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N62NA
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:55 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 94):
Both airlines I think. AA sold the ticket. The contract of carriage is between AA and pax. It will be hard for AA to brush it off entirely on Republic.

But why would AA crew need "additional training" when they weren't operating the flight?
 
Flaps
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:39 pm

Disgusting thread on all fronts.

I'm not sure which group of people on here are more hell bent on making themselves look like the bigger a$$es, the ones on the anti brown rant, the ones on the anti American rant or the ones on the anti white rant. In my eyes you're all acting and looking like arrogant, condescending jerks. Many agree that there may be more to the story yet continue hell bent on displaying their personal prejudices/viewpoints/ignorance and arrogance regardless.

I wasn't there. I don't know the whole story (or any of the real facts) and apparently no one else here does either. But by all means don't let that stop the merciless ignorance and bombast from flying anyway. The United States is a huge and diverse country. Not everyone gets around to see other other cultures, not everyone gets the opportunity to travel and be exposed to such things. That doesn't make them bigoted, rude or anything else. If you are someone of means or education that has such opportunities, try being thankful for that instead of being condescending and deeming inferior others who have no had such opportunity.

I know what a Sikh looks like. I can tell the difference between an Indian and a "Middle Easterner". Why? Not because I'm superior, not because of my extensive travel but due to the simple fact that there is a Hindu temple quite near my home which in turn hosts a large Indian population. Hence I know these people as neighbors and community members. A quirk of fate not personal or moral superiority.

If these gentlemen were tossed for purely racial reasons there will most certainly be just compensation and civil penaties. I hope that was not the case but recognize that it may have been. It will come out in court where it is supposed to. I find it sad and pathetic that so many individuals here are literally tripping over each other in an effort outdo each other in displaying their arrogance and ignorance in the face of literally no facts on every side of the issue. Look no further than this thread to see why the people of this world cannot get along.
 
art
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:11 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 102):
I wasn't there. I don't know the whole story (or any of the real facts) and apparently no one else here does either. But by all means don't let that stop the merciless ignorance and bombast from flying anyway. The United States is a huge and diverse country. Not everyone gets around to see other other cultures, not everyone gets the opportunity to travel and be exposed to such things. That doesn't make them bigoted, rude or anything else. If you are someone of means or education that has such opportunities, try being thankful for that instead of being condescending and deeming inferior others who have no had such opportunity.

I don't think that a lack of knowledge of things non-American is per se due to lack of opportunity. I have the impression that the culture of America is such that its citizens have little curiosity about things non-American. The effect I perceive is that Americans know comparatively little of other cultures which hampers them in making informed decisions where non-Americans are concerned. Such as kicking people off an aircraft because they are perceived as some kind of threat.
 
Flaps
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:34 am

Quoting art (Reply 103):
I have the impression that the culture of America is such that its citizens have little curiosity about things non-American.

Based on?

Quoting art (Reply 103):
The effect I perceive is that Americans know comparatively little of other cultures which hampers them in making informed decisions where non-Americans are concerned.

In some cases I would agree. Again though consider the fact that you are lumping over 300,000,000 people into one category. That's a pretty big generalization. Especially considering that we have no information whatsoever as to the ethnicity of either the pilot/crew or the gate agents in this case. There is a massive level of diversity in both of those ranks and again it is quite the leap to judgement that the AA crew and staff were either white or even of "American" birth or culture. There seems to be a great deal of unsupported assumptions in this thread.

Assumption - When we ASSUME - Ass+U+Me, we make an ass of you and me.

I do respect and appreciate the civility and dignity of your response. A nice change from many of the posters in this thread.
 
747megatop
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:36 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 102):
I can tell the difference between an Indian and a "Middle Easterner".

No you can't; neither can anyone just by looking at a person. Point being that people can't tell the difference between an Indian, Pakistani, Egyptian, Bangladeshi or, hell for that matter Sanjay Gupta of CNN fame who is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjay_Gupta). Same as one can't tell the difference between a Canadian, American, Australian or South African white OR how one can't tell the difference between folks from far east asia (i made the mistake of assuming a consultant at work was from China while he turned out to be an immigrant from Indonesia).

But i agree, we need to wait for more facts since we were not on the flight.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:41 am

Quoting art (Reply 103):
I have the impression that the culture of America is such that its citizens have little curiosity about things non-American.

That has been my experience too.

Quoting art (Reply 103):
The effect I perceive is that Americans know comparatively little of other cultures which hampers them in making informed decisions where non-Americans are concerned. Such as kicking people off an aircraft because they are perceived as some kind of threat.

In the year 2000, according to the stats, there were only 48 million US passports. That figure has now risen to more the 110 million passports, yet the US population is well over 300 million population.

That should indicate that only a third of Americans travel abroad, so an ignorance of other cultures is to be expected.
 
art
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 104):
Quoting art (Reply 103):I have the impression that the culture of America is such that its citizens have little curiosity about things non-American.
Based on?

Spending time with and talking to dozens of Americans and many, many hundreds (thousands but how many I'm not sure) of npn-Americans. The contrast in knowledge of cultures apart from their own has been striking to me.

Thanks for your civility, too.
 
N1120A
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:49 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 106):
In the year 2000, according to the stats, there were only 48 million US passports. That figure has now risen to more the 110 million passports, yet the US population is well over 300 million population.

A good deal of that growth was due to the WHTI. There are a lot of US citizens who limited their international exposure to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:05 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 102):
I can tell the difference between an Indian and a "Middle Easterner".

No you can't, not with certainity. You can based on some attributes like a Sikh turban vs an Arab outfit. And you think you can tell based on your local temple, but that's because your local community is most likely a localized Indian population. But India is a lot more heterogeneous, and we've natural born citizens who can pass for white, middle eastern, east asian or black.
 
Flaps
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:46 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 105):
No you can't; neither can anyone just by looking at a person. Point being that people can't tell the difference between an Indian, Pakistani, Egyptian, Bangladeshi or, hell for that matter Sanjay Gupta of CNN fame who is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjay_Gupta). Same as one can't tell the difference between a Canadian, American, Australian or South African white OR how one can't tell the difference between folks from far east asia (i made the mistake of assuming a consultant at work was from China while he turned out to be an immigrant from Indonesia).
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 109):
No you can't, not with certainity. You can based on some attributes like a Sikh turban vs an Arab outfit. And you think you can tell based on your local temple, but that's because your local community is most likely a localized Indian population. But India is a lot more heterogeneous, and we've natural born citizens who can pass for white, middle eastern, east asian or black.

Upon further thought I'll agree with that. I didn't really think that through. I stand corrected.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:14 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 102):
The United States is a huge and diverse country. Not everyone gets around to see other other cultures, not everyone gets the opportunity to travel and be exposed to such things. That doesn't make them bigoted, rude or anything else.

With all due respect, I understand the spirit of your post but some of us did use qualifiers that clearly state some Americans... - such comments are not to be read as a catch-all encompassing 300+ million people.

While there are definitely different levels of opportunity for cultural exposure among people, there is also a tendency to hear bits and bobs of things on the news, and then develop knee-jerk emotional reactions to them. When those reactions are based on characteristics of people, it's fair to say there are numerous ways to find out more about people unknown to oneself than cementing a permanent characterization. So maybe it does not make one 'bigoted or rude' but I disagree with 'anything else' - it does make the persons I describe above incurious and quick to judge.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:04 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 84):
The behaviour is horrendous on the part of staff,but not 9 million dollars horrendous - they missed their flight and were hugely embarrassed but their lives were not in danger (say by Medical misconduct) nor were they arrested or beaten .

In this country, racial discrimination is not accepted by the broader populace. Any company engaging in it should feel some serious pain.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:15 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 92):
Airlines have essentially unlimited budgets

I don't disagree, only on their willingness to spend their money unless they are regulated to.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
In this country, racial discrimination is not accepted by the broader populace

I think that depends on perspective, in your country racial discrimination is an all day every day occurrence in many facets of society going back many decades and it is accepted far more widely than you think, or this crap wouldn't keep happening again and again and again across business after business, airline after airline.

If people were feeling ethical as opposed to morally superior they would boycott the airline completely and avoid travel on them to try and put them out of business (or take a far bigger chunk out of their profits), but they don't. Money always buys off moral outrage in the end.

Whether or not they get money or not is not the point, the goal is surely to stop it happening again first and foremost..
 
blueflyer
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:18 am

Quoting Malayil (Reply 59):
Wow...so all Muslims and brown people are bad? The hatred on this thread is unreal.

Try ignorance. Going from brown to Muslim without further thought simply shows how appallingly ignorant some people are. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic. If they knew there are more non-Muslim brown people in the world than there are US citizens, their brain would explode.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 84):
The behaviour is horrendous on the part of staff,but not 9 million dollars horrendous

Unfortunately, a sizable monetary award is how the US communicates that a behavior is totally unacceptable and shall not be tolerated. Sizable because it will go unnoticed by management unless it is large enough to make a corporation's legal insurance policy premium go up... A small award is a cost of doing business.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 106):
In the year 2000, according to the stats, there were only 48 million US passports. That figure has now risen to more the 110 million passports, yet the US population is well over 300 million population.

The increase in the number of passports is due almost entirely to the requirement imposed post 9/11 to have a passport to return from such exotic destinations as all-inclusive never-leave-the-property beach resorts in Cancun and the Caribbean islands that would look and feel no different if they were in Florida, save for the easier access to alcohol. The only foreign culture these travelers acquire is the cheap souvenir made in China they buy at the airport.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:24 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 113):
If people were feeling ethical as opposed to morally superior they would boycott the airline completely and avoid travel on them to try and put them out of business (or take a far bigger chunk out of their profits), but they don't. Money always buys off moral outrage in the end.

Because the ethical thing is to put over 100,000 employees out of a job based on the behavior of less than 0.1% of the work force? Not to mention that no airline has a lock on ignorant staff and you're advocating for the shut down of the entire aviation industry in the US.

I think it'd be more appropriate if, in some cases such as this (provided that the account is accurate), employees are loudly and very publicly terminated to signal that the behavior is totally unacceptable.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:47 am

Quoting rampbro (Reply 1):
Donald Trump
Quoting QF29 (Reply 24):
Must of been an avid Fox News viewer.....

Pure Flamebait   

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 21):
Thats because Liberalism has destroyed Europe and the entire European culture.

Actually, liberalism in the classic sense is not at fault.

Progressivism and the blind delusion of "multiculturalism" are the culprits. In Europe, they're figuring it out the hard way, unfortunately.

Why do you think the left pushes for ideologies of that ilk in Western countries but not in Africa, India of China?

Which leads to this:

Quoting Flaps (Reply 102):
I'm not sure which group of people on here are more hell bent on making themselves look like the bigger a$$es, the ones on the anti brown rant, the ones on the anti American rant or the ones on the anti white rant. In my eyes you're all acting and looking like arrogant, condescending jerks.

And Flaps is right. A ton of you are being tough "you know what" and not thinking.

Racial discrimination is wrong. For that matter, any discrimination of any kind is wrong. That's not the problem.

The problem is selective outrage.

Women in Europe are being openly and blatantly harassed and even assaulted by Syrian "immigrants" and the government, who pushes for multiculturalism and all this immigration, do nothing! Hell, even the police, notably in Germany, don't do anything in fear of being called a racist or a xenophobe. They would rather lose their cultural identity, country and way of life to a bunch of throwbacks.

No one bats an eye!

An African American criminal is shot by someone who happens to have less pigment in their skin while committing a crime and everyone loses their friggin' minds! Front page news for weeks! Black Lives Matters shuts down a freeway for hours in protest! Oh dear!

If it can't be blamed on the evil white person, it's not relevant. Look at what a certain Democrat nominee for president in the United States said. He's said that "white people should apologize for slavery."

Yes, mister Bernie Sanders, I'm going to apologize for something that people of my own color did 160 years ago and one ocean away from where my respected families comes from, you demented psycho troglodyte, you!

Racism is alive and well  
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:19 am

As the captain is not working for AA, AA should ban him from flights done for AA.

Republic should fire that guy, he was misusing his authority.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 116):
The problem is selective outrage.

Women in Europe are being openly and blatantly harassed and even assaulted by Syrian "immigrants" and the government, who pushes for multiculturalism and all this immigration, do nothing! Hell, even the police, notably in Germany, don't do anything in fear of being called a racist or a xenophobe. They would rather lose their cultural identity, country and way of life to a bunch of throwbacks.

No one bats an eye

How do you know that no one bats an Eye?

If no one would bat an eye, you would never have heard about it. Everyone was batting eyes, because it was exactly what "folks" were waiting for. The police chief of Cologne had to take his hat and retire. And it seems not to be Syrian refugees but mainly Moroccan or from other places in North Africa having been in Germany for quite a while.
And it is not what all were talking about, terrorists, but not so petty normal criminals and rapists, that of course do not exist between the normal European population.   

[Edited 2016-01-21 03:39:50]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:24 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 117):
If no one would bat an eye, you would never have heard about it. Everyone was batting eyes, because it was exactly what "folks" were waiting for. The police chief of Cologne had to take his hat and retire. And it seems not to be Syrian refugees but mainly Moroccan or from other places in North Africa having been in Germany for quite a while.
And it is not what all were talking about, terrorists, but not so petty normal criminals and rapists, that of course do not exist between the normal European population.  

The guy just obviously needs an SSRI or Xanax. Better to leave well enough alone.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
In this country, racial discrimination is not accepted by the broader populace.

This.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:57 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 113):
in your country racial discrimination is an all day every day occurrence in many facets of society going back many decades and it is accepted far more widely than you think

Is there a country where that is not the case?
 
747megatop
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
In this country, racial discrimination is not accepted by the broader populace.

Partially true; but unfortunately like it or not quite a bit of media bias and difference in treatment by law enforcement exists whether we like it or not. Prime example being - http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-standof...eeting-hears-chants-065757067.html .So far i have heard "armed group" "protesters" etc. to describe the folks revolting occupying federal land who are threatening to use their guns if law enforcement steps in; citizens are afraid; you can bet anything that the law enforcement response (and the media response) would have been different if a group of colored people were involved; and appalingly i haven't heard the word "terrorists" to describe those bunch of idiots. Same with the guy who shot up a bunch of innocent folks in SC with the intent to start a so called race war. We saw the usual "mentally sick with a difficult childhood" BS on media and not a single time did the word "terrorist" get used. So, go figure; do we still pretend that racial discrimnation doesn't exist?
 
alfa164
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:48 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 116):

Quoting rampbro (Reply 1):
Donald Trump
Quoting QF29 (Reply 24):
Must of been an avid Fox News viewer.....

Pure Flamebait

Flamebait? From what I see and hear, it is Trump and Faux News that do all the baiting... race-baiting, ethnic-baiting... simple hate-baiting...

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 113):
people were feeling ethical as opposed to morally superior they would boycott the airline completely and avoid travel on them to try and put them out of business (or take a far bigger chunk out of their profits), but they don't. Money always buys off moral outrage in the end.
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 115):
Because the ethical thing is to put over 100,000 employees out of a job based on the behavior of less than 0.1% of the work force? Not to mention that no airline has a lock on ignorant staff and you're advocating for the shut down of the entire aviation industry in the US.

   Every airline - just like every company, every political party, or every social group - is made up of many good people, and a l(hopefully) lesser number of bad actors.

The important thing to watch is how AA/Republic respond to this incident. That will tell us whether to respect the companies as a whole, or feel concern about their attitudes.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:14 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 101):
But why would AA crew need "additional training" when they weren't operating the flight?

I was describing would be held civilly liable. But yes the gate agents in YYZ are AA staff, so they maybe due some retraining as well.
 
art
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:31 am

The scale of the reaction is not sensible. While the actions of the airline employees were misguided and unacceptable, resulting in delay and embarrassment to their customers, claiming compensation equivalent to many years' average income from working full time is... ridiculous. If I were paid $1 million for being delayed for a few hours and made to feel uncomfortable (or $100,000 or $10,000), I would be hoping and praying the crew of the next flight I booked would deem me to look 'too muslim' and refuse me passage for that 'reason'.
 
delta2ual
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:01 pm

Quoting art (Reply 102):
I don't think that a lack of knowledge of things non-American is per se due to lack of opportunity. I have the impression that the culture of America is such that its citizens have little curiosity about things non-American. The effect I perceive is that Americans know comparatively little of other cultures which hampers them in making informed decisions where non-Americans are concerned. Such as kicking people off an aircraft because they are perceived as some kind of threat.

I think anyone can make generalizations about their personal experiences. I'm dating myself, but when I was a child we had no internet. In fact, we had only 3 television channels (no cable then). I didn't travel abroad until I was 23. It wasn't because my parents had no interest in taking us; they both worked full time and the US does not have the luxury of vacation time and other paid time off that many other parts of the world take for granted.
Once I did travel abroad, I did it a lot as a 15 year international flight attendant. I have many friends in Europe and if anyone thinks racism and stupidity is only a problem here, that has not been my experience. My friends from France and Belgium constantly complain about "the Arabics" (their words).
My neighbor across the street moved here from the UK 13 years ago and was complaining to me the other day about all the Latinos here in Florida, going so far as to ask how Puerto Ricans are able to come here and work. Obviously, she doesn't realize that Puerto Rico is a US territory and they have every right to be here (probably more so than she does).
My point being, as an American with dual citizenship (my grandparents came from Italy which allowed me to get my Italian citizenship in 2013), I am also appalled by the hateful rhetoric of many here in the US. But when people make broad statements about how stupid Americans are or that only 48 million people here have a passport, I find it a little insulting. There are a lot of Americans who cannot afford to travel (the middle class is getting smaller here) or who simply choose to use their limited time off from work to stay home with their families.
I think we should look at the actions of this crew as just that-THEIR actions. Let's not take their actions, add the fact that Donald Trump is popular among a certain group of people, and come to the conclusion that Americans must be stupid, racist, and have no desire to learn about other cultures. Especially when xenophobic attitudes are certainly not unique to Americans.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:19 pm

Quoting art (Reply 122):
The scale of the reaction is not sensible. While the actions of the airline employees were misguided and unacceptable, resulting in delay and embarrassment to their customers, claiming compensation equivalent to many years' average income from working full time is... ridiculous.

These are not compensatory damages but punitive damages. They are meant to punish and not to redress reasonable losses on the part of the plaintiff. As such, they have no relationship with whatever the latter may have lost in terms of time or money (i.e. compensatory), and entirely about ensuring the sum is large enough to hurt and therefore result in actionable reform on the part of the defendant.

By their very nature they can be more easily appealed by the defendant, since their amount is subjective in nature. Therefore any discussion on whether $9 million is too little, reasonable or too large, is entirely a subjective matter. The dozens of posts arguing that these damages are too high, just fall into one side of the subjective viewpoint.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 123):

You make a good point, travel should broaden the mind if you are willing to learn from your experiences of other cultures. America is blessed with such a large land mass,compared to the countries in europe, that it must be easy to spend your life within your own state and not travel abroad. That is a shame that more people do not travel outside their comfort zone and see just how diverse this planet and its people are.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:21 am

Today, Dilbert has a cartoon showing exactly what happened:
http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-01-27/

 
ytz
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:04 pm

Quoting art (Reply 122):
The scale of the reaction is not sensible. While the actions of the airline employees were misguided and unacceptable, resulting in delay and embarrassment to their customers, claiming compensation equivalent to many years' average income from working full time is... ridiculous. If I were paid $1 million for being delayed for a few hours and made to feel uncomfortable (or $100,000 or $10,000), I would be hoping and praying the crew of the next flight I booked would deem me to look 'too muslim' and refuse me passage for that 'reason'.

I don't think you get how the law works. There's a reason, when you file a suit like this, you claim high punitive damages.
 
777way
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:23 pm

The brown guy is a typical secular looking subcontinent male, he could be from any country of that region and of any religion from there, most certainly not the look of an Arab or even typical Muslim, maybe they saw his types in the Gulf where such men are a common sight as expat workers.
 
hohd
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting AYVN (Reply 10):

9 million is not enough, they should sue the airline out of existence then others would really think hard about kicking out passengers.
 
art
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:45 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 129):
9 million is not enough, they should sue the airline out of existence then others would really think hard about kicking out passengers

A lot of organisations and companies have employees who are not 100% perfect in their judgement 100% of the time. Are you suggesting that every time an employee of a company makes a mistake the company should be sued out of existence?
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:32 pm

Quoting art (Reply 130):
A lot of organisations and companies have employees who are not 100% perfect in their judgement 100% of the time. Are you suggesting that every time an employee of a company makes a mistake the company should be sued out of existence?

Throwing people of a plane because they are Muslim is not a mistake, it is intentional. Has the captain been fired and the FA been reprimanded?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 116):
And it seems not to be Syrian refugees but mainly Moroccan or from other places in North Africa having been in Germany for quite a while.

Actually, having talked to a Morroccan colleague (son of immigrants from the 1970s, who has been living here in Germany for his whole life), the troublemakers were for most part known criminals from Morroccoa, Algeria and Tunesia, who came to Germany riding on the wave of genuine refugees. They know that they will not get accepted as refugees, but that the process of getting them deported can take up to three years due to the bottleneck at the immigration authority in processing theirt claims (as per the German constitution every person has the right to get their asylum claim heard by the authorities and their decision can be challenged in court), so they try to grab as much and have as much "fun" as they can while being here. Somebody in the Morroccan government is very happy of having gotten rid of their criminal scum. Add to this that compared to Morroccan police, German police is considered to be "soft" (In Morrocco a person arrested for issues like sexual assault, theft etc., will most likely first get beaten up by the police in the station and then get thrown into a cockroach hotel type of prison cell). The local, long established Morroccan community, like my colleague, want these criminals to get the same treatment here and have themthrown out ASAP, they are harder than the German rightwings.

Jan
 
copter808
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 131):
Throwing people of a plane because they are Muslim is not a mistake, it is intentional. Has the captain been fired and the FA been reprimanded?

I would consider it a "mistake" in judgement. We are able to sit here and judge the pilot and situation well AFTER the incident happened--the pilot did not have that luxury of time. Perhaps he made what seemed to be the best choice to him at the time. One of the limitations of being human is that we sometimes make decisions that turn out to be very wrong once all the facts are known.

Do I think he made the "right" decision? No, I most certainly do NOT!!! But not being there, and not having the luxury of being able to see into his head and know what he was thinking, I'm not going to be so quick to say he is wrong and should be fired.

How many airlines would be still in existence if the fired everyone who made a mistake? Not only might they be firing someone who they have invested a substantial amount of money in, but a reputation like that would also result in hiring and retention issues soon afterward.

Do I think someone should never be terminated? NO. But many members of this forum act far to fast to call for firing before the facts are known.
 
copter808
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:33 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 125):
That is a shame that more people do not travel outside their comfort zone and see just how diverse this planet and its people are.

Perhaps our schools should require some kind of international travel prior to graduation. I also was one who had a very limited view of the world before traveling extensively and learning how ignorant I was.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9652
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RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:21 pm

Quoting copter808 (Reply 133):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 131):
Throwing people of a plane because they are Muslim is not a mistake, it is intentional. Has the captain been fired and the FA been reprimanded?

I would consider it a "mistake" in judgement. We are able to sit here and judge the pilot and situation well AFTER the incident happened--the pilot did not have that luxury of time. Perhaps he made what seemed to be the best choice to him at the time. One of the limitations of being human is that we sometimes make decisions that turn out to be very wrong once all the facts are known.

Do I think he made the "right" decision? No, I most certainly do NOT!!! But not being there, and not having the luxury of being able to see into his head and know what he was thinking, I'm not going to be so quick to say he is wrong and should be fired.

How many airlines would be still in existence if the fired everyone who made a mistake? Not only might they be firing someone who they have invested a substantial amount of money in, but a reputation like that would also result in hiring and retention issues soon afterward.

Do I think someone should never be terminated? NO. But many members of this forum act far to fast to call for firing before the facts are known.

A whole shit load of excuses. The captain has the right to deny boarding to a passenger, agreed, the captain has not the right to escape the consequences of his decision. He carries the responsibility for his decision.
To deny boarding because of race or religion is not acceptable and is not a mistake. And where was the time pressure?

Should pilots be terminated for every little mistake, no. But throwing off passenger for their race or religion should lead to instant termination.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 135):
Should pilots be terminated for every little mistake, no. But throwing off passenger for their race or religion should lead to instant termination.

It is interesting you should say this, as where I fly, we have a zero tolerance policy for racism. And ... some employees have been fired for racism.

In fact, it says in our Flight Operations Manual, that when dealing with "suspicious passengers" ... "If during the interaction you feel you would be less suspicious had the suspicious person been any other race, then you ARE racist and racism will not be tolerated".

This policy is also required to be upheld by any contract or regional carrier carrying our passengers.
 
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Mortyman
Posts: 6012
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 46):
Of course I would sit quietly and deal with it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be glad to see them go. Flying is not like riding a bus or sitting a room with someone ... there is a degree of danger and loss of control that is unique to flying. Otherwise airlines and airplanes would not be a standard target for terrorists. That's why airline personnel have the power they do in that environment. Pretty obvious, right?

Busses are sadly also standard targets for terrorists ...
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:56 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 129):
9 million is not enough, they should sue the airline out of existence then others would really think hard about kicking out passengers.

You don't put 100,000 employees out of a job based on the actions of a few. There are not enough reported incidents to label this behavior pervasive and call for the entire group to be punished.

What needs to happen is for the responsible employees to be fired, and fired loudly, so there is no doubt that this behavior is not and will not be tolerated.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 135):
Should pilots be terminated for every little mistake, no. But throwing off passenger for their race or religion should lead to instant termination.

  
 
AYVN
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:47 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 135):
Should pilots be terminated for every little mistake, no. But throwing off passenger for their race or religion should lead to instant termination.

Yes, but maybe the bar of making right call every time shouldn't be set too high. If suspicious activity by some individuals is spotted by you, it shouldn't be 50/50 chance that you will be fired if you dare to do something about it. Even terrorist can defend themselves by shouting "THIS IS RACISM! I WILL GET YOU FIRED!"

[Edited 2016-02-14 12:16:16]
 
777way
Posts: 6457
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Quoting AYVN (Reply 139):
Even terrorist can defend themselves by shouting "THIS IS RACISM! I WILL GET YOU FIRED!"

I dont think it works that way.
 
muzyck
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:54 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:22 pm

I guess I don't need to worry about this being a middle aged Caucasian, but from now on I will make sure I wear my "Make America Great Again" hat and American flag lapel pin when I travel.

Don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.  sarcastic 

[Edited 2016-02-14 14:25:08]
 
copter808
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:28 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 135):
A whole shit load of excuses. The captain has the right to deny boarding to a passenger, agreed, the captain has not the right to escape the consequences of his decision. He carries the responsibility for his decision.
To deny boarding because of race or religion is not acceptable and is not a mistake. And where was the time pressure?

Should pilots be terminated for every little mistake, no. But throwing off passenger for their race or religion should lead to instant termination.

Well, how about if we resolve this by having someone here on Airliners.net who has ALL the facts coming forward and letting us all know the facts.

I'm not defending the pilot for his actions, but there likely is MORE to the story than we have here. Let's wait for the FACTS to come out before we condemn anyone.

The information we have here has come from the media. We all know the "media" is always 100% accurate.
 
mozart
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:59 pm

Quoting copter808 (Reply 133):
I would consider it a "mistake" in judgement. We are able to sit here and judge the pilot and situation well AFTER the incident happened--the pilot did not have that luxury of time. Perhaps he made what seemed to be the best choice to him at the time. One of the limitations of being human is that we sometimes make decisions that turn out to be very wrong once all the facts are known.

Sorry, that doesn't work. What would it be that the Captain would consider if he had the "luxury" of time? For anyone to even for a split second thinking that people have to be kicked off a plane because they look Muslim or for thinking they could be dangerous only because of their looks already puts that person in the racist category. So unless there are other elements then this is not a mistake of judgment where more time had resulted in a different judgment, this is a case for being fundamentally wired the wrong way.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 133):
How many airlines would be still in existence if the fired everyone who made a mistake?

But we are not talking just "a mistake". Racism doesn't happen by mistake. We are talking a violation of civil rights for - apparently - no reason other than looks. If we limited firing of people to those that violate civil rights I think the airline industry would not collapse.
 
copter808
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:18 pm

I don't know what the captain would consider if he had more time. I wasn't there, and I doubt that anyone on this forum was either. Our source of information is the news media--the same people many of us here condemn when they make crazy statements. Some here may, know the FACTS, but I do not. I am only considering what I know.

You are correct that "racism" is not a mistake--and I doubt that there is ANYONE on this forum less racist than I am. But I have also been in a position to see first-hand how what's published in the media is often not even close to what has happened.

I'm still waiting for someone who KNOWS what happened for a FACT to come forward. I'm not holding my breath though.

In many cases the "race card" is one of the first statements out of someone's mouth when they are involved in an incident.
 
muzyck
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:54 pm

RE: Legal Mess: 4 Kicked Off Flight For Looking Muslim

Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:19 am

Yes, I guess it would be good to know all of the facts. Based on the news reports, one could make the mistaken assumption that the cabin crew got upset because a bunch of folks that didn't "belong" here sat in the wrong seats. A real pain. Might want to bring that to the attention of the front office and show them who is really in charge. "The Captain says you must go".

I guess the "facts" will all be made public very soon.

[Edited 2016-02-14 20:20:08]

[Edited 2016-02-14 20:23:16]

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