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dcaord
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Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:01 pm

Will we ever see Transcon service from AA or UA into ORD? ORD-LAX is a huge market, especially on AA - I see big potential here.

[Edited 2016-02-03 12:54:03]
 
a380787
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:04 pm

Can we edit the title ? 1. ORD-LAX already exist, and 2. this is pure speculation with no basis for the rumor at all.
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:05 pm

Transcon[tinental] service crosses a continent. Since ORD is not near the edge of a continent, I think it will be quite some time before plate tectonic movements allow ORD to have transcontinental service.  
 
roseflyer
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:07 pm

Are you referring to the premium transcon type service that UA has between EWR and LAX/SFO and that AA has between JFK and SFO/LAX?
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:10 pm

Why? The distance between Chicago and either coast isn't far enough to justify premium transcon level of service. Only a few markets pairs can justify that level of service on transcons. It is only viable, because coast to coast travel times are just an hour or so shorter than the shortest transatlantic flights.

[Edited 2016-02-03 12:16:16]
 
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enilria
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:10 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 3):

Are you referring to the premium transcon type service that UA has between EWR and LAX/SFO and that AA has between JFK and SFO/LAX?

No idea what this topic is about...
 
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speedbored
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:12 pm

Does three quarters of the way across actually count as "transcon"?

Anyway, there are already flights between ORD and LAX on both AA and UA.
 
9w748capt
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:13 pm

Wow - what a misleading and deceptive thread title. And no.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:16 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 1):
Can we edit the title ? 1. ORD-LAX already exist, and 2. this is pure speculation with no basis for the rumor at all.

  . I'm really tired of these "bait" headings.
"Up the Irons!"
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:22 pm

Quoting dcaord (Thread starter):
Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

     

Not sure what this tread title means, but I can only assume that the OP wants to know whether premium services (a la United's p.s., AA's 321 seats and B6's Mint) are coming to ORD from either SFO or LAX.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Transcon Service Coming To Chicago

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:30 pm

A certain Nigerian singer believes that these flights are transcon in her song "Smooth Operator" if anyone gets the reference.   
 
bjorn14
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:08 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 9):

Yes, with my super secret decoder ring I figured out that is what the OP wanted to know. Well if people are willing to pay F fares for much shorter routes then anything is possible.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 10):

One of my fave songs.  
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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United787
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:11 pm

Quoting Flyingclrs727 (Reply 4):

Why? The distance between Chicago and either coast isn't far enough to justify premium transcon level of service. Only a few markets pairs can justify that level of service on transcons. It is only viable, because coast to coast travel times are just an hour or so shorter than the shortest transatlantic flights.

Agreed. I think I have flown LAX-ORD and SFO-ORD in 3.5 hours, not that bad of a flight. Plus, for as much as I love my hometown of Chicago, I don't think the market here demands premium only flights. I am curious to how much the Hollywood crowd supports the LAX-NYC premium routes...
 
stlgph
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:33 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 10):
A certain Nigerian singer believes that these flights are transcon in her song "Smooth Operator" if anyone gets the reference.

except she doesn't.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:58 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 14):
Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 10):
A certain Nigerian singer believes that these flights are transcon in her song "Smooth Operator" if anyone gets the reference.

except she doesn't.

Well, it's ambiguous whether "coast to coast" refers to the following line or if they are two separate lines.
 
stlgph
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:21 pm

no, it's not.
there's a coma.

and that concludes today's Airliners English 101 lesson.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
a380787
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:22 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 16):
no, it's not.
there's a coma.

and that concludes today's Airliners English 101 lesson.

A "coma" or a "comma" ??
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:25 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 17):

Quoting stlgph (Reply 16):
no, it's not.
there's a coma.

and that concludes today's Airliners English 101 lesson.

A "coma" or a "comma" ??

        
 
jfk777
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:26 pm

ORD to LAX is not long enough to match the JFK to LAX type service. Lie Flat seats would be a total waste. Could we imagine AA using A321T from ORD to LAX ? Anythng is possible but this is not likely.
 
Max752
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:40 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
. Lie Flat seats would be a total waste. Could we imagine AA using A321T from ORD to LAX ? Anythng is possible but this is not likely.

AA offers a lie-flat product pretty much every other month. It's not uncommon for ORD-LAX and vice versa to see their 767s doing one or two frequencies. I've personally flown ORD-LAX with and without lie-flats and the westbound flight can exceed four hours with a strong headwind. LAX-JFK can get down near 4.5hrs with a strong tailwind so a premium service isn't too bizarre on something like ORD-LAX.

ORD already has the infrastructure. For example, I've personally visited ORD's swanky Flagship check-in which has seating for 10 and can accommodate three separate passengers at once. Their Flagship Lounge is in desperate need of a facelift yet it can accommodate close to 75 pax at any given time.

Sure, I'd love American to offer their Flagship service on ORD-LAX with or without lie-flat seating but the demand for something as premium as that service just isn't there.

-Max
The Unaccompanied Flyer
Super 80, pff, more like Stupid 80 | TravelUpdate.com & TheCollegePoints.com |
 
jfk777
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:49 am

Quoting Max752 (Reply 20):

AA offers a lie-flat product pretty much every other month. It's not uncommon for ORD-LAX and vice versa to see their 767s doing one or two frequencies. I've personally flown ORD-LAX with and without lie-flats and the westbound flight can exceed four hours with a strong headwind. LAX-JFK can get down near 4.5hrs with a strong tailwind so a premium service isn't too bizarre on something like ORD-LAX.

Its one thing to fly one or two of ten flights with an internationally configured 767 or 787 which may just sit at ORD or LAX between flights to Europe or Asia & what the A321T is. Sadly AA probably will never do the A321T on ORD to LAX they will have to do an regular A321.
 
Max752
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:54 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
. Sadly AA probably will never do the A321T on ORD to LAX they will have to do an regular A321.

Oh, no doubt that AA will never fly a premium aircraft like the a321T on ORD-LAX however, AA could brand the premium cabins as "Flagship First" if they choose just as they do on MIA-LAX. MIA-LAX ranges from 737s to 77Ws however, the service in both cabins is considered "Flagship".

-Max
Super 80, pff, more like Stupid 80 | TravelUpdate.com & TheCollegePoints.com |
 
ben175
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:18 am

I think it's funny people are saying ORD-LAX is too short to justify a premium cabin when both QF and VA offer direct aisle access lie flat J on PER-MEL, which is sometimes under 2 hours 45 minutes!

[Edited 2016-02-03 17:31:02]
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 600
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:19 am

Quoting ben175 (Reply 23):
I think it's funny people are saying ORD-LAX is too short to justify a premium cabin when both QF and AA offer direct aisle access lie flat J on PER-MEL, which is sometimes under 2 hours 45 minutes!

AA flies domestic routes in Australia?
 
Max752
Posts: 372
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:30 am

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 24):
AA flies domestic routes in Australia?

In his defense, it's sold as a codeshare flight.

AA will put lie-flat seats on flights as short as an hour. However, just because the seats are part of their Flagship product, it doesn't mean AA sells them at a premium price nor do they offer premium "Flagship" service. The soft-product is key when differentiating between premium and non-premium routes on American.

-Max
Super 80, pff, more like Stupid 80 | TravelUpdate.com & TheCollegePoints.com |
 
ben175
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:31 am

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 24):

AA flies domestic routes in Australia?

Sorry, I meant to type VA.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:34 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 6):
Does three quarters of the way across actually count as "transcon"?

Anyway, there are already flights between ORD and LAX on both AA and UA.

The OP is referring to the premium type of service offered on transcon routes like JFK-LAX. In terms of geography, ORD-west coast has never been considered "transcon".
 
_AA_777_MAN
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:11 am

AFAIK AA is starting 321 service SFO/LAX-ORD in May '16. Not sure if its 321T tho..
 
Max752
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:09 am

Quoting _AA_777_MAN (Reply 27):
AFAIK AA is starting 321 service SFO/LAX-ORD in May '16. Not sure if its 321T tho..

It's standard a321 configuration with 16/150ish.

-Max
Super 80, pff, more like Stupid 80 | TravelUpdate.com & TheCollegePoints.com |
 
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CARST
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:23 pm

Some of you guys really should get away from the computer sometimes and stop trolling every thread. Whats so misleading about the topic? Or the OPs post at all? Why do you have to sound like total idiots and be so anal about how he used his words?

This is not a news website. Surprise, surprise!

This a forum, where people tend to ask questions and just toss ideads around to be discussed. This is what a.net is about...


And what he asks is not even unrealistic. Some of you would totally eat their words if UA tomorrow annouces P.S. flights from ORD to the West Coast. Or AA starts deploying their A32Ts on these routes. Why should this be unrealistic at all? Major routes, lots of traffic, huge business demand, lots of premium travellers. Could happen, but does not have to happen. But just tossing this idea or question (however this post was meant) around on this website, does not deserve your style of answers. Get a life...
 
a380787
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:42 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 29):

Some of you guys really should get away from the computer sometimes and stop trolling every thread. Whats so misleading about the topic? Or the OPs post at all? Why do you have to sound like total idiots and be so anal about how he used his words?

That's because the title has been edited before you saw it. The original title was "Transcon Coming to ORD" (or something very similar), which had 3 major flaws :

1. ORD-West Coast is NOT a transcon

2. The title implied premium/flagship type service, which was never rumored

3. The title had a definitive tone as opposed to a question/inquiry, implying it was a done deal.
 
civetfive
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:44 am

RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:48 pm

Quoting ben175 (Reply 22):

We don't have Rio Tinto and the like paying for those flights domestically. All but the most generous of travel policies in the US require economy bookings for domestic travel, even including client travel for banks and consulting firms (especially on sub-5 and sub-6 hour flights).

LAX-ORD sees occasional widebody service because:
1) it utilizes and/or rotates an aircraft
2) its needed to move a lot of people at a certain time
3) it offers a more competitive product for certain connecting flows. Important because both AA and UA hub in LAX and ORD (or whatever we want to call LAX)
 
jetwet1
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting Flyingclrs727 (Reply 4):
The distance between Chicago and either coast isn't far enough to justify premium transcon level of service.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
ORD to LAX is not long enough to match the JFK to LAX type service.

P, it's a 4 hour flight instead of a 5 hour flight.....Sorry folks, that extra hour means you don't get a flat bed, that's what saving an hour does, but hey, try LAS-JFK, that's 11 minutes shorter than LAX-JFK and they get the regular 1st product as well.

Now this IMHO is where VX really has an advantage, their first class seat is Superior to anything outside of the the trans con products.

Quoting CARST (Reply 29):
Some of you guys really should get away from the computer sometimes and stop trolling every thread. Whats so misleading about the topic?

To be fair, the title was changed, I figured out what he was asking but it was not a good thread title.

Quoting civetfive (Reply 31):
All but the most generous of travel policies in the US require economy bookings for domestic travel, even including client travel for banks and consulting firms (especially on sub-5 and sub-6 hour flights).

Not really, has it tightened up, sure, but there are still a lot of people being paid to sit up front.
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:55 pm

ORD-SFO can sometimes be 4 hours+

I would think that there is a market to justify ORD-SFO/LAX premium flights. Maybe not every single frequency, but the after 5PM routes leaving from ORD, definitely.

Also maybe a couple of the red eye flights from SFO/LAX to ORD? That's where the flat bed comes in handy.
 
a380787
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:10 pm

If there's any need for premium-type service on transcon, BOS and IAD should be much better candidates than ORD.

* DCA doesn't need any premium-type service since the very limited outside-perimeter route authorities ensure that incumbents can already command a pricing premium without any incentives to provide a better product.

Regarding ORD-SFO/LAX, the issue is that neither AA nor UA wants to disrupt the harmonious duopoly they possess now :

ORD-SFO
UA 16x, AA 7x, VX 3x

ORD-LAX
UA 12x, AA 10x, VX 2x, NK 2x, F9 1x

Both AA and UA has figured that even VX's superior domestic F product isn't command sufficient yield premiums over the 2 largest players, so there's little incentive to artificially worsen the CASM without any corresponding improvement in RASM.

The only airline capable of seriously disrupting the status quo would be DL entering ORD-LAX.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:31 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 16):
A "coma" or a "comma" ??

and THAT concludes today's Airliners English 101 lesson  

I understood the topic to mean premium service. It isn't a long flight, but Chicago has a lot of corporate headquarters so I would imagine an enhanced first class would sell - perhaps lie flat seats aren't necessary but a full meal, cutlery and all the rest perhaps
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3321
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:35 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 34):
Both AA and UA has figured that even VX's superior domestic F product isn't command sufficient yield premiums over the 2 largest players

A very rough and definitely not scientific check of flights shows VX actually being more in first than AA or UA on the LAX/SFO-ORD route, this of course is down to the limited number of seats VX has in the market compared to UA/AA, but I am sure there are some who pick VX just for the comfort.
 
a380787
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Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 36):

A very rough and definitely not scientific check of flights shows VX actually being more in first than AA or UA on the LAX/SFO-ORD route, this of course is down to the limited number of seats VX has in the market compared to UA/AA, but I am sure there are some who pick VX just for the comfort.

I meant to say *sufficient* premium. VX's F seat takes up a lot more space (approx 50%), so just on a per square foot worth of floor space on the plane, they need to fare 50% higher just to even come out even against the other 2.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:50 pm

I think you guys are overlooking one piece of important info.

CHI - LA or SF are not that massive markets on their own. For example CHI-LA O&D is only about 40% size of NYC-LA, and hardly as premium as what NYC generates.

The huge volume of flights is very much due fact that Chicago is a hub for 3 airline. Bulk of passengers onboard are not local enplanements but transfers.
So throwing premium heavy aircraft into a market is not something the market needs nor could really support. The airlines would basically be forcing away their bread and butter economy passengers on the segment as they offer less economy seats replaced by a premium cabin that is not really needed. It would be a double whammy of a mistake.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ckfred
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RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:57 pm

First, enough with the nitpicking about the grammar and language. When someone talks about transcon service, I think of AA's product on JFK-LAX and UA's product on EWR-LAX.

Second, let's remember who is booking J and F on New York to Los Angeles. On the east end, it's the big Wall Street banks and firms. On the west end, it's the studios, record companies, and TV networks (which also have offices and broadcast facilities in New York).

So, they are willing to pay extra to fly executives, entertainers, and the like in F and J.

Chicago doesn't have nearly the number of passengers who want or need a premium F or domestic J product.

A friend of mine who flies for AA tells me that JFK-LAX, and to a lesser extent, JFK-SFO, are among the very few domestic routes where people will double or triple book F seats. He's had flights where, a couple of hours before departure, F is showing full. But, 30 minutes before departure, people start getting upgraded to F, because of cancellations.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1777
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:00 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 34):
Both AA and UA has figured that even VX's superior domestic F product isn't command sufficient yield premiums over the 2 largest players, so there's little incentive to artificially worsen the CASM without any corresponding improvement in RASM.

The only airline capable of seriously disrupting the status quo would be DL entering ORD-LAX.

Certainly makes sense. The Big Three have two things VX don't IMO - truly global networks and FFPs (well maybe not DL) - so even with an inferior product their loyal flyers will stay loyal. I'm sure the US3's CEOs all know this.

Nice analysis of the ORD-LAX route above - very informative. Would be curious to see what it looks like with ORD-SNA in there two. AFAIK AA only flies ORD-SNA 2x/day, so not a huge impact. I don't think any of the other area airports (BUR, LGB, ONT) have nonstop service from ORD.
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: Premium Transcon Style Service At ORD?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:05 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 40):
Nice analysis of the ORD-LAX route above - very informative.

Thanks for the kind words =)

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 40):
AFAIK AA only flies ORD-SNA 2x/day, so not a huge impact.

Hmm ... for friday 8/12 i see 5x AA 3x UA for this route. And yes, none of the others have nonstop to ORD. MDW is a different story though.

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