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N62NA
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Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:57 pm

This is interesting. It's a flight operated by Republic, masquerading as American Eagle, owned by American airlines.

Who is the responsible party?

A flight attendant kicked four Brooklyn men off a recent Toronto-to-New York flight for looking too Muslim — claiming their appearance made the captain uneasy, a new $9 million federal lawsuit alleges.


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...ected-men-muslim-article-1.2499843
 
rampbro
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:01 pm

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Who is the responsible party?

Donald Trump
 
N1120A
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
This is interesting. It's a flight operated by Republic, masquerading as American Eagle, owned by American airlines.

Who is the responsible party?

All of the above. Republic and AA. AA signed the contract of carriage with the passenger, Republic did the carriage for them. AA can sue Republic, if they want, depending on their contract.

Thank goodness the more worldly Envoy crews run on the JFK-YYZ run that I take all the time off LAX-JFK redeyes.
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:12 pm

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):

Who is the responsible party?

The passengers of course, they look Muslims, even if one of them is a Sikh.   
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
N1120A
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 1):
Donald Trump

So very this. Of course, even before he started spouting his toupee off, this was going on.
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miaskies
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:30 pm

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Thank goodness the more worldly Envoy crews run on the JFK-YYZ run that I take all the time off LAX-JFK redeyes

Please do not make such a generalized ignorant comment. Unfortunate situations like this one happen all the time in many airlines regardless of who is operating the flight. Their are PLENTY of "worldly" LGA based crews - I am one of them.
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N1120A
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:40 pm

Quoting miaskies (Reply 5):
Please do not make such a generalized ignorant comment. Unfortunate situations like this one happen all the time in many airlines regardless of who is operating the flight. Their are PLENTY of "worldly" LGA based crews - I am one of them.

Sure, though it seems that regionals have had a much worse issue with this of late.
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Toni_
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:22 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
The passengers of course, they look Muslims, even if one of them is a Sikh.

Spent a long time trying to figure out the "muslim look".

Sad to see this level of ignorance on any flight, let alone an international one.

[Edited 2016-01-18 12:23:05]
 
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longhauler
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:53 pm

So if I read this correctly, they were denied transport because they looked Muslim. Not that they were Muslim, but because they looked Muslim!

I am still a little mystified how one looks Muslim, but ... Wow.

More and more the United States is looking White Trailer Trash. I am astounded an airline that pretends to be world class like American Airlines, does not have any Racial Harassment guidelines for their rather uninformed public contact employees.
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:54 pm

So you can fly with a comfort Turkey but not with brown human friends, we live in very enlightened times.
BV
 
AYVN
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:59 pm

quick decisions, maybe poor judgement, but is it worth 9 million?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:59 pm

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
A flight attendant kicked four Brooklyn men off a recent Toronto-to-New York flight for looking too Muslim — claiming their appearance made the captain uneasy

Clearly FA and CAPT spend too much time watching Faux News.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Of course, even before he started spouting his toupee off, this was going on.

See above.
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:02 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 34):
Clearly FA and CAPT spend too much time watching Faux News.

Imagine if they were international crew heading to DXB or somewhere.....no planes would ever leave!
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AirCalSNA
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:19 pm

They do look like thugs, although I'm not sure if they "look" Muslim (whatever that means). In any event I would be glad to see them booted off of my flight, since I would prefer not to be trapped in an aluminum cylinder with them for any more time than necessary. It will be interesting to see how the legal positions play out.
 
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:20 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 32):
So you can fly with a comfort Turkey but not with brown human friends, we live in very enlightened times.

  

Maybe they should claim that they are each other's comfort companion and then you can't throw them off.
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:50 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 31):
More and more the United States is looking White Trailer Trash.

Please clarify - are you saying that all Americans should be judged by the actions of these two? I certainly wouldn't judge all citizens of your fine nation that way.
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BestWestern
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:11 pm

Didn't you get the memo


Turkey / gun carrying / pig / pit bull / white Anglo Saxon = good airline passenger

Brown / beige / gay = New York values
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N62NA
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:11 pm

Quoting miaskies (Reply 5):
Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Thank goodness the more worldly Envoy crews run on the JFK-YYZ run that I take all the time off LAX-JFK redeyes

Please do not make such a generalized ignorant comment. Unfortunate situations like this one happen all the time in many airlines regardless of who is operating the flight. Their are PLENTY of "worldly" LGA based crews - I am one of them.

That wasn't me who made the statement, I don't know why in the quote it says me.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:54 pm

On the photo the man on the left is clearly are Sikh.
The man on the right is wearing a blouse and jeans.
The two men in the back wear shirts and jeans.

I thought to see 4 arabs in arabic dresses, but these are 4 Indians in western clothing.
They are just not white.
I don't understand what's going on here.. You can remove more than half of the passengers on any flight from North-America to India if you kick these guys of a flight.
And in England in many cities there are many Indian-English people. So they would all be banned from flying to North-America if this removal would become policy.

[Edited 2016-01-18 16:00:01]

[Edited 2016-01-18 16:24:35]
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:07 am

It will be interesting to see how this plays out if these guys are really serious about going through the litigation process. They will be asked a lot of uncomfortable questions and the airline and crew will no doubt have its own story that they will need to refute. I would predict there will be a settlement with each receiving at most $100K.
 
ScottishDavie
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:23 am

The fact that somebody can be kicked off a flight for "looking Muslim" when he is in fact Sikh and readily identifiable as such shows the level of paranoia and racist ignorance at play here. I really cannot imagine any situation where a European airline would eject passengers on the basis of their appearance and nothing else. I wish the passengers success with their lawsuit
 
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:29 am

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 60):
I really cannot imagine any situation where a European airline would eject passengers on the basis of their appearance and nothing else.

Thats because Liberalism has destroyed Europe and the entire European culture.
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DDR
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:02 am

We're all the other passengers just sheep? When people witness crap like this happening they need to step up and protect the rights of others. What is the airline going to do, kick everyone off.

How many times in history have we seen others just sit back and stay silent while others are persecuted?

As for the crew, if they are that afraid of people, then they need to find other jobs.

When I got hired it was understood that ALL of our guests (passengers) were welcome onboard our flights. Seriously, enough is enough.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:03 am

I have no clue what ad hominem means here, and I don't care. And I've had six years of Latin.
Anyway, I don't call people looking like thugs because they are not white.
 
QF29
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:10 am

Must of been an avid Fox News viewer.....



In all seriousness tho, this is a pretty serious case of Racism, you cant just go and kick someone of the flight because the look "Muslim"...
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:36 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 57):
It will be interesting to see how this plays out if these guys are really serious about going through the litigation process. They will be asked a lot of uncomfortable questions and the airline and crew will no doubt have its own story

Wow, 57 reply's before someone even suggested there MIGHT be more to the story. Traditionally A-net tends to defend the crew at all costs, assuming the passengers are not telling the whole truth about the incident, and of course the airlines always refuse to comment, so we don't get their side.

Also, the linked article never says they were kicked off for "looking too Muslim" except in the click-bait headline. Instead is says the gate agent told them: "the stewardess and the captain felt uneasy with us being on the flight,”[because] “There were inconsistencies of our behavior traveling as a group, because two of us upgraded and two of us didn’t.”

It goes on to say:
M.K. says he asked the agent if they were thrown off because of their appearance....The agent said their appearance “did not help,” according to the suit.

I was not there, and have no clue what really happened, but if I had to guess, I would say there is more to the story.
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LTC8K6
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:47 am

So what's the other side of the story?

Why are we going all this way off of one version of events?

From their lawyers and the NY Daily News yet...
 
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:30 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 32):
So you can fly with a comfort Turkey but not with brown human friends, we live in very enlightened times.

Or worse, this genius can walk through the world's busiest airport... and any cops who question what he's doing, get threatened with legal action.

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MSYPI7185
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 48):
Or worse, this genius can walk through the world's busiest airport... and any cops who question what he's doing, get threatened with legal action.

If no laws are being broken, what is the issue? Is this what I would do? No.
If he is using his right to open carry and not breaking any law I see no problem. However to expect not to be questioned in an airport lobby is unreasonable. I could open carry where I live, but I don't.

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

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AirCalSNA
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:53 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 27):

So what's the other side of the story?

Why are we going all this way off of one version of events?

From their lawyers and the NY Daily News yet...

Exactly. We need to hear all of the facts developed from the legal proceeding. I'm immediately a bit suspicious that the passengers ran to the press, which seems in my opinion to be an attempt to sway the jury pool. I also know from experience and talking to other lawyers that clients sometimes fail to tell their own lawyers the full story until the last minute (and they are about to be put under oath), although I'm not saying is happening here. We can't know at this point that the passengers did something to provoke being kicked off or that other passengers expressed concern to the airline personnel.

Even so, my heart would not be bleeding for these guys if I saw them escorted off of a plane I was on.
 
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:56 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
Knee-jerk hypersensitivity much? Longhauler's context was these things happening in America, hence the subject 'Americans'. If you'd like to discuss things happening elsewhere, anyone can start a thread.

No need for a new thread. Knee-jerk hypersensitivity? No. We are talking about something that happened in the US, but the quote was interpreted by me as a broad brush remark that implied that Americans are unreasonable. Not the fight crew was unreasonable, but Americans. That remark naturally implies Americans are unreasonable, hence the remark made by myself and one other.

However if you have any information that the flight crew was unreasonable and the facts are the passengers were removed because of their appearance/religion/etc, please share this with us.

MD

[Edited 2016-01-18 19:01:23]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:58 am

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 31):
That remark naturally implies Americans are unreasonable, hence the remark made by myself and one other.

OK, I suppose that makes sense, except the sentence contained the modifier 'some', as in 'some Americans are...' That, by definition, is not a broad brush.
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ytz
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:07 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 27):

So what's the other side of the story?

For once. Doesn't seem to be really much else. Or the airline would have really been out with it. Who wants a PR hit like this?

Their lawyers must love this case. An observant Sikh wearing a turban is like an orthodox Jew wearing a yamulkah, or a nun wearing a habit. It's religious garb, not cultural garb. So on the face of it, it's a civil rights violation. And the airline doesn't seemed to have proffered any counter-narrative. So what's here is a breach of the contract of carriage (or at least a delay) along with a civil rights violation. It'll be interesting what if any excuse there is.

Airlines should state a dress code if they're going to start denying boarding based simply on crew discomfort. If not, they can accept the liability that comes with their crews latitude to exercise race-based preference for customer service.
 
kq747
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:11 am

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 38):
Thats racism. Why should they be banned for having an Israeli passport?

Because Saudi Arabia (and Kuwait) do not agree with the policies of Israel. It is an issue of diplomatic ties and those countries do not recognise Israel as a state, similar to how many other governments do not recognise Kosovo at an independent state. It is NOT racism. Israel is multi-ethnic country with people who trace their ancestry from all over the world including Egypt, Germany, Ethiopia, Russia, Yemen, Algeria, Spain (and of course Palestine). They include a Jewish majority, but also many Christians and Muslims. The thing they all have in common is that they hold a passport issued by the Israeli Government.
 
ytz
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:26 am

All great press for the ME3. Incidents like these only reinforce the ME3 brands among all those immigrant communities that use them. What's the chances that an EK crew would feel discomfort from 4 "Muslim looking" brown guys sitting in F?
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:31 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 33):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 27):

So what's the other side of the story?

For once. Doesn't seem to be really much else. Or the airline would have really been out with it. Who wants a PR hit like this?

Their lawyers must love this case. An observant Sikh wearing a turban is like an orthodox Jew wearing a yamulkah, or a nun wearing a habit. It's religious garb, not cultural garb. So on the face of it, it's a civil rights violation. And the airline doesn't seemed to have proffered any counter-narrative. So what's here is a breach of the contract of carriage (or at least a delay) along with a civil rights violation. It'll be interesting what if any excuse there is.

Airlines should state a dress code if they're going to start denying boarding based simply on crew discomfort. If not, they can accept the liability that comes with their crews latitude to exercise race-based preference for customer service.

There would be little if any value to the airline in engaging in a war of words via the press. The passengers know that public opinion is already against them, which is why they are trying to build sympathy via the press. This dispute will die with a modest, confidential settlement I predict.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:54 am

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 29):
If no laws are being broken, what is the issue?

...because "legal" is always a direct reflection of "should/wise," right?



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 29):
However to expect not to be questioned in an airport lobby is unreasonable.

So if you understood the point, what was the purpose in your above rebuttal?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
csavel
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:59 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 13):
They do look like thugs, although I'm not sure if they "look" Muslim (whatever that means). In any event I would be glad to see them booted off of my flight, since I would prefer not to be trapped in an aluminum cylinder with them for any more time than necessary. It will be interesting to see how the legal positions play out.

Not quite sure what your definition of 'thug' is but they look like 90% of people under 30 who are not dressed for work. I think you would have a hard time avoiding people whom you classify as 'thugs' if you are basing it on this. You might actually, you know strike up a conversation with a person you think looks like a thug. Might open your eyes, just sayin'.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 16):
Brown / beige / gay = New York values

And this New Yorker is proud of it!!!

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 25):

How many Jews are allowed to fly on Saudi Arabian Airlines? Talk about racism.

No Israelis, for sure but I do know Jews who have flied Saudi Arabian airlines, as long as they don't have an Israeli passport and have a visa, they go.I know someone with a *very* "Jewish" name but who is from Chicago. He had business there. He flew Saudi Arabian. Non-issue.
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:21 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 28):
'Murika.

Well, technically it happened in Canada   so maybe the gate agent is a Canadian plant.
I presume these guys made it through pre-clearance which makes the travel pattern and partial upgrade excuse by the airline a bit flimsy.
It would be interesting to read more facts on the incident.
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:04 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 13):
In any event I would be glad to see them booted off of my flight, since I would prefer not to be trapped in an aluminum cylinder with them for any more time than necessary.

Wow. Just...wow. Congratulations on being part of the problem.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:28 am

The one guy is very obviously a Sikh, the other has a haircut often seen by Sikhs and the other 2 look very Indian. I wonder where this FA has been living.
 
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gatibosgru
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:33 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 13):

They do look like thugs, although I'm not sure if they "look" Muslim (whatever that means). In any event I would be glad to see them booted off of my flight, since I would prefer not to be trapped in an aluminum cylinder with them for any more time than necessary. It will be interesting to see how the legal positions play out.

Sounds like a personal problem, if you don't wanna be in a plane with "thug looking" people maybe tiy should fly private. Otherwise just sit quietly and deal with it.

Would honestly love to hear your definition of thug.
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AirIndia
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:37 am

Toronto has a relatively large Sikh population and spotting turbaned sikhs is not uncommon there. SHoudl not have been confusing for YYZ based agents.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 39):
Wow. Just...wow. Congratulations on being part of the problem.

Absolutely!
 
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pvjin
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:50 am

I would get this if they were women who insisted to wear burkhas that cover their faces, I wouldn't exactly feel safe anywhere near such an extreme people either. But that probably wasn't the case as these people were men, so I suppose they definitely deserve compensation.
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Aaron747
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:03 am

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 42):
Sounds like a personal problem, if you don't wanna be in a plane with "thug looking" people maybe tiy should fly private. Otherwise just sit quietly and deal with it.

I don't want to be on planes with smelly people, crying babies, or the morbidly obese - all three of which are perfectly possible when boarding a flight to/from the US. But that's the risk one takes when traveling with the public. See what I did there, AirCAL???
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Groover158
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:08 am

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
This is interesting. It's a flight operated by Republic, masquerading as American Eagle, owned by American airlines.

Who is the responsible party?

Whichever of the above has the most money?
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:24 am

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 42):
Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 13):

They do look like thugs, although I'm not sure if they "look" Muslim (whatever that means). In any event I would be glad to see them booted off of my flight, since I would prefer not to be trapped in an aluminum cylinder with them for any more time than necessary. It will be interesting to see how the legal positions play out.

Sounds like a personal problem, if you don't wanna be in a plane with "thug looking" people maybe tiy should fly private. Otherwise just sit quietly and deal with it.

Would honestly love to hear your definition of thug.

Of course I would sit quietly and deal with it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be glad to see them go. Flying is not like riding a bus or sitting a room with someone ... there is a degree of danger and loss of control that is unique to flying. Otherwise airlines and airplanes would not be a standard target for terrorists. That's why airline personnel have the power they do in that environment. Pretty obvious, right?

And as for it being a personal problem of mine, again the facts speak for themselves. Apparently there was sufficient alarm in the mind of an airline captain to decide that these men were unwanted on this flight. I have yet to have that problem, even when I traveled with groups of friends in my younger years. Interesting.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:59 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):

Not the least bit surprised to read such xenophobic generalisations in a thread about xenophobic generalisations.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:00 am

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 21):
Thats because Liberalism has destroyed Europe and the entire European culture.

European culture?


You realise that Europe is made up of many distinct countries, each with their own unique cultural identities?

Even within individual countries, there are different cultures.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the thread topic; unless there are some mitigating circumstances which have yet to become clear; those crew members involved in the decision to debark the 4 should be sacked for gross stupidity.

[Edited 2016-01-19 02:01:58]
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9835
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:38 am

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 47):
Not the least bit surprised to read such xenophobic generalisations in a thread about xenophobic generalisations.

Snark detector must not be working:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
...from the US. But that's the risk one takes when traveling with the public. See what I did there, AirCAL???
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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