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cedarjet
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Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:45 pm

When Pan Am bought National Airlines in 1980, they inherited about sixteen DC-10s. Six were long haul -30s and the rest short haul -10s. Looking at the database, they popped up in the traditional National domestic transcon strongholds such as MIA, JFK, LAX, IAH, TPA, SFO etc, and the -30s also made it to London (LHR and LGW), Frankfurt, Paris (ORY), Stockholm, and Toronto.

The entire lot seems to have gone to American Airlines in 1984 (including N80NA which was written off in a non-fatal landing accident as N139AA at DFW on April 14, 1993) and then gradually dispersed to Hawaiian, Aeroflot etc.

Since Pan Am also operated the L1011-500 around the same time (another interesting topic btw), were the DC-10s a good fit, where else did they fly, and did you fly on one? Would love to know more about this overlooked chapter of Pan Am's fleet history. Since the L1011 seems to pop up in many of the same cities in the same years (ORY, LHR, LGW, FRA, plus ZRH, GIG, SAN and MUC, and in the US at MIA, JFK, IAH, LAX) it must have been an awkward marriage.

Here we have a lovely shot of a Clipper DC-10 at JFK, and one being refurbished for AA at Santa Barbara (and the two tails in the background are probably also ex PA machines):

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Bonus feature, lovely Tristars starting up at LA and Zurich:

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jfk777
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:23 pm

Its sad Pan AM did not keep their L-1011 fleet longer, even though they had Rolls Engines and most of PA fleet had P & W they would have saved PA lots of money in the slower months. United really didn't need them for Asia and PA didn't use them across the Pacific Ocean.

They were good for Latin America from Miami and smaller European markets from JFK. In the late 1980's twin engines Atlantic planes became all the rage but these still had a place in the PA fleet and would have been better for many markets then 747-100 PA has way too many of. The UA Pacific deal produced something most od us thought we would never see, United flown L-1011's.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
Six were long haul -30s and the rest short haul -10s.

Actually it was five and eleven. The fifth -30 was delivered after the merger.

http://www.planespotters.net/product...as&type=DC-10&fleetStatus=historic

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
The entire lot seems to have gone to American Airlines in 1984

No, N84NA went to UA in '85 with the Pacific network.
 
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STT757
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:51 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
Since Pan Am also operated the L1011-500 around the same time (another interesting topic btw), were the DC-10s a good fit, where else did they fly, and did you fly on one

I had a really unique experience, for Easter Break 1983 I flew EWR-TPA on a Pan Am DC-10. The return flight though was on a Pan Am L1011. Not sure why the flight down and back were different aircraft, but I'm not complaining. I think I looked it up once in an old Pan Am timetable that both legs, EWR-TPA, TPA-EWR were supposed to be on DC-10s. So the L1011 was a substitute. The flights originated in MIA, the routes were EWR-TPA-MIA-TPA-EWR.
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turk223
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:52 pm

When PA resumed JFK-BGI service in 1982, the initially started with DC-10s and later changed to the L-1011s until they finally settled on the A300s almost up until the end. I remember the DC-10s, but never flew on one of PA's...
 
flflyer
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:56 pm

Flew on the one PA 1011 as DL 761
 
skybird77
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:24 pm

Had the pleasure of flying a PA DC-10 back in August of 1981. Flew MIA-SFO with a stop at MSY. It was my first time on a 10. I remember the movie they played was Eyewitness (with Sigourney Weaver). Don't ask me how I can remember that!
 
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747d10
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:17 pm

I flew on a PA DC10 from IAH to JFK in the early 80's. IIRC, it was an all-coach configuration. I remember the seats looking really worn and tattered. The lunch (in coach) was good. I remember there was a stone crab claw included! I can remember this, but I have no idea what I had for lunch today.   
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skipness1E
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:11 am

Pan Am operated the DC10-30 JFK-PIK in summer 1983, I believe it was a charter season?
 
teneriffe77
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:13 am

I was looking in the photo of the PA/AA DC-10's at SBA I noticed a 707 in the background which I believe was the one that later crashed on takeoff at Marana during it's final flight to Davis Montana AFB. This accident is interesting in that it partially resulted from having many instruments removed over the years so the crew barely had any. BTW happened to the firm that was doing the work on those DC-10's
 
Viscount724
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:28 am

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
were the DC-10s a good fit, where else did they fly, and did you fly on one?

I flew on an ex-National Pan Am DC-10 SFO-IAH-MIA in February 1982, F class (nonrev). Returned on a Pan Am L-1011-500 nonstop MIA-SFO in J class.

Also flew on a Pan Am L-1011 SEA-LHR in F class in June 1982 and again LHR-SEA in J class in August 1982.

Pan Am's L-1011s were best avoided in Y class as they had cramped 10-abreast 3-4-3 charter-type seating, unusual for a full-service L-1011 operator. UA acquired 6 Pan Am L-1011s as part of the Pacific routes purchase deal in 1986 but only kept them about 2 years and then sold 5 of the 6 to DL (one went to LTU in Germany). UA kept the 10-abreast seating but DL eventually converted them to 9-abreast 2-5-2 to match the rest of their large L-1011 fleet.

I also recall a trip on National sometime in the mid-1970s, all in F class, a DC-10 nonstop SFO-MIA and a DC-8-50 MIA-MSY-IAH-SFO on the return trip. I used that flight intentionally as it sounded more interesting than a nonstop.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:33 am

Don't forget the AA/PA swap. AA got the DC-10's and PA got the AA 747's, a fleet simplification move. On an unrelated note I wish TWA had dumped the 747's for L-1011-500's in the late 70's but they probably didn't have the foresight or cash to do so.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
aa87
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:42 am

I flew a PA DC-10 as a kid once or twice JFK-FLL. We were a "National" family and took NA to FL at least twice a year from JFK/LGA. I recall at least one flight vividly. Completely routine but I remember thinking it was really cool to have my first flight on Pan Am (I was about 14 yo), but also, "this isn't Pan Am. This is a National DC-10, on a National route, they just painted everything in Pan Am, we leave and arrive at World Port, and the National F/As are now wearing blue PA uniforms". Yeah, actually pretty weird I was thinking that at 14, but I recall it very clearly. I guess bc I missed my National, it was taken away from me, and while flying Pan Am was the Grand Prize, I wanted my "first time" (sorry for the metaphor) to be a "real" Pan Am flight overseas.

And I'm not sure why, but soon afterwards we became a DL "family", probably bc they had far more flights from LGA to FLL.

So, I guess you triggered some long ago memories.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:49 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
Its sad Pan AM did not keep their L-1011 fleet longer

Wait...didn't UA take over those L15's from PA when UA purchased the Asian routes? Then those L15's went to DL in a
deal to swap them for WA's DC-10's?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:59 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 13):
Wait...didn't UA take over those L15's from PA when UA purchased the Asian routes? Then those L15's went to DL in a deal to swap them for WA's DC-10's?

As already mentioned in Reply 10, 6 of PA's 12 L15s went to UA as part of the Pacific routes purchase deal and 5 of those 6 went to DL about 2 years later. However, I can only find one ex-Western DC-10 that went to UA in 1989, 2 years after the DL/Western merger and about the time the 5 ex-PA L15s went to DL. That DC-10 was N906WA delivered to Western in 1975. It became N1849U at UA. It's still flying today at age 41 as an MD-10 with FedEx as N357FE.


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That aircraft's routing for the past 7 days from Flightradar24:

MEM-DTW-MEM-MCO-MEM-DFW-MEM-LAX-MEM-DFW-IND-SAN-IND-MIA-MEM-LAS-MEM
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:28 am

Quoting skybird77 (Reply 6):
Don't ask me how I can remember that!

  I have to ask how did you remember that lol.

I don't think I could ever remember an airline (maybe British Airways after the merger of BOAC and BEA) that ever had
727s,737s,747s, DC-10s Airbus A300/A310s all at the same time. In those days it was service first money second.
I wounder if PA was still flying today and financially sound I recon they would be like most airlines of today that would only run 3 makes of aircraft at the most.
I recon they would have had 777s/767s for the long haul and maybe 737s or A320s for their domestic gone are the days of 5 or 6 different types of aircraft to make up their fleets.
I only saw the PA DC-10s once I think it was 1983 at LAX.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:21 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 13):
Then those L15's went to DL in a deal to swap them for WA's DC-10's?

Only one went to UA to replace their lone -10CF. Six went to Scanair, one to MX and one to WO, both through a leasing company I believe.
 
jfk777
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:46 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 15):
don't think I could ever remember an airline (maybe British Airways after the merger of BOAC and BEA) that ever had
727s,737s,747s, DC-10s Airbus A300/A310s all at the same time

PA did not have all those planes at the same time. The DC-10 were early 1980's until they went to AA and the L-1011 were early to mid 1980 until they went to United in the Pacific route sale. The A300 were after that until the closed down.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:00 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 15):
don't think I could ever remember an airline (maybe British Airways after the merger of BOAC and BEA) that ever had
727s,737s,747s, DC-10s Airbus A300/A310s all at the same time

PA did not have all those planes at the same time. The DC-10 were early 1980's until they went to AA and the L-1011 were early to mid 1980 until they went to United in the Pacific route sale. The A300 were after that until the closed down.

Sorry but you are wrong.

Putting aside both 727 and 747 for obvious reasons, here's some data.

- A300: 12/1984-12/1991

- A310: 05/1985-10/1991

- B737: 04/1982-08/1988

- DC-10: 01/1980-04/1984 + 04/1985

- L-1011: 04/1980-02/1986

The DC-10 was almost gone when the first A300s arrived, but in 1985 you could see 727, 737, 747, A300, A310 & L1011 flying for PA.


http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/pa.html
 
n729pa
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:18 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 18):
The DC-10 was almost gone when the first A300s arrived, but in 1985 you could see 727, 737, 747, A300, A310 & L1011 flying for PA

Thanks SpaceshipDC10, you just bet me to it.


I think that was just a part of Pan Am's trouble, a wide range of different types, manufacturers, engine makers etc, not a lot of consistency.

But I remember the Pan Am Tristars at LHR towards the end of their time there, for a while at least they used to operate the LHR-DTW PA55 flight, before the A310s took over.


BTW BA never had 727s, A300 or A310 either. The DC10s came courtesy of BCal (who also had the A310 but non-standard for what BA wanted then).
the A300/A310 wasn't around when BA was formed out of BOAC/BEA.
 
fishmeal
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:37 pm

On the day Braniff shut down in 1982 we were scheduled to fly with them from IAH to LGW via DFW. My wife knew a gate agent at the Pan Am ticket counter in Houston: he got us on the Pan Am flight to LGW. We rode business class on one of their L1011's. Two weeks later American had already taken over the DFW - LGW route and they took pity on us, letting us on the 747, again using our Braniff tickets. The L1011 flight was smooth and uneventful and we didn't have to connect through DFW!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:01 pm

Quoting n729pa (Reply 19):
I think that was just a part of Pan Am's trouble, a wide range of different types, manufacturers, engine makers etc, not a lot of consistency.

Either I don't know or don't remember why PA ordered L1011s? As I have probably said before they should have ordered the same DC-10-40s as JL, they would have had a very capable and smaller aircraft with PW-engines.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:22 pm

Some of the tens were used domestically. I recall deadheading on one JFK-MIA.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
jfk777
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 21):

Either I don't know or don't remember why PA ordered L1011s? As I have probably said before they should have ordered the same DC-10-40s as JL, they would have had a very capable and smaller aircraft with PW-engines.

Try getting those plans financed and the answer to your question get answered. The British Government financed the order, as I recall because L-1011 have Rolls engines, and that caused a political scandal in the UK at the time. PA had tough finances then and this was a way for them to get new airplanes. Dc-10-40 make sense when your can get financing by conventional means.
 
imagoagnitio
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:56 pm

Quoting n729pa (Reply 19):

BTW BA did have 727's

N284AT (c/n 19151), N287AT (c/n 18805),
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:58 pm

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 24):
BTW BA did have 727's

N284AT (c/n 19151), N287AT (c/n 18805),

BA have never operated 727s, they did have some short-term we leases in the 1980s. But in the same way airlines have wet-leased many oddball types over the years, they are never part of their fleet, or operated by the lessee.

BA just needed some peak-season capacity, they never operated a 727.

If an airline needs to move 150 pax from A to B and they don't have aircraft available, they can wet-lease anything that meets their safety/quality requirements. but it will be technically and operationally under the control of the wet-lease operator. Even if it's a longer term wet-lease where the company's name is placed on the aircraft, it's still a wet-lease and that company isn't operating that type.

If you need more recent examples, Jet2 have never operated an A320, and neither have Bahamasair but there are photos of both companies with their names on the side of an A320!  
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747buff
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:20 am

I seem to recall a few fellow MSPers saying PA flew summer charters from here (MSP) to Europe with DC10s in the early to mid-80s.
At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:46 am

Quoting n729pa (Reply 19):
BTW BA never had 727s, A300 or A310 either. The DC10s came courtesy of BCal (who also had the A310 but non-standard for what BA wanted then).
the A300/A310 wasn't around when BA was formed out of BOAC/BEA.

I realise that, but I used BA as an example How many different aircraft types did they have at the time of the merger flying at the same time,
it was like PA in its time a large airline with 4 or 5 different types of aircraft making up its fleet. I know BA never flew 727s
A300 or A310s. I did see a BA DC-10 at LAX looked nice in the Landor colour scheme.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:34 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):

Pan Am's L-1011s were best avoided in Y class as they had cramped 10-abreast 3-4-3 charter-type seating, unusual for a full-service L-1011 operator.

I loved the L10-500, but that really was a cattle car and I could never understand why they did that. The only thing I could come up with was that the L10 was originally ordered as a 707 replacement - PA still having a number of 707-321s to Latin America and (I suspect) less traveled routes out of JFK and LAX. The 3-4-3 was on a par with 6-across narrowbodies.

What I don't understand is how they effectively competed with the likes of LH, AF or SR when L10s appeared on the North Atlantic on prime transatlantic runs. I suppose PA needed capacity control on the Atlantic (too many 747s) but it was not good for the customer. A buddy of mine flew one FCO-JFK and said it was torture.

I have an old PA timetable from 1983, when they showed seat charts in the last few pages. The DC10-10s at least, had also gone to 3-4-3, replacing NA's 2-5-2. PA's L10s took a bad rap, but the -10 had gotten the same treatment (I have no idea how soon after the NA merger PA performed this 'upgrade').
 
georgiabill
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:14 pm

One of the early routes L1011-500'S for PA was their JFK-MEX-JFK service.
 
beachbum1970
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:47 pm

Just curious, did Pan Am ever refurbish the interiors of the National DC-10s to the Pan Am cabin style (new carpets, seat covers, bulk heads, etc)? Or did the DC-10s finish their Pan Am careers with the National interiors? I couldn't find any Pan Am DC-10 cabin pics in the photo database, but there are 4 photos of the L-1011 cabin. Here are 2 of them:


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Love those carpeted bulkhead designs! They just don't make 'em like that anymore, do they?
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:38 pm

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 30):
Just curious, did Pan Am ever refurbish the interiors of the National DC-10s to the Pan Am cabin style (new carpets, seat covers, bulk heads, etc)? Or did the DC-10s finish their Pan Am careers with the National interiors? I couldn't find any Pan Am DC-10 cabin pics in the photo database

The ex-NA DC-10s were indeed converted to Pan Am seat covers, and likely the carpets as well. The F-class retained the old NA seats, but covered in the red (as above in the L10) throughout (no blue). PA did not change the wall panels. An ex-Pan Am-er explained that the NA cabin walls (DC10 and 727) were a mottled gold/yellow and the red was considered a better match. IIRC there was an abstract tapestry design on the movie screen, but not a full blown bulkhead design.

Economy resembled the L10 as above. As I mentioned in the previous post, the NA 2-5-2 seats were ripped out and replaced with 3-4-3 at some point. I have no idea if they were flown 2-5-2 any length of time after the merger, and if they were, whether Pan Am covers were applied. Would love to know.
 
Gasman
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:40 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
The entire lot seems to have gone to American Airlines in 1984 (including N80NA which was written off in a non-fatal landing accident as N139AA at DFW on April 14, 1993

So AA have the dubious honour of having written off two DC-10s at DFW. The other was N136AA (originally ZK-NZL)
 
Cody
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:49 pm

Does anyone know if United refurbished these L1011's with their own seat covers? I know they kept the 10 across, but don't know if they actually refurbished them.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:02 pm

Quoting Cody (Reply 33):
Does anyone know if United refurbished these L1011's with their own seat covers? I know they kept the 10 across, but don't know if they actually refurbished them.

Apparently these were flown with the Pan Am interior throughout. Even the safety cards were basically the PA layout with United and the tulip replacing the Pan Am and globe. During the 1980s the rest of the UA safety cards were large and had photographs rather than drawings - great for keeping a record of the interiors and seats. T
 
global2
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:03 pm

Much has been written about how PA's choice to merge with NA to get some semblance of a domestic route structure was a bad choice. Having both the L-1011 and DC-10 in the same fleet was one of the many reasons why this did not turn out well.
 
doulasc
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:24 pm

the last thing Pan Am needed was more Boeing 747s in their fleetI'll never know why Pan Am got rid of their L 1011 and Douglas dc-10s maybe PanAm should have kept some of their Boeing 707s flying into the mid-1980s
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting doulasc (Reply 36):
the last thing Pan Am needed was more Boeing 747s in their fleetI'll never know why Pan Am got rid of their L 1011 and Douglas dc-10s maybe PanAm should have kept some of their Boeing 707s flying into the mid-1980s

I'll never understand why Pan Am didn't make better use of the DC-10-30s acquired from NA. They could have stayed with 2-5-2 in economy and added Clipper and F class to compete against SR and LH across the pond at lower costs than the 747.

The DC-10-10s were doing mostly Florida and the Caribbean which was probably better handled (more economically) by the A300s, so I can see why their days were numbered.

The original plans were to unload the L1011s and keep the -10s in fact, and that concept changed so that the L10s hung on for a couple of more years. Once PA acquired the A310-300, it became the token small widebody for transat ops. By then the airline was bleeding and quite honestly its days were numbered, regardless of fleet.
 
Max Q
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:48 pm

The Tristar in the Pan Am colors looked out standing, as all their aircraft did in their understated older scheme.



The billboard titles looked terrible, just seemed to highlight their problems then.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1990
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:53 pm

BA operated their TriStars with 10-abreast too, and although the -500s weren't around long the -200s were there for the majority of the 1980s.

1988-89 across the Atlantic: -
BA094/095 LHR-YMX-DTW
BA232/233 LHR-BDA-TPA or LHR-BDA-NAS

1987 across the Atlantic
BA182/183 MAN-JFK
BA244/245 LHR-GIG-GRU (used leased in AirLanka -500s)
BA258/259 LHR-POS-CCS-BOG
BA258/259 LHR-UVF-CCS

1985 across the Atlantic
BA182/183 MAN-JFK
BA244/245 LHR-GIG-GRU (used leased in AirLanka -500s)
BA254/255 LHR-POS-CCS-BOG
BA266/267 LHR-BDA-BWI-LHR
BA268/269 LHR-BWI-BDA-LHR
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:04 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 31):
As I mentioned in the previous post, the NA 2-5-2 seats were ripped out and replaced with 3-4-3 at some point. I have no idea if they were flown 2-5-2 any length of time after the merger, and if they were, whether Pan Am covers were applied. Would love to know.

The PA DC-10-10 I flew on in 1982 SFO-IAH-MIA was 9-abreast. I would have noticed if it had been 10.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 39):
BA operated their TriStars with 10-abreast too, and although the -500s weren't around long the -200s were there for the majority of the 1980s.

BA's L-1011-500s were 9-abreast in Y. Their original L-1011-1s operated mainly with Europe were 10-abreast as were some aircraft used on leisure routes from LGW to the Caribbean etc. I'm quite sure those regularly used on major scheduled longhaul routes from LHR were 9-abreast.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:25 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 37):
I'll never understand why Pan Am didn't make better use of the DC-10-30s acquired from NA.

Simply put, Pan Am was basically headless from the moment Trippe retired. Perhaps only Seawell managed to lead it a bit, but ended up acquiring the little National at too high a price just to get access to the domestic network. It was probably thought that five DC-10-30s against 12 L15 was just a temporary measure. I suspect that the 10-across in Y in the DC-10-10s happened under Acker (ex-Air Florida CEO) as a way to cram more passengers in less airplane.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 41):
I suspect that the 10-across in Y in the DC-10-10s happened under Acker (ex-Air Florida CEO) as a way to cram more passengers in less airplane.

I wouldn't be surprised. The 10-across seating I saw diagrammed was from very late 1983. Given Viscount's 2-5-2 experience in 1982, it looks like it took PA 2-3 years post-merger to create the cattle car. Just a thought, but perhaps the idea was to place the DC10-10s on occasional charter services alongside the DC10-30s (which were all-Y .... a very strange use of that aircraft).
 
doulasc
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:12 pm

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:53 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 41):

that's probably the reason that Acker wanted to trade the DC 10s to American Airlines for their 747s
Then orders A310s which carried less passengers than a DC-10-30.maybe PanAm retired their Boeing 707s too early and should have kept them til the mid-1980s for the thinner routes

[Edited 2016-01-17 09:56:59]
 
jfk777
Posts: 7422
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:02 am

Quoting doulasc (Reply 43):
aybe PanAm retired their Boeing 707s too early and should have kept them til the mid-1980s for the thinner routes

Remember the Arab oil embargo of the early 1980's ? Made fuel very expensive and the 707 was definitely the Escalade of its day. AA grounded all of there in 1981 or 83 all at once.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1940
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:12 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 13):
Then those L15's went to DL in a
deal to swap them for WA's DC-10's?

Weren't at least some of DL's ex-WA DC-10s operated by AA? I've seen pictures of AA DC-10s in the late 1980s with white (not silver) fuselages.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:52 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 45):
Weren't at least some of DL's ex-WA DC-10s operated by AA? I've seen pictures of AA DC-10s in the late 1980s with white (not silver) fuselages.

Yes, 908WA, 909 & 912 but they were in fact leased from Scanair before they were registered in Sweden.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1722
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:23 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 44):
Remember the Arab oil embargo of the early 1980's ? Made fuel very expensive and the 707 was definitely the Escalade of its day. AA grounded all of there in 1981 or 83 all at once.

The 707's took a fuel price shoke from 2 events..the Arab oil embargo was from Oct. of 73 til April of 74. The 1979 price shock was due to the Iranian revolution and subsequent embargo of Iranian oil to the US and the drop in supply due the the revolution.

At very best the 707's, of anyones, were marginally profitable after 1974. Prior to the Oct.73 embargo Jet-A was around 15-20 cents per gallon around the world. BY May of 74 that shot up to 45-50 cents per gallon. At full loads, witht he right mix of fare paid and cargo revenue 707 could hold their own until the shock of 79.

NO one, certainly even PA, made any money on any 707 flight after 1979. the economics structure of the time just would not allow it. That is why AA retired thiers in Sept of 81 after obtaining 15 or 20 used 727 from Braniff and TWA retired the last in Sept of 1983. (maybe after getting a few 767s? I don't quite recall the timing on those at TW)
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1940
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:24 pm

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 47):
TWA retired the last in Sept of 1983. (maybe after getting a few 767s? I don't quite recall the timing on those at TW)

TWA's last scheduled 707 was MIA-JFK in late Oct 1983, after TWA had begun to receive 767s and MD-80s. The next day, the aircraft used on this flight replaced the scheduled 727 on JFK-ORD-MCI, to position it back to TWA's MCI base for retirement. Aviation historian (and then-TWA flight attendant) Jon Proctor turned the ORD-MCI flight into a tribute to the 707 - a nice way for the 707 to bow out.
 
Ryanair01
Posts: 485
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RE: Pan Am DC-10s (and L1011-500s)

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:06 pm

I think Pan Am's Chairman William Seawell had previously held a senior job at Rolls Royce, hence the L1011 selection.

From what I understand the DC10s were converted to 10 across because Seawell's replacement Ed Acker was very focused on having low seat per mile costs as a way to compete with post deregulation budget airlines like People Express and Air Florida, which of course he ran for a while. Seawall avoided strikes from the former NA side by bringing NA pay scales up to PA levels, which in the post deregulation era was an awful mistake. By crippling the former NA network with high costs it could never generate the profit to pay back the loans used to buy it (and PA grossly overpaid). Squeezing as many people as possible into short haul DC10s was just part of their effort to bring costs per passenger back down.

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