747400sp
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Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:41 am

Hello


This may sound like a crazy question, but could the 787 put the 777 out of business, like the 777 did to the 747? Remember, 777 was built as a secondary plane for Boeing behind the 747. As a matter of fact, it was built to compete against Mc Donnell Douglas MD11, now it's about to be Boeing's flagship. If you look at the 787, it is more passenger friendly ( if the layout is right ), it's faster, and more fuel efficient, so could the 787, knock the 777 out business, like the 777 did to the 747?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:28 pm

It's doing a bad job of it so far.   
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jfk777
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:30 pm

The 787 would have to evolve into a much bigger plane, a 787-9 with a typical 50 J class cabin seat about 250 passengers. A 787-11 or -12 would have to seat 400 people, like the 777-9, and fly 8,500 miles like the -9. This would require a bigger wing and new bigger engines at a minimum. It could also require an additional landing gear or modification into a 777 type 6 wheel landing gear. The plane's height might have to be adjusted for a larger engine on the wing for ground clearance.

First things first, the 787-10 needs to fly as far as a 787-9 before he 787 becomes the next 777.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
First things first, the 787-10 needs to fly as far as a 787-9 before he 787 becomes the next 777.

Agreed. I also think that is why we may not see a 10ER sooner rather than later.

Ruscoe
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:35 pm

I rather think that the B787 and the B777X complement and support each other, jfk777. Three planned versions of each appear neatly to 'bracket' the two-version Airbus A350 - one range smaller, one larger, both capable of extreme range if required.

I don't see only two models of the A350, fitting midway between the two, being an adequate counter. I'm looking forward with some confidence to the two Boeing models dominating passenger traffic worldwide for a considerable time........

[Edited 2016-01-29 05:42:10]
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:39 pm

I do not really understand Boeings policy of considerable product overlapping. They develop the 777 into a 747 competitor, later even into the most effective 747 killer, and then they make the 787, practically a 777-200 killer from the start.
On the other hand there is the huge gap between the 737 and the 787 (I wouldnt count the 767 anymore, as its dead as a pax plane).
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:45 pm

Quoting na (Reply 5):
later even into the most effective 747 killer

My guess is that Boeing have pretty well 'written off' the B747, na, except possibly as a 'niche' freighter ...........
 
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VS4ever
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:55 pm

Quoting na (Reply 5):
On the other hand there is the huge gap between the 737 and the 787 (I wouldnt count the 767 anymore, as its dead as a pax plane).

I think most agree there is a big gap here, because the 757 and 767 are pretty much dead (well the 757 already is), and that's why there is a lot of talk on here about whether Boeing should in fact build a 757 replacement. The 321LR might do an admirable job, but it's still not a direct replacement in the true sense of the word as it won't have the capacity of a 752 or 753.
However you have to remember in designing planes, the general feeling is the air travel is going to expand year over year, decade over decade, so aircraft need to move bigger to allow for that. Some are doing this by shoehorning more seats in their existing fleet, (B6 for example right now), and some are looking to the future.
If you look at the way the 787 and 777 are slotted, sure they overlap, but they are trending towards larger capacities and in many cases they will replace existing models. The 789 really works as a 772 killer, because it's newer more efficient and Boeing don't really need that model anymore, they are looking at the 77X to replace the 744 and 748 fleets, so you kill off the lower levels of the higher model and let that grow further, and bring the lower model up to the level. In this transition period, there will absolutely be overlap, but it's a long term view that is being taken.
Eventually you will see 788/789 at the 250 seat level with a 7810 a bit more than that, then the 778/9/10 with numbers pushing up towards the 400 mark. That then gives you the fleet coverage needed to compete against the offerings of the 330, 350 and 380 from Airbus.

All this said, I still think there is a market for something in between the 739 and the 788, just look at the charter market in Europe and how many 757's and 767's ply those routes, along with the long discussed TATL routes. But Boeing and Airbus are smarter than me in this stuff, so I will let their experts along with the airlines decide. They clearly haven't seen a need for it yet (except for the aforementioned 321LR), but who knows what the future holds.

I don't think the 787 is a 777 killer in the true sense of the word, but it will kill off the lower capacity variants over time.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:58 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 1):
It's doing a bad job of it so far.

Is it? The 777 classic backlog is drying up pretty quickly and the 777X isn't selling extremely well outside of the ME3.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
The 787 would have to evolve into a much bigger plane

The 789 is already the size of the 772 and being smaller didn't prevent the 777 from killing the 747.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:02 pm

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 9):
The 777 classic backlog is drying up pretty quickly

But what did the orderbooks of the 200ER look like after the 77W hit the market? I think there were very few 772ER orders after that... Or I am getting old and have forgotten LOL!
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:15 pm

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 9):
The 789 is already the size of the 772 and being smaller didn't prevent the 777 from killing the 747.

Only if you compare the 9 abreast 787 cattle configuration with 9 abreast 777s - otherwise the 789 is smaller. But yes, the 789 and 7810 will kill the 772 - and leave the ULR niche to the 778 and the big twin role to the 779.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 9):
The 789 is already the size of the 772 and being smaller didn't prevent the 777 from killing the 747.

Well said! Add to it that Airbus is offering the sleeker A3510 to catch a big chunk of the 77W/77X marketshare.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:31 pm

We are in a transition period now. Boeing is going from 3 widebody passenger offerings to 2, but now in the interim we currently have 4 in production. In the future the 787 and 777x will satisfy market needs well. The 787 is on the smaller and and 777x is larger than the 777-200/300 in order to push it up market and lower CASM. The 787-9 pretty much stopped any chance for any more 777-200ER/LR orders. That's what the market wanted. The airlines wanted something bigger than just the 767.

Quoting na (Reply 5):
I do not really understand Boeings policy of considerable product overlapping. They develop the 777 into a 747 competitor, later even into the most effective 747 killer, and then they make the 787, practically a 777-200 killer from the start.
On the other hand there is the huge gap between the 737 and the 787 (I wouldnt count the 767 anymore, as its dead as a pax plane).

The 747-8 was an unfortunate story. I think it was thought that it would be quite a bit more efficient than the 77W when launched, but it didn't turn out to have much lower CASM which prevented its sales.

Starting in 2020, I think Boeing has a good product line up. There is a big gap between the narrowbody and widebody markets from both manufacturers. Airbus has the advantage among larger narrowbodies with the A321. Boeing has the advantage in the smaller widebodies with the 787 vs A330 neo. I think the 737 to 787 to 777x is a good lineup that effectively covers the market without overlap. I think the A320, A330neo, A350, A380 is also a good lineup, but the A330 and A350 are too close in size and take orders away from each other.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:49 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 4):
Three planned versions of each appear neatly to 'bracket' the two-version Airbus A350 - one range smaller, one larger, both capable of extreme range if required.

Let me rephrase that for you: "Three (partly planned) versions of Airbus wide body aircraft appear neatly to 'bracket' from multiple sides the two wide bodies Boeing will end up offering".  
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:52 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 4):

Hi to the person who ate humble pie on the A380. Oops! so this time, a different launch on his/her laughable rant on the A350 with the usual fiction and wrong information.

I rather think that the B787 and the B777X complement and support each other plus the 747-8. This means Boeing cover 220 to 450 seats really well. Airbus have a similar approach appear wirh the three version Airbus A350, A330 and A380. The A380 and A350 bracket the 777X and 747 space and this is where Boeing will make its money by filling this gap that is demand from ME3. The 787-10 is unique and can do short haul missions efficiently that can only be matched by the A330-900 with low acquisition costs and tighter seating.

I don't see only three models of the A350, fitting around and between the two, being an adequate counter hence Airbus has the A330 and A380. I'm looking forward with some confidence to the Airbus and Boeing models dominating passenger traffic worldwide for a considerable time........I think???????

Until Russia joins the party.

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 6):

  

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 9):

The A330 is fortunate with large orders from China and Iran. The 77W is different in that it's a versatile long haul airplane. Production has slowed to 7 per month but I'm confident Boeing will fill the slots. No other twin is available at this moment that can match its capacity and the acquisition cost will be very low.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:01 pm

The A350 and 787 limit the future 777 sales. But for the 777X, there is a market. How big?

It will depend on A380 development ironically...

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 3):
Agreed. I also think that is why we may not see a 10ER sooner rather than later.

The landing gear is an issue as well as wing loading. A 787-10ER will take a wing root stretch to accommodate both.

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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:09 pm

The 777X program will ensure 777 will be flying will into the 2030s perhaps 2040s. I don't know anything of the 787 replacing the 777...

Quoting VS4ever (Reply 8):
because the 757 and 767 are pretty much dead (well the 757 already is),

That's news to me though I don't keep updated of 757 retirements specifically AA UA and DL.
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olle
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:16 pm

A.net has different rules;

1. A composite frame will always kill a non composite frame
2. A composite frame can be stretched as long as ever needed
3. no frame can compete with the 777!
4. All airliners needs exactly the capacity of the market currently proposed 777 (now 779)

1. I strongly beleive in 1. and must say I am suprised of how the A333 keeps selling compared to the A787 that I had a very pleasent experience with.

2. The methods of building both 787 and 350 seems to support it better then earlier examples like the A346. This should work in disadvatage against the older generation NG like A330 and B777. Again B779 seems to be heavily rebuild with new wing etc. Question is that I believe that Airbus currently talks a lot about A350-1000 and a A350-1100. They might be better then we at A.net consider.

3. I do believe that the A350 is better competition then A.net consider against the A777. Still suprised the comperation A330 B787. A330 should be dead!!!!!!  

4. Is the B779 at sweat spot or is it a frame that a few airliners will purchases a few of like the A380?
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:19 pm

Quoting olle (Reply 18):
A787

A typo I presume? 
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:46 pm

With a full load of passengers, will the 7778x have a range of 8,700 nm?
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:57 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 19):
Quoting olle (Reply 18):
A787

A typo I presume?

It should have been B787 and B777 of course!

 

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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:06 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
This may sound like a crazy question, but could the 787 put the 777 out of business, like the 777 did to the 747?

Um, no.

The 787 and 777 are two entirely different planes for two entirely different set of missions. Now that the current 777 will be replaced by the 777X, that will definitely be the case.

The 777-9 is the plane that puts the 747 out, however, as it perfectly replaces it, nearly on a 1:1 level, but with two less engines!

In the case of older 777s, the 787-9, 777X and A350 are probably what replaces them, long term.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:11 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 22):

The 777-9 is the plane that puts the 747 out, however, as it perfectly replaces it, nearly on a 1:1 level, but with two less engines!

Don't even need to wait that long. For most airlines, the current 77W already put most 744 out of its misery. Only a handful like BA and UA are still clinging onto their 747s.

The 789 and 359 are the ones replacing 77E gradually, but there's no rush at this moment while oil stays low.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:26 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 1):
It's doing a bad job of it so far.   

Has it? Boeing has not delivered any 777-200ERs since the 787-9 entered production and the two planes have almost identical cabin lengths (if not available cabin area).

Of course, the A350-900 and A330-300 have helped retire the 777-200ER from the new-build market, but I would not underestimate the 787-9's role, as well.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:30 pm

My impression was that it was about to go the other way, with the redesigned 777X crowding the 787-10 out of the market for larger jets. The 787 is more likely to endanger the legacy 767s, given the similarities in size and mission.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:32 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 4):
I rather think that the B787 and the B777X complement and support each other, jfk777. Three planned versions of each appear neatly to 'bracket' the two-version Airbus A350 - one range smaller, one larger, both capable of extreme range if required.

And you ignore the A330. Again.   
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:34 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 25):
My impression was that it was about to go the other way, with the redesigned 777X crowding the 787-10 out of the market for larger jets.

The 777-8 and 787-10 address very different segments of the market. Of those segments, the one the 787-10 addresses is far, far larger.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:01 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 17):
That's news to me though I don't keep updated of 757 retirements specifically AA UA and DL.

I meant from the angle of new sales, not existing users. There are plenty of 757's left around all over the place, even though they are slowly diminishing as they reach end of life.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:14 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):

Nope.

Next question.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:24 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Remember, 777 was built as a secondary plane for Boeing behind the 747.

Not sure what that means.

Quoting na (Reply 5):
They develop the 777 into a 747 competitor, later even into the most effective 747 killer, and then they make the 787, practically a 777-200 killer from the start.

The 772/77E was dead a while ago. If not by the 77W, then the A333, and if not that then the A359 launch. Keeping the 787 smaller than the 77E was not really an option in my opinion. Customers spoke.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 25):
My impression was that it was about to go the other way, with the redesigned 777X crowding the 787-10 out of the market for larger jets. The 787 is more likely to endanger the legacy 767s, given the similarities in size and mission.

I expect that virtually zero airlines will be deciding between the 778 and the 78X in the same RFP. Entirely different route profiles.

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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:28 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 30):

I expect that virtually zero airlines will be deciding between the 778 and the 78X in the same RFP. Entirely different route profiles.

FWIW, back in the mid-2000s, Air Canada made a simultaneous order for 77L, 77W, and 787. Rare, but it has happened.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:30 pm

Quoting na (Reply 5):
I do not really understand Boeings policy of considerable product overlapping. They develop the 777 into a 747 competitor, later even into the most effective 747 killer, and then they make the 787, practically a 777-200 killer from the start.

They also developed 737/757 to kill 727. Oh, and 707 to make 377 entirely obsolete  ...
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:48 pm

Quoting na (Reply 5):
I do not really understand Boeings policy of considerable product overlapping. They develop the 777 into a 747 competitor, later even into the most effective 747 killer, and then they make the 787, practically a 777-200 killer from the start.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):

Has it? Boeing has not delivered any 777-200ERs since the 787-9 entered production and the two planes have almost identical cabin lengths (if not available cabin area).

Of course, the A350-900 and A330-300 have helped retire the 777-200ER from the new-build market, but I would not underestimate the 787-9's role, as well.

I'm with those that say the 77W (as well as the A330) did more to kill the 77E than the 789 did. with comparable operating economics, similar performance, and way more revenue potential, the 77W just makes sense. As the A330's performance increased, the 77E's higher operating costs were harder to justify since the A330 could do more of its missions. Keep in mind most 77E deliveries stopped before 10Y became commonplace on the 777, so in reality, the 77E can carry a couple dozen more passengers.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:55 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 33):

I'm with those that say the 77W (as well as the A330) did more to kill the 77E than the 789 did. with comparable operating economics, similar performance, and way more revenue potential, the 77W just makes sense. As the A330's performance increased, the 77E's higher operating costs were harder to justify since the A330 could do more of its missions. Keep in mind most 77E deliveries stopped before 10Y became commonplace on the 777, so in reality, the 77E can carry a couple dozen more passengers.

a 10 seat per row 777-200ER can probably fly closer to 20 more pax then at 9 seat per row.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting VS4ever (Reply 8):
I think most agree there is a big gap here, because the 757 and 767 are pretty much dead (well the 757 already is), and that's why there is a lot of talk on here about whether Boeing should in fact build a 757 replacement.

I believe there's a lot of talk about that replacement because people fear that it won't happen until 2035, and then it will be the 737OMG.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:01 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 34):
a 10 seat per row 777-200ER can probably fly closer to 20 more pax then at 9 seat per row.

Obviously it would depend on how many rows of E the plane had. DL's have at least 24 rows that could add an extra seat. Also I know in another discussion of the 777 it was mentioned that the wider cabin means you might be able to fit an extra row of J seats in a 1-2-1 configuration by angling them more towards the middle.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:42 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
Boeing has not delivered any 777-200ERs since the 787-9 entered production and the two planes have almost identical cabin lengths (if not available cabin area).

Boeing has effectively removed the 772ER from its offerings when the 77L came out. As I understand it, DL wanted a few more frames and Boeing quoted such an outrageous price that it was cheaper to buy the 77L, which they did.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:46 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 37):
Boeing has effectively removed the 772ER from its offerings when the 77L came out. As I understand it, DL wanted a few more frames and Boeing quoted such an outrageous price that it was cheaper to buy the 77L, which they did.

Looking at the 777-200LR's mission profile within Delta, it was probably the better airframe regardless of price. That being said, I've heard that thanks to GE's pricing, Average Sales Prices of the 777-200LR were within a few percent of the 777-200ER. widebodyphotog also published data from flight planning software showing that on stage lengths beyond 2000nm, the improvements in TFSC, propulsive efficiency and airframe lift/drag favored the 777-200LR by up to 3% in terms of fuel burn per unit of payload.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:00 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 23):
For most airlines, the current 77W already put most 744 out of its misery.

Most? Seems A350 has done a "whale" of a job pushing out 744 either partially or fully at SQ, BA, UA, CX, JL, AF/KL, etc.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:08 am

It does seem like Boeing has some degree of planned obsolescence with its airframe types, and is now dependent on two or three types of airliner.

707s get replaced by 757s.
757s and 727s get replaced by 737s

747s get replaced by 777s.
767s and 777-200s get replaced by 787s.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:31 am

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 40):

Given the range requirements and crossing of oceans at the time, the 707 was superseded by the 747.
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:40 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 41):
Given the range requirements and crossing of oceans at the time, the 707 was superseded by the 747.

I was thinking more on the lines of narrow bodies replacing narrow bodies/wide bodies replacing wide bodies.
 
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RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:27 am

Quoting na (Reply 5):
and then they make the 787, practically a 777-200 killer from the start.

Timing. The 772 first flew 20yrs before the 789 was in service.


Quoting SEPilot (Reply 37):
As I understand it, DL wanted a few more frames and Boeing quoted such an outrageous price that it was cheaper to buy the 77L, which they did.

Boeing was still handling selling 77Es years after the 77L was available. DL also had aspirations of Africa and India nonstop, hence their (bump of he 77Es to 656K lbs) and acquisition of the 77L.
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chinmay17shetye
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Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:24 pm

RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:44 am

787 with its problems can't beat the 777 when airlines like Emirates, Singapore Airlines exist.
 
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7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:43 pm

Quoting chinmay17shetye (Reply 44):
787 with its problems can't beat the 777 when airlines like Emirates, Singapore Airlines exist.

Then why is SQ is buying B787's (and A350's) to replace their 772's (and A330's)? I guess you're talking about 77W's?
 
tjh8402
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 am

RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
Most? Seems A350 has done a "whale" of a job pushing out 744 either partially or fully at SQ, BA, UA, CX, JL, AF/KL, etc.

SQ, CX, JL, and AF retired most, if not all of their 744s before their A350 deliveries started, and all now have the 77W. has KL announced their A350 plans? I thought the 789 and 78X were more likely 744 replacements. BA looks to be a mixed replacement of A350, 787, and A380. UA and DL may be the only ones looking at a pretty direct 744 to A35K replacement.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2990
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
FWIW, back in the mid-2000s, Air Canada made a simultaneous order for 77L, 77W, and 787. Rare, but it has happened.

Reportedly AC was so upset at the performance of its A340/A333s it decided to place an order for both 777 and the 787. Also the 767s needed to be replaced.

It has since given the A333 a "stay of execution"
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
jfk777
Posts: 7122
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:23 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 47):
Reportedly AC was so upset at the performance of its A340/A333s it decided to place an order for both 777 and the 787. Also the 767s needed to be replaced.

It has since given the A333 a "stay of execution"

AC clearly likes the A330 for the European flights and they are now paid for. The A340 has always been the troubled airplane in the A330/340 pair, it a gas guzzler period. Some extreme distance flights AC wanted were challenging to the A340 or its economics were awful, AC had A340-300 /500. Enter the 777 and AC is so happy, they even place a follow up order for 777 the shame of it is they put 450 passengers in these planes its like a charter.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6943
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:07 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 13):
but the A330 and A350 are too close in size and take orders away from each other.

I don't agree with this.

The A330-200/800 is almost exactly the same size as the 787-8
The A330-300/900 is almost exactly the same size as the 787-9
The A350-900 is almost exactly the same size as a 787-10 9maybe a fraction smaller)
The A350-1000 is almost exactly the same size as a 777-300ER

The product line-ups are remarkably similar in spacing.

The Airbus line-up has the added differentiation that the A350-900 considerably outranges the A330-900 as well as being bigger.

In the Boeing line-up, the converse is true, with an airline having to trade range for capacity between the 787-9 and 787-10.

The A330-900 has indeed taken away orders from the A350-900 last year.
But IMO that's as much to do with "right-sizing" (i.e. airlines that actually wanted a smaller plane than the 350-900, like the original A330 sized A350) and availability, rather than a conflict between the types
So yes, I think we've seen some poaching in the last 12 months. I think it will stop.
I suspect the 350 will have a good year this year
(The A330 might too, of course)

Rgds
 
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Stitch
Posts: 26503
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Could The 787 Put The 777 Out Of Business?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 49):
In the Boeing line-up, the converse is true, with an airline having to trade range for capacity between the 787-9 and 787-10.

Well there is the 787-10 and 777-8, with the latter being around 5% larger in terms of cabin floor area and with significantly more range.

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