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8herveg
Topic Author
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Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:02 pm

I know this has been discussed numerous times on here, so please feel free to delete if someone can locate me the previous discussions - I can't find them!

Which of BA's long-haul aircraft are being refitted and what's their current status? Which one's have been done so far and when will the rest be done by?

I was on a BOM-LHR flight last week on one of their B777's with no First - a completely different (worse) experience than the B789 that I flew out on to DEL. I was in World Traveller.

I know not all B777 and B747's are being refitted - but which ones?

Thanks.
 
Andy33
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:29 pm

The 744 programme will convert 18 aircraft to the 14F/86J/30W/135Y configuration.
G-CIVF, IVS, IVW, G-BYGE have been done. C-CIVG, IVH, IVI, IVR, IVV, IVX, IVY, IVZ, G-BYGA, YGB, YGC, YGD, YGF, YGG will be done at around 2 per month between now and August. The aircraft get new IFE, refreshed Y and W cabins, and new interior panels. Of the remaining 22 744s, 4 will be withdrawn this year, and the other 18 will continue as they are until withdrawals start with the arrival of A350-1000s in 2018.
773s of course scarcely need any refits yet.
Some 772s have been refitted, others have not. In November BA announced that 772s would all go to 3 class (no First), but there are no dates for this yet, or details of what else would be done to the planes at the same time.
To see which have been refitted under previous programmes, look here:
http://www.thebasource.com/boeing777-200er.html
and
http://www.thebasource.com/boeing777-200.html
The key features to look for are 2010 style Y cabin and Thales IFE.
 
8herveg
Topic Author
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:28 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 1):

The 744 programme will convert 18 aircraft to the 14F/86J/30W/135Y configuration.
G-CIVF, IVS, IVW, G-BYGE have been done. C-CIVG, IVH, IVI, IVR, IVV, IVX, IVY, IVZ, G-BYGA, YGB, YGC, YGD, YGF, YGG will be done at around 2 per month between now and August. The aircraft get new IFE, refreshed Y and W cabins, and new interior panels. Of the remaining 22 744s, 4 will be withdrawn this year, and the other 18 will continue as they are until withdrawals start with the arrival of A350-1000s in 2018.
773s of course scarcely need any refits yet.
Some 772s have been refitted, others have not. In November BA announced that 772s would all go to 3 class (no First), but there are no dates for this yet, or details of what else would be done to the planes at the same time.
To see which have been refitted under previous programmes, look here:
http://www.thebasource.com/boeing777-200er.html
and
http://www.thebasource.com/boeing777-200.html
The key features to look for are 2010 style Y cabin and Thales IFE.

Thanks - that's really helpful!

So all First cabins are really going from all B777 aircraft? That seems like a lot of premium seats gone! Even for routes like JFK, EWR, BGI etc?? Seems rather excessive.

Also, just to clarify, is the only difference between the 2000 and 2010 World Traveller and World Traveller Plus seats the IFE? The actual seat is exactly the same, right?
 
EMB170
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:47 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 2):
Also, just to clarify, is the only difference between the 2000 and 2010 World Traveller and World Traveller Plus seats the IFE? The actual seat is exactly the same, right?

I don't think so. The old Y and W seats were different than what the new ones are. My understanding is that the 744s and 772s are in the process of getting the new seats (most 772s are finished, 744s from the above post have a little more ways to go), while the 77W, 380, and 788/789 fleet of course all feature the new seats fresh from the factory. I hear from seatguru that generally speaking in W the new seats are preferable to the old ones, even though the old ones all featured an electric reclining legrest (La-z-boy style) and the new ones don't unless you're in the first row of W...someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'll be flying to LHR from PHL in W on the 788 in March and returning in Y on the 772. It will be interesting to see the difference between the two. Any thoughts from experienced travelers on what to expect?
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
Andy33
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:54 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 2):
So all First cabins are really going from all B777 aircraft? That seems like a lot of premium seats gone! Even for routes like JFK, EWR, BGI etc?? Seems rather excessive.

Also, just to clarify, is the only difference between the 2000 and 2010 World Traveller and World Traveller Plus seats the IFE? The actual seat is exactly the same, right?

The BA statement referred to the 772/772-ER fleet, not the 77Ws. That's roughly 30 aircraft likely to lose First. The rest of the 772-ERs never had First to begin with.
But they'll still have 744s, A380s, 77Ws, 789s and, coming soon, A350s and 787-10s all with First.
And we don't know what the configuration of the new refit programme will be. If the F seats are replaced with slightly more J, for example, there's no loss of premium seats in total.

As far as I know the seat design didn't change in WT, apart from changes forced by IFE alterations. Not sure about WTP.
 
BA0197
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:38 pm

I do believe that, although the Investor's Day presentation did say 772/772ERs, it was wrong. Several sources of mine have told me that the presentation was referring only to the few LHR-based, RR-equipped 777s (that actually have a 4-class cabin, as some LHR-based, RR eqipped 772s already have a 3-class cabin) that would be converted to be non-F equipped. All GE-powered 777s at LHR would remain with a F cabin.
 
vv701
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:33 pm

In addition to the conversion of 18 'Hi J' configured for 299 (F14 / J70 / W30 / Y185) 744s to the new 'Super Hi J' configuration, the six 'Hi J' 744s configured for 291 passengers, G-BNLK, 'LN, 'LO, 'LP, G-CIVM and 'VO, have all recently been converted to the standard 337 seat 'Mid J' (F14 / J52 / W36 / Y235) configuration. The first to be converted ('VM) was returned to service on 3 October last. The final such conversion ('LK) re-entered service on 30 October.

After the retirement of three aircraft not in this conversion and refresh programme, G-BNLF, 'LW and 'LX, BA will have an operational fleet of 39 744s, with 18 in the new 'Super Hi J' configuration primarily dedicated to flights to BOS, JFK, LOS and ORD, and 21 in the 'Mid J' configuration.

The new IFE system in this fleet is the Panasonic eX3 System. The refresh programme includes new curtains, carpets, wall panels and lighting throughout. It also includes new seat covers in the W and Y Class cabins, the fitting of a universal power socket accepting British, American and European plugs to W Class seats and a USB socket to power both phones and tablets to Y Class seats.

In the 2014 IAG Markets Day Meeting BA stated that they were obtaining a lower yield per square metre from their F Class cabin than in any of their other three cabins. That is no doubt why their new 787-9s have an eight seat F Class cabin, the smallest in any of their current or earlier 4-class-cabin aircraft and why they are planning a significantly sized 772 fleet all with no F Class cabin. It is also relevant that they have stated they plan to operate their 772s for 30 years. So it is worth noting that their oldest 772 (G-ZZZA) was delivered in May 1996, their youngest (G-YMMU) in July 2009 but all but four delivered before November 2001. This suggests to me that we can expect to see 772s in BA's long haul fleet to around 2030 or possibly a little later. So they will be operating alongside 4-class configured 744s, 77Ws, 787-9s, 787-10s and 350s for quite a long time.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:06 pm

There seems to be a repeated assumption that every BA 772 is losing F, but as a number of people point out it is only the 9 RR 777-236ERs (G-YMMG - G-YMML / G-YMMN - G-YMMP). The BA investor's day presentation referred to the 772ER losing F, which in BA terms is the RR birds, while the GE birds are 772. The RR birds have overhead crew rest, hence why they are internally 772ER and the GE birds are 772.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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TedToToe
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:38 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 7):
There seems to be a repeated assumption that every BA 772 is losing F, but as a number of people point out it is only the 9 RR 777-236ERs (G-YMMG - G-YMML / G-YMMN - G-YMMP). The BA investor's day presentation referred to the 772ER losing F, which in BA terms is the RR birds, while the GE birds are 772. The RR birds have overhead crew rest, hence why they are internally 772ER and the GE birds are 772.

Based on three class 763's leaving the fleet and four class 789's joining, that makes much more sense. Overall, a modest reduction in F capacity in line with the 2014 Markets Day information which VV701 mentioned.
 
Andy33
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:04 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 7):
The BA investor's day presentation referred to the 772ER losing F, which in BA terms is the RR birds, while the GE birds are 772. The RR birds have overhead crew rest, hence why they are internally 772ER and the GE birds are 772.

Interesting, I didn't know there were internal differences to industry standard used in describing the BA 777 fleet. So how do BA distinguish between the 3 GE-engined non-ER 777-236s and the much larger number of GE-engined 777-236ERs?
United, for example, use 77A for this purpose within their fleet of 777s. Clearly BA must make a distinction as the non-ER frames have a different seating configuration and a different range.
And when the Investors Day presentation talked about extending the service life of 777s to 30 years, did they mean literally that, or were they referring only to a subset of 777s.
Seems a bit odd to use internal type codes in talking to investors who almost by definition won't know what they mean, even though they may be very familiar with the airline industry generally.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:45 am

When I first read the piece I thought BA were ending First Class from LGW, then realised it is not on the GE aircraft.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:51 am

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 9):
Seems a bit odd to use internal type codes in talking to investors who almost by definition won't know what they mean, even though they may be very familiar with the airline industry generally.

Smoke and mirrors, this gives businesses plenty of wriggle room in the future if plans change, clear definitive statements either have to be carried out or there has to be an admission that things have changed.

They all do it regardless of line of business and nationality.
 
tonystan
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:15 pm

Just FYI regarding updated Y and WTP seats...

The 744's undergoing the Super Hi-J return are NOT receiving the new WT/WTP seating which is presently on all 788/789, A380, 773 and a large number of the 772's. The old seats are simply being reupholstered to a similar palette as the other aircraft and they will also have new IFE installed aswell as USB ports.

One can only assume at this stage that something similar will be done with the remaining 777's when the removal of first begins assuming they decide not to give the full upgrade as the other 777s.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
vv701
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:06 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 9):
So how do BA distinguish between the 3 GE-engined non-ER 777-236s and the much larger number of GE-engined 777-236ERs?
United, for examp

Of course BA operate a significant number of sub-fleets. An obvious example is the 'Super Hi J', 'Hi J' and 'Mid J' 744 fleets BA is operating today. So it was reported here on a.net that the ten A 320s recently fitted with Sharklets were in the BA fleet planning 'H3' A 320 sub-fleet. There are additional two different cabin configurations amongst those 320s without sharklets. Those primarily based at LHR are configured for up to 168 Y Class passengers. Those exclusively based at LGW are configured for up to 171 Y Class passengers. Further, 320s that are configured for 168 passengers include aircraft both with and without drop-down video screens.

In terms of the BA 772 fleet it is worth remembering that there are currently five obvious sub-fleets:

!. Three 772As configured for 214 passengers, F17 / J46 / W24 / Y127 (G-ZZZA to 'ZC)

2. Eighteen 772ERs configured for 226 passengers, F14 / J48 / W40 / Y124 (G-RAES, G-VIIA to 'IH, G-VIIJ to 'IN, G-VIIS and G-VIIV to 'IY)

3. Five 772ERs configured for 283 passengers, J40 / W24 / Y219 (G-VIIO, G-VIIP, G-VIIR, G-VIIT and G-VIIU)

4. Thirteen 772ERs configured for 219 passengers, F12 / J48 / W32 / Y127 (G-YMMG to 'ML and G-YMMN to 'MP and G-YMMR to 'MU)

5. Ten 772ERs configured for 275 passengers, J48 / W24 / Y203 (G-YMMA to 'MF and G-YMMR to 'MU)
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:01 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 13):
!. Three 772As configured for 214 passengers, F17 / J46 / W24 / Y127 (G-ZZZA to 'ZC)

2. Eighteen 772ERs configured for 226 passengers, F14 / J48 / W40 / Y124 (G-RAES, G-VIIA to 'IH, G-VIIJ to 'IN, G-VIIS and G-VIIV to 'IY)

3. Five 772ERs configured for 283 passengers, J40 / W24 / Y219 (G-VIIO, G-VIIP, G-VIIR, G-VIIT and G-VIIU)

4. Thirteen 772ERs configured for 219 passengers, F12 / J48 / W32 / Y127 (G-YMMG to 'ML and G-YMMN to 'MP and G-YMMR to 'MU)

5. Ten 772ERs configured for 275 passengers, J48 / W24 / Y203 (G-YMMA to 'MF and G-YMMR to 'MU)

Nearly but not quite!
1. Correct at LHR
2. There are 19 there, 15 at LHR and 4 at LGW.
3,Correct at LGW
4.MMR MMS MMT and MMU are now 275 seats so only 9 left at 219 seats.
5.Correct 8 at LHR and 2 at LGW.

Makes 11 B772 at LGW and 35 at LHR. BA has separate codes for LHR and LGW aircraft even though they are identical.

Also the 271 seat A320 at LGW will have 3 more seats fitted this spring to make them 174 seats.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:33 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 14):
Also the 271 seat A320 at LGW will have 3 more seats fitted this spring to make them 174 seats.

Under no circumstances am I booking this aircraft. Ever 
 
steve6666
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:38 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 9):
Interesting, I didn't know there were internal differences to industry standard used in describing the BA 777 fleet. So how do BA distinguish between the 3 GE-engined non-ER 777-236s and the much larger number of GE-engined 777-236ERs?

From memory, I think the GE powered ER machines are referred to as "IGW" (Increased Gross Weight?).
Was on ZZZA on Sunday, and saw that was referred to as a "77P" when I checked in.
Can't remember what the RR engined ones are referred to.
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vv701
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:06 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 14):
2. There are 19 there, 15 at LHR and 4 at LGW

Thanks. Can't count.  
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 14):
4.MMR MMS MMT and MMU are now 275 seats so only 9 left at 219 seats

Thanks again. Double counting here. I included these 4 in both (4) and (5).  
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:26 pm

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 16):
Was on ZZZA on Sunday, and saw that was referred to as a "77P" when I checked in.
Can't remember what the RR engined ones are referred to.

ZZA ia called a P7 in our flight planning system and 77X in Amadeus.
The other fleets are V7 W7 and L7 at LHR and U7 K7 and H7 at LGW (and G7 for the 300ER)

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 16):
From memory, I think the GE powered ER machines are referred to as "IGW" (Increased Gross Weight?).

Yes they are B777-200IGW. They were heavier with a full size centre tank and bigger engines, but not quite ER standard
 
georgiabill
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:04 pm

Could we see BA take additional end of 777W'S to help speed up retirement of their 744 fleet?
 
Andy33
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:22 pm

Quoting georgiabill (Reply 19):
Could we see BA take additional end of 777W'S to help speed up retirement of their 744 fleet

#
A regular question, which people will probably keep asking until the 77W drops out of Boeing's catalogue, or the last 744 leaves for the breakers. Never say never, but:
There are 40 744s left. Four will be withdrawn this year, replaced by a combination of A388 and 789 deliveries.
Then there's the 744 cabin refresh programme, which is about 25% of the way through and will be completed in August, involving 18 744s. These get new IFE, new side panels, new seat covers and so on,and a major increase in J seating. The parts for this will probably have already been delivered.
There are 18 other 744s that will see this year out, and next, but don't get the refresh.
These will be replaced by A350-1000s from 2018 onwards. There are also 787-10s on order.
 
Eirules
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:43 pm

What routes will see the updated 744s?

On a different topic, when are we likely to see a new BA J product? To me they missed an opportunity when the A380s & 787s were delivered
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bgm
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 21):
What routes will see the updated 744s?

LHR-LOS-LHR (BA075/74). Daily
LHR-DXB-LHR (BA107/06). Daily
LHR-JFK-LHR (BA113/16). 3 x weekly
LHR-JFK-LHR (BA115/14). Daily
LHR-KWI-LHR (BA157/56). Daily
LHR-JFK-LHR (BA175/12). Daily
LHR-RUH-LHR (BA263/62). 2 x weekly
LHR-ORD-LHR (BA295/94). Daily 
 
skipness1E
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:14 am

The G-VII* were delivered as IGWs as Uncle Boeing did not want to use the ER nomenclature for the 777. Over time they gave up and today, they're known as B777-236ERs, indeed G-VIIA was the first non A model off the line.
 
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TedToToe
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:01 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):

The G-VII* were delivered as IGWs as Uncle Boeing did not want to use the ER nomenclature for the 777. Over time they gave up and today, they're known as B777-236ERs, indeed G-VIIA was the first non A model off the line.

I wonder if that was a factor in the decision to repair G-VIIO; if getting an equivalent IGW, and not ER, on the secondhand market would be difficult.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Status Of British Airways Long-haul Aircraft Refit

Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:10 am

Quoting tedtotoe (Reply 24):
I wonder if that was a factor in the decision to repair G-VIIO; if getting an equivalent IGW, and not ER, on the secondhand market would be difficult.

I think the point is that they're the same model, the 77E if you will. The B777-200IGW became known as the B777-200ER very quickly, I remember it being a faff at the time.

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