https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-airbus-faces-price-pressure-on-a380-sales-421179/
We know IAG is looking at used A380s , as new A380 has a too high price.
In this article , Flight Int'l reveals IAG is looking at 6 used A380s , of which some of them could be for Iberia , the rest for British Aw.
My first feeling , it's a very small number they are looking for , and if they share this number between IB and BA , that's let IB with say 3 units !
Is it economically viable to have only a very very small number of A380 at IB ?
With 3 , will be only for 1 or 2 routes !
Your thoughs !
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RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting titus95 (Thread starter): My first feeling , it's a very small number they are looking for , and if they share this number between IB and BA , that's let IB with say 3 units ! |
Willie Walsh didn't say that IAG were looking for 6 to be split between BA and Iberia - he said they are looking for 5 or 6 for BA and that the A380 might be suitable for Iberia.
"Walsh said IAG was looking at adding another five or six A380s to the British Airways fleet, but that the jet could also be suitable for Spain-based group airline Iberia."
That suggests that, should they decide to obtain A380s for Iberia, those frames will be in addition to the extra 5 or 6 for BA.
Full story:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/iag-says-interested-second-hand-114051188.html
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
I see no reason why IB couldn't operate a small fleet if there were routes that suited it, post A340 are there any routes in the IB network that even with the advances of 787 and 350 it would still be desirable to have 4 engines?
Let's face it, IB or for that matter EI could operate a small fleet of it had the need, with pilots training done in the BA facilities, and all scheduled MX again done at BA Eng. with just a small pool of IB or EI engineers trained up/certified for in line MX as its needed
We already see the IAG NB Fleets being homogenised so that with just simple work (relatively) they can be transferred between group airlines...
Let's face it, IB or for that matter EI could operate a small fleet of it had the need, with pilots training done in the BA facilities, and all scheduled MX again done at BA Eng. with just a small pool of IB or EI engineers trained up/certified for in line MX as its needed
We already see the IAG NB Fleets being homogenised so that with just simple work (relatively) they can be transferred between group airlines...
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
We have discussed many times about adding the A380 to Iberia and IMO there's no need right now, very few routes could get the plane year round and with no space issue in MAD adding more flight will be better than bigger planes.
IB has recover very nicely after some problems, and part of that was the reduced cost structure, bringing now few A380 won't make sense, the A330 in IB are perfect for most routes and for busier routes they can always use the A346.
Even Tokyo will go on A332, world longest for the type.
On the other hand IAG is trying to get more A380 and more B77W, but I think all of them will go to BA.
IB has recover very nicely after some problems, and part of that was the reduced cost structure, bringing now few A380 won't make sense, the A330 in IB are perfect for most routes and for busier routes they can always use the A346.
Even Tokyo will go on A332, world longest for the type.
On the other hand IAG is trying to get more A380 and more B77W, but I think all of them will go to BA.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting mwhcvt (Reply 2): Let's face it, IB or for that matter EI could operate a small fleet of it had the need, with pilots training done in the BA facilities, and all scheduled MX again done at BA Eng. with just a small pool of IB or EI engineers trained up/certified for in line MX as its needed |
Exactly, we shouldn't think of it as BA and IB, but as one entity which shares facilities and expertise, and just happens to be based in LON and MAD.
A small fleet of any type should be fine for either airline under the umbrella of IAG.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
Buenos Aires and Mexico City would be candidates for Iberia A380's if IAG were to share the A380 bounty with IB. One issue though is any Iberia A380 seat map would have close to 600 seats with a 60 J class cabin( less then BA 97 CW) and a Y+ of say 40 and no First Class eating lots of prime airplane real estate, could IB fill up such a beast consistently ?
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5): Buenos Aires and Mexico City would be candidates for Iberia A380's if IAG were to share the A380 bounty with IB. One issue though is any Iberia A380 seat map would have close to 600 seats with a 60 J class cabin( less then BA 97 CW) and a Y+ of say 40 and no First Class eating lots of prime airplane real estate, could IB fill up such a beast consistently |
You make two very good points jfk777.
I personally think it is not very likely that IB will end up operating A380s. Your argument re: the number of seats makes me think that IB will not have planes larger than A346s/A35Js in the short and medium term. If IB were planning to launch a proper Premium Economy class, then we would be talking about a bit less than the close to 600 seats that you estimate, but even in that scenario the A380 seems awkwardly big and therefore out of place in the IB fleet.
As for the potential destinations, I dunno if GRU, MIA and/or BOG could also sustain A380 service from MAD profitably, even if only seasonally. EZE and MEX do seem like good candidates. In the case of MEX, however, it would be highly inconvenient for all parties involved if IB decided to bring such a large aircraft. As AF has discovered, the taxiways are not wide enough, so going from gate to runway takes like 25 minutes due to the need for a circuitous route. Add to that the future LH A380 service and whatever additional service/upgauging would happen in the next few years in afternoon/evening arrivals, and you end up having a nightmare of lines of hours for arriving passengers to clear immigration and customs.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
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RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting EddieDude (Reply 6): In the case of MEX, however, it would be highly inconvenient for all parties involved if IB decided to bring such a large aircraft. As AF has discovered, the taxiways are not wide enough, so going from gate to runway takes like 25 minutes due to the need for a circuitous route. Add to that the future LH A380 service and whatever additional service/upgauging would happen in the next few years in afternoon/evening arrivals, and you end up having a nightmare of lines of hours for arriving passengers to clear immigration and customs. |
I understand the new MEX will open in 2020, I personally doubt IB would receive A388s prior to then, although I can see a fleet of 6-10 in the future.
Dan
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 7): I understand the new MEX will open in 2020 |
Yes, fingers crossed.
Then again, if the new MEX will have who knows how many runways and the capacity to take 50 million passengers upon opening and up to 120 million passengers once it is fully built, maybe IB would be better off with double daily (and maybe more during summer) frequency in order to offer a broader choice of schedules to its customers.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting EddieDude (Reply 6): s for the potential destinations, I dunno if GRU, MIA and/or BOG could also sustain A380 service from MAD profitably, even if only seasonally. EZE and MEX do seem like good candidates. In the case of MEX, however, it would be highly inconvenient for all parties involved if IB decided to bring such a large aircraft. As AF has discovered, the taxiways are not wide enough, so going from gate to runway takes like 25 minutes due to the need for a circuitous route. Add to that the future LH A380 service and whatever additional service/upgauging would happen in the next few years in afternoon/evening arrivals, and you end up having a nightmare of lines of hours for arriving passengers to clear immigration and customs. |
Another A380 challenge in Latin America is the infrastructure one, while many airports have new and expanded terminals they are at the same airports. The biggest challenge to A380 operations in that part of the world is GRU, this is the one airport where many A380 airlines would love to fly it.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting EddieDude (Reply 6): I dunno if GRU, MIA and/or BOG could also sustain A380 service from MAD profitably, even if only seasonally. |
I honestly don't think MIA can handle any more A380s at the moment...we've already seen how any delay in the early afternoon LH flight can throw the evening AF flight way off schedule due to the shared gate. There is also heavy competition on the route between AA, IB, and UX.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
Any airline that has operated the 747 in a profitable mode could do exactly the same with the A380.
No you don't need a massive fleet of them, some airlines did just fine with a single 747 in the fleet some had 2. If and its a big IF Iberia ever got a couple of A380's or even Aer Lingus then one would hope that a conglomerate company could pool resources and say have all the A 380's attended to at the one base, lets say BA?
In this day and age I think established back slapping high earners running airlines might have a clue what they are doing, if they see a case for the A 380 then there probably is one, and it would be good to see another livery on an A380 even Iberia's excuse for a livery.
No you don't need a massive fleet of them, some airlines did just fine with a single 747 in the fleet some had 2. If and its a big IF Iberia ever got a couple of A380's or even Aer Lingus then one would hope that a conglomerate company could pool resources and say have all the A 380's attended to at the one base, lets say BA?
In this day and age I think established back slapping high earners running airlines might have a clue what they are doing, if they see a case for the A 380 then there probably is one, and it would be good to see another livery on an A380 even Iberia's excuse for a livery.
I so want to fly on SCAT one day!
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
JFK, MIA, MEX, GRU, EZE or SCL could be potential destinations IMO.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting titus95 (Thread starter): Is it economically viable to have only a very very small number of A380 at IB ? |
No.
But if you ask a different question: is it economically viable for IAG to operate 18-20 A380's, of which 3 or 4 are operated under IB with shared MX, training, and common cabin equipment? The answer is yes, IMO.
To me the main issue is that IB does not have 1st class, nor does its route network support it. IB A380's in a BA configuration would be far too premium.
IB A380's in an own configuration (J and let's say a new Y+, plus Y) would lose configuration commonality with BA and would end up in the 600ish seat range, and then the question is if you are adding too much capacity...
OTOH, it would be interesting to introduce the 600-seat A380 to Europe. IMO, current EU A380 operators are far too premium focused, and are missing out on opportunities if they configured some of their fleet for 600 seats.
| Quoting N14AZ (Reply 13): An A380 in IB's old livery would be awesome... |
But I don't even want to think of the current one... although the best IB classic livery remains the 747 IMO.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting smw757 (Reply 10): There is also heavy competition on the route between AA, IB, and UX. |
Thanks to the AA/BA/IB/AY ATI JV, AA & IB are not competitors on MAD-MIA. The MAD-MIA schedule has AA & IB departing relativity closely, so were IB to operate an A380 it could replace AA's flight too. Similar situation for MAD-JFK.
| Quoting r2rho (Reply 14): To me the main issue is that IB does not have 1st class, nor does its route network support it. IB A380's in a BA configuration would be far too premium. IB A380's in an own configuration (J and let's say a new Y+, plus Y) would lose configuration commonality with BA and would end up in the 600ish seat range, and then the question is if you are adding too much capacity... |
With IAG moving towards fleet commonality on future aircraft deliveries, they claim it will be easier for them to move aircraft between operating entities. Among other features, the ability to easily reconfigure seating was mentioned. So perhaps IAG would use some future A380s for IB when the traffic at BA is at a seasonal low?
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9): The biggest challenge to A380 operations in that part of the world is GRU, this is the one airport where many A380 airlines would love to fly it. |
Probably not right now as the Brazilian economy has tanked. At some point Brazil's economy will be dynamic and steady again, and that will spur again business travel. Eventually Brazilians will also recover purchasing power and they will be eager to travel abroad a lot again. But I get your point, Sao Paulo and its metro area is an economic/industrial/financial powerhouse and A380s would be useful for the likes of AF, LH, BA.
| Quoting smw757 (Reply 10): I honestly don't think MIA can handle any more A380s at the moment...we've already seen how any delay in the early afternoon LH flight can throw the evening AF flight way off schedule due to the shared gate. There is also heavy competition on the route between AA, IB, and UX. |
I was not talking about infrastructure but about passenger demand. Plus, as it has already been explained, AA and IB are not competing because they have antitrust immunity, so any increase in revenue for IB in the North America-Europe market is good for IB and AA and viceversa.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
Here are clickable links to the articles linked by the TO and in Reply 1.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ice-pressure-on-a380-sales-421179/
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/iag...erested-second-hand-114051188.html
Of course we cannot be certain as to the future. But currently BA does not appear to have enough engineering capacity to maintain all of its own aircraft.
Currently A380 G-XLEE is undergoing a B Check at HAECO at SIN. It was exchanged there with 'LD just a couple of days back.
A319 G-DBCH has been in the IB MAD maintenance facility since 23 January. A320s have also recently undergone maintenance there.
Finally all BA CityFlyer's E-Jets currently go to Warsaw where E-190 G-LCYK has been undergoing maintenance since 20 January. However I seem to remember reading that BA had signed a contract with KL for the maintenance of these aircraft.
As far as flight crew training is concerned, since the A380 entered service BA have carried out most of this training at DUR thereby gainfully employing the A380 that would otherwise spend much of a whole day parked at JNB. So that could be where IB crews are trained if they get a small fleet of the type.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ice-pressure-on-a380-sales-421179/
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/iag...erested-second-hand-114051188.html
| Quoting mwhcvt (Reply 2): with pilots training done in the BA facilities, and all scheduled MX again done at BA Eng |
Of course we cannot be certain as to the future. But currently BA does not appear to have enough engineering capacity to maintain all of its own aircraft.
Currently A380 G-XLEE is undergoing a B Check at HAECO at SIN. It was exchanged there with 'LD just a couple of days back.
A319 G-DBCH has been in the IB MAD maintenance facility since 23 January. A320s have also recently undergone maintenance there.
Finally all BA CityFlyer's E-Jets currently go to Warsaw where E-190 G-LCYK has been undergoing maintenance since 20 January. However I seem to remember reading that BA had signed a contract with KL for the maintenance of these aircraft.
As far as flight crew training is concerned, since the A380 entered service BA have carried out most of this training at DUR thereby gainfully employing the A380 that would otherwise spend much of a whole day parked at JNB. So that could be where IB crews are trained if they get a small fleet of the type.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
IB could have a small fleet of A380 since there is fleet efficiency within IAG to support a large A380 fleet. But you still have the issue of too many seats and airports with poor taxiway layouts in Latin America. Its not a good freight hauler like 777's.
The airports BA flies A380 to are more modern then the ones IB would fly an A380 too and very likely have A380 operations by the hub airline or other A380 operators already. An A380 at Iberia just has too many challenges to surmount.
The airports BA flies A380 to are more modern then the ones IB would fly an A380 too and very likely have A380 operations by the hub airline or other A380 operators already. An A380 at Iberia just has too many challenges to surmount.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting VV701 (Reply 18): |
That is interesting, I didn't know that BA was currently sending the A388 out to SIN for maintence, I wonder can the A388 be accommodated at Cardiff or would there have to be changes there to fit it into the hanger?
Ultimately I wonder if the group might look a creating a single large maintence base for the A32X at some point as the group will have one of the biggest fleets going that could see a lot of work
Maybe in the form of IAG Engineering in a similar vain as LH Tech
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19): IB could have a small fleet of A380 since there is fleet efficiency within IAG to support a large A380 fleet |
Can one IAG operator lease plane with aircrew to another or are there operating licence issues? Gets over the issue of eg IB having to maintain a small number of pilots for a limited number of planes.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9): Another A380 challenge in Latin America is the infrastructure one, while many airports have new and expanded terminals they are at the same airports. The biggest challenge to A380 operations in that part of the world is GRU, this is the one airport where many A380 airlines would love to fly it. |
but GRU was cleared yet for A380 operatioms, EK operated 1 demonstration flight last month yet
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting trex8 (Reply 21): Can one IAG operator lease plane with aircrew to another or are there operating licence issues? Gets over the issue of eg IB having to maintain a small number of pilots for a limited number of planes. |
BA pilots operating Iberia A380 flights is technically feasible but is likely to cause a lot of unrest amongst Iberia pilots and reopen old wounds.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 23): BA pilots operating Iberia A380 flights is technically feasible but is likely to cause a lot of unrest amongst Iberia pilots and reopen old wounds |
IB pilots would have an easy time transitioning to the A380 from other Airbus planes since Airbus is designed to be that way.
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting mwhcvt (Reply 20): I wonder can the A388 be accommodated at Cardiff or would there have to be changes there to fit it into the hanger? |
BA's first 380, G-XLEA, arrived at LHR on delivery on 4 July 2013.
On 29 July 2013 it visited BA's wide-body maintenance base at CWL for what were described as 'maintenance ground handling trials / training' that lasted around five hours . This suggests that it is in the plan to carry out maintenance on the 380 at CWL. But I believe that so far no further BA 380 flights to CWL have occurred.
After this visit to CWL 'EA was ferried to STN for what were described as ' diversion ground handling trials / training'. Similar 'diversion' trials / training were carried out at SNN and then LGW on the following day.
While at SNN a photo opportunity of the Airbus whale (380) and Airbus minnow (318) that was operating LCY-SNN-JFK was arranged:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanair/9401145901/in/photostream/
RE: Used A380s For Iberia?
| Quoting VV701 (Reply 25): |
Well that's a wonderfully informative post, thank you...I'm going to guess that the main reason then that no A380 has visited CWL again is one of capacity, what with still having a sizeable fleet of 747 that are going through maintenance/overhaul and refurbishment, that and the 777 refurbishment program it's likely there's not exactly a lot of spare capacity
That is a cool photo op for sure, one that'll not be repeated unless something gone seriously wrong or of course the A380 gets put on the JFK rout but so far there's been no sign of that but who knows what the future will bring
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
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