Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 11

lightsaber · Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:06 am

Please continue discussion here from:

Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 10 (by KarelXWB Nov 23 2015 in Civil Aviation)#menu212

RWA380 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:47 am

From the tail end of the last thread:

From mtnwest1979:

Video showed as July1, 2015. Plane in video was a CR7, which seemed a bit much for OTH. CRJ was probably regular plane.

OK, that makes sense, since last summer was the only year it operated & from the look of things, it's not in this years summer schedule. I guess the financials didn't work out for the Hotels & Gold Course.

From bigfoot0503:

I don't believe that is accurate. The seasonal service offered into OTH from DEN was a CR7 and my understanding was that it was more or less to cater to golfers/visitors who desired another option into and out of OTH for the Bandon Dunes Golf Resort.

I think you're right it was a CR7, but as OTH sees only CR2's from SFO usually, that's a likely assumption. The flight was geared around in bound travelers coming to play & stay, it's a nice place & I could see spending a few days in that area, but not much more.

lhpdx · Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Interesting evaluation of PDX current market trend and future growth..Check it out......

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ts-smaller-market-footprint-255630

ANA787 · Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:04 pm

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 2):

Interesting evaluation of PDX current market trend and future growth..Check it out......

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ts-smaller-market-footprint-255630

Interesting article. Expect the trend of growth to continue at PDX.

Also, interestingly, according to the following forum the PDX-MCO market is now the largest unserved market in the US and is rumored to resume soon on AS.
25 Largest Unserved USA Markets (by enilria Feb 11 2016 in Civil Aviation)

Domestic (non-restricted airports)
#8 MCO-PDX
#14 SFO-TPA
#22 ORF-SAN
#23 LAX-SJU

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 89):

Quoting a380787 (Reply 10):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):#8 MCO-PDX

Let's see if WN or AS would be first to jump in here.

Already served by AS previously, and rumored to return in the not-too-distant future.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 32):
If AS weren't fighting DL in SEA I assume this route would return.

Again, already rumored to return.

lhpdx · Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:10 pm

Honestly, I'm looking forward seeing what AS does with it's PDX hub in 2016!!

bigfoot0503 · Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:21 pm

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 3):
Also, interestingly, according to the following forum the PDX-MCO market is now the largest unserved market in the US and is rumored to resume soon on AS.

I've often wondered why B6 hasn't opted to serve this route. With a considerable presence at MCO and connections to their Latin America routes I'm certain the route would be a success.

pdx · Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 3):
Domestic (non-restricted airports)
#8 MCO-PDX

Why was this route dropped years a go? Loads or aircraft availability?

Airnerd · Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:43 am

Quoting pdx (Reply 6):
Why was this route dropped years a go? Loads or aircraft availability?

I think it was cut in 2008 when the economy was falling apart and fuel was $130/barrel. That's tough on a leisure market like Orlando from a smaller city like Portland. I don't think it was an aircraft problem, though I do remember hearing that they had some range issues with the non-ER 739 on flights to MIA and MCO... this must have been on routes from SEA though, since I think the PDX flights were on 73Gs.

ramprat74 · Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:42 am

We were just told today that the UA and AS swap at PDX won't happen until Spring 2018 now. I have a feeling the recent QX announcement about replacing their Dash-8s and buying larger RJ's put a kink in the POP's new concourse design.

ANA787 · Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:50 am

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 8):
We were just told today that the UA and AS swap at PDX won't happen until Spring 2018 now. I have a feeling the recent QX announcement about replacing their Dash-8s and buying larger RJ's put a kink in the POP's new concourse design.

When was the swap originally intended to be?

pdx · Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:16 am

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 9):
Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 8):
We were just told today that the UA and AS swap at PDX won't happen until Spring 2018 now. I have a feeling the recent QX announcement about replacing their Dash-8s and buying larger RJ's put a kink in the POP's new concourse design.

When was the swap originally intended to be?

I think it was Fall of 2017. I thought about that too when I heard about the additional RJ's. That extension they're planning on building isn't going to cut it if PDX becomes an RJ hub!

lhpdx · Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:31 am

I'm wondering if they'll have to add a few more jetways to the E extension?

RWA380 · Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:09 am

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 8):
We were just told today that the UA and AS swap at PDX won't happen until Spring 2018 now. I have a feeling the recent QX announcement about replacing their Dash-8s and buying larger RJ's put a kink in the POP's new concourse design.

Thanks for the info rampart, what was the official reason given? Or was there no reasoning offered with what you have heard? I can not think of another reason. It makes perfect sense & it's a change happening before the fact, instead of 6 months after the fact, all in all a great chance for AAG to make PDX what it wants it to be for the next 20-30 years & take up more real estate at the Port for future expansions, which will continue at a solid pace.

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 11):
I'm wondering if they'll have to add a few more jetways to the E extension?

I think something will need to change, for those who have stated it before, kudos of a catch, I'm glad AS was able to commit to a type before the airfield was completed in that area. I'm going to say that PDX will likely be the city with the largest 175 presence for AAG, just my two cents.

pdx · Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:17 am

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 11):
I'm wondering if they'll have to add a few more jetways to the E extension?

I'd think so. I'm confused by the pics of the extension. Isn't it just for QX gates or are they including new jetway gates for AS too? 210 feet isn't very long! I thought it was just for QX's ground loading gates. If so, that only leaves 5 jetway gates on E. They're going to need quite a few D jetway gates if that's the case.

32andBelow · Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:21 am

Do the E175s need to be on bridges or can they take Q400 spots? Seating is the same as a Q400.

RWA380 · Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:04 am

Quoting pdx (Reply 13):
They're going to need quite a few D jetway gates if that's the case.

I though AS was taking every gate in D it could get. I thought D was going to be just HA, DL & AS (also serving all International arrivals) Do DE & FI leave from D? And where does Y4 operate from? The rest were going to B or C.

pdx · Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:19 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
I though AS was taking every gate in D it could get. I thought D was going to be just HA, DL & AS (also serving all International arrivals) Do DE & FI leave from D? And where does Y4 operate from? The rest were going to B or C.

I think you're right. It just seems like DL uses most of them. I read that the RJ's are hard to ground load? Yes, DE/FI/Y4 use the int'l gates at the end of D. I don't think they'll move.

intotheair · Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:19 am

EUG is hoping someone will build an airport hotel...

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/loc...es-of-reviving-hotel-plan.html.csp

Quote:

The airport has been trying to land a hotel since 2007.

Airport officials hoped to find a developer for the concept in 2013, but they never formally issued a bid request, airport director Tim Doll said.

Last summer they issed a request for proposals for a hotel, but didn’t receive a single one. Doll said he learned through follow-up conversations with hotel management firms that although they were interested in the project, the firms were too busy in the peak tourism season to submit bids.

An obvious upside for a hotel near the airport would the quick and easy access it offered to flights. But the airport is isolated, a 15-20 minute drive from the Eugene city center. There are few amenities or attractions in the airport vicinity. Plus, developers are already at work on a handful of new hotels in central Eugene.

Doll said he’s confident this bidding round will go better, with the economy improving, major track and field events lined up years down the road and a new state psychiatric hospital three miles north of the airport,

This just seems like a really silly idea. Yes, airport hotels have secondary uses, but they're mostly needed in places that are connection-heavy. I'm willing to bet EUG is almost 100% O&D. It's also not like it's that far away from any other hotels in town.

RWA380 · Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:42 am

Quoting intotheair (Reply 17):
This just seems like a really silly idea. Yes, airport hotels have secondary uses, but they're mostly needed in places that are connection-heavy. I'm willing to bet EUG is almost 100% O&D.

I think you'll find tat many people drive to EUG from places on the coast to East of the Cascades. EUG has the second largest number of flights commercially in the State & I bet many people would like the opportunity for a night pror (for early AM depatures) or arrival night (for later arrivals) then start fresh for the drive back to their hometown the next morning, I know people from all over Oregon who drive (mostly to Portland) & incorporate a hotel night on ne end or the other. Eugene does have a fairly large catchment area.

I guess my point is, a hotel like this would likely be serving those who drive from other parts of the State & fly out of Eugene. I'm sure their sights are set on a Best Western type property vs a Hyatt.

eugdjinn · Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:48 am

The only way to make an Airport hotel financially viable is to persuade the airlines that serve EUG to use it as the crew overnight hotel, and shift the ~$30-50,000 a month to that property. But with absolutely nothing in the area for crews to do, or eat, that isn't likely. The current crew hotel does a very nice job taking care of SkyWest's people and I think still has Horizon's contract as well. And it has plenty to offer. Without that steady income, there's very little chance of getting much more than a Motel 6 on the freeway.

[Edited 2016-02-13 02:10:18]

Wingtips56 · Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:17 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
I bet many people would like the opportunity for a night pror (for early AM depatures) or arrival night (for later arrivals) then start fresh for the drive back to their hometown the next morning, I know people from all over Oregon who drive (mostly to Portland) & incorporate a hotel night one end or the other.

I do that frequently - at Medford -- driving over from the coast and staying a night an an airport motel at both ends of the trip, as I usually have an early morning departure and late night return. I don't drive that mountain highway in the dark, especially after flying 24+ hours to return there, and the motel lets me leave my car in their lot for however long I'm gone at no extra charge. For a long enough trip, two nights stay and free parking is cheaper than $9/day in MFR's airport lot. Since I have my own car there, I can drive into town for dinner (and of course hit Costco on the way back out of town on my return). Yes, it would be different for an RON crew without wheels.

I may at some point need to do that over Eugene (to use American Eagle on a restricted ticket if I can't include a connection on AS), so I have looked for an airport hotel at EUG, surprised to see none. I've not been out there, but it looks like the airport is out in the boonies, far from any services. Staying out on I-5 without a Park & Fly deal with a shuttle wouldn't work, and parking at EUG for a long trip is expensive. But in considering the RON crews, an airport hotel would need to have a restaurant at minimum.

RWA380 · Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:25 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 20):
I do that frequently - at Medford -- driving over from the coast and staying a night an an airport motel at both ends of the trip, as I usually have an early morning departure and late night return. I don't drive that mountain highway in the dark, especially after flying 24+ hours to return there, and the motel lets me leave my car in their lot for however long I'm gone at no extra charge.

I don't blame you, 199 is a challenge in the day time & one of the darkest roads at night.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 20):
Yes, it would be different for an RON crew without wheels

I can not imagine RON crews would make a business for any one hotel as many hotel chains & airlines have agreements, but the Eugene Hilton would be upset.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 20):
I've not been out there, but it looks like the airport is out in the boonies,

I always wondered why there were zero services out near the airport in Eugene, but I also haven't been there in a long time.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 20):
But in considering the RON crews, an airport hotel would need to have a restaurant at minimum.

I think airline crews stay at properties without restaurants, because the one QX uses in Redmond Oregon doesn't have a restaurant.

lhpdx · Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:45 am

Quite informative about Portland past, present and future...Enjoy the journey........

http://www.kgw.com/news/special-repo...s-at-the-port-of-portland/41841220

pdx · Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:45 am

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 22):
Quite informative about Portland past, present and future...Enjoy the journey........

http://www.kgw.com/news/special-repo...41220

OMG! Am I seeing this correct? Are they changing the security checkpoints so the Oregon Marketplace (shops, restaurants, and windows now pre-security) will become post-security? Most airports today are modeled this way, but I love PDX because they're not! That means us (aviation enthusiasts) won't be able to get past the ticket counters without a ticket! That would be a HUGE disappointment for me! Looks like other changes too that we don't know about.....other than the AS/UA switch which we do know about!

mtnwest1979 · Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:14 am

Quoting pdx (Reply 23):
OMG! Am I seeing this correct?

I believe so IIRC. Be more akin to MSP and such.
I guess they figure pax come in and want to get thru security fast then sit and relax a bit.
If they bypass all of the shops as is now, no money to stores etc. If after they get thru, they may spend more money and time in the places.
I agree that I like it as it is now. So many places have bare minimum choices pre-security for everyone.

RWA380 · Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting pdx (Reply 23):

OMG! Am I seeing this correct? Are they changing the security checkpoints so the Oregon Marketplace (shops, restaurants, and windows now pre-security) will become post-security?

I'm going to view the preview video later, but I sure hope what you have indicated doesn't happen. First of all, where in the heck will the lines go when security checkpoints backup, as they do everyday during peak hours. The area with the Marketplace is perfect for queued up people to wait. If what you are saying may happen, the ticket counter area will be butts to nuts all the time, or there will be lines out the door onto the loading & unloading area, I think they would need to resolve that before moving where security points are currently.

Quoting pdx (Reply 23):
Most airports today are modeled this way, but I love PDX because they're not! That means us (aviation enthusiasts) won't be able to get past the ticket counters without a ticket!

From a spotters perspective, yes it sucks, from one pf the videos I saw the dining room where one dined & watched ramp operations (how sweet is that?). When I was a young adolescent PDX has a viewing room on a second floor above what is now the food court in the Marketplace. A small but totally windowed room, that one could watch planes from. It seems they are trying to keep us spotters from having a hobby or being able to enjoy ourselves.

From a security standpoint, yes this is a sign of the times, it makes perfect sense. Keep as many people out of an airport as you can, thus only allowing those who work there, or have business to conduct to be in the terminal

Quoting pdx (Reply 23):
That would be a HUGE disappointment for me! Looks like other changes too that we don't know about.....other than the AS/UA switch which we do know about!

Portland used to be way more spotter friendly than now, like most every airport in the world. Terrorism is ruining spotting for the honest enthusiasts.

lhpdx · Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:35 am

Well, at least we still have the 7th floor of the garage.........

pdx · Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:17 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 24):
I believe so IIRC. Be more akin to MSP and such.
I guess they figure pax come in and want to get thru security fast then sit and relax a bit.
If they bypass all of the shops as is now, no money to stores etc. If after they get thru, they may spend more money and time in the places.
I agree that I like it as it is now. So many places have bare minimum choices pre-security for everyone.

You're right, but I sure wish they wouldn't change it.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 25):
I'm going to view the preview video later, but I sure hope what you have indicated doesn't happen. First of all, where in the heck will the lines go when security checkpoints backup, as they do everyday during peak hours. The area with the Marketplace is perfect for queued up people to wait. If what you are saying may happen, the ticket counter area will be butts to nuts all the time, or there will be lines out the door onto the loading & unloading area, I think they would need to resolve that before moving where security points are currently.

Watch the video when you can. It doesn't explain anything, but I'd say some major construction would be required.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 25):
From a spotters perspective, yes it sucks, from one pf the videos I saw the dining room where one dined & watched ramp operations (how sweet is that?). When I was a young adolescent PDX has a viewing room on a second floor above what is now the food court in the Marketplace. A small but totally windowed room, that one could watch planes from. It seems they are trying to keep us spotters from having a hobby or being able to enjoy ourselves.

Yep, I remember the observation deck...and the dining room and coffee shop...before ANY other food venues! What has happened to our hobby is very, very sad. I feel like I have to look around before I take a picture!

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 26):
Well, at least we still have the 7th floor of the garage.........

Thank God, but 2 things: I can't tell you how many times I went to watch planes and it was closed! And no, it wasn't full! Other thing is that the Port of Portland offices ruined the approach view to 28R!

ramprat74 · Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:34 am

The construction has already started on the concourse A-B-C new exit. The Brookstone was closed in the south atrium and they are building the new exit into the south ticket lobby.

They are building new restrooms next to D2 and after they are completed, they will close the ones in the north atrium. That spot will become the new exit for the D-E concourses.

lhpdx · Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:39 am

Ramprat74 do you know why the completion date for the extension of concourse E has been pushed back to 2018 instead of 2017?

flyoregon · Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:50 pm

I don't know what they're planning and the graphic in the video is a little difficult to get a full picture, but I would strongly suggest contacting the PoP on this to rethink it. It's stupid. I know that they get more than just passengers shopping and dining in the Oregon market. I've been to lunch or dinner for business meet and greets countless times as it's a convenient meeting point. I think it would be really stupid of them plus it would crowd the ticketing areas with security people if they expect 20mm people by the end of 2020.

Airnerd · Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:16 am

I think the main thing the graphic in the video regarding the security changes is trying to convey is the separation of the flow of exiting passengers from those trying to get in. They will be creating separate exits from the security areas directly to the ticketing areas. This will improve the flow considerably. While it does look like the security areas are moved inward towards the center of the Oregon Market, it probably remains to be seen how much things will need to change in that area. At any rate, the way I interpreted the video was that the big change coming to security are the new separate exits.

cschleic · Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:47 am

Quoting pdx (Reply 27):
I can't tell you how many times I went to watch planes and it was closed! And no, it wasn't full! Other thing is that the Port of Portland offices ruined the approach view to 28R!

Even if it's closed to cars, you can still walk up there, can't you? I think I've done that in the past.

pdx · Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:11 am

Quoting cschleic (Reply 32):

Even if it's closed to cars, you can still walk up there, can't you? I think I've done that in the past.

Yes, you can. I guess I was thinking of the times it was raining, cold, or the east wind was blowing and I wanted to watch from my car!

Airnerd · Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:21 pm

The KGW history piece was cool. Not to be outdone, the Oregonian had to respond.

http://www.oregonlive.com/history/20..._125_ph.html#incart_river_home_pop

lhpdx · Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:18 pm

It looks like they revealed their new adds at a conference:

https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/700078643347857408

BWI-SMF
FLL-NAS
BUR-PDX
ONT-PDX
MKE-SAN
CLT-BNA
LAX-PIT

Interesting on the PDX adds.

lhpdx · Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:26 pm

Looks like WN is letting AS know that they too can play in their backyard as well........

Airnerd · Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:01 am

Competition is definitely welcome on PDX-BUR. If your destination is downtown LA, or really anywhere in the north half of that megalopolis, BUR is so much easier than LAX.

lhpdx · Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:47 pm

Concourse C is full of AS tails today....I

Airnerd · Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:39 pm

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/...reached_thu.html#incart_river_home

Looks like we'll see if DL was bluffing about pulling the PDX-NRT flights if HND opened only partially to US carriers. Maybe the DL NRT hub (inherited from NWA) is toast?

lhpdx · Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:45 pm

The Port of Portland seriously need to start focusing on JAL or ANA....

ANA787 · Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:11 pm

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 40):

You might try writing an email or tweeting a message to these carriers, insisting they open a nonstop flight to Portland.

dc10lover · Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:18 pm

airfarewatchdog ‏@airfarewatchdog 17m17 minutes ago

New route this fall, Portland PDX/Burbank CA $69 each way nonstop

bigfoot0503 · Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:33 pm

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 40):
The Port of Portland seriously need to start focusing on JAL or ANA....

As much as I agree with your statement, as a consumer who has utilized the DL PDX-NRT n/s flights I really have to advocate for Delta. Political manuevering and posturing aside the statements made by Delta are perhaps an attempt by them to "work" the system...case in point the media articles recently published as to discontinuing not only the PDX-NRT route but also the MSP-NRT route. I truly believe that the n/s link to Japan from PDX is important to our economy in Oregon and SW Washington. In addition the historical significance of the PDX-NRT route is noteworthy...as most know we are not talking about a route that was recently added...indeed the origins of the route extend back 20+ years ago.

I would certainly hope that as our economy continues its' robust growth and as more people relocate to Oregon & SW Washington that at some point another air carrier will see fit to add service to an additional market in Asia. It is truly exciting and encouraging to see the continual addtion of more flights out of PDX. Equally as exciting are the remarkable changes that will soon start taking place as the Port of Portland enhances and adds more space to the terminal/gate facilities at PDX.

ANA787 · Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:08 pm

Oregon tourism market is booming thanks to the many new flights being added.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...html#incart_river_mobileshort_home

lhpdx · Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:46 pm

Thanks for sharing ANA!! That explains why there's a lot of hotel construction proposed/ or currently under way in the Portland area..This city is really booming......

lhpdx · Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:02 am

Does AS plan to expand more out of PDX this year in addition to the all ready announced routes?

lhpdx · Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:05 am

http://www.kgw.com/money/business/to...d-growing-nears-5-billion/47318484

pdxswa · Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:13 am

CSN 329 sits on the UPS ramp after having arrived earlier in the day. It WX diverted from CYVR unable to get into KSEA also. Pilots had timed out and there was a MX issue that further added to the problems. It finally left after being here for 14 hours.

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Click here for bigger photo!

twincommander · Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:23 pm

Quoting pdxswa (Reply 48):
CSN 329

I hear the MX issue was quite the goat rope...

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