http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/newleaf-transport-canada-1.3409142
[Edited 2016-01-18 14:57:12]
Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
Finally. Evidence of intelligence.
Launching to Canadian cities in the middle of winter was never that bright.
Launching to Canadian cities in the middle of winter was never that bright.
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- ElPistolero
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting ytz (Reply 1): |
To wit:
“The CTA gave us an exemption from holding a licence directly while it reviews its legislation,” he said in a statement Monday.
“Now, there is ambiguity in the air as to whether we need to amend the relationship with our air service provider, or whether we need to have a licence ourselves,” he continued.
“As with any success that threatens to change the status quo, there are those that will resist that change and take any measures necessary to maintain the existing playing field, even if it is to the detriment of the vast majority and the benefit of the very few.”
Evidently either AC or WS or both decided to obstruct the launch. At least one of them has a long track record of using underhanded tactics to cut competition, so this really shouldn't come as a surprise.
Consumer interest? What is that?
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- sixtyseven
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
It's a half baked launch. Period dot.
But go ahead and blame the government and your competitors for your lack of preparedness and amateur hour launch.
But go ahead and blame the government and your competitors for your lack of preparedness and amateur hour launch.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 2): Evidently either AC or WS or both decided to obstruct the launch. |
That isn't evident at all. I would say a much simpler explanation would be the bureaucratic churn following the change in government we had in October, and the checking of various assumptions made during the run-up to launch. There are probably some public servants who are less likely to go out on various limbs now that Trudeau et al. are in charge.
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- longhauler
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 2): Evidently either AC or WS or both decided to obstruct the launch. |
Gosh, it's a good thing AC is around. Who else could one blame when one fails?
Those of us on this website are not all that educated with regard to airline operations and marketing. But ... even we saw this didn't have a hope in hell in succeeding! I think what is "evident" is that online sales started and ... surprise ... they held a party and no one came. Or, did they really think there was a market from Abbotsford to Hamilton or Saskatoon?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting longhauler (Reply 5): But ... even we saw this didn't have a hope in hell in succeeding! I think what is "evident" is that online sales started and ... surprise ... they held a party and no one came. Or, did they really think there was a market from Abbotsford to Hamilton or Saskatoon? |
I honestly think they are being honest. They will still launch once things are cleared up. There is no way 10 days
is a good sample to determine if they will be successful.
Also don't speak for everyone on A.net because a lot think this should be successful.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
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- longhauler
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 6): Also don't speak for everyone on A.net because a lot think this should be successful. |
I'll bet you a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue that they are not around in 12 months!
But, truth the told, I think the idea of YHM is a good one. (I live about 5 kms north of YHM). Not as a cheap alternative to YYZ, but there are at least a million Canadians closer to YHM than YYZ. The business is there ... why has it never worked?
Think about Canjet Airlines. As we know, they recently shut down passenger operations. They had a fleet of B737s, staff fully trained and experienced, and they held an OC sanctioned and approved by Transport Canada. They have experience in YHM. So ... I am sure at one point in the last 12 months, Ken Rowe sat at his desk with a map of Canada and thought ... what if? Why didn't he think to start something? Why not YHM?
In my opinion, something like Canjet, Sunwing or Transat with B737 operations would be the best candidate to start an ULCC. Not only are they experienced, but, they also have a large corporation backing them.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
As mentioned in previous articles, it was Gabor Lukacs who went after yet another Canadian airline as a "Passenger Rights Advocate". I swear Gabor wants every Canadian airline out of business.
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- airportugal310
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
Sometimes its refreshing to see the Canadians fighting amongst themselves on this website...since they are generally too busy blaming America for everything south of their border!
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
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- ElPistolero
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting longhauler (Reply 5): |
Mea culpa. I was wrong. Turns out it might have been our friend Lucasz. But then again, it's not clear how he benefits from status quo, as suggested by NewLeaf. So... who knows what the driving force behind it was.
Besides, is AC an unreasonable guess? It's not like they ever got caught engaging in predatory pricing to hurt new entrants, eh? Or tried to bully the competition bureau into letting them engage in anti-competitive practices with nonsense about being a 'national champion'?
As for being educated, it appears to me that being educated in 'airlines and marketing' does not stop some here from spreading false information about other airlines.
| Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 9): |
In fairness, America is responsible for everything happening in America (or as you call it, "south of their border").
That aside, the self-righteousness should disappear now that the declining CA$ and eroding standard of living shines a light on the problems in Canada.
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
at least they gave a refund, unlike most startups simply disappeared over night with the money.
YLWBased
YLWBased
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
Flair Air pulled out of the deal. They saw the writing on the wall. It was an impending disaster.
New Leaf is blaming the CTA because it positions it as a "David vs Goliath" story, but the CTA angle is a red herring.
New Leaf need to replace the equity investment that was coming from Flair Air and find new lift.
Neither task will be easy. Having Flair pull out will make it impossible to raise any cash. I'm not sure there's anyone in Canada with 737 capacity.
IMP has been there, done that and Enerjet aren't going to throw out any lifelines given their own aspirations.
Using foreign lift to operate 100% domestic capacity is cabotage and would open up a whole new can of worms. The incumbents would quite rightly yell bloody murder. It's one thing to bring in temporary lift to operate a tiny percentage of the overall capacity, It's another to bring in a foreign airline to operate the entire kit and kaboodle.
Besides, it'd be very difficult and very expensive for a foreign operator to operate New Leaf's schedule. The devil is in the detail.
It is highly unlikely New Leaf will be resurrected.
That's probably a good thing as their plan made Skybus look like pure genius.
New Leaf is blaming the CTA because it positions it as a "David vs Goliath" story, but the CTA angle is a red herring.
New Leaf need to replace the equity investment that was coming from Flair Air and find new lift.
Neither task will be easy. Having Flair pull out will make it impossible to raise any cash. I'm not sure there's anyone in Canada with 737 capacity.
IMP has been there, done that and Enerjet aren't going to throw out any lifelines given their own aspirations.
Using foreign lift to operate 100% domestic capacity is cabotage and would open up a whole new can of worms. The incumbents would quite rightly yell bloody murder. It's one thing to bring in temporary lift to operate a tiny percentage of the overall capacity, It's another to bring in a foreign airline to operate the entire kit and kaboodle.
Besides, it'd be very difficult and very expensive for a foreign operator to operate New Leaf's schedule. The devil is in the detail.
It is highly unlikely New Leaf will be resurrected.
That's probably a good thing as their plan made Skybus look like pure genius.
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- airportugal310
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 10): In fairness, America is responsible for everything happening in America (or as you call it, "south of their border"). That aside, the self-righteousness should disappear now that the declining CA$ and eroding standard of living shines a light on the problems in Canada. |
About as fair an answer as I'm going to get on here. Cheers brother!
[Edited 2016-01-19 00:01:10]
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
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- threepoint
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
Agreed this business plan might not win any accolades, and may be a case study in an MBA course for all the wrong reasons, but I wouldn't be too quick to howl in protest over the mere suggestion that the established domestic carriers may have had a hand in the CTA's amended ruling. It's not like they've been angels in the past - plenty of precedent in which they have used illegal tactics in order to undermine each other and/or start-up airlines.
It may simply be a case of civil servants reviewing licenses as the article states, or the delay might indeed be the result of some fairly adept lobbying of a new government by some very well-paid and connected people. Lord knows there's plenty of motive.
No need to jump to the defense of AC when it hasn't been singled out. Cooleth thy jets.
Nobody recall when WS launched, back in 1996 and was temporarily grounded within months? Nor when the launch of Encore resulted in some massive OTP issues? Speaking of amateur hour...
It may simply be a case of civil servants reviewing licenses as the article states, or the delay might indeed be the result of some fairly adept lobbying of a new government by some very well-paid and connected people. Lord knows there's plenty of motive.
| Quoting longhauler (Reply 5): Gosh, it's a good thing AC is around. Who else could one blame when one fails? |
No need to jump to the defense of AC when it hasn't been singled out. Cooleth thy jets.
| Quoting sixtyseven (Reply 3): It's a half baked launch. Period dot. But go ahead and blame the government and your competitors for your lack of preparedness and amateur hour launch. |
Nobody recall when WS launched, back in 1996 and was temporarily grounded within months? Nor when the launch of Encore resulted in some massive OTP issues? Speaking of amateur hour...
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
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- sixtyseven
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
Are we talking about Encore, Westjet here? I wasn't.
The launch of this airline was a joke. Honestly. I don't think it required any hotline phone calls from Saretsky and Calin to Ottawa to put a damper on it. They did it to themselves. Whether it's the end or not who knows but you can't look at it even from a distance and be surprised.
Air Canada and Westjet are at the same mercy as everyone else when it comes to the bureaucratic nonsense that comes from the regulatory bodies that govern aviation in Canada. New Leaf better turn over a new one it appears.
The launch of this airline was a joke. Honestly. I don't think it required any hotline phone calls from Saretsky and Calin to Ottawa to put a damper on it. They did it to themselves. Whether it's the end or not who knows but you can't look at it even from a distance and be surprised.
Air Canada and Westjet are at the same mercy as everyone else when it comes to the bureaucratic nonsense that comes from the regulatory bodies that govern aviation in Canada. New Leaf better turn over a new one it appears.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
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- threepoint
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
My point was to illustrate that rough beginnings don't necessarily spell the demise of an airline, and that even established airlines can bungle the launch of a new service/route/aircraft type/etc.
The concept of newleaf, like so many of its predecessors, may well be ill-conceived (or we may all be surprised in a year's time to see it remain flying). I tend not to subscribe to conspiracy theories, but having said that, would not be at all surprised to learn that there were many behind the scenes phone calls, or attention drawn to arcane regulations to throw a wrench into the spokes of the incipient carrier. The first target - public confidence - has successfully been assaulted.
The concept of newleaf, like so many of its predecessors, may well be ill-conceived (or we may all be surprised in a year's time to see it remain flying). I tend not to subscribe to conspiracy theories, but having said that, would not be at all surprised to learn that there were many behind the scenes phone calls, or attention drawn to arcane regulations to throw a wrench into the spokes of the incipient carrier. The first target - public confidence - has successfully been assaulted.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
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- longhauler
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting threepoint (Reply 14): No need to jump to the defense of AC when it hasn't been singled out. Cooleth thy jets. |
| Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 2): Evidently either AC or WS or both decided to obstruct the launch. |
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
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- ElPistolero
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting longhauler (Reply 17): |
Really?
Naming both incumbents hardly constitutes singling out AC. Would've thrown PD in too if Newleaf was competing with them.
Methinks one airline doth protesteth too much.
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
To make any airlines work investors have to think really long term and that's why there isn't any new airlines coming up.
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- longhauler
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 18): Naming both incumbents hardly constitutes singling out AC. |
You didn't say both, you said either. And ... you said it was evident that either obstructed the process. Which you later admitted was incorrect. I am not defending AC, WS nor TS, PD, etc etc etc. (I was quoting Richard Nixon.) AC has been used as the excuse for airline failures for 50 years, and those airlines had some pretty half baked schemes that anyone with a brain should have known was doomed to fail.
| Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 18): Methinks one airline doth protesteth too much. |
Personally, I hope both AC and WS flatten any newcomers, because it's business and it's legal! And its my opinion, not the opinion of any airline.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
Canjet, Jetsgo, Greyhound, Roots.... Canadian aviation is littered with corpses who thought they could mount a challenge on an entrenched duopoly. WS succeeded only because one leg of the duopoly of their day was CP, which was already weakened. Today neither WS nor AC is in that kind of dire straits.
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting longhauler (Reply 5): Gosh, it's a good thing AC is around. Who else could one blame when one fails? |
The CPR?
Beech
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- longhauler
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting multimark (Reply 21): WS succeeded only because one leg of the duopoly of their day was CP, which was already weakened. |
I had always thought that WS played that whole scenario very well. They knew a third carrier would not survive, so they just had to sit and wait .... In my opinion, it was the demise of CP that allowed WS to grow to the success it is today.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting jimbo737 (Reply 12): That's probably a good thing as their plan made Skybus look like pure genius. |
And that's an insult to the corpse of Skybus.
This is more like Direct Air, right down to the fly-by-night public charter model and questionable tactics.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
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- ElPistolero
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RE: NewLeaf Discount Airline Postpones Service.
| Quoting longhauler (Reply 20): |
Bit of cognitive dissonance going on. The quote you selected says "either AC or WS or both". What part of that is unclear? As for the bit on obstruction, I took the CEO's words at face value. Is your interpretation of what he said different? Like I said, Lukacs might be involved, but it's hard to see how he stands to gain. In fact, it's hard to see how anyone other than the incumbents stand to gain in the way the CEO suggests.
Regardless, AC's reputation is well earned. Canada's entire approach to aviation anti-competitive behaviour (the avoidable cost test) is based on AC's behaviour against WS. Turns out WS wasn't half-baked.
Flatten them all you want. Just spare us the nonsensical arguments that conflate AC's interests with Canadians' interests.
[Edited 2016-01-19 17:51:46]
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