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seabosdca
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:04 pm

Yes, this looks a lot like a 757 Mark 2. But I think starting with the smaller (top to bottom) and lighter 737 fuselage is probably the right move. Redesign the wingbox and get some taller gear, and now you can up weights, install big fans, install a state-of-the-art wing with 777X-style folding wingtips, and compete with whatever A320 derivatives Airbus can dream up.

I just hope there is a new cockpit, whether one derived from the 757 design or an all-new one. Pilots seem to strongly dislike the 737 cockpit's layout, and the cockpit is small and very cramped. Pilots deserve better.

And I think whether there is a new cockpit would mostly be dependent on the NLG solution. The 757's NLG is installed much further back on the fuselage than that in the 737. If the 737 gear well (which is mostly within the front section) can be stretched back a bit to accommodate a longer NLG, then the new aircraft could have greater cargo capacity in the front hold than a 757, but would have to use more or less the existing 737 cockpit. If the NLG has to be pushed back 757-style, that would allow for a roomier cockpit, possibly at the expense of cargo space.
 
FlyHossD
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:20 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 6):
I really hope they raise the window line if they use the 737 fuselage.

Lowering the floor and inch or two would be an improvement and have the same effect. IIRC, the 757 floor was an inch lower than the 727/737.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
lostsound
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:27 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):

As we have repeatedly established on this site, the cabin cross-section of the 737 is 100% identical to that of the 757. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. Boeing has the measurements publicly available.

That's nice. Irrelevant to my complaint though. I'm still uncomfortable on my 737NG flights...
 
airbazar
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:01 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 22):
The point is to blow the A321neo out of the water with the MoM.

You can't really blow the A321neo out of the water because the A321neo is part of a larger family. It costs very little for airlines to add a fleet of A321neo's if they already operate the A320. That's the whole point of the A321neo and even more important regarding the A321neoLR. Very few of the A321neo customers are not already A320 operators. Of the major ones only KE and HA, IIRC.
What Boeing is trying to do here is mitigate the loss of existing Boeing customers to the A321neo and maybe get some of the ones they already lost, back. They really have no choice because this segment is growing and their product isn't as capable. The order backlog speaks for itself: 1094 A321neo's vs. 418 739MAX's.
 
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par13del
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
I believe the piece about using the 737 MAX body is something that we haven't heard yet. Taller gear, new presumably bigger wing and larger engines on a 737 body - sounds like a 757-esque plane to me.

So once we stretch the 737 and add larger engines, how much closer in weight does it get to the 767-200?????
Another alternative would be to NEO the 767-200 along with some FAT Trimming and bingo, larger capacity and range than the 757 and A321, easier / quicker turn time, and outside of the A380, the most comfortable size wide body a/c going.
 
atlflyer
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:21 pm

Please Boeing...not the 737 fuselage! The A320 is so much more comfortable!
 
Eagleboy
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
"Customers are pushing for an all-new jet,
Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
design features new wings and stretches the 737's body to seat up to 245 passengers and adds taller landing gear to make room for larger engines,

I'm confused by this contradiction by Ostrower
 
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Polot
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 56):
I'm confused by this contradiction by Ostrower

A plane can be an "all new jet" while still keeping the 737 body. Unless you think the 727/737/757 are all derivatives of the 707 (yes, I know they have different lower lobes) and the A330/A340 are derivatives of the A300 versus all new jets.
 
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DocLightning
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 52):

That's nice. Irrelevant to my complaint though. I'm still uncomfortable on my 737NG flights...

Then that's your imagination if you are comfortable on a 757. If you decide that the 737 will make you uncomfortable, then it will. Those of us in Medicine are very familiar with the amazing power of the placebo effect.

I am constantly stunned by assertations that there is a difference. There is no difference in the fuselage cross-section. In fact, with the new BSI, the 737 offers 2-3 mm more interior width than the 757 did.
-Doc Lightning-

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cschleic
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:35 pm

All the discussion reminds me of magazine articles I've read over the years, often with interviews of Boeing and Airbus engineers or managers, with some specific points sticking.

A couple of them were.... 1) The 737 has been stretched as much as possible due to the landing gear. Stretching more would require redesigning that (as discussed above). 2) All of the significant aerodynamic improvements that can be made have been made....wing design, winglets/sharklets, etc. Anything more usually is incremental. The only place for game-changing economics is engines (which we see with the NEOs on existing airframes) and materials (i.e. weight, with the 787 and A350).

With that in mind, any stretch / major modification to the 737 is just that, and might or might not have as significant an appeal over a 321 derivative. It would depend on specifics. On the other hand, developing something new, perhaps with some amount of 787 type materials, could provide significant economic gains and change the narrow body game for many decades.

Also interesting to think about, with the 737 fuselage based on the 707 from the 1950s, it's possible that the basic cross-section could end up being in production for over 100 years.
 
tortugamon
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:36 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 32):
Probably or they hope for a common type certificate and use some grandfather rights from the 737 so that stretching

I am sure there is a variety of reasons that tilt in its favor.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 32):
Probably or they hope for a common type certificate and use some grandfather rights from the 737 so that stretching and strengthening the 737 might end up lighter than taking out weight on the 757.
Quoting par13del (Reply 54):
So once we stretch the 737 and add larger engines, how much closer in weight does it get to the 767-200?????

Well a 752 is about 58t a 762 is 82t and an A321 is 48.5t (about 6t more than the A320). I would imagine 60t would be the top end of this 757NG which is 20t+ lighter than a 762. I also prefer a 767-based solution but its hard to see how they can get around this.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 56):
I'm confused by this contradiction by Ostrower

Good question. I think airlines are looking for a clean sheet but don't want to pay clean sheet pricing so Boeing is going back to them to see if a cheap solution might work. I do wonder if all new is automatically clean sheet as Polot mentioned

tortugamon
 
highflier92660
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:45 pm

Because the new Boeing 757 will be flying transatlantic routes, I hope Boeing puts an .85 Mach wing on it. There is no reason the new a/c should be crawling along at .78-.80 on an aircraft designed to fly well over 4,000 nm.
 
lostsound
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
Then that's your imagination if you are comfortable on a 757. If you decide that the 737 will make you uncomfortable, then it will. Those of us in Medicine are very familiar with the amazing power of the placebo effect.

I am constantly stunned by assertations that there is a difference. There is no difference in the fuselage cross-section. In fact, with the new BSI, the 737 offers 2-3 mm more interior width than the 757 did.

You're assuming I've ever flown on 757. I have not. Other planes my arms remain on the arm rest and not in my neighbors lap. I'm not pretending the 737 is uncomfortable, it actually is for me.
 
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PatrickZ80
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:54 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 31):
The 757 nose was to fit a 767 cockpit (the reason it sits lower in the fuselage than on the 737) to allow dual certification for 757 / 767 pilots - no longer relevant so 737 nose should be fine.

Unless they fit it with a 787 cockpit.

I do see some future for this "small dreamliner". No doubt it'll have a longer range than the 737 just like the 757 did. It can be used on long-haul routes for wich a dreamliner is too big, or operate out of airports that have a too short runway for the 787.
 
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BasilFawlty
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 1):
"Customers are pushing for an all-new jet, bigger than the Max but smaller than the Dreamliner.

Its called the A321 NEO (+LR if required)

  

Quoting parapente (Reply 1):
"The design features new wings and stretches the 737's body to seat up to 245 passengers and adds taller landing gear to make room for larger engines."

Its called the A321 NEO (+LR if required)

  

But... can the A321 NEO (+LR if required) also do transatlantic flying without restrictions (which will be the primary reason for airlines)?
No!   

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 37):
This has been hashed around a lot on here over the past several years, and it always comes back to the simplest reason of all: The tooling is gone.

And why would that be an excuse? If Boeing really wants to they could definitely re-install all the tooling.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 37):
They'd basically be resurrecting something that is dead, and if you are going to do that, why not either go with the 737 instead or just do a clean sheet?

Because the 737 is not what airlines want and clean sheet will be too expensive.

Just take the 757, new engines, new wings, fuselage from new materials, and there you go. Jeremy Clarkson would say:
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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scbriml
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 64):
Just take the 757, new engines, new wings, fuselage from new materials, and there you go.

So around $10-12 billion and engines that don't exist today? Can't see it happening.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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seabosdca
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:24 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 64):
But... can the A321 NEO (+LR if required) also do transatlantic flying without restrictions (which will be the primary reason for airlines)?
No!   

Depends on configuration. In less-dense configurations it will have longer range than the 757. The 757 does better at higher density, though. Depends if you want to carry 160 people in 3-class or 220 people in charter.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 64):
Just take the 757, new engines, new wings, fuselage from new materials, and there you go. Jeremy Clarkson would say:

It's fitting that you quote such a    in support of this argument.

Why start with the 757, which is out of production and has a significantly heavier fuselage than a 737, when you could start with the 737 instead? You're designing a new wing box, wing, and MLG either way, and with the notable exception of the cockpit there are no really compelling advantages to the 757 fuselage.
 
braniff722
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:25 pm

I HAVE AN IDEA, BOEING!!!!

Ready?

Brace yourselves.......

"What once was old is, 'New Again'..."

It's called........


The Boeing 727-300.

The time is now!  
Living large in KSHV
 
tortugamon
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:34 pm

Quoting highflier92660 (Reply 61):
Because the new Boeing 757 will be flying transatlantic routes, I hope Boeing puts an .85 Mach wing on it. There is no reason the new a/c should be crawling along at .78-.80 on an aircraft designed to fly well over 4,000 nm.

I think the most important element will be to match A321neo per seat economics while adding range - next comes the nice things like a faster cruise speed. I agree it will really need to be faster for those long routes.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 64):
If Boeing really wants to they could definitely re-install all the tooling.

I am not convinced they still have it. We know they don't have the facility any longer.

I suspect they are casually eyeing the venerable 747 space in Everett for this which is sad.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 64):
Just take the 757, new engines, new wings, fuselage from new materials, and there you go. Jeremy Clarkson would say:

As soon as you start messing with materials and/or dimensions of the fuse then you start really getting an expensive certification process.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 65):
So around $10-12 billion and engines that don't exist today? Can't see it happening.   

The max has new gear and new engines and that is ~$2b. Sure new wings could be $2B and a stretch will add some certainly but there will also be fewer models. Not sure it would go past $10B if they don't touch the fuse except to stretch it.

tortugamon
 
frmrCapCadet
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 26):
Might as well just bring back the 707

Current 320s and 737s (in their myriad versions) are or will be flying many if not most of the early 707 routes.

When it comes to aerodynamics improvements are not in the tube, but the various ways of attaching wings, engines, tail and et cetera as I understand.
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SonomaFlyer
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:43 pm

The 737 needs to end...period. There is not need or want to stretch it any further.

If Boeing fears designing a new a/c, then look to the 757-300....incorporate aerodynamic improvements and new materials. Give THIS a/c a new wing and improved engine and flog it to carriers. That will render it larger than the 321 and (depending on the wing, engines and materials) meet the range demands.

The other option is having the 757-200 size as the base model with the -300 as a stretch.

I'd think after the painful 787 learning curve experienced by Boeing, they now have a base of knowledge to go with a CFRP clean sheet design. The materials and methods of the 787 could be leveraged and they should be able to easily meet the range demands. It might be more expensive than rejiggering the 757 but they aren't going from scratch either given the 787 body of knowledge.
 
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Revelation
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:43 pm

Quoting cschleic (Reply 59):
A couple of them were.... 1) The 737 has been stretched as much as possible due to the landing gear. Stretching more would require redesigning that (as discussed above).

Such statements were presumably made during the "moon shot" era. As above all of this might be an elaborate ruse, but if not, we could be seeing that necessity is the mother of invention.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 59):
The only place for game-changing economics is engines (which we see with the NEOs on existing airframes) and materials (i.e. weight, with the 787 and A350).

Wings presumably would be new material so lighter and more lift. Imagine if they just go to LEAP-1A and/or GTF instead of using current LEAP-1B, then they'd get the same engine as A321neo on a better wing and not have to do a new engine, and could track the A321 change for change. Then the onus would be on Airbus to destabilize the duopoly and fund an all-new a/c.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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scbriml
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:46 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 68):
Not sure it would go past $10B if they don't touch the fuse except to stretch it.

Sure, but BasilFawlty wants an all-new 757. I just can't see it costing less than $10 billion.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tortugamon
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 72):
Sure, but BasilFawlty wants an all-new 757. I just can't see it costing less than $10 billion.

agreed.

tortugamon
 
ukoverlander
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:48 pm

Hmmmm a stretched and reheated 737.....now there's a novel concept! How exciting!!!!!   
 
WIederling
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 69):

Boeing could still progress to a fully supercritical wing.
What they've got now on the 737NG is a thing that "has elements of a supercritical wing" ( NASA document )
Murphy is an optimist
 
mat66
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:59 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 40):
and/or CFM can be beat silly to pay for continued exclusivity

I was wondering about engines and apart from a P&W GTF this could be it. And it's kind of funny as well.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 22):
The point is to blow the A321neo out of the water with the MoM

it's a duopoly. Both are happy with 50% at the huge numbers they can sell. Right now at the upper end of the single aisle market it is out of balance. This could fix it. Why should Boeing jump higher?

Boeing is probably considering 3 points at the moment.

- is it good enough?

- is it fast enough coming to market?

- is the price right?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 71):
Then the onus would be on Airbus to destabilize the duopoly and fund an all-new a/c.

excellent point   
 
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BasilFawlty
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:00 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 68):
I am not convinced they still have it. We know they don't have the facility any longer.

Me neither, but since they did it all before they should be able to do it all again. Facilities and tooling can be rebuild with all the knowlegde and experience they already have combined with new and modern technologies that weren't available yet back then.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 68):
I suspect they are casually eyeing the venerable 747 space in Everett for this which is sad.

No it isn't, the 747 should have been pronounced dead when the last -400 was delivered in 2009. Airlines don't want 747's anymore, what they want is a replacement for their longhaul 757 needs.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 72):
Sure, but BasilFawlty wants an all-new 757.

I don't want anything, I'm just saying what airlines want and what Boeing fails to see so far.   Yes, 12 years ago there was no point to keep the 757 line open. But now, 12 years later times have changed, a lot!
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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NWAROOSTER
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:03 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 28):
Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 23):
I think the only ones that want a longer 737 is the Aneters and it is just a pipe dream

Well this WSJ suggests its more than just us.

The Wall Street Journal is simply generating articles basically to sell newspapers. I think the the WSJ has about as much insight into aircraft as my 12 year old grandson.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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litz
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:10 pm

There have been multiple threads here about restarting 757 production. The general consensus is, the tooling no longer exists. There is a material cost to that stuff, and manufacturers do not keep that stuff around.

Some destroy it, some sell it off, which is how in 2002 you had Jeep Cherokee look-alikes being made in China (guess who bought the surplus tooling after the model's production ended and the factory was demolished).

Considering the size of this stuff, and the re-use of the space, if they DID still have it, where the heck would they store it? and keep it hidden so nobody found it? Very highly unlikely.

What they DO have is all the engineering documents to use as a ground-base on a new offering, which would save them considerable time and expense compared to a from-scratch start point.

And 60+ years of experience in designing and building jet airplanes.

The simple fact is, if the airlines want it, they'll find a way to manufacture the product the airlines want. That's called business.

What they will NOT do is build a product to suit a market that doesn't exist. That's called bad business.
 
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SEPilot
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:23 pm

Quoting kelvin933 (Reply 12):

If you keep the 737 fuselage and replace the wings, engines, MLG and cockpit the certification costs are going to hit the same level as a new aircraft, nothing will be reusable from the 737 certificate.

Like the 777X? As far as I know that will be done under the 777 type certificate.

Quoting Flyingclrs727 (Reply 25):
How about a twin aisle oval cross section that can seat 8 abreast with 17.5 inch seats? It could be a 737-900, 757-200, 757-300, 767-200, and 767-300 replacement.

An oval cross section poses serious structural problems. Pressurized vessels want to be round, and trying to make an oval fuselage would make it a lot heavier. You can use the floor to distort the round shape, but the result still wants to be two semicircles. The problem with using the floor to widen the cross section is that that puts the floor in compression, which adds the wrong kind of stress, meaning the floor must be heavier. Also, the fuselage walls will want to slope inward, which means shoulder height width will be less than floor width, which defeats the purpose. Bracing to avoid this adds considerable weight.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 59):
2) All of the significant aerodynamic improvements that can be made have been made....wing design, winglets/sharklets, etc. Anything more usually is incremental. The only place for game-changing economics is engines (which we see with the NEOs on existing airframes) and materials (i.e. weight, with the 787 and A350).

This is really the key. The astronomical cost of a clean sheet design is very hard to justify unless it brings significant benefits. If CFRP technology advances to the point where it will provide significant cost savings (which I believe Boeing believed would happen for the 787 but did not), or another new material comes along that will provide significant weight savings (since at present I understand CFRP will not provide significant weight savings for a narrowbody) then perhaps a case can be made for a new design. But with the competitive pressure from the A321, I can see that it will be very hard to resist using the 737 fuselage. It will save a great deal of time and money getting it to the market, and will probably make more money for Boeing, and will only lose a very small percentage of efficiency to a clean sheet design.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
mjoelnir
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:24 pm

It does not have to be that a slightly wider and higher fuselage than the 737 for a hypothetical "757" replacement has to be heavier than a simple further stretch of the 737. If you get to a certain length you increase strength by increasing diameter.
Perhaps part of the weight of the 757 fuselage is how far the narrow diameter is stretched.

If Boeing does a new "757", why keep the diameter when throwing out everything else? It was easy enough changed on the way from the 367-80 to the KC135 to the 707.

It should not be a big thing too make it slightly wider and at the same time to accommodate industry standard LD3-45. Make a new aerodynamic optimised nose accommodating a 787 comparable flight deck. Than reuse the nose and flight deck on the 737 replacement.
I can well imagine an aluminium fuselage for cost control and CFRP wing with a 30° sweep for slightly higher speeds. Make space under the wings for an engine with a big fan. Make the volume in the wing big enough that needed fuel would only be carried in the wing and eventual a wing box tank for an ER version.
 
chiad
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:30 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 53):
The order backlog speaks for itself: 1094 A321neo's vs. 418 739MAX's.

I belive that most of Lion Air's B737MAX order will be for the -8 series. It will certainly not be for all 201 frames.
I will put the B739MAX backlog on less than 300 units. Time will tell.
 
RIX
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:33 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 1):

Its called the A321 NEO (+LR if required)

"It's called A330" part II?  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
It's basically repeating the process of the 777X...

Any chance to have it wider inside? (Wider than 737, not 777  ). To get rid of "5.5-seats wide" 707 heritage.
 
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SEPilot
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:46 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 81):
If Boeing does a new "757", why keep the diameter when throwing out everything else? It was easy enough changed on the way from the 367-80 to the KC135 to the 707.

A new fuselage diameter means a new fuselage, and it will no longer be a 737 derivative. 367-80 was never certified, and the KC135 was never certified as a civil airliner. So it was not an issue.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Btblue
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:03 pm

Hmm...

So stretch the 737, give it legs and a new wing. I think this is just smoke and nothing more than flogging a dead horse, or one that's on its way to the knackers yard.

Would it not be wiser to re-wing the 757 (yes, I know I know the tooling is in the bin, but let's just use it as a template).

New engines

Put the whole thing on a diet

Offer the 200 and 300 iterations

A new aircraft to cater for the growing LCC market and long thin haul legacy carrier route.

A stretched 737 to 245 seats doesn't really fill the gap between it and the 787 - there is still a gap there.
 
mjoelnir
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:08 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 84):
A new fuselage diameter means a new fuselage, and it will no longer be a 737 derivative.

Yes, but it also brings advantages. Tying that new bird to the 737 fuselage diameter is an early death sentence.
 
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enzo011
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:52 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
To be fair, the article points out both a new design and a "737X" are being considered.

And all previous articles were talking about a new design and not a stretch of the 737. You have to agree that this is the first time we read about a possible 737 stretch.
 
tortugamon
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:46 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 78):
The Wall Street Journal is simply generating articles basically to sell newspapers. I think the the WSJ has about as much insight into aircraft as my 12 year old grandson.   

Jon Ostrower used to write the FlightBlogger blog at FlightGlobal before going to the WSJ. I find him to be knowledgeable and professional and seems to be an authentic avgeek. I respect him.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 59):
2) All of the significant aerodynamic improvements that can be made have been made....wing design, winglets/sharklets, etc. Anything more usually is incremental. The only place for game-changing economics is engines (which we see with the NEOs on existing airframes) and materials (i.e. weight, with the 787 and A350).

Well with the increased range that they will be going for additional changes would/could/should be made. The wingspan of the 737 has been limited from ideal because of gate spacing but this aircraft should not be limited and could benefit from folding wing tip treatment depending on the 777 experience with it.

Also, this new aircraft would have a half a generation newer engine - maybe a GTF with more ceramic deposits to offer higher operating temperatures a la GE - or a CFM GTF...

CFRP wing in general has its benefits as well which could give it an aero advantage over the competition.

I think there are things they can do to improve this design. I disagree with many here and think that changing the width of the aircraft is not essential; I am don't even think it is important. A nice to have, sure, but not worth the $5B+ and the risk that would be involved in order to have it. I just don't see it.

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seabosdca
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:03 am

Quoting btblue (Reply 85):
Would it not be wiser to re-wing the 757 (yes, I know I know the tooling is in the bin, but let's just use it as a template).

Why? What would it bring over a lighter, re-geared and re-winged 737? The big issue with the 737 that limits its capabilities is the short gear.

Quoting btblue (Reply 85):
A stretched 737 to 245 seats doesn't really fill the gap between it and the 787 - there is still a gap there.

Assuming new gear, what's the gap? It could easily be heavy enough to fly short TATL missions.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 88):
Jon Ostrower used to write the FlightBlogger blog at FlightGlobal before going to the WSJ. I find him to be knowledgeable and professional and seems to be an authentic avgeek. I respect him.

   He has good sources and almost never publishes wrong information. I'd trust him more than just about any other writer to report Boeing internal discussions accurately.
 
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Revelation
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:07 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 20):
If you stretch the 737, add a new wing and landing gear, it is a 757. I still wonder what is wrong with a 757NEO?
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 64):
Just take the 757, new engines, new wings, fuselage from new materials, and there you go.
Quoting btblue (Reply 85):
Would it not be wiser to re-wing the 757 (yes, I know I know the tooling is in the bin, but let's just use it as a template).

Boeing's tools are gone. The entire supply chain is gone. FAA won't re-issue a production certificate without ensuring everything made today matches what was made from the last frame produced. AFAIK 757 was done in the pre-digital design era so it's not clear what plans are digital and what are not. Good luck with that exercise. Plus:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 65):
So around $10-12 billion and engines that don't exist today?

  

757 is heavy and needs engines in a larger thrust range than current 737 engines. Better off to take A321neo class engines and make a better wing to lift a stretched 737 fuselage, if that is at all possible.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 89):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 88):
Jon Ostrower used to write the FlightBlogger blog at FlightGlobal before going to the WSJ. I find him to be knowledgeable and professional and seems to be an authentic avgeek. I respect him.

   He has good sources and almost never publishes wrong information. I'd trust him more than just about any other writer to report Boeing internal discussions accurately.

And before all of that, a.net poster! Seems he still shows his face here from time to time...
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FlyHossD
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:11 am

"Any chance to have it wider inside? (Wider than 737, not 777 ). To get rid of "5.5-seats wide" 707 heritage."

Given that the passengers in the American market keep getting bigger, could 5 across be made to work in a practical ($) sense?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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lightsaber
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:12 am

I think this has potential. The subsystems of the 757 cost too much to maintain.

New wings are a given. To speed time to market, use 787 actuators.

The 757 has too many issues to NEO. A 737 'Maxed MAX' has more potential at first look.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
I presume they would need about 7 years to get it from launch to EIS so the earliest we could see this in 2023.

Engines and gear are the limit. Minimize the tweaks and it could be done in six years.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
. It's basically repeating the process of the 777X:

With hopefully a less complicated engine. To opererate as hot as the GE9x does..

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 22):
Besides, do you really expect Boeing to make the 737 forever?

They'll try...The parts have been debugged and re-engineered. It a longer corr

Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):
Yet Boeing decided against those things for MAX. Why would they now do it for what would effectively be one single MAX sub-type? Doesn't make sense to me.

After seeing the A321NEO dominate the top gauge, Boeing re-looked at the business case. The old business case was to minimize time to market for a competitive -8 MAX.

Quoting mat66 (Reply 17):
A 10 max with new and bigger wing would probably have the A321 LR range without the fuel containers = less weight and more fish.

Much more fish!!!

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 89):
Assuming new gear, what's the gap? It could easily be heavy enough to fly short TATL missions.

That is a crucial range gap. I see Boeing aiming for 5000 NM.

The seat gap will persist a there isn't enough money to be saved with a small widebody.

Lightsaber
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DocLightning
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:21 am

Quoting lostsound (Reply 62):

You're assuming I've ever flown on 757. I have not. Other planes my arms remain on the arm rest and not in my neighbors lap. I'm not pretending the 737 is uncomfortable, it actually is for me.

Then I would submit that you might be correct about the height of the windows. I know of nobody who can compare the comfort of the cabins when blinded.
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sv11
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:26 am

This is interesting. Start with the 737 Max fuselage (same cross section as 757) stretched to 757-200/300 length. Make the wing bigger so it carries another 500 nautical miles fuel. Design new landing gears. Ask CFM and Pratt&Whitney for a 43K thrust engine, maybe that much thrust is not required since 757 was overpowered. So get the 737 Max to 757 specs.

sv11
 
dash400
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:32 am

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 55):
Please Boeing...not the 737 fuselage! The A320 is so much more comfortable!

YES....Please no more 737 airframes.....we cabin crew arming doors with old-fashioned girt bars ...and the narrow aisle and lavatories. Disgusting airframe design. Awful.
 
travelhound
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:48 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 92):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 89):
Assuming new gear, what's the gap? It could easily be heavy enough to fly short TATL missions.

That is a crucial range gap. I see Boeing aiming for 5000 NM.

The seat gap will persist a there isn't enough money to be saved with a small widebody.

Lightsaber

For me the new wing is the exciting part of the proposal.

This could give the aircraft a distinct advantage over the A321NEO(LR).

It could also be a catalyst to update the 737 with more advanced systems in the future.

If Boeing can use the same production line to produce both aircraft there could be some very distinct advantages for using the 737 fuselage for the basis of the aircraft.
 
tortugamon
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:00 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 92):
Engines and gear are the limit. Minimize the tweaks and it could be done in six years.

Do you see a scaled up GTF and/or CFM Leap as a way to minimize tweaks. Will need a certain degree of up-gauge- think both are up to the task? Maybe GE brings it completely in-house.

tortugamon
 
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Revelation
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:08 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 96):
If Boeing can use the same production line to produce both aircraft there could be some very distinct advantages for using the 737 fuselage for the basis of the aircraft.

Yes, but 737 fuselages are built in Wichita KS at Spirit so they can be routed to wherever trains run relatively easily. Of course some curve radii and tunnel widths may need adjusting. See trains.net for that kind of thing!  

As we saw during the '737 submarine' incident the same train carries 737 parts to RNT and 777 parts to PAE from Wichita so getting parts to PAE is already a reality. And of course we can imagine it can't be too hard to get them to pretty much any other locality if the desire is large enough. Just look at what Airbus does to get A380 parts to TLS!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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flyingclrs727
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New 757 Replacement NMA Information - Part 1

Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:32 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 36):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 98):
Yes, but 737 fuselages are built in Wichita KS at Spirit so they can be routed to wherever trains run relatively easily. Of course some curve radii and tunnel widths may need adjusting. See trains.net for that kind of thing!  

At some length wouldn't it be easier to ship them as two halves rather than as a whole fuselage? Boeing had to scrutinize every foot of track between Spirit's factory and the Boeing assembly factories to make sure the 737-900 would fit. Apparently the most serious obstacles were railroad tunnels.

[Edited 2016-02-02 19:36:54]

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