testing. TU-124 in the baltics and scandinavia. maybe YK4 and MI-8. AN-2 (this beast was everywhere)!!!!!!!

as a side note, cpt. mostovoy made an emergency landing in the neva river, cpt. sully did a similar thing in the hudson. it might be interesting for you to get into this story, as it is breath taking, especially the saving of the watered TU-124 - and the place it landed in (in-between two bridges).
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
konrad
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:32 pm

Dear Ty134A and Burkhard: thank you very much! This is amazing how much collective wisdom one can find on airliners.net. I was not sure about the entry into service of the early Ty-154, however, I heard about the performance of the Ilyushin-18 and what a great work horse it was. A 737 of the 60/70s Soviet era one could say. Supposedly, some operators in Eastern Europe, such as Interflug, Balkan and LOT kept flying the Il-18 till the end of the 80s.

Ty134A: when you write AN2 your mean the An-24 50pax turboprop or the old biplane An-2?
The story of the Ty-124 ditching in the Neva is a fantastic read.
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:43 pm

ohhh... and yes, i totally forgot the AN-24, which is more or less a medium range 50 seater that was being deployed as well during these days. up until today the AN-24 (AN4) is an indestructible machine, but the technology is VERY dated. back then it was a great airliner.

i actually meant the AN-2 biplane, that had kind of a unique role. its role more or less was to replace helicopters with its better performance and higher capacity, and very much lower operating cost. it was/is a 12seat aircraft and therefore was perfectly suited to reach very exposed and rural areas. it only needed about 250 meters of unpaved runway and is a very rugged design.

even though SU didn't have a lot of planes at the time (compared to the late 80ies) its route network was sheer awesome in size and complexity. often you would find routings with way more than 10 stops, sometimes connecting smallest villages otherwise unreachable. and the an-2 did play a great and vital role in this, with some routs still flown by this type.

Quoting konrad (Reply 7):
Ty134A: when you write AN2 your mean the An-24 50pax turboprop or the old biplane An-2?
The story of the Ty-124 ditching in the Neva is a fantastic read.

if you like that, google on "alrosa izhma"! you will love this as well!!! by the way, the pilot landing the TU5 in izhma was cpt andrey lamanov. i had the pleasure to get to know this "hero of russia" (highest honor in russia) personally on a TU5 trip. he, and all of his crew were fascinating and real TU5 freaks, in love with this airliner! and the stories to his landing in izhma are unforgettable to me...also some material on youtube!
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
RIX
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:39 pm

Based on what I myself saw at the airports in early 70-s, Il18/Tu134 with Tu104 still around, and An24/Yak40 with Il14 still around. To see Tu114 or Il62 was "a privilege", sort of widebody on intra-US route today.



Quoting konrad (Reply 7):
Ilyushin-18... what a great work horse it was. A 737 of the 60/70s Soviet era

What a wonderful way to put it. If you ask me about a single type that was a "face" of Aeroflot of that era, I say Il18 with no moment of a doubt. Same as Tu154 in the era that followed, even though neither was an official flagship.
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:35 pm

aaaaand we forgot the bumblebee "pcholka" AN-14, that subsequently was added/replaced to the AN-2 fleet.
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
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Revelation
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:59 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
I would imagine that for the busier roads, like LED-MOW and MOW-MSQ and other major cities, the two most popular types would have been the Tu-154 and 134, with the 124 also there.

Well, dear kaitak, whether you meant it or not you lead me to do a walk through the Wikipedia pages of all the Tupolev airliners!

I have to say I was most impressed by the Tu-104 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-104 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Aeroflot_Tupolev_Tu-104B_at_Arlanda%2C_July_1972.jpg

My goodness, what a captivating sight!

I realize it was a first generation jet airliner, but can you imagine boarding an a/c with a five person (probably men, but then again the USSR had a lot of women in traditionally male roles) crew (pilot, co-pilot, engineer, radio operator and navigator) just for 50 passengers? And the navigator was sat under the the main flight deck in the "bomber" glazed nose that came from the Tu-16 'Badger' bomber that was the source of much of its technology? And also can you imagine upon landing feeling the jerk as the drag chute deployed? OMG that must have been so, uhm, primal! I wish I had such an experience!

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 6):
most probably the flights domestic would have been on IL-12/14 or IL-18, some international routs would have been on the IL-18, many on the IL-62 (classic, not "NG" D-30 version). far east and asian routs as well as cuba might have been on the TU-114, although already in the high density version, not with the "sleeper" bed sections. tue tu-154 (classic and A versions) were regarded as very new at that time and used to the south of russia, i.e. serving the kavkas area as well as some republics such as armenia (evn).but there were not very many active at the time. although it was already regarded as a great aircraft, offering unseen performance at the time

Thanks for sharing this and the rest of your incredible information!

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 6):
even with the rather weak NK-8 engines. later these engines found their way onto the ILW as NK-86, and even with this engine nightmare the ILW was a great plane. the NK8 was rather thirsty, but very reliable - at the times of development, nobody gave a f**k about fuel burn, but rather was focussing on a low amount of crashes! to understand the NK-8 and the follow up D-30 (which is mounted on the TU5 as D-30KU-154 and on the IL7 and D-30KU): the IL6 classic was outperformed nearly by double on all characteristics by the IL-62M with the D-30. in other therms: a D-30 is the most one can achieve out of traditional turbofan manufacturing!!!

Paging lightsaber!

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 6):
to sum it up: at the time it was:
long range: TU-114 and TU-114D (cuba VIP) as well as IL6 NK8 version and first routing of TU5 to far east
medium/ short range: IL8, TU3 and maybe IL4, TU5 to kavkas, TU-124
short and commuter: IL8, IL-12, IL4 and YK4, as well as IL6 and TU3. TU5 on route testing. TU-124 in the baltics and scandinavia. maybe YK4 and MI-8. AN-2 (this beast was everywhere)!!!!!!!

I am just wondering why do you prefer to write "TU" when the web sites seem to prefer "Tu"?

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 6):
as a side note, cpt. mostovoy made an emergency landing in the neva river, cpt. sully did a similar thing in the hudson. it might be interesting for you to get into this story, as it is breath taking, especially the saving of the watered TU-124 - and the place it landed in (in-between two bridges).

One place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Ae...Tupolev_Tu-124_Neva_river_ditching
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Ty134A
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:31 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
I am just wondering why do you prefer to write "TU" when the web sites seem to prefer "Tu"?

it's easier to read and i kind of dislike "Il" over "IL".

on a side note: i just dug out a book i bought in a bookstore in hollywood in 1999, it is called "soviet transport aircraft since 1945" by john stroud (see here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soviet-Trans...ircraft-Since-1945/dp/0370001265).

first of all a side note: the smell of an old book, the feel of it's pages and printed pictures is some times soooo much better than a tablet and wiping pages!

the book i believe was published in 1968 and therefore offers a great overview of the status quo of the time and shows a glimpse onto the next years, being the one in question (your post).

the TU5 is already pictured (prototypes), the IL6 as well. there are even the first mock ups of the TU-144 sst pictured. one page is dedicated to the TU-80, which is essentially a B-29 style TU-4 mod, even with a cabin picture. this is an extremely rare piece of aviation history and still shows train style head rest covers in the TU-80, much as JS had them in their IL6 until not too long ago in business!

the majority of the book covers the IL-12 and 14 in all its versions and roles, therefore showing the amount of these planes at the time. the IL8 was already rolled out in bigger numbers in 1968, even though the IL-18 "MOSKVA" piston version was also mentioned (but also mentioned being obsolete).

i just had a quick chat with a few relatives and an old russian cpt, and they basically confirmed that most of the traffic at the time was VERY local ops with AN-2, maybe MIL helicopters (mi-8 was new at the time). the SU network majority was formed around local "capitols" that served the rural areas by small acft (AN-2 e.g.) with the bigger ones (IL-12/14) connecting the local "capitols" on VERY multistop legs that essentially linked these towns to major cities, e.g. leningrad, moscow, sverdlovsk, krasnoyarsk, magadan, vladivostok, petropavlovsk, but also erevan, baku, tashkent (big SU hub at a time). you need to understand that at the time in question, the very centralized soviet union was on other levels very de-centralized, and moscow was far away and played no role for locals. also the standard of living was much greater at the time than one would expect from what one learned in the west. the equality had the plus of everybody having a the basics needed for living, there were no homeless people in the soviet union, and for a quarter of a monthly salary you could buy a ticket with SU. but bare in mind that housing, medical treatment, schools and other state services were free of charge. this came at the price of having no chance to fly abroad and not build up wealth. but considering the things i have seen on this planet and what kind of wealth capitalism is able to provide to the majority of the people of this planet, i am sure that they would be better off in a sovet union of the 70s than in a free third, second and to some social classes even first world country.... but that is a different story!

the TU-104 was, due to it's speed, seen on longer routings with several stops, connecting the mega cities of the soviet union. the tu-124 was not very widely spread and mainly served moscow and the baltics (LED was considered more or less a baltic region). the upcoming TU-134 was spread much wider...

the IL6 was SUs flagship and thus served domestic prestige routs but generally shown off on international routs.

thats about the picture of the time. i am now 33 years old, and i could spend the rest of my life getting a bit into detail with this... hahahaha, but i still have other things to do. if you need more info, just send me a PM, if you need it for some kind of diploma work or so, i can provide you with reliable sources as well! and last but not least i really wish (if you haven't so far) that you can ride a classic soviet airliner once, they are getting so rare nowadays!
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
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Revelation
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:38 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 12):
it's easier to read and i kind of dislike "Il" over "IL".

That makes sense, thanks!

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 12):
and for a quarter of a monthly salary you could buy a ticket with SU

That seems cheap, so where people like us (airplane nuts!) spending a lot of time traveling? Or was it hard to get a ticket or time off from work?

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 12):
the TU-104 was, due to it's speed, seen on longer routings with several stops, connecting the mega cities of the soviet union.

Interesting!

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 12):
the upcoming TU-134 was spread much wider...

Looks to have similar usage to Caravelle/DC9.

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 12):
i really wish (if you haven't so far) that you can ride a classic soviet airliner once, they are getting so rare nowadays!

Even more rare in North America. I've been to most of the popular aviation museums in the US and don't recall seeing a Soviet airliner, never mind seeing one still flying. Lots of Soviet military a/c though, usually MiG fighters. For some reason they seem to have been "imported" quite regularly!  
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
vv701
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:34 pm

I have a booklet published somewhat earlier (1962) titled 'Operator's Aircraft Registrations', 'First English Language Edition', published in Vevey, Switzerland by World Traffic Editions.

It gives the aircraft then operated by Aeroflot as:

CCCP-L5400, Tu-104 Prototype
CCCP-42300 to CCCP-42459, Tu-104 (160 aircraft)
CCCP-42400 to CCCP-42499, Tu104A/B/C (40 aircraft assuming '42400' is a typo for '42460'
CCCP75600 to CCCP-75800. IL-18 Moskwa (201 aircraft)

But, for example, no IL-14s. They may be omitted because they did not fly regularly into Western Europe.

This gives some idea of the size of Aeroflot back then. The 201 Tu-104s confirms:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 5):
The Tu 104 was built between 1956 and 1960, about 200 aircraft
 
eielef
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RE: Historical Question On Aeroflot Fleet

Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:58 am

http://russianplanes.net/airline/72
There you have the complete historical fleet from Aeroflot, with their regs, MSN, year built, company that it served, latest reg (the CCCP changed into RA, or even UR, UK, EK, EY, etc). It's a very long page (over 120mb) so be really patient.
The page is in Russian, and there is no way of translate it into english. Just make your self a short guide of what the following terms: порезан, катастрофа, летает, авария, на хранении. - Those are the posible status of the planes today. It, sometimes, shows when was its last flight, and how many hours and cycles it has achieved giving a percentage of it's estimated life time. There are few planes with over twice of its life time. They were expected to last 20 years, but they been flying almost 40... (or 20000 hours and now close to 40000).
It will also help you if you had on hand a Soviet Map in Russian.
See that Aeroflot had a mayor restructuration in the mid 60s, creating multiple airlines, operating all by the Aeroflot Soviet Airlines brand.
http://russianplanes.net/Aeroflot
That's mostly the organigram of Aeroflot. With a map, you'll easily find that, for instance, Маганский ОАО was the Aeroflot Branch based in Magadan (GDX). It operated as a separate company between 1958 and 1993, when it bankrupted. They operated a few helicopters (Mi8 and Mi4), but around 25 Let410 and another 25 An2.
Aeroflot Soviet Airlines had (at least according to this page, which took me over a month to understand it), over 17500 planes. At one given point in the late 70s it was flying more than 8000 planes/helicopters simultaneously. And it had a lovely safety record of one accident every three days. It also has a few thousand photos, old and actual.

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