Page 1 of 1

Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:45 pm
by Flyawa
KPVU has been restricted due to fog for several days. Very frustrating for passengers on Allegiant 132 from Mesa AZ on Thursday 11Feb. They circled Provo 7 times at 10,000 ft, waiting to shoot an approach, then diverted back to Mesa instead of SLC, for a total flight time of 2hr 49min. Why didn't they land at SLC?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20160211/2315Z/KIWA/KPVU

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:49 pm
by longhauler
Quoting flyawa (Thread starter):
Why didn't they land at SLC?

I am not saying this is the case in this instance, but ... if an airline diverts and/or stops enroute, then the airline is reponsible for the passenges, (hotel, meals, etc).

If, for weather reasons you return to the point of departure (or don't depart at all), then the airline is not responsible for the passengers.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:56 pm
by Q
Why don't plane stop at Odgen UT? Allegiant has crews in there! What's wrong with management staff or pilots was thinking of this? Waste of fuel and waste of time passengers divert flight nightmare. That's make no sense at all.


Q

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:34 pm
by COERJ145
It could have been that any of the nearby airports were not legal alternate airports or OpsSpecs wise, or ground support was not at any of those stations. Though it is a bit odd that they would return to IWA instead of trying GJT or something further.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:43 pm
by PlanesNTrains
Quoting flyawa (Thread starter):
Why didn't they land at SLC?

Why is it even an issue? I'm starting to expect to see a thread every time the toilet doesn't flush right on one of their planes.

Quoting Q (Reply 2):
Why don't plane stop at Odgen UT?

Whose to say that that was the best option? Returning to the point of origin wasn't all that far, and there might have been more options for them than going to Ogden where NONE of them were expecting to go, had family waiting, etc.

Quoting Q (Reply 2):
That's make no sense at all.

Of course it does. Many times we see here where flights divert much further away than "makes sense", but that's because it makes sense to the people making the decision. Crews, support staff, etc etc - plenty of reasons, albeit less "convenient", to divert further away.

-Dave

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:54 pm
by FATFlyer
Quoting Q (Reply 2):
Why don't plane stop at Odgen UT?

Allegiant only flies to Ogden on Monday and Friday, no one else flies scheduled service to the airport. On a Thursday (like this flight day) Ogden might not have anyone to work an Allegiant flight.

Additionally what were the conditions at Ogden, perhaps they also were having visibility problems at the same time. I do know Ogden had fog problems earlier in the week.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:25 pm
by LittleFokker
If the diversion is due to weather, as long as the flight has sufficient fuel, any legal airport is fair game to divert to. Bad weather does not create an emergency necessitating nearest suitable airport, only minimum fuel does. If they had the fuel, CLE would have been okay to divert to.

If fog has been a problem the last three days, a big question to ask is "was the flight legal to launch in the first place (did the forecast project at least legal landing minimums or planned with proper legal contingencies for weather being below minimums)?" I'm only speculating, as I don't have access to historical forecasts or Allegiant's ops specs. This is the bigger issue to me than choice of diversion airport.

[Edited 2016-02-14 16:19:15]

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:27 pm
by 32andBelow
Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
I am not saying this is the case in this instance, but ... if an airline diverts and/or stops enroute, then the airline is reponsible for the passenges, (hotel, meals, etc).

It's ALWAYS better to go back to the origin if possible. There at least half the people are home. If you go to a city c then everyone is in the wrong spot.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:00 am
by longhauler
Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 7):
There at least half the people are home.

I am going to guess that on an Allegiant flight from Mesa to Provo, far less then half are at "home". In fact, I would be surprised if any of the passengers were originating in Mesa.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:01 am
by N747PE
Sounds like a Cat 3 approach might have been required at SLC. I don't know if Allegiant planes and pilots can do Cat 3. IWA might have been the best option for them

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:20 am
by 32andBelow
Quoting longhauler (Reply 8):
I am going to guess that on an Allegiant flight from Mesa to Provo, far less then half are at "home". In fact, I would be surprised if any of the passengers were originating in Mesa.

That was in general. I will be you money that some people live at the departure point. I will bet you none live in a third city off the route. That's like saying there is no Hawaiians on HNL-ANC on AS which is definitely not true.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:25 am
by longhauler
Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 10):
That was in general. I will be you money that some people live at the departure point.

It's more a question of whether Provo being a common "destination" airport as opposed to Mesa being a common "departure" airport. While I am not saying it doesn't happen, Allegiant has built it's business model around flying vacationers from remote poorly served airports like Provo to vacation destinations like Mesa. So I am going to guess that 99% of its passengers on such a route reside in Provo and not Mesa.

Regardless, either way, by bringing them back to Mesa due to weather conditions, Allegiant is not legally responsible for the passengers.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 10):
That's like saying there are no Hawaiians on HNL-ANC on AS which is definitely not true.

It is not even remotely like that, as I would consider ANC to be a much more common destination than Provo. In fact, I have flown many flights to ANC with vacationers aboard, and until this message string thought that Provo was only in the T&C.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:39 am
by rbavfan
Why would you say they diverted? they returned to the airport they originated from. Thats a return, not a divert.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:58 am
by FATFlyer
Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):

It's more a question of whether Provo being a common "destination" airport as opposed to Mesa being a common "departure" airport. While I am not saying it doesn't happen, Allegiant has built it's business model around flying vacationers from remote poorly served airports like Provo to vacation destinations like Mesa. So I am going to guess that 99% of its passengers on such a route reside in Provo and not Mesa.

Allegiant has quite a bit of reverse traffic from Arizona. Much of it is VFR in a mix of retirees as well as younger families that have moved to the Phoenix area.

Its been a while since I have seen a number in a presentation and I don't know the current reverse traffic level to Provo. But back in 2009 Allegiant said they were seeing 30% reverse traffic out of Phoenix.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...10465909064374/g334291mm03i014.gif

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:20 am
by wn676
Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13):
Allegiant has quite a bit of reverse traffic from Arizona. Much of it is VFR in a mix of retirees as well as younger families that have moved to the Phoenix area.

Its been a while since I have seen a number in a presentation and I don't know the current reverse traffic level to Provo. But back in 2009 Allegiant said they were seeing 30% reverse traffic out of Phoenix.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...10465909064374/g334291mm03i014.gif

At the last two companies I worked for, they used G4 quite extensively for business-related travel out of IWA to MT, OR, and points in the Midwest. Granted it barely registers a blip in their traffic, but they were invaluable in retaining clients in those communities.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:49 am
by mayor
I can remember having those days at SLC.........one time we had 33 straight days with an inversion. Didn't help when some of the flight crews could only land in high minimums. Don't know why they were scheduled that way, considering the weather patterns at the time. Takeoff wasn't the problem.......you'd pop out of the crap at about 1000 ft or so, but landing was another story. One time they landed, but couldn't find the terminal. We had to find them over between A & B concourse and hook them up to the 727 and pull them over to D-1. Not a fun time.



This IS about the prime time for inversions in the SLC valley. It IS possible that Ogden was having the same problems with fog, ruling it out for diversions. At the time I was there, Provo wasn't a diversion point. Hill AFB is no good either as I don't believe that have an ILS system.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:21 pm
by SLCLAXKIXKHH
The fog has been quite bad here this last week. I work in Provo, so I've had to drive in it each day.    Having the airport right next to the lake makes it more susceptible to fog. The fog is usually gone between 11:00 AM and 5:00 PM, but I've occasionally seen it around during those times.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:36 pm
by mayor
Quoting SLCLAXKIXKHH (Reply 16):
The fog is usually gone between 11:00 AM and 5:00 PM, but I've occasionally seen it around during those times.

You're lucky that the fog is actually lifting for a short time during the day. As I mentioned, sometimes it wouldn't lift for DAYS.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:12 am
by toltommy
Quoting Q (Reply 2):
Why don't plane stop at Odgen UT? Allegiant has crews in there! What's wrong with management staff or pilots was thinking of this? Waste of fuel and waste of time passengers divert flight nightmare. That's make no sense at all.

1. No, Allegiant doe not have "crews in there". They fly to the city twice a week, the crews turn and go with the plane. IIRC, most G4 crews do not overnight, the return to base daily. They certainly wouldn't be on a multiple day layover.

2. Waste of fuel? trust me, fuel is cheaper than dropping in someplace where you don't serve, and have no ground handler. The cost will still be significant, and since G4 only flies to Ogden twice a week, it's doubtful their ground handler was on site anyway. Imagine going to SLC, where they have no service. Arranging ground transport will take longer that you realize, because the bus/taxi/transportation company wants to make sure they are getting paid as well. Then the crew times out in a city the airline doesn't serve. How do you get the plane out? Buy revenue seats for your crew to deadhead, that's how. No ground handler means no vouchers, no solid info, frustrated customers.

3. Heaven forbid your plane goes tech after landing in a city which you have no agreements or vendors. The total ocst of the diversion can become huge. And guess what? your passengers still are not in Provo.

4. Heading back to IWA made total sense in this case. You need to take your passenger hat off, and put your manager hat on.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:24 am
by Sean-SAN-
Allegiant does not do cat 2/3 approaches.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:38 pm
by mayor
Quoting toltommy (Reply 18):
4. Heading back to IWA made total sense in this case. You need to take your passenger hat off, and put your manager hat on.

Not sure if this has changed, but flight control at DL (now OCC) used to have a list of possible diversion stations and the equipment and services on site.

RE: Provo Fog Diverts Allegiant Back To Mesa

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:37 pm
by wn676
Quoting mayor (Reply 20):

Not sure if this has changed, but flight control at DL (now OCC) used to have a list of possible diversion stations and the equipment and services on site.

Pretty sure that's a standard document to maintain at any airline. Saw it at a carrier I used to work for too.