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LAXintl
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Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:24 pm

Aviation Week yesterday had interview story with Porter CEO Bob Deluce which covers how the carrier is searching for a Plan-B now that growth options at Toronto City have been closed.

CEO admits the carrier was caught off guard by the government decision but insist the carrier will instead look beyond YTZ for growth.
More specifically he suggest Halifax, Montreal, and Ottawa could be markets to establish additional base at. Carrier has no interest in serving YYZ and only sees Western Canada as longer term prospect and not on the carriers immediate radar.

Regarding the pending C-series order Deluce says “We maintain in place a significant deposit for the purchase of up to 30 CS100s, our conditional purchase agreement remains in place. Obviously, we are reassessing our overall growth plans and where we can use those aircraft.”
Porter also holds purchase rights to six additional Q400s


After Setback, Porter Airlines Mulls Strategy Change
http://aviationweek.com/awincommerci...ter-airlines-mulls-strategy-change

=

Frankly, I see Porter getting killed it if goes head to head with AC or WS in other markets.

PD would likely lack pricing power, schedule frequency, low enough cost base and frequent flyer loyalty imo to succeed against the other well established players.
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TWA772LR
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:32 pm

YYZ to LCY anyone??? I think that's right up Porters alley.
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ACDC8
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:37 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
arrier has no interest in serving YYZ

Ah yes, no interest in YYZ. I remember another carrier based out of Western Canada saying the same thing about YYZ and now its their biggest hub - guess they just need to go where the dollars are.
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mercure1
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:51 pm

I see growing outside YTZ is danger for PD, but of course status quo is probably not good either with just focus on YTZ where no growth is possible now.
Being privately held also who knows how much they are losing but recent terminal sale should help cash for a few years.

Accepting C-series and moving beyond YTZ certainly place PD into direct target of Air Canada and Westjet with superior strength.

I don't think PD has many good options with all choices having big risk.
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toltommy
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:21 am

Are they currently out of room to grow at YTZ? Would it not make some sense to grow into US markets? The US dollars coming in wouldn't hurt right now. I realize taxes seem to have a major impact, but if you are focused on the business traveller wouldn't service from cities like CLE/CMH/PIT/PHL/BWI/IND to YTZ have some possibility?
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:28 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 4):

Are they currently out of room to grow at YTZ? Would it not make some sense to grow into US markets? The US dollars coming in wouldn't hurt right now. I realize taxes seem to have a major impact, but if you are focused on the business traveller wouldn't service from cities like CLE/CMH/PIT/PHL/BWI/IND to YTZ have some possibility?

The big problem - and the one they thought would be addressed - is the ban or flying jet aircraft from YTZ. Allowed to use the C-Series on routs like these, they could be very competitive. Limited to their Q400's, though, most travelers would probably look first at other carriers.

The Q400 may be a great plane, but mention "turboprop" and the average flier heads in the other direction.
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:52 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):
Ah yes, no interest in YYZ. I remember another carrier based out of Western Canada saying the same thing about YYZ and now its their biggest hub

YYC is a much bigger WestJet hub than YYZ. Tomorrow (Sunday) they have 111 departures from YYC compared to 84 from YYZ.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:57 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 4):
Are they currently out of room to grow at YTZ?

According to below article PD controls 172 of 202 allowed daily movement slots at YTZ

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015...dnt_hurt_air_canadas_business.html
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:01 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):
Quoting toltommy (Reply 4):
Are they currently out of room to grow at YTZ?

According to below article PD controls 172 of 202 allowed daily movement slots at YTZ

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015....html

AC (Sky Regional) has the other 30 YTZ slot pairs for their 15 daily flights to YUL (less on weekends).
 
Flaps
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:04 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 5):
if you are focused on the business traveller wouldn't service from cities like CLE/CMH/PIT/PHL/BWI/IND to YTZ

Porter already serves YTZ from PIT.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
YYC is a much bigger WestJet hub than YYZ. Tomorrow (Sunday) they have 111 departures from YYC compared to 84 from YYZ.

Yet they serve a large number more destinations from YYZ.
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Viscount724
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
YYC is a much bigger WestJet hub than YYZ. Tomorrow (Sunday) they have 111 departures from YYC compared to 84 from YYZ.

Yet they serve a large number more destinations from YYZ.

You'll find that's not correct. Looking at Sunday's schedules, WS has 33 destinations from YYC and 35 from YYZ. A difference of 2 isn't "a large number more". And many of the weekend destinations from YYZ are in Mexico and the Caribbean only served a couple of times a week seasonally. YYC has significantly more WS destinations with regular daily year-round service, often multiple daily flights,

For example, on Sunday only 4 of the 33 WS destinations from YYC are in Mexico while from YYZ at least 15 WS destinations from YYZ are to infrequent seasonal resort destinations in Mexico/Caribbean/Central America.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Looking at Sunday's schedules, WS has 33 destinations from YYC and 35 from YYZ has more destinations than YYC. Thank you.

The point I was making that one of WS's largest hubs is a market that they at one point in time, had no interest in serving themselves.

[Edited 2016-01-16 20:19:47]
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Whiteguy
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:45 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
YYC is a much bigger WestJet hub than YYZ. Tomorrow (Sunday) they have 111 departures from YYC compared to 84 from YYZ.

Yet they serve a large number more destinations from YYZ.

You'll find that's not correct. Looking at Sunday's schedules, WS has 33 destinations from YYC and 35 from YYZ. A difference of 2 isn't "a large number more". And many of the weekend destinations from YYZ are in Mexico and the Caribbean only served a couple of times a week seasonally. YYC has significantly more WS destinations with regular daily year-round service, often multiple daily flights,

For example, on Sunday only 4 of the 33 WS destinations from YYC are in Mexico while from YYZ at least 15 WS destinations from YYZ are to infrequent seasonal resort destinations in Mexico/Caribbean/Central America.

YYZ passed YYC just over a year ago for number one spot in the system. I wouldn't use the weekend as a good example, the schedule is quite reduced compared to during the week....
 
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:18 pm

Gist of it is, Porter needs places to use those shiny new C series, right? If this expansion talk is solely driven by the CS100s, then why not lease or sell them (even at a loss)? Maybe taking a small financial hit is better than a risky big move.
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:01 pm

Quoting rockyracoon (Reply 14):


Gist of it is, Porter needs places to use those shiny new C series, right? If this expansion talk is solely driven by the CS100s, then why not lease or sell them (even at a loss)? Maybe taking a small financial hit is better than a risky big move.

They were conditional orders IIRC subject to runway lengthening at YTZ. AFAIK they are not firm. I like the idea of a YOW base though, neither AC or WS really hub much there, could be some opportunity. Hamilton strikes me as another option.
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transaeroyyz
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:16 pm

How about YHM or YKF short drive from GTA, as a C-series base. Connect them with a short Q400 hop from YTZ! kids fly free!
 
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:59 pm

People said they same things about WestJet when the started and now AC can't touch them. Honestly I think they have a good chance at succeeding. The general public already loves Porter and 30 aircraft is a very good start at competing against WS and AC, especially if that equipment is solely being used in Eastern Canada. They're making money from their YTZ business so I think they're in a safe position to try this out. I definitely have more faith in a PD plan than I do with any of the "paper startups" that keep popping up allover the country.
 
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:03 pm

I think PVD might be the largest MSA within 500 mikes of Toronto without any nonstop service between the two. Would be great to see PD at PVD. With 3 airlines doing Boston-Toronto, might be an oppotunity to grow their presence in New England.
 
YYZFAN
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:41 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
CEO admits the carrier was caught off guard by the government decision

Odd considering the loud opposition out of city council in Toronto, and several campaigns throughout the election.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Frankly, I see Porter getting killed it if goes head to head with AC or WS in other markets.

I agree. Their reputation and brand are in Eastern Canada, specifically in the "Golden Triangle". AC and WS both have the money, other resources, and frequent flyer bases to ruin them. The only reason it hasn't happened at YTZ is because they own approximately 80% of the movements. They have carved out a nice niche (how profitable, we don't know) at YTZ, but what would happen out west would be totally different.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 15):
I like the idea of a YOW base though, neither AC or WS really hub much there, could be some opportunity. Hamilton strikes me as another option.

YOW could be scaled up if a competitive threat comes in. It is a much smaller market than Toronto, with Ottawa-Gatineau containing approximately 1.3 million people (2011 Census), compared to Toronto-GTA with just over 6 million people (2011 Census).

YHM gets mentioned a lot when carriers (both real and on paper) show interest in expansion or starting up. However, it seems that the status quo works. Hamilton to YYZ is 40 minutes (and has a public transport option). WS serves it in a limited capactiy. It simply does not have the prowess of YYZ, and I doubt there are many who would trek from the GTA to Hamilton for a cheaper fare unless they are very price concious.
 
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:33 pm

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 19):
Hamilton to YYZ is 40 minutes (and has a public transport option). WS serves it in a limited capactiy.

So...YYZ to Hamilton is also 40 minutes... and passengers from Toronto wanting to fly Porter could make the trek in that direction, too, should PD decide to locate its C-Series aircraft there.

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 19):
CEO admits the carrier was caught off guard by the government decision
Odd considering the loud opposition out of city council in Toronto, and several campaigns throughout the election.

Porter probably expected a decision based on rational thinking, not on the loudness of the opposition.
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:44 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 17):
People said they same things about WestJet when the started and now AC can't touch them.

Westjet was/is successful for two reasons. First of all they are brutal with cost control, always starting slowly with low risk with little capital outlay. Their B767 operation is testimony that this tenet is still alive. Secondly, they jumped into a void left by Canadian ... the vehement anti-Air Canada sentiment that exists in the west. I don't know how many times I have heard a western Canadian state "I'd rather walk than climb on that French Canadian Liberal airline!"

Quoting lostsound (Reply 17):
The general public already loves Porter and 30 aircraft is a very good start at competing against WS and AC, especially if that equipment is solely being used in Eastern Canada. They're making money from their YTZ business so I think they're in a safe position to try this out.

Porter offers a superb cabin product, but that is not why they are successful. They are successful because that have a virtual monopoly on 85% of the slots of a very slot controlled airport that is at the doorstep of Canada's largest market. As soon as they leave the security of that monopoly, they better bring their A game.

And as time has always shown, it is fare and fare alone that passengers prefer. Yeah, the free beer and snacks are cool ... but when they are sitting in front of their computer, the click goes to the cheapest airline. And, I don't think anyone honestly thinks Porter has what it takes to hold it's own against two heavily capitalized airlines like AC and WS. And don't for a second think competition won't be fierce.

In my opinion, (and only my opinion), I think as soon as Porter leaves the security of their area of success, they are doomed.
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diverted
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:58 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Frankly, I see Porter getting killed it if goes head to head with AC or WS in other markets.
Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 19):
I agree. Their reputation and brand are in Eastern Canada, specifically in the "Golden Triangle". AC and WS both have the money, other resources, and frequent flyer bases to ruin them. The only reason it hasn't happened at YTZ is because they own approximately 80% of the movements. They have carved out a nice niche (how profitable, we don't know) at YTZ, but what would happen out west would be totally different.

PD has a pretty loyal following. If their only advantage was controlling the majority of the slots, why would they bother flying YOW-YHZ, YOW-YQM, YUL-YHZ, YHZ-YYT? From my experience, those flights are full. I don't see AC or WS killing them there, at least not in the 7 or so years they've been flying the routes.

Furthermore, if YTZ was such a critical piece of infrastructure, why'd AC wind down the operation to something so small that someone could come in and control 80% of the movements? AC aggressively priced fares on YYZ-YOW, YYZ-YUL etc as PD was expanding, and yet, the pax came. AC tried ruining them from 2006 and onwards, they haven't succeeded yet.

While I don't think PD has the critical mass to be able to jump into any market and instantly succeed, I see no reason that they can't further expand their operation, albeit cautiously.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):
Ah yes, no interest in YYZ. I remember another carrier based out of Western Canada saying the same thing about YYZ and now its their biggest hub - guess they just need to go where the dollars are.

Comparing WS's YHM operation to PD's YTZ operation as an alternative to YYZ is an apples to oranges comparison.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 5):
Limited to their Q400's, though, most travelers would probably look first at other carriers.

When the alternative is an AC Jazz Dash 8-100, it doesn't matter. Honestly though, I'd say the Canadian population as a whole is less bothered by Turboprops than Americans. We've been getting bounced around on Dash 8s for years up here  

Plus, and this is anecdotal, free beer and wine has a way of affecting people's booking habits when the airfare is the same.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:14 pm

I just don't understand the opposition to making YTZ so limited. Restrictions on noise I can understand but the CSeries seems to have shown that it can bypass that and from what I have read it may be somewhat quieter than the Q400. Given that why would Toronto's council and public not embrace the idea of expanded service from the "front door" so to speak? Have the council and public never heard of LCY?

Given the situation though it seems that the Board and CEO should have had a "plan B" and the obvious situation of them not having a "Plan B" sure would not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling a shareholder is hoping to feel. As an outsider I would wonder how viable YMX is as alternative to YUL? Additionally, how would YQG work? Far enough away from YYZ and a bit of a pain to cross over to DTW and seems to be enough population to support such a carrier?

Interesting situation for PD, be fun to see how it plays out.
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YYZFAN
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:23 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 20):
So...YYZ to Hamilton is also 40 minutes... and passengers from Toronto wanting to fly Porter could make the trek in that direction, too, should PD decide to locate its C-Series aircraft there.

I understand that. But the options at YYZ are signifanctly higher than at YHM. People closest to YHM can travel to YYZ and fly around the globe. There would need to be quite a price advantage for Toronto passengers to bypass YYZ and trek to YHM. That was the point I was trying to make.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 20):
Porter probably expected a decision based on rational thinking, not on the loudness of the opposition.

If they knew anything about Toronto politics, they would know the loud tends to win.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
Porter offers a superb cabin product, but that is not why they are successful. They are successful because that have a virtual monopoly on 85% of the slots of a very slot controlled airport that is at the doorstep of Canada's largest market. As soon as they leave the security of that monopoly, they better bring their A game.

        

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
In my opinion, (and only my opinion), I think as soon as Porter leaves the security of their area of success, they are doomed.

I share that opinon, for the most part. I think they could find some success out of YOW since they do quite well there. If they are quiet there, they could make it. Too big a splash, and AC + WS will squash them.

Quoting diverted (Reply 22):
From my experience, those flights are full. I don't see AC or WS killing them there, at least not in the 7 or so years they've been flying the routes.

I do believe they could find some limited success. They have a loyal following, and from what I year, an excellent overall experience.

Quoting diverted (Reply 22):
AC aggressively priced fares on YYZ-YOW, YYZ-YUL etc as PD was expanding, and yet, the pax came. AC tried ruining them from 2006 and onwards, they haven't succeeded yet.

Since PD is private, we don't know how successful they are. They can stick around and be bleeding cash.
 
YYZFAN
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:26 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):
I just don't understand the opposition to making YTZ so limited. Restrictions on noise I can understand but the CSeries seems to have shown that it can bypass that and from what I have read it may be somewhat quieter than the Q400. Given that why would Toronto's council and public not embrace the idea of expanded service from the "front door" so to speak? Have the council and public never heard of LCY?

There is a very strong NIMBY lobby supported by politicians at all levels of government. The opposition has other points besides noise. Traffic in the area has increased significantly, and there isn't a lot that can be done about it. There is also a "romantic idea" of a beautiful waterfront. How this goes along with all the condos built there is beyond me, but who says these people are logical?
 
stlgph
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:05 pm

Surprised we haven't seen a few routes spoke out of Montreal to both U.S. and Canadian destinations.

Also, agreed that Porter offers great service on the ground and in the sky but have to agree on the sentiment that the word "prop" does send folks running in the other direction.

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 18):
I think PVD might be the largest MSA within 500 mikes of Toronto without any nonstop service between the two. Would be great to see PD at PVD. With 3 airlines doing Boston-Toronto, might be an oppotunity to grow their presence in New England.

The Providence - Toronto business sector is hella hella tiny
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PVD757
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:17 pm

Not as tiny as you'd guess. The traffic all leaks to Boston. Even when AC was in PVD, most companies didn't allow or want their high level execs on Beech 1900's.
 
planemaker
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:22 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 22):
If their only advantage was controlling the majority of the slots, why would they bother flying YOW-YHZ, YOW-YQM, YUL-YHZ, YHZ-YYT?

They have no other alternative.

Quoting diverted (Reply 22):
Furthermore, if YTZ was such a critical piece of infrastructure, why'd AC wind down the operation to something so small that someone could come in and control 80% of the movements?

It is critical to PD... not to AC.

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 25):
The opposition has other points besides noise. Traffic in the area has increased significantly, and there isn't a lot that can be done about it. There is also a "romantic idea" of a beautiful waterfront. How this goes along with all the condos built there is beyond me, but who says these people are logical?
"These people are logical". As has been mentioned in various YTZ threads, the issue isn't really PD but the airport. "These people" want to turn the airport into a park.  
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stlgph
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:04 pm

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 27):
Not as tiny as you'd guess. The traffic all leaks to Boston. Even when AC was in PVD, most companies didn't allow or want their high level execs on Beech 1900's.

Except for the part where it's tiny. It's not worth it. And you talked to all those "high level" execs, right because it sure aint stopping the United Technology or

If Porter was to fly to places just because it sounds like a good idea on paper they'd be at NY Kennedy and Philadelphia.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
cloudboy
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:38 pm

That might just be their game now.

They are never going to be able to grow out of YTZ. Not anything significant, anyways. And sorry, they will be too small an airline at YYZ. YOW doesn't have enough business there for them to thrive. IT would be one thing if it was an airline that just wanted to be content being a small but healthy fish. It isn't. It has aspirations.

That means they have to exploit the niches that aren't taken by WS and AC don't fully. So I think they will eventually decide to focus most of their operations on key business heavy routes to Toronto, with a kind of premium economy type product. Change out their planes to 3 across, snacks, lounges at both ends. Mostly US to Canada, with a handful of connections. And do it cheap enough that you get more people to fly.
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planemaker
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:12 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 30):
IT would be one thing if it was an airline that just wanted to be content being a small but healthy fish. It isn't. It has aspirations.

PD has investors that expected to cash out in 2010 during the attempted IPO.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ACDC8
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:51 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 22):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):
Ah yes, no interest in YYZ. I remember another carrier based out of Western Canada saying the same thing about YYZ and now its their biggest hub - guess they just need to go where the dollars are.

Comparing WS's YHM operation to PD's YTZ operation as an alternative to YYZ is an apples to oranges comparison.

I wasn't comparing anything. Maybe you clicked on the wrong quote?

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 30):
So I think they will eventually decide to focus most of their operations on key business heavy routes to Toronto, with a kind of premium economy type product. Change out their planes to 3 across, snacks, lounges at both ends.

That would be interesting to see if that would work now. IIRC Intair (ND) tried that back in the 90s with a fleet of F100s although their scheduled routes were limited to YYZ-YUL.
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fly_yhm
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:50 pm

I love when YHM get thrown into the conversation it almost immediately gets dismissed because
people from Toronto wont want to drive there. well what about Niagara, Halton Kitchener-Waterloo Brantford.
Those communities are just as close to YHM at YYZ factor in Hamilton Population and that should be enough to support
significant flight increases from YHM.

I've said it before on here. when WestJet was in their peak at YHM I was working there as a Co-op Student (Work Placement)
They had amazing loads from YHM. They went to YYZ because the airport authority Lollygagged on terminal expansion.
However with Porter the terminal at YTZ and YHM are very similar in size. Also the other infrastructure at YHM is
better then YTZ.

For example bad weather landings. Anytime there is poor weather at YTZ YHM is the diversion airport at YYZ. A year or so ago they
had a fuel problem at YTZ on weekends. Every flight that day left from YTZ flew to YHM then onto the final destination.

I would say if porter moves somewhere its to YHM base off the relationship they already have.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:34 am

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 13):
YYZ passed YYC just over a year ago for number one spot in the system. I wouldn't use the weekend as a good example, the schedule is quite reduced compared to during the week

That's probably true in passengers since a higher percentage of YYC flights are WestJet Encore Q400s. YYC still seems to be #1 in flight departures. On Monday YYC has 110 vs. 94 from YYZ.
 
diverted
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:54 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 28):
They have no other alternative.

Sure they did. They could have focused on flights from YTZ and saved a bunch of money on airplanes.

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 24):
Since PD is private, we don't know how successful they are. They can stick around and be bleeding cash.

Well, they've paid out profit sharing the last 3 years or so.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 32):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):Ah yes, no interest in YYZ. I remember another carrier based out of Western Canada saying the same thing about YYZ and now its their biggest hub - guess they just need to go where the dollars are. Comparing WS's YHM operation to PD's YTZ operation as an alternative to YYZ is an apples to oranges comparison. I wasn't comparing anything. Maybe you clicked on the wrong quote?

You had mentioned another carrier, I'm assuming WS, who "had no interest in serving YYZ and now its their biggest hub"

PD will not move to YYZ. There is no situation I can see which would facilitate a move.

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 33):
However with Porter the terminal at YTZ and YHM are very similar in size. Also the other infrastructure at YHM is better then YTZ.For example bad weather landings. Anytime there is poor weather at YTZ YHM is the diversion airport at YYZ. A year or so ago theyhad a fuel problem at YTZ on weekends. Every flight that day left from YTZ flew to YHM then onto the final destination.

I think I remember the specific issue you mentioned-It wasn't anything to do with weekends, just a one time occurrence. Mind you, PD has in the past rerouted aircraft YTZ-YHM-final dest as a means of carrying a full load ex-YTZ

PD's whole business model is predicated on convenient access to frequent departures. By moving to YHM, they'd instantly destroy a huge portion of their business that they've spent the last 8 or so years growing.
 
ytz
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:09 pm

All depends on how they want to grow. If they want to grow more US flights than YHZ and either YOW or YUL could take those aircraft. Perhaps even a YOW/YUL-LCY!

But YHM only works if in essence it develops as a separate business with feed from YOW, YUL, YHZ. Given the lack of competition there, and the small size of the CSeries. It could just work. A lot more of a shot than say New Leaf.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:10 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
the carrier is searching for a Plan-B now that growth options at Toronto City have been closed.

What about YQG - Windsor, Ontario as a close entry into Detroit without stepping into DTW. Also DET for that matter would accomplish the same thing and either/or would provide a host of new route possibilities.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:18 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 37):


Also DET for that matter would accomplish the same thing and either/or would provide a host of new route possibilities.

Only to other Canadian cities. The "host" being Toronto, Ottawa (maybe) and Montreal.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
planemaker
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:12 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 35):
Sure they did. They could have focused on flights from YTZ and saved a bunch of money on airplanes.

They have focused on flights from YTZ from day one so I don't understand what you are attempting to say.

Quoting diverted (Reply 35):
Well, they've paid out profit sharing the last 3 years or so.

Paid out profit sharing the last 3 years or so? PD surely would have proclaimed it loud and clear if they had, as they did in 2011.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
diverted
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:46 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 28):
Quoting diverted (Reply 22):If their only advantage was controlling the majority of the slots, why would they bother flying YOW-YHZ, YOW-YQM, YUL-YHZ, YHZ-YYT?
They have no other alternative.

.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 39):
Quoting diverted (Reply 35):Sure they did. They could have focused on flights from YTZ and saved a bunch of money on airplanes.
They have focused on flights from YTZ from day one so I don't understand what you are attempting to say.

I made the intial mention of routes that aren't YTZ-XXX-YTZ, like YOW-YHZ. All destinations they started serving before utilizing all the YTZ slots. Granted, a good portion of those flights originate in YTZ and go all the way through, but there's plenty of non YTZ traffic buying tickets YHZ-YYT for example.

Your post seems to imply that they have no alternative to flying to those places, but then also say they focused only on YTZ. Anyways, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, nor worthy of an a.net argument  
Quoting planemaker (Reply 39):
Paid out profit sharing the last 3 years or so? PD surely would have proclaimed it loud and clear if they had, as they did in 2011.

I'll PM you on this one.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:12 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
the vehement anti-Air Canada sentiment that exists in the west. I don't know how many times I have heard a western Canadian state "I'd rather walk than climb on that French Canadian Liberal airline!"

I have lived in the west for decades and I don't think I've ever heard that. Current AC load factors in the west are a testament to how Western Canadian's flying choices are governed by the same sentiments that guide any other fliers; price, availability, schedule, etc.

What annoyed westerners was not that AC was based in the east, but getting gouged on routes where there was no competition.

On routes where they compete, load factors on WS and AC are about the same.

Perpetuating the myth that all Western Canadians are rednecks and reflexively hate everything out of Eastern Canada is absurd.
What the...?
 
ACDC8
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:19 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 35):
You had mentioned another carrier, I'm assuming WS, who "had no interest in serving YYZ and now its their biggest hub"

PD will not move to YYZ. There is no situation I can see which would facilitate a move.

Ok, you just lost me with your reference to YHM which I made no reference to - something got lost in the translation I guess LOL  
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diverted
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:24 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 42):
Ok, you just lost me with your reference to YHM which I made no reference to - something got lost in the translation I guess LOL

I think I may have mistook your "had no interest in serving YYZ" as reference to the YHM operation. LOL, Cheers
 
ytz
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:13 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 39):
PD surely would have proclaimed it loud and clear if they had, as they did in 2011.

I thought they did. I seem to recall some announcement about it. But profit sharing with employees is hardly going to get the media's attention.

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 33):

I agree with you. I think YHM has potential. But only if they launch with a somewhat different strategy. And that'll be hard to square for an airline that pitched itself as a premium carrier. For example, there's probably a market they could make work with YHM-YXX (secondary airport-secondary airport). But that potential has to be weighed against the potential for other sites (like YOW). And against what the competition will throw up (from New Leaf at YHM to AC and WS discounting severely at YYZ).
 
Speedalive
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:22 pm

My understanding was that the order was conditional upon the expansion of the airport and the tri-partite agreement being amended to allow Cseries jets to operate at YTZ. So I think they could just cancel the order, no? However, this is just my uneducated opinion, but if they are stuck with the jets, they have no choice but to stray away from their YTZ-centric business model. They could try to expand out of YOW, YHZ, and YUL, but ultimately their airline revolves around Toronto. They would be leaving a huge hole in their network without service from Toronto. What I think they could do, potentially, is to keep the Q400 operations out of YTZ but operate their jets from Pearson (crazy idea right?). I know Deluce said they have no interest in serving YYZ, but that might be their best choice. To make it work, PD could try to get a deal going where connecting pax going through Toronto get a free or heavily discounted UPX ride included in the airfare. That or they could operate their own buses between Pearson and the island (It could stop at Union station along the way as well). I think it could work. It would also allow them to operate more than 30 jets if they find success and it would facilitate any codeshare/interline agreements with other carriers as well as an alliance. It would also allow PD to use larger jets like the CS300 and 500 on busier routes although I think Porter prefers more frequencies over increasing capacity on fewer frequencies. Competing directly with the major airlines out of Pearson would require really strong cost control and it would require PD to ensure that their prices are always the same or less than the competition which should hopefully be financially viable with the new and more efficient jets. They have profit share for their employees as far as I know which would help motivate the workforce to maintain their great customer service. If they did this I'm sure they could put up a good fight. Porter has an excellent on-board product and I think that if their prices remained better or equal to AC/WS/legacy competition, there would be great opportunity for success for them since they have the superior domestic/transborder product IMO. As diverted said,

Quoting diverted (Reply 22):
free beer and wine has a way of affecting people's booking habits when the airfare is the same.

  The only thing that would be missing would be a lounge. I don't know what the options would be in this regard. I imagine it would be quite the expenditure to build their own lounge, but maybe they could share a lounge with another airline at T3? I don't imagine any space would be made for them at T1 lol.

[Edited 2016-01-18 14:24:11]

[Edited 2016-01-18 14:26:18]

[Edited 2016-01-18 14:29:27]
 
planemaker
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:37 am

Quoting diverted (Reply 40):
Your post seems to imply that they have no alternative to flying to those places, but then also say they focused only on YTZ.

Ah, I didn't say "only" so perhaps that is where you are misinterpreting me. The point of the "no alternative" is that they can't expand without adding new cities. Obviously, the CS100 wwould have increased pax numbers and revenue with no increase in YTZ slots (though I have little doubt that he would have pushed for an increase eventually). The CS100 was certainly a neat solution for PD to finally get an IPO and an exit for his investors.

Quoting ytz (Reply 44):
I thought they did. I seem to recall some announcement about it. But profit sharing with employees is hardly going to get the media's attention.

I did a search and the latest news on bonus payments was the 2011 bonus paid in 2012. While the announcement of a bonus might not resonate with the general public, it will certainly get the business media's attention... which is the intended target.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:45 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
the vehement anti-Air Canada sentiment that exists in the west. I don't know how many times I have heard a western Canadian state "I'd rather walk than climb on that French Canadian Liberal airline!"

I have lived in the west for decades and I don't think I've ever heard that. Current AC load factors in the west are a testament to how Western Canadian's flying choices are governed by the same sentiments that guide any other fliers; price, availability, schedule, etc.

I spent all my life in Alberta and B.C. prior to moving to Switzerland 20 years ago and my recollection is that some people talked about disliking AC but they still flew AC since they had no choice on most routes unless they wanted to drive or walk. Once AC was privatized and the restrictions on CP's access to domestic routes were lifted (which had long favoured AC), people chose the carrier based on whose fare was lowest, not based on hating AC. I worked for CP for 25 years in YVR and YYC and we always had a very good working relationship with AC.

[Edited 2016-01-18 16:51:17]
 
cloudboy
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RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:47 am

Could they have a reverse hub?

In that, I m meaning hubbing at BOS (or JFK). They already have an agreement with JetBlue, right, which does not serve Canada. From BOS or JFK, many Eastern Canada destinations are easily reachable with a Q400. Keep YTZ as a kind of internal hub, but focus on connecting Canadian cities with JEtBlue at BOS or JFK. They cold form a kind of joint venture that doesn't cross the ocean. Suddenly Canada is opened up to JetBlue, and Porter now has a strong feed to the US.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Porter Mulls New Strategy Outside YTZ

Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:02 am

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 48):
They already have an agreement with JetBlue, right, which does not serve Canada. From BOS or JFK, many Eastern Canada destinations are easily reachable with a Q400. Keep YTZ as a kind of internal hub, but focus on connecting Canadian cities with JEtBlue at BOS or JFK. They cold form a kind of joint venture that doesn't cross the ocean. Suddenly Canada is opened up to JetBlue, and Porter now has a strong feed to the US.

Only 2 airports in Canada served by Porter have U.S. pre-clearance, YUL and YHZ. From any other points to BOS or JFK, PD passengers would have to clear customs/immigration on arrival in the U.S., meaning picking up their checked bags and re-checking them, when connecting to B6. Wouldn't be very user-friendly.

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