Delta May Buy CSeries

chrisp390 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:48 pm

Delta just said in its investor call that the CSeries is a very impressive aircraft and would buy it at the right price!

Thoughts?

whywhyzee · Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:52 pm

That would be a darn good looking aircraft in the DL livery, and Richard Anderson is a smart guy, all of the 717s will need replacing, as well as the A319s. Fuel won't stay cheap forever, and the C-series looks to be the perfect smallest gauge aircraft in their fleet.

a380787 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:57 pm

this would be a major shift in strategy - DL and Mr. RA buying an unproven plane without first using others as guinea pigs.

Polot · Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:58 pm

Delta (any airline for that matter) would buy any aircraft "at the right price." Now whether BBD (or Boeing, or Airbus, or whoever) can actually sell it at that price is another matter.

Btblue · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:04 pm

This is positive news for the CSeries programme that could lead to shifting some serious metal now and in the future. Selling the jet at a loss now could lead to faith in the programme later resulting in more sales (not at a loss). I'd love to see the CSeries in Delta colours and I'd love to see the CSeries succeed.

[Edited 2016-01-19 08:05:06]

jbs2886 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:05 pm

Quoting chrisp390 (Thread starter):
Delta just said in its investor call that the CSeries is a very impressive aircraft and would buy it at the right price!

Thoughts?

Just heard that as well. That is a direct quote, "very impressive aircraft." RA was also very complimentary of the engines, saying that it is the biggest development since Boeing's composite technology of the 787.

Also, RA and Delta management met with the CEO of Bombardier in December when the C Series was in Atlanta, according to the call.

Personally, I do think this is a (good) departure from the previous hesitancy over "unproven" aircraft. I think this was a nudge to Bombardier that if they want a big blue chip order, lower the price and Delta will give you that order. The C Series would be fantastic at Delta, particularly as a replacement of the MD88s (although a bit smaller) as bigger than a 100-seater, but not a 737-800/A320 size.

Flighty · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:05 pm

DL would buy any aircraft including new 744s for the right price.

a380787 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:05 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 3):
Delta (any airline for that matter) would buy any aircraft "at the right price."

Only certain manufacturers. Even if offered at $1, I don't think RA would be buying Comac's or Sukhois anytime soon.

Polot · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:09 pm

Quoting jbs2886 (Reply 5):
Just heard that as well. That is a direct quote, "very impressive aircraft." RA was also very complimentary of the engines, saying that it is the biggest development since Boeing's composite technology of the 787.

That settles it, no C-series for DL. After all we all know RA hates Boeing, and especially the 787, with a fiery passion and that none will ever be in DL's fleet as long as he is still kicking. So any comparison to the 787 is a negative.

xdlx · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:14 pm

IIRC the B717 comes for 120k cycles out of the box, when normal is 60-80k cycles for rest of the fleet. The Cseries indeed can come to replace the 190 ( not in property yet ).

runway23 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:24 pm

If the right price for Delta is 1$ then anything above means they will never buy it. It's a comment which means absolutely nothing.

Sooner787 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:25 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 4):
This is positive news for the CSeries programme that could lead to shifting some serious metal now and in the future. Selling the jet at a loss now could lead to faith in the programme later resulting in more sales (not at a loss). I'd love to see the CSeries in Delta colours and I'd love to see the CSeries succeed.

IIRC McDonnell Douglas used that strategy to sell the 1st batch of Super 80's to
Bob Crandall and AA. That eventually led to AA operating 360 plus Super 80's
for more than 2 decades

Quantos · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:27 pm

There's a huge leap between describing an aircraft as technologically advanced and buying said aircraft. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone to say that the C Series is not a good aircraft in and of itself. Whether it fits at a particular airline is another matter entirely.

I think that the most that could be said - and even that is complete conjecture - would be that the aircraft being pictured in a good light in an investor call is intended to poll investor interest and BBD's response.

winginit · Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 3):

Delta (any airline for that matter) would buy any aircraft "at the right price." Now whether BBD (or Boeing, or Airbus, or whoever) can actually sell it at that price is another matter.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
DL would buy any aircraft including new 744s for the right price.

Remember a few quarters back when AA said in a town hall setting that they'd like to acquire 77L's to launch MIA-JNB "at the right price?"

People look into statements like this way more than they should. No good aviation executive ever fully shuts a door when it comes to equipment manufacturers.

enilria · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:33 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 10):
If the right price for Delta is 1$ then anything above means they will never buy it. It's a comment which means absolutely nothing.

That's the way I took it. BUT the New York Times already has an article up mirroring this thread.

If you listen to his comments he basically says the engine is amazing. He doesn't really say anything about the airplane. I also question how anybody can buy a plane with the selling point being fuel savings when oil is nearly free at this point. I think I'd get used planes now and think about this plane when fuel is expensive again.

jetwet1 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:37 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 3):
Delta (any airline for that matter) would buy any aircraft "at the right price." Now whether BBD (or Boeing, or Airbus, or whoever) can actually sell it at that price is another matter.

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):

If you listen to his comments he basically says the engine is amazing. He doesn't really say anything about the airplane. I also question how anybody can buy a plane with the selling point being fuel savings when oil is nearly free at this point. I think I'd get used planes now and think about this plane when fuel is expensive again.

While I actually agree with you, at this point in the C-Series life, it needs a major boost, well actually more like a life line, how serious could BBD get with the discounts just to get an airline like DL onboard ? Cost, below cost, way below cost, who knows ?

Amiga500 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:41 pm

I can't see it happening tbh.

Delta don't go for the untried, BBD don't/can't go for the big discounts. Fuel prices mean Delta have little incentive to ditch their habits.

Too many unlikely scenarios needing to add up for this to be a real goer.

UA are infinitely more likely to buy than DL. [But happy to be completely wrong of course.]

enilria · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:41 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 15):
it needs a major boost, well actually more like a life line, how serious could BBD get with the discounts just to get an airline like DL onboard ?

Ask the Quebec taxpayers who will fund the subsidy! BTW, isn't Delta against subsidies?

bkflyguy · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:42 pm

I've always thought that if BBD offered a CS-500 stretch that seats 150 making it a 1-for-1 replacement for the MD 80, it would be a winner for DL.

Btblue · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 11):

IIRC McDonnell Douglas used that strategy to sell the 1st batch of Super 80's to
Bob Crandall and AA. That eventually led to AA operating 360 plus Super 80's
for more than 2 decades

I didn't know that but that's the kind of deal I'm thinking - giving the programme legs into the future - if it works out.

On a side note, are there any cost savings, efficiencies in replacing a 5 abreast aircraft (717, MD83, 88, 90 etc) with one that has a similar five abreast seating arrangement (CSeries)?

Quantos · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
I also question how anybody can buy a plane with the selling point being fuel savings when oil is nearly free at this point. I think I'd get used planes now and think about this plane when fuel is expensive again.

On the other hand, an argument that could be made is that because oil is so low now, airlines have massive profits that they can afford to buy new aircraft with, perhaps with the aim of future-proofing themselves against higher oil prices. Delivery delays being what they are, an order placed right now for a modern aircraft - regardless of the type or company - is probably going to be delivered at best in a couple of years.

Nobody can truly predict when oil is going to go up, but nobody wants to have to wait a couple of years to have your low fuel-burn aircraft delivered while shedding money because of high oil prices.

atlflyer · Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:47 pm

Here is RA's quote:

“We actually think at the right price it’s quite a competitive airplane, particularly given the engine technology,” he said. “We’re taking a very serious look at it.”

alfa164 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:01 pm

Quoting jbs2886 (Reply 5):
RA was also very complimentary of the engines, saying that it is the biggest development since Boeing's composite technology of the 787.

Considering how he has deferred the 787 - practically buried it in the DL books, despite its being the most advanced airliner in the world - this is not a good omen...

deltal1011man · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:06 pm

Quoting chrisp390 (Thread starter):

If the airplane gets to the right price.

Problem is it sounds like BBD is going as low as they can, they simply don't have the money to take a big loss to put some planes with an airline and start getting traction in the industry.

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
If you listen to his comments he basically says the engine is amazing. He doesn't really say anything about the airplane.

Okay? What does it matter?
I guess he could order a bunch of GTFs to, uh.... look at?

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
I also question how anybody can buy a plane with the selling point being fuel savings when oil is nearly free at this point.

That isn't the only selling point. Its a 100-130 seat jets that has pretty big savings (fuel burn and weight) on current gen airplanes.
Same reason why people are buying MAX/NEOs. Fuel being low doesn't mean you come to a complete stop on renewing the fleet. Even with fuel being low it still gives you a chance to expand margins over current gen airplanes.

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
I think I'd get used planes now and think about this plane when fuel is expensive again.

What used airplanes are there in large numbers that can fit the same roll as a C-series?

Oh and let us know if you ever run an airline. I need to know who to invest away from.

Quoting whywhyzee (Reply 1):

That would be a darn good looking aircraft in the DL livery, and Richard Anderson is a smart guy, all of the 717s will need replacing, as well as the A319s. Fuel won't stay cheap forever, and the C-series looks to be the perfect smallest gauge aircraft in their fleet.

The 717s wont need replacing for at least, IIRC, 7-8 years and even when the leases end (and they become Delta owned) it will make little sense to park them because they will still have 5-10 years of life left in them.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
this would be a major shift in strategy - DL and Mr. RA buying an unproven plane without first using others as guinea pigs.

no it wouldn't because they aren't going to order the plane tomorrow.
And it is(or is about to) start flying with LX.

Quoting btblue (Reply 4):
This is positive news for the CSeries programme that could lead to shifting some serious metal now and in the future. Selling the jet at a loss now could lead to faith in the programme later resulting in more sales (not at a loss). I'd love to see the CSeries in Delta colours and I'd love to see the CSeries succeed.

Positive news is an order.
Delta looking at it means nothing.
and if UA picks the 73G over the CS it hurts the program/company much more than DL looking at it.

chrisp390 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Something I think that could make it likely is for Delta this would be a plane that sees 30 years of service possibly. Who knows what price oil will be in 30 years and what better time to buy a fuel efficient plane than when it is out of favor with the rest of the market due to low oil and having trouble selling due to its lack of proven record.

mat66 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:16 pm

Instead of buying some planes Delta should just buy whole Bombardier with profits like talked about in another tread.

I'm pretty sure Canadians wouldn't mind at this point.

777X · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:30 pm

Why would they buy the CSeries when they just ordered the E190?
And of course they would buy it if the price was low enough...

a380787 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:38 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 23):
Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
this would be a major shift in strategy - DL and Mr. RA buying an unproven plane without first using others as guinea pigs.

no it wouldn't because they aren't going to order the plane tomorrow.
And it is(or is about to) start flying with LX.

Flying tomorrow still means unproven. Look how long it took the 787 to work out all its quirks.

The only thing DL has really been one of the first customers in recent times was the 330neo, and even then it's arguable how evolutionary the NEO is. And looking at the CSeries order book, there are more leasing companies than actual airlines. The only 2 globally reputable ones are LX, and KE with their whopping order of 10 frames.

RA saying this is as useful as their empty threat of pulling out MSP-NRT.

deltal1011man · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 22):

Considering how he has deferred the 787 - practically buried it in the DL books, despite its being the most advanced airliner in the world - this is not a good omen...

not sure what you mean?
Delta deferred a plan that it didn't need, and with the slots it had, not a lot of airlines wanted.

Quoting mat66 (Reply 25):
Instead of buying some planes Delta should just buy whole Bombardier with profits like talked about in another tread.
I'm pretty sure Canadians wouldn't mind at this point.

Lets not do that. Airlines have been money pits already, no need to burn even more money.

Quoting 777X (Reply 26):

Why would they buy the CSeries when they just ordered the E190?
And of course they would buy it if the price was low enough...

because they need more 100 seaters?

Having said that, I feel like because they have E90s in the fleet it will help EMB if they put out a RFP for new orders. E2 also has the GTF Richard likes so much......

Btblue · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:41 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 11):

IIRC McDonnell Douglas used that strategy to sell the 1st batch of Super 80's to
Bob Crandall and AA. That eventually led to AA operating 360 plus Super 80's
for more than 2 decades

I didn't know that but that's the kind of deal I'm thinking - giving the programme legs into the future - if it works out.

On a side note, are there any cost savings, efficiencies in replacing a 5 abreast aircraft (717, MD83, 88, 90 etc) with one that has a similar five abreast seating arrangement (CSeries)?

deltal1011man · Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 27):

Flying tomorrow still means unproven. Look how long it took the 787 to work out all its quirks.

The only thing DL has really been one of the first customers in recent times was the 330neo, and even then it's arguable how evolutionary the NEO is. And looking at the CSeries order book, there are more leasing companies than actual airlines. The only 2 globally reputable ones are LX, and KE with their whopping order of 10 frames.

You missed my point. LX (and KE) starting to fly them now gives Delta time to see the data.
Unless they plan on ordering today and taking the airplanes in a month.

JetBuddy · Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:03 pm

Quoting whywhyzee (Reply 1):
all of the 717s will need replacing

Yes, but if history is anything to go by, these might fly for 30 more years in Delta colors.. which I hope they do.

Would be nice to see some C Series join the team though, but anyone would buy anything at the right price. It doesn't mean anything.

diverted · Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:07 pm

Quoting mat66 (Reply 25):
Instead of buying some planes Delta should just buy whole Bombardier with profits like talked about in another tread. I'm pretty sure Canadians wouldn't mind at this point.

Only if we can get DL service (aka cabotage) up here :P

PGNCS · Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:09 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 22):
Considering how he has deferred the 787 - practically buried it in the DL books, despite its being the most advanced airliner in the world - this is not a good omen...

What's your point? It's an airplane DL did not need or want at the time (particularly the early delivery positions) so they deferred them and brought forward orders that were more strategically urgent. That's a great omen for fiscal responsibility and operational reliability, both areas DL has been doing very well in.

Quoting whywhyzee (Reply 1):
That would be a darn good looking aircraft in the DL livery, and Richard Anderson is a smart guy, all of the 717s will need replacing, as well as the A319s.

First, airline executives don't really care how paint looks on one airplane versus another. Second, are you actually claiming that DL is pondering replacements for the 717 fleet at this point, because if you have evidence of that it would be big news indeed, though your point may be valid for A-319's (though I doubt anyone who actually knows would comment here). I cannot fathom that the fleet under most scrutiny for replacement wouldn't be the MD-88.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 21):
Here is RA's quote:

“We actually think at the right price it’s quite a competitive airplane, particularly given the engine technology,” he said. “We’re taking a very serious look at it.”

Thanks for posting the actual quote: that's quite helpful from sorting the wheat from the chaff.

mat66 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:10 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 28):
Lets not do that. Airlines have been money pits already, no need to burn even more money.

You're probably right but it also means missing out of all these beautiful Delta trains leaving Atlanta Central Station.

On a only slightly more serious note. If they order only a half of their existing A319, 717 MD88 fleet Delta would kind of buy the C Series program anyway.

One can dream. I really would like to see the C Series succeeding.

TWA772LR · Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:21 pm

With the current cycles and hours on DLs 717s, when are they expected to be replaced?

Also, they just ordered the E190, a direct competitor, and perfect fit between the CRJ900 and 717, where the CS100 is closer to the 717 in size.

This doesn't make sense.

DL would be better off ordering the CS300 to replace the 73G and A319.

AAlaxfan · Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:27 pm

Delta will definitely buy the C series. We'll just have to wait 15-20 years when they get on the used market.

LAX772LR · Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:33 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
DL and Mr. RA buying an unproven plane without first using others as guinea pigs.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 16):
Delta don't go for the untried

Not true.

Both DL historically and DL with Anderson at the helm have done both of the above, for all new models and for new variants of existing models.

a380787 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:32 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 37):

Both DL historically and DL with Anderson at the helm have done both of the above, for all new models and for new variants of existing models.

Other than 330neo, can you list examples in past 10 years where DL bought brand new barely-proven models with very few other reputable buyers, and actually plan on taking delivery ? (the 350 order book was in excess of 500 when DL jumped in, and there's little belief that the old NW 787 order would actually be delivered in the current form)

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:35 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 8):
That settles it, no C-series for DL. After all we all know RA hates Boeing, and especially the 787, with a fiery passion and that none will ever be in DL's fleet as long as he is still kicking. So any comparison to the 787 is a negative.

RA is very happy with Boeing--why else would he have bought such a huge number of 737-700, -800 and -900ER's?

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 22):

Considering how he has deferred the 787 - practically buried it in the DL books, despite its being the most advanced airliner in the world - this is not a good omen...

The 787 and C series are apples and oranges. They do not serve the same markets so a comparison is a moot point. DL realized early on that the first 787's were overweight and underperforming so they delayed delivery until 2020. In hindsight a very smart move. Now that it is a mature aircraft DL will probably follow through with his statements that he sees a place in the DL fleet for the 787 at some point in the future. The frames that would have gone to NW/DL were dogs--most have been donated to museums or sold at hugely discounted prices just to get rid of them. It is the only aircraft that I can recall the manufacturer giving away free straight off the assembly line.

As I have said before--DL only buys the right airplanes at the right price and they do not apologize for pitting Boeing against Airbus to get the best deal--just good business sense.

a380787 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:37 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 39):
why else would he have bought such a huge number of 737-700

All 10 of them =)

enilria · Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:39 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 23):
Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
I think I'd get used planes now and think about this plane when fuel is expensive again.

What used airplanes are there in large numbers that can fit the same roll as a C-series?

E190? They are already going down that path. Why would they buy E190s and then get the C-Series?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 23):
Oh and let us know if you ever run an airline. I need to know who to invest away from.

Yes, my buy low sell high philosophy is definitely the road to ruin.

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:48 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 40):
All 10 of them =)

Funny....frankly I have never understood why the keep them. WN would pay a pretty price for them but DL bought them as niche aircraft for the Caribbean and some flights to EYW.

flyDTW1992 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 38):
Other than 330neo, can you list examples in past 10 years where DL bought brand new barely-proven models with very few other reputable buyers, and actually plan on taking delivery ? (the 350 order book was in excess of 500 when DL jumped in, and there's little belief that the old NW 787 order would actually be delivered in the current form)

I would say there's solid belief that the 787 order will be delivered. There'd be no reason for it to still be on the books this far down the road otherwise.

As for the A330neo and A350, I fail to see how the 330 is less "proven" than the 350. The neo is a minimal-change variant with engines that are nearly identical to what's already been proven on the 787. The 350 is a brand new airframe with a unique powerplant.

LSZH34 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:54 pm

If the CS100 pays off for LX, more airlines start to seriously(!) consider the CSeries. So Bombardier better gets this right. For the aircraft's sake.

Polot · Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 39):
RA is very happy with Boeing--why else would he have bought such a huge number of 737-700, -800 and -900ER's?

You must have missed the

at the bottom.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 42):
Funny....frankly I have never understood why the keep them. WN would pay a pretty price for them but DL bought them as niche aircraft for the Caribbean and some flights to EYW.

Because DL still needs them for that niche (great takeoff performance but smaller than a 757). The A319s are not properly optioned for that role. Doesn't really cost DL much to keep the 73Gs around, considering the commonality with the 738s/739ERs.

deltadawg · Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:33 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 42):

Funny....frankly I have never understood why the keep them. WN would pay a pretty price for them but DL bought them as niche aircraft for the Caribbean and some flights to EYW

The 737-700's are indeed a niche product for some hot/high/short runway destinations. MEX in the summer, EYW year round and so forth.

DL has had a fairly long relationship with BBD ever since the first CRJ's and the CSeries coming into DL only makes sense seeing that it is almost a one for one replacement of the 717. RA may be looking at the fact that he can force BBD into a very deep discount and get a great aircraft in the making.

Another consideration is that DL could see the CSeries/GTF as a viable revenue stream for their TechOps division so getting in on the ground floor would push them into the leadership role for maintenance of the CSeries.

In the end, I believe we will see a DL order within the next two to three months and the launch customer for the C500!

LAX772LR · Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:44 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 38):
the 350 order book was in excess of 500 when DL jumped in

....you equate just number of orders, of a barely flown and not-in-service airframe, to constitute being "proven?"

Um, why?

JHwk · Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:55 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 23):
The 717s wont need replacing for at least, IIRC, 7-8 years and even when the leases end (and they become Delta owned) it will make little sense to park them because they will still have 5-10 years of life left in them.

Always the possibility that Delta can sell the 717s at a profit, at least a fair number of them.would seem odd with the E90s though...

laca773 · Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:18 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 39):
The 787 and C series are apples and oranges. They do not serve the same markets so a comparison is a moot point. DL realized early on that the first 787's were overweight and underperforming so they delayed delivery until 2020. In hindsight a very smart move. Now that it is a mature aircraft DL will probably follow through with his statements that he sees a place in the DL fleet for the 787 at some point in the future. The frames that would have gone to NW/DL were dogs--most have been donated to museums or sold at hugely discounted prices just to get rid of them. It is the only aircraft that I can recall the manufacturer giving away free straight off the assembly line.

As I have said before--DL only buys the right airplanes at the right price and they do not apologize for pitting Boeing against Airbus to get the best deal--just good business sense.

. There will still be many markets where the 787-8 will be a perfect a/c for DL to utilize on. If DL were to re-start, JFK-BUD/PRG/WAW/LEN

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 42):
Funny....frankly I have never understood why the keep them. WN would pay a pretty price for them but DL bought t

The 73G also makes a lot of sense of Northern South America routes, where the airports are very high, and have short runways as well as the capacity demand for certain markets has worked well for them.
DL also uses the 73G a lot out of MEX which works well for them.

I hope DL and Bombardier come up with a package that works well for the both of them. I think we're more likely to see a CS300 order to begin the replacement of the M80s. The E90s DL is taking is just a small amount, perhaps they will get more.

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