Kalitta To Diversify Fleet With 767s

SpaceshipDC10 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:05 pm

In January I was wondering why K4 had acquired some 767-300s. According to Connie Kalitta, the company will use those to diversify its fleet and also test the water on the domestic market. Five or six more could be acquired in the near future.

http://aircargoworld.com/kalitta-to-diversify-with-767-freighters/

Kalitta Air B767 - What For? (by SpaceshipDC10 Jan 14 2016 in Civil Aviation)

airtran737 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:09 pm

Too bad he can't acquire pilots to fly them...or his other aircraft.

The 767 is a good thing for K4, but they have tremendous staffing issues. They were over 50 pilots short on the 400's going into peak.

[Edited 2016-02-10 10:10:53]

sk736 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:19 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
They were over 50 pilots short on the 400's going into peak.

Why's that? Are they low payers?

airtran737 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting sk736 (Reply 2):
Why's that? Are they low payers?

As compared to the rest of the industry, very much so. They have also been in contract negotiations for over 6 years with no end in sight. The pilots voted by over 93% to authorize a strike. Kalitta is unfortunately in need of a drastic culture change in order to attract talent, and to ensure their longterm longevity.

SpaceshipDC10 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 3):
They have also been in contract negotiations for over 6 years with no end in sight. The pilots voted by over 93% to authorize a strike.

No wonder they are short on staff.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 3):
Kalitta is unfortunately in need of a drastic culture change in order to attract talent, and to ensure their longterm longevity.

Does it mean the boss to leave?

airtran737 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:05 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 4):

Does it mean the boss to leave?

Connie won't leave unless it's in a 6' wooden box.

RobK · Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:09 pm

I think flyDTW1992 flies for them as he always pops up in other threads about CKS so maybe he has some insight.

airtran737 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:44 pm

The people who run K4 have an old school mentality. You won't see any other airline where the DO or CP comes in and says "I'm gonna screw you, you're going to screw me, let's hope it comes out even". That mentality is what has allowed them to be successful in the past, but it is also hindering them from moving on in the future. There's a reason that guys are going to K4, getting some heavy time and moving on to Atlas or even the legacy carriers. K4 has a crappy contract, and needs to modernize it's culture in order to attract and keep talent.

SpaceshipDC10 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:24 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 7):
K4 has a crappy contract, and needs to modernize it's culture in order to attract and keep talent.

The question is will it ever happen?

tb727 · Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:35 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 4):
Does it mean the boss to leave?

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 5):
Connie won't leave unless it's in a 6' wooden box.

Isn't that the truth! He's a stubborn old businessman.

The culture there is very old school. It worked in the 70's and 80's and he did very well but it's not how it works today. I worked there for 15 years at small and medium Kalitta under Doug. Doug is a nice guy but is no Connie, he's just plain old cheap. He also has himself surround by the wrong people going towards taking over K4.

I thought it was going to be harder to leave when I did but it's a dumpster fire and I wish the best of luck to them. You can't keep treating everyone like crap and allowing your GM and other managers to do the same and not expect it all to fall apart in your hands. It could be a really good place to work with a few changes but it's not gonna happen.

It was quite the place in the heyday of freight but those days are over. Rules are there for a reason and you doing it your way and just paying the fine to the FAA instead of doing it right doesn't fly anymore.

LAX772LR · Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:57 am

Hmm, gonna suck when an engine randomly falls off one of those.

airtran737 · Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:20 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 8):
The question is will it ever happen?

It has to or K4 won't exist. Airplanes don't make money if they aren't in the air, and Connie can't keep them in the air if he can't get people to show up for class. Having 4 of 10 show up for class at a regional is common, but to have those numbers at a ''career airline'' just won't work. In order for K4 to be around in 5 years, they need to settle this thing and move the company forward.

flyDTW1992 · Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:27 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 6):
I think flyDTW1992 flies for them as he always pops up in other threads about CKS so maybe he has some insight.

Well, I'm not a pilot, but...

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 11):
It has to or K4 won't exist. Airplanes don't make money if they aren't in the air, and Connie can't keep them in the air if he can't get people to show up for class. Having 4 of 10 show up for class at a regional is common, but to have those numbers at a ''career airline'' just won't work. In order for K4 to be around in 5 years, they need to settle this thing and move the company forward.

Yep. The folks at the top have big plans for the 767 from what we can tell in the rank and file. Have to believe that they they're very aware that if they want these things to carry the company into the future they're gonna need a quality pilot contract and the adequate staffing that comes with it.

Especially competing with the merged Atlas-Southern Air moving forward.

DiamondFlyer · Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:29 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 7):
The people who run K4 have an old school mentality. You won't see any other airline where the DO or CP comes in and says "I'm gonna screw you, you're going to screw me, let's hope it comes out even". That mentality is what has allowed them to be successful in the past, but it is also hindering them from moving on in the future. There's a reason that guys are going to K4, getting some heavy time and moving on to Atlas or even the legacy carriers. K4 has a crappy contract, and needs to modernize it's culture in order to attract and keep talent.

That statement applies to any of the 121 supplemental carriers based in YIP or PTK these days. They don't understand that the market has changed and can't figure out why they can't get people to show up.

-DiamondFlyer

SpaceshipDC10 · Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:02 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 11):
Airplanes don't make money if they aren't in the air, and Connie can't keep them in the air if he can't get people to show up for class.

You are right, however some people are too stubborn or blind to see/accept what has to be done in order to move forward.

tb727 · Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:06 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 13):
That statement applies to any of the 121 supplemental carriers based in YIP or PTK these days. They don't understand that the market has changed and can't figure out why they can't get people to show up.

K4 has been attending the big pilot job fairs including the Aerocrew Solutions ones and I almost laughed when I saw them there. I was not even 10 feet from K4's lonely chief pilot doing my meet and greet with a manager for the company that hired me a month later just wondering why they thought they were going to be getting anyone. I had 300 people behind me in line while they just sat there talking to someone once in a while.

KBJCpilot · Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:45 pm

What are their requirements for a new pilot? Surely they must require 1,000 hrs, plus the usual endorsements.

airtran737 · Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:07 pm

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 16):
What are their requirements for a new pilot? Surely they must require 1,000 hrs, plus the usual endorsements.

FAA Multi-Engine Airline Transport Certificate or Restricted Multi-Engine Airline Pilot Certificate
2500 + hours of total time (4,000 preferred)
500 hours turbo-jet or 1500 hours and Graduate of a US Military Training Program and SIC/PIC Type Rating in a Turbojet Aircraft
Current FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate
FCC Radio License
No restrictions on International Travel
Current US Passport
Ability to pass a 10-year security background check and pre-employment Drug and Alcohol test

Natflyer · Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:36 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):

My first thought was, did they find some really really old ones to fit in?

DTWPurserBoy · Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:37 pm

Has Kalitta ever ventured into the passenger market? The 767ER would be an excellent passenger charter aircraft.

tb727 · Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:48 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 19):
Has Kalitta ever ventured into the passenger market? The 767ER would be an excellent passenger charter aircraft.

Yes back in the day they did do pax charter. They used 747's and DC-8's. MGM Grand's DC-8's were bought at one point. The 747's did mostly charter work for Hajj flights.

The Nomad 727, which you are probably familiar with, was purchased when they went out of business but the airplane saw no action and is rotting away up in OSC. They "didn't want to deal with Flight Attendants" is what I heard when we asked if we could do any pax stuff in it. It was also part 125 and had to be converted to a part 121 maintenance program.

Falcon Flyer · Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:06 pm

Kalitta/AIA has also used the L1011 for passenger flights in the past.

roseflyer · Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:20 pm

767 freighters seem to be a hot commodity now. Everyone seems to want them.

SpaceshipDC10 · Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:58 pm

Quoting Falcon Flyer (Reply 21):
Kalitta/AIA has also used the L1011 for passenger flights in the past.

They had two, indeed.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 20):
The 747's did mostly charter work for Hajj flights.

http://flic.kr/p/E2b6b6

http://flic.kr/p/DPprEW

Chaostheory · Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:16 am

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 22):
767 freighters seem to be a hot commodity now. Everyone seems to want them.

What's not to like?

Leases are cheap and there are plenty of 767-300s in the used market thanks to Transaero, AA, ANZ etc. Couple that with good range and low fuel and maintenance costs, it's hard to fault it. Bedek has recently had to turn some potential 767 cargo conversion customers away because they can't cope with demand. The lease costs of a newish A332F are $750k/month which is more than double the lease of a used 763. That's a premium to pay for only 1500cu ft of additional volume. The A332F only works at longer range or if you carry high density freight which makes use of its higher payload.

flyDTW1992 · Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:06 am

I think they had about 6 people show up for class last week. Don't know how many ha v

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 19):
Has Kalitta ever ventured into the passenger market? The 767ER would be an excellent passenger charter aircraft.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 20):
The Nomad 727, which you are probably familiar with, was purchased when they went out of business but the airplane saw no action and is rotting away up in OSC. They "didn't want to deal with Flight Attendants" is what I heard when we asked if we could do any pax stuff in it. It was also part 125 and had to be converted to a part 121 maintenance program.

My thoughts on that have been if K4 really wanted to get back into pax operations, they'd look to acquire/merge with Omni. All of Omni's heavy MX is already done by Kalitta, mx and operations will be 767-300ER qualified soon. Would just need to tack on the 777s.

bahadir · Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:16 pm

Their pay is extremely low for spending 20 days on the road in places like Dubai, Hong Kong, etc.

Aquila3 · Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:29 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 26):
Their pay is extremely low for spending 20 days on the road in places like Dubai, Hong Kong, etc.

Sorry , but what's wrong with these places?
I mean I have been in much worse places, in Asia or in Europe as well.

ec99 · Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:44 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 27):
Sorry , but what's wrong with these places?

Bahadir can correct me if I am wrong but my assumption is that people want more pay to be away from home so much.

I've worked places where people were asked to spend a lot of time in Paris and Berlin. As great as those cities are, most employees quickly got tired of being away from home/family for 100+ nights a year

nws2002 · Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:49 pm

Quoting ec99 (Reply 28):
Bahadir can correct me if I am wrong but my assumption is that people want more pay to be away from home so much.

I've worked places where people were asked to spend a lot of time in Paris and Berlin. As great as those cities are, most employees quickly got tired of being away from home/family for 100+ nights a year

I think this is very true. One crappy hotel room starts to look just like any other when you are on minimum rest overnights.

Aquila3 · Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:55 pm

Quoting ec99 (Reply 28):

I understand your point, just maybe the example you picked where a little misleading for people like me that are not insider in Kalitta operation. Not speaking about Paris or (nowadays) Berlin, two places that, if you do not like, probably is better you look for a quieter job in your neighbouround. So it must be a problem of salary more than places.

bahadir · Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:06 am

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 30):

I understand your point, just maybe the example you picked where a little misleading for people like me that are not insider in Kalitta operation. Not speaking about Paris or (nowadays) Berlin, two places that, if you do not like, probably is better you look for a quieter job in your neighbouround. So it must be a problem of salary more than places.

It is the problem with the salary and the places that they stay. Kalitta has a major base in HKG.. add places like Liege, Amsterdam, Germany , Dubai , your 3600 / month before taxes doesn't take you too far. Yes , you get per diem but that makes a just a little dent in those expensive places..

Chi che non vola, non capisce come e sopravvivere nel mondo.

Aquila3 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:22 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 31):

Ah, sorry , now I get it.
Those are indeed expensive places, not bad places. Ageed that 3600 USD brutto are not much to play with.

airtran737 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:50 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 26):

Their pay is abysmal compared to their counterparts at Atlas and other airlines. The management of K4 is so bullheaded that the only way that anything is going to get done is for the pilots to walk out and go on strike.

dlramp4life · Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:50 am

It sounds like they want to get into the Amazon business with ABX.

blueflyer · Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:05 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 31):
3600 / month before taxes doesn't take you too far.

That's starting salary for FO, right? A 777 right-seater with no seniority makes more than that at Southern!

bahadir · Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:04 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 35):
That's starting salary for FO, right? A 777 right-seater with no seniority makes more than that at Southern!

Yes, also let's not forget about the upgrade times in Southern.

airtran737 · Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:01 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 35):
That's starting salary for FO, right? A 777 right-seater with no seniority makes more than that at Southern!

It's a little more, but still not enough. Kalitta only pays you $600/week until you complete IOE. So if the training department is backed up, you basically make first year regional F/O pay until you get through. Brutal.

hkcanadaexpat · Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:39 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 38):

This is the second frame to be used for spare parts.
A

wjcandee · Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:01 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 34):

It sounds like they want to get into the Amazon business with ABX.

Well...the Amazon test ends in March, unless Amazon extends or revamps it.

flyDTW1992 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:48 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 40):
Well...the Amazon test ends in March, unless Amazon extends or revamps it.

I think expand (greatly) is indeed the direction things are moving in.

RobK · Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:04 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 31):
3600 / month before taxes doesn't take you too far.

$3600 per month pre-tax?? You can't be serious man! Surely a typo??

bahadir · Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:56 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 42):
$3600 per month pre-tax?? You can't be serious man! Surely a typo??

It is not.. and don't call me Shirley :P

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net