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kgaiflyer
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Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:11 pm

I've been flying on 739s since pmCO got their first 739A. But twice in the past month (once at IAD and once at ORD) the pilots have had to control passenger's disembarking at the jetbridge. Two weeks ago at Dulles we were told the tail of the plane was heavy with cargo, and it would have to be unloaded before anyone left their seat to disembark -- lest the nose wheel would leave the ground. Yesterday at O"Hare, we were told the same thing -- but the pilot advised the FAs to unload the last ten rows first and everyone else should stay seated.

My question is -- why are sUA 739s so susceptible to tipping?

Has it actually happened? How often?
 
boilerla
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:19 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Thread starter):

My question is -- why are sUA 739s so susceptible to tipping?

It's not just UA 739s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLWxD0gY__A

Delta literally uses a stick to prop up the tail of the plane. Wouldn't be surprised if UA does the same with all the 739s they're adding to the fleet.
 
coolian2
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:20 pm

Sounds like it's less the aircraft (which are prone to tipping) and more with organising the load.

I do remember at least one PMCO bird that tipped.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:25 pm

I fixed the URL. It shoud link now.

That must be hard on the nose gear.

It's not just UA 739s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLWxD0gY__A

[Edited 2016-01-31 14:26:32]
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:26 pm

Same issue at AS...special deplaning procedure involves removing aft pit bags before pax are allowed to deplane. Testing recently was completed on custom tail-stands and they're now being distributed to stations that see the -900.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:26 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLWxD0gY__A

As far as 737s go, it is possible with 738s and larger.

UA should just invest in tailstands. Instead of having their crews to do this.

[Edited 2016-01-31 14:28:32]
 
durangomac
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:36 pm

Multiple carriers with 739's have the issue and how most airlines load cargo on these aircraft is also part of the issue. Usually hot bags and local bags are in the front bin, all the rest is in the rear bins, when you do this you end up with lots of heavy cargo in the rear.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:41 pm

I know DL places poles near the tailskid protector when their 739s are on the ground to prevent the planes from tipping over.
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Viscount724
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:58 pm

Related blog item from last July. The author also writes for Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine.
http://www.briansumers.com/home/2015...p-problems-with-the-boeing-737-900
 
questions
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:18 pm

My least favorite aircraft!

What a poorly designed variant. Add to that several airlines having further bastardized it with their cabin design choices.

An incredibly awful passenger and crew experience Boeing and the airlines have created!

The only ones who like this POS are the bean counters!
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:46 pm

It's reality with a poorly designed stretch. You don't see that issue with the 777, 767 or 747. The center of gravity is too far forward relative to the seating and cargo.

The marketplace spoke vis a vie the 739ER vs the 321. This likely wasn't tne main issue but this coupled with its performance issues make it a dog.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:48 pm

Does the 321 have this issue? It's of a similar length.
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:05 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 4):
Same issue at AS...special deplaning procedure involves removing aft pit bags before pax are allowed to deplane. Testing recently was completed on custom tail-stands and they're now being distributed to stations that see the -900.

737-900, a variant too far. One would think the boys at Boeing would have found this out beforehand.

A tail stand?   Oh, brother! The least Boeing could have done is build it in like the folks at Ilyushin did with the IL-62!
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
xdlx
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:28 am

What a piece of CRAP! .... Come on now, I imagine most airlines self insure themselves. But how do you litigate the defense of a lawsuit? When the MFG gives you a stand so the airplane does not tip over.   
 
Flaps
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 13):
A tail stand?   Oh, brother! The least Boeing could have done is build it in like the folks at Ilyushin did with the IL-62!

A tail stand is no big deal. They are used all the time in cargo operations. The 727-200 has the same issue. As does the DC10 and the stretch 8's. If the damn thing had significant weight and balance issues that limited or jeopardized flight operations that would be an issue. Using a tail stand is no different than using a set of stairs or a belt loader. Balance challenges with shifting loads during loading and offloading are not a big deal and are a part of regular operations. You plan for them and you work them accordingly. The only issue I have ever had with a tail stand is when some jackass forgets to put it back on the aircraft before departure.

Quoting questions (Reply 9):
The only ones who like this POS are the bean counters!

They make the purchase decisions. I would hardly call any aircraft in continuous production for 50 years a POS design. Boeing wanted to build a new aircraft eh customers said no.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:43 am

Quoting questions (Reply 9):
What a poorly designed variant.

Was the 727 also poorly-designed? It and others had a similar issue. If not mistaken that's why the rear airstairs on 727s was usually lowered on the ground even if it wasn't being used for access to the aircraft. It also served as a tail stand to prevent this (stored aircraft):




I've also read that some other types (Embraer 145 is one I recall) sometimes have to carry ballast in the forward cargo compartment when passenger and baggage loads are light.

It's also not unique to narrowbodies. You'll find plenty of A.net photos of widebodies sitting on their tail.
 
xdlx
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:47 am

Boeing should learn , it has happened before here another example of going wrong the other way the 5/600.

A great design in the 200/300/400 not so much in 100/500/600
Much improved 700/800 ..... 900 not exactly!
 
N766UA
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:00 am

I remember when I worked the ramp the E170 was a new jet to us; we were told unload the aft bin first, lest we risk putting the plane on its ass. I guess Embraer sucks at designing jets too, huh?
 
Flaps
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:09 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
I remember when I worked the ramp the E170 was a new jet to us; we were told unload the aft bin first, lest we risk putting the plane on its ass. I guess Embraer sucks at designing jets too, huh?

Im with you there.

That 900/9MAX is some POS:

To date:

900 - 52 (Boeing)
900ER - 518 (Boeing)
9-MAX - 418 (Wiki)

988 orders to date for just this POS fuselage length. Yep that's a real piece of crap.

  (This would be a great spot for a barfing smiley).
 
Boeing12345
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:20 am

UA is in the process of going with the tailstand on the 900ER's. Its not in use yet, but shouldn't be too far off now.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:34 am

Quoting Boeing12345 (Reply 20):
UA is in the process of going with the tailstand on the 900ER's

The tailstand works well at AS; they were developed internally, in partnership with Boeing.

Do the UA -900ERs have mid-cabin lavs? At one point AS considered retrofitting the 900ER fleet with mid-cabin lavs to diminish the chance of CG issues causing tipping during deplaning.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Viscount724
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:58 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 21):
Quoting Boeing12345 (Reply 20):
UA is in the process of going with the tailstand on the 900ER's

The tailstand works well at AS; they were developed internally, in partnership with Boeing.

Tailstands weren't unknown in the propeller era either. As the song title says, everything old is new again.

PSA DC-4, still in basic Capital Airlines livery with the rectangular outlines painted around the circular windows to make it look more like a DC-6.

http://m3.i.pbase.com/o6/30/511730/1/72310983.7kzClDqj.DC46s1551DC4N86557PSA.jpg

Maybe Boeing can consult with Ilyushin and design a retractable tailstand for the 739 with little wheels as on the IL-62.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/XZEYN.jpg
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:04 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 21):
Do the UA -900ERs have mid-cabin lavs?

There are 4 UA 739 configs. 2 have no mid-cabin lavs, 2 do.
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:17 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 15):
A tail stand is no big deal. They are used all the time in cargo operations.

Yes, they are, but, cargo aircraft don't generally run as tight a turn schedule as a passenger plane, do they?
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:29 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 23):

There are 4 UA 739 configs. 2 have no mid-cabin lavs, 2 do.

Which configuration makes up the bulk of the -900ER fleet?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DualQual
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:30 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 23):

All the 739ERs have a mid cabin lav.
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UA444
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:30 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 19):
9-MAX - 418 (Wiki

The actual number is around 200.
 
Flaps
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:32 am

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 24):

Yes, they are, but, cargo aircraft don't generally run as tight a turn schedule as a passenger plane, do they?


Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Either way it's irrelevant. The use of a tail stand has ZERO impact on turnaround time.
I used to regularly turn a 727-200, adding 8 positions plus bellies in 20 minutes, block in to block out. The tail stand had no impact on turn around. Chocks in, bellies opened and tail stand put in as the loader erected and the stairs rolled up. Reverse the procedure on the outbound, tail stand removed and stowed as the crew signed off the paperwork. No impact on the turn whatsoever.
 
dash400
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:36 am

Quoting questions (Reply 9):
My least favorite aircraft!

What a poorly designed variant. Add to that several airlines having further bastardized it with their cabin design choices.

An incredibly awful passenger and crew experience Boeing and the airlines have created!

The only ones who like this POS are the bean counters!

COULDN'T agree with you more. As a s-UA (pmUA) flight attendant , I can assure you that most of us can't stand working on this ugly aluminum tube. So awful for cabin crew and economy passengers. I wish we'd ordered more Airbuses instead. Awful.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:49 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):

Excellent video. I've not seen such an effective demonstration of how levers work since primary school.

There have been a number if times in my life when, following an unfortunate event involving damage to (non-aviation) equipment of some sort, the first thing that goes through my mind is, "Okay. Let's think about this. How is this *not* my fault?"

Must give the ground crew a bit of unwelcome anxiety. "Hey boss: I don't know what happened. She's done it again."

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Was the 727 also poorly-designed?

I'm sure engine 2 happily contributes to this condition. Still, I find it hard to believe that this occurs absent a breach of loading/unloading procedures. If this were a reasonably foreseeable condition of the aircraft during a by-the-book disembarkation event, that tail support would certainly be a design feature. Even without complete compliance with protocol, if it happens often enough, that tail support should still certainly be a design feature.
 
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ADent
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:55 am

I had my first 737-900ER flight recently. I really liked the new Sky interior. It was much nicer and roomier than the RJs I have been on almost exclusively lately. The flight was 100% full.

But while we were deplaning I was wondering about tipping. We opened the front door at 12:27 and I moved at 12:39 - I was in row 33. The people in the front were long gone (10 min ago), while the back was completely full, including all the overhead bins.

On the other hand if we did not tip this flight, what would it take to tip?
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:19 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 21):
The tailstand works well at AS; they were developed internally, in partnership with Boeing.

It baffles me that Boeing hasn't made one commercially for their carriers. With over 5,000 738 & 739s flying Boeing could of made some money selling these

Quoting ADent (Reply 31):
On the other hand if we did not tip this flight, what would it take to tip?

Depending on whats downstairs
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:20 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Does the 321 have this issue? It's of a similar length.

Standard procedure for F9 back when they only had nothing larger than the A319 was to unload the back first and load at least 30 bags in the front before starting aft loading. So, logical extrapolation would say yes, even if not to the same extreme.

For what it's worth, UA has also REPEATEDLY issued guidance that the load plans for the 737-900 should be front-heavy and that the front should be loaded first and unloaded last.

And the E-170 family is packed to the gills in the front bin first before loading the back.

Airplanes are designed to fly first, THEN consideration is given to what needs to happen to load an unload them. The 900 flies perfectly fine and the tail-tip issue is hardly an epidemic. It is, however, serious enough a concern that special procedures exist with all airlines to handle the risk with MULTIPLE types, not just the 900.
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rbavfan
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:37 am

Someone already beat me to the IL-62 but not the VC-10 which i believe also had the same feature.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:46 am

Quoting DualQual (Reply 26):
All the 739ERs have a mid cabin lav.

My bad. Got the 738 and 739 a bit mixed up I guess.    There are 3 UA configs for the 738, 1 of which has the mid-cabin lav IIRC.
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md3
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:46 am

Quoting DualQual (Reply 26):

All the 739ERs have a mid cabin lav.

No mid-cabin lavs exist in the AS fleet anymore. Not only have all 900er's been delivered to AS with all 3 Y lavs in the rear, but all original 900's have been refitted to match the rest of the fleet.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 21):
The tailstand works well at AS; they were developed internally, in partnership with Boeing.

I've heard rumblings of of issues during the early usage, and the system wide roll-out chedule has been effected while tweaks are being made to the design.
 
theSFOspotter
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:48 am

Quoting questions (Reply 9):

An incredibly awful passenger and crew experience Boeing and the airlines have created

I flew the UA 739ER on KOA-SFO last year in the new configuration on a redeye in the third to last row. I enjoyed it...
Q-400 A319 A320 B737-300/400/700/800/900ER B757-200/300 B787-8
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:50 am

Quoting md3 (Reply 36):
No mid-cabin lavs exist in the AS fleet anymore.

I believe he was referring specifically to UA's 739s in response to an incorrect comment on my part. DL's 739s don't have a mid-cabin lav either.
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md3
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:58 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 38):

I believe he was referring specifically to UA's 739s in response to an incorrect comment on my part. DL's 739s don't have a mid-cabin lav either.

My mistake. Interesting to find out variations by carrier.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:08 am

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 33):
Standard procedure for F9 back when they only had nothing larger than the A319 was to unload the back first and load at least 30 bags in the front

I never heard that.

Can anyone confirm?
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DualQual
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:15 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 38):

No worries! I was referring to UAs. I think all the 738s have been reconfigured sans the mid cabin lav. If not they will be.

[Edited 2016-01-31 20:16:25]
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United1
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:15 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 35):
Quoting DualQual (Reply 26):
All the 739ERs have a mid cabin lav.

My bad. Got the 738 and 739 a bit mixed up I guess.    There are 3 UA configs for the 738, 1 of which has the mid-cabin lav IIRC.

Actually there are no more mid cabin lavs on the 738s...all have 1 up front and 2 in the back. All of the 900s and 900ERs have mid cabin lavs however  
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Adipasquale
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:20 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 42):
Actually there are no more mid cabin lavs on the 738s

Shows how long it's been since I've been on a UA 738. Didn't realize they got rid of the mid-cabin lavs, but it doesn't really surprise me. The more seats, the better, lol.
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trent1000
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:23 am

Quoting durangomac (Reply 6):
hot bags and local bags

what are hot bags and local bags?
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:37 am

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 44):
what are hot bags and local bags?

Hot bags are labeled as such when their connection is less than an hour. They have to be unloaded first so they do not miss their connecting flight. Local means the bag does not have a connecting flight.

[Edited 2016-01-31 20:39:09]
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dinker225
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:42 am

Hot bags are bags with a very tight connection. Probably between 45-60 minutes or less. Local bags are bags terminating in that city. Not making a connection.
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questions
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:46 am

I love how people are saying this in no problem, "just look at the DC4"... "IL62 has a tail stand with wheels!"... and the 737, designed in the 1960s (!), "is such a great aircraft."

Let me clarify:

- This is 2016, not prop era 1940.
- We're talking about the 737-900... not the -100, -200, -300, -400, -500, -600, -700 or -800.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:58 am

Quoting questions (Reply 47):
737, designed in the 1960s (!), "is such a great aircraft."

Well, airlines have ordered hundreds of 739s, so while you and many others might hate it with a burning passion, the fact is that the 739 is, in fact, a good airplane.
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Dalavia
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:45 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 48):
Well, airlines have ordered hundreds of 739s, so while you and many others might hate it with a burning passion, the fact is that the 739 is, in fact, a good airplane.

According to that simple line of reasoning, the An-2 is the "best" airliner ever, and the DC-3 is better than the 739.
 
CO953
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RE: Tipping Problems On Tail-Heavy UA 739s

Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:15 am

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 13):
737-900, a variant too far. One would think the boys at Boeing would have found this out beforehand.

A tail stand? Oh, brother! The least Boeing could have done is build it in like the folks at Ilyushin did with the IL-62!

Boeing oughta make lemons outta lemonade and go ahead and retrofit it as a taildragger and be done with it....
  

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