Folks,

Which Airline?

Lots of buzz amongst the gringo community in San Carlos, Sonora, Mexico over an article that appeared in the Arizona Star last week about airline service between Phoenix, AZ, USA (PHX) and Guaymas, Sonora, Mex (GYM) as well as Tucson, AZ, USA (TUS) and Guaymas, Sonora, Mex (GYM).

For reference, here is the article:
http://m.tucson.com/news/local/artic...=share&id=201408&mobile_touch=true

For amusement, here are the post on a popular forum in San Carlos (look for posts after Feb 1):
http://forum.sancarlosmexico.com/forum1/14673-1.html

Details are the airline will use a CRJ200. The flights are scheduled for 4 times a week. The flights will originate in PHX and fly to GYM. Then they will fly from GYM on to TUS. Then it will fly from TUS back to GYM. Then it will fly from GYM back to PHX.

So, PHX is the home base for this flight. The flight time is about 55mins. So with a reasonable turn around time at each leg, we are talking about an 8 hour day for a crew of 4 (two pilots, two flight attendents).

Cost is estimated to be about $400 round trip. A little pricey for such a short international flight. However, it spares you many hours of driving, several tolls, a Mexican military checkpoint and the USA/MEX border crossing.

Guaymas AIrport is a very short distance from the Maquilas (factories), San Carlos beaches / hotels / restaurants and Guaymas (moderately sized port city of 150k)

I don't know the airline, but it shouldn't be too hard to find out which Airline is requesting the ONLY international flight into Tucson International Airport (TUS).

OK, so how do I find out who has applied for this route? The announcement won't be made until March or April, but the article states that all of the permits have been granted in both countries.

I'm excited. I lived for 7 1/2 years in SanCarlos/Guaymas and took the flights a few times (to PHX, not TUS) in order to respond to an emergency at a client's site in upstate NY. It was very convenient and the clients didn't blink about the costs of the airfare. I suspect it is the same for the many multinational corporations in Hermosillo, Guaymas and Empalme... Perhaps even as far south as Obregon (1 1/4 hrs from Guaymas).

[Edited 2016-02-15 13:58:00]

[Edited 2016-02-15 14:11:35]

Gringo community? You do know that is a highly racist term, don't you?

But the airline will be no surprise when it is announced publicly. Pity it will not be Interjet with the SSJ. Perhaps Hermosillo in the future.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1): Gringo community? You do know that is a highly racist term, don't you?

No it's not.

Colloquial term to describe a foreigner in Latin America, yes. Highly racist, hardly.

That timing doesn't make sense if it plans to use the gates here in PHX. An AM departure would certainly work but the PM arrival back into PHX is at the busiest times of the day unless it plans to wait to return until about 10PM

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 2): Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1): Gringo community? You do know that is a highly racist term, don't you? No it's not. Colloquial term to describe a foreigner in Latin America, yes. Highly racist, hardly.

Thats the problem with a lot of people in the US, they base everything in race and divide each other, when really we all bleed red...

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 2):

Shall I then be free to list the "colloquial" terms for Latin Americans? How about black people or Asian people? Yes, it is every bit as racist as they.

Quoting santi319 (Reply 5): Thats the problem with a lot of people in the US, they base everything in race and divide each other, when really we all bleed red...

I know, those gweilos just don't get it.

I was told but never witnessed that there is a larger Mormon community which was established in the mid-1960s and into the early 1970s. However, I am not sure that it's big enough to support a flight. Seems a reasonable flight during holidays as a seasonal offer, but I think the airline this fits best is an AA outfit for the onward connections if nothing else. Otherwise, the CRJ2 points to the same crowd which is launching that new Gateway Williams Mesa service.

As a side, someone is making the drive. When I visited Park Mall in Tucson at Christmas, it seems at least one-out-of-three of the license plates were from Sonora.

Quoting ODwyerPW (Thread starter): So, PHX is the home base for this flight. The flight time is about 55mins. So with a reasonable turn around time at each leg, we are talking about an 8 hour day for a crew of 4 (two pilots, two flight attendents).

Assuming that's just time from pushback to engines off at the last leg. Assuming the crew is PHX based, it could be up-to-an-hour commute to the airport, plus a sign on time at least one hour prior to departure, and another hour long drive home. It's a long day even if they are not commuting pilots.

IIRC there was an Aeromexico MD-80 GYM-TUS (GYM-PHX?) in the early 90s.

Didn't America West Express fly the route to PHX with Dash 8s?

These could be Aeromexico flights. They had service from TUS to Hermosillo for many years with Saabs. There was rumor at one time that they were going to begin PHX to Puerto Peñasco service. They would most likely use the AM Connect planes. Another possibility is AeroCalafia. They currently have service to Guaymas to a number of Mexican destinations. They currently have no international service. But since they are strong in Baja California and Sonora, this might be an expansion possibility.

As a foreign resident in Mexico, I think it is always better to us correct language in reference to nationality.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 6): Shall

There's a major difference between colloquial terms and racist names. You really should do some research before you start accusing people of things because of your misunderstandings

I'm a US citizen of Irish descent with more than 10 years in Mexico .

Amongst ourselves, the Expat community often refer to one another as Gringos... it's a playful term.
In fact in Spanish we often call ourselves gringos as it's easier to pronounce than 'extranjero'.
However, a Mexican national would hesitate to use that for fear of being offensive.

The term was used during the Mex revolution when US soldiers were helping... US soldiers wore Green...
when the Mexicans gave an order to the US soldiers, they would shout Grin (green) Go! The origin of the word really is that innocent.

HZ747300, thanks for the details.

US served Guaymas until 2012 I believe.

It will be TAR http://tarmexico.com/

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 9): Didn't America West Express fly the route to PHX with Dash 8s?

According to GYM's wikipedia page (yes, not always the best source of information)

"US Airways used to fly to Phoenix from Guaymas with Bombardier CRJ200 aircraft; the route was initially operated by Beechcraft 1900D and Bombardier Dash 8 aircraft. The service was discontinued in late 2012."

It gives Airlineroute as a reference.

http://airlineroute.net/2012/09/10/us-gym-w12cxld/

'902

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 7): As a side, someone is making the drive. When I visited Park Mall in Tucson at Christmas, it seems at least one-out-of-three of the license plates were from Sonora.

That's a normal, weekend occurrence. There are times it seems 80% of license plates are from Sonora at the Tucson malls.

But the people aren't coming from the beach towns--many are coming from farther north: Nogales, Cananea, Magdalena, Altar etc.

Quoting MayaviaERJ190 (Reply 14): It will be TAR http://tarmexico.com/

That would be really interesting as TAR has no presence in Northern Mexico. Nothing in Sonora, Chihuahua, Cuahiua, Baja California. To make the jump North and then North of the Border into Arizona is quite an expansion.
Furthermore, their fleet consist of 3 ERJs.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 16): But the people aren't coming from the beach towns--many are coming from farther north: Nogales, Cananea, Magdalena, Altar etc.

Lots of Tucson traffic comes from as far away as Hermosillo and Obregon. Again, I doubt those folks are going to fly. They shop with their families in Tucson to save money, and a $400 ticket per family member defeats the purpose.
Clothing and Personal Electronics in the US are cheaper than in Mexico if purchased at Outlet Stores, Overstock Stores, Thrift Stores and Garage Sales.

A bit off topic, but while working for Mesa Airlines (dba America West Express) at PHX in the early to mid 1990's I recall seeing Arizona Airways (also later known as Arizona Airways Express). They operated a Beech 1900C and a Beech 1300 for passenger flights from PHX and for a shorter period from TUS to Guaymas, Hermosillo and Ciudad Obregón. I distinctly remember an Arizona Airways billboard that was located fairly close to Van Buren as it was visible from the B gates at Terminal 4 at Sky Harbor Airport. Arizona Airways used a gate at Terminal 2 and their aircraft were easy to distinguish as no other carrier utilized a Beech 1300 and the tail of the aircraft displayed the Arizona state flag.

AZ Airways 1990's

The Expat Community in San Carlos Sonora Mexico is having a bit of fun with this as well.
A guess that airline poll and comment thread:

http://forum.sancarlosmexico.com/view_topic.php?id=14818&forum_id=1

It's noteworthy to see just how excited folks are about this flight!

Another carrier which has CRJ200's and has some presence in Mexico now is Elite Airways 7Q

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 20): Another carrier which has CRJ200's and has some presence in Mexico now is Elite Airways 7Q

Just curious, what kind of presence does Elite have in Mexico?

Quoting 910A (Reply 21): Just curious, what kind of presence does Elite have in Mexico?

I couldn't find anything specific on their site. Just a handful of US east coast destinations.

They operate seasonal to Cancun on behalf of Branson Express.

http://bransonairexpress.com/cancun-mexico/

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 13): US served Guaymas until 2012 I believe.

I remember that it also used to be a destination advertised by Hughes Airwest, too, back in the 70s. Did Republic go to GYM before the merger, or was it stopped before?

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1): Gringo community? You do know that is a highly racist term, don't you?

It's OK to call yourself by a racist term...but not for others to do so. Just like the rap group calling themselves N.W.A......

Quoting MayaviaERJ190 (Reply 14): It will be TAR http://tarmexico.com/

Are you sure? Any source?

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 17): That would be really interesting as TAR has no presence in Northern Mexico. Nothing in Sonora, Chihuahua, Cuahiua, Baja California.

Oh, yes they do... Only thing is their destination map is quite old.
They have been growing services in Northwestern Mexico including CJS, CUL, LAP, HMO and LMM). However, I am still skeptcial about this new service to Arizona.

[Edited 2016-02-18 08:50:06]

A few folks have suggested that it may be
CalJet Air.
http://www.caljetair.com

Of course CalJet is really a tour/travel promotor who has it's flights operated by
Xtra Airways.
http://www.xtraairways.com/

But they don't have the hardware, so it would be a wetlease of someone else's CRJ200 more than likely.

Quoting pzurita1 (Reply 25): However, I am still skeptcial about this new service to Arizona.

The Arizona Star article mentioned a 'Domestic Airline' . Being that line occurred in a US newspaper, you'd assume that means a US domestic airline.
That takes TAR out of the list of possibilities.

Mystery appears solved:

http://paradiseairclub.com/portfolio/paradise-air/

So it's Paradise AirClub through CalJet via XtraAir or some other wet-lease partner.
I was skeptical a tour operator could put together that kind of Private Sector / Public Sector support, but it looks like they've done it. They've disclosed it on their website.
Just waiting for CalJet to disclose who they are actually using to operate the flights, as they don't own any planes either (unless this CRJ200 is their entry into flying their own metal and all that it entails).

Interesting stuff. Ya I knew TAR seemed a bit of a reach especially considering how small their fleet is. I'm always a bit skeptical of these types of public charter operations. Clearly they had trouble selling this to more established airlines.

Quoting TUSDawg23 (Reply 29): always a bit skeptical of these types of public charter operations.

This one is TWO or THREE layers of charter tour/travel operator involvement... Paradise AirClub / Paradise Sands-Mexico and then CalJet.

We still haven't gotten to the actual carrier yet.

Someone pointed out to me that the ParadiseAir link I posted.... well that webpage was updated in August of 2015... No way everything was set and go 6 months ago... So that casts some doubt as to whether this is really solved or not..

Sorry, I keep posting in series, but you loose the Edit functionality after a few hours. Anyway, news became available on this topic yesterday.

A private pilot who lives in Guaymas/SanCarlos was clearing customs at the Guaymas Airport this weekend. He simply asked about the pending flights to Tucson and Phoenix. The fellow took out the books and showed flights for Paradise Air / CalJet Air commencing in April.
Still doesn't answer who's metal... but looks to be XtraAir diversifying their fleet or a new CalJet partner.

Interesting stuff. Yeah, I wish it were one of the bigger guys, but it's a start. Hopefully they can keep it going.

The Airline Paradise Air has missed their inaugural flight from GYM, 11/17/2016, today. (they missed one two weeks ago as well). They cited gate space issues in PHX.

Now the next inaugural flight is scheduled for this upcoming Sunday, 11/20/2016... Only now it's via FlyMex. (flymex.aero). Go figure.

ODwyerPW wrote:

The Airline Paradise Air has missed their inaugural flight from GYM, 11/17/2016, today. (they missed one two weeks ago as well). They cited gate space issues in PHX.

Now the next inaugural flight is scheduled for this upcoming Sunday, 11/20/2016... Only now it's via FlyMex. (flymex.aero). Go figure.

Interesting... only thing on the International Concourse schedule was a Do328 for both days and it was allocated into the gate space and had a two hour buffer on each side. I wasn't aware it was that because it was showing the registration of the UN Do328

Flight didn't happen. Now they are citing getting off the ground in December. So lots of folks with Thanksgiving plans will use HMO (Hermosillo) as their O/D via Aeromar..

Seems Paradise-Air Mexico won't be getting off the ground. Reading that many in the San Carlos / Guaymas area purchased advanced tickets 6 to 8 months ago. Some business purchased ad space in their in-flight magazine more than a year ago. Some folks are seeking refunds on those advanced flight coupon purchases. Meanwhile, the folks behind the effort have opened a restaurant. Discouraging.

ODwyerPW wrote:

Seems Paradise-Air Mexico won't be getting off the ground. Reading that many in the San Carlos / Guaymas area purchased advanced tickets 6 to 8 months ago. Some business purchased ad space in their in-flight magazine more than a year ago. Some folks are seeking refunds on those advanced flight coupon purchases. Meanwhile, the folks behind the effort have opened a restaurant. Discouraging.

They recently purchased space on a billboard at 40th & Airlane to advertise the service oddly enough.

Letter was sent to several folks who purchased advanced tickets. Seems these folks are trying something different for flights from Tuscson/Phoenix to Guaymas.

In the letter they mentioned an airline based out of Carlsbad California with a startup in late April 2017 that will use a CRJ-700. California Pacific Airlines is a startup based in Carlasbad, California. Their plans in 2016 were to operate 3 Embraer ERJ-135 planes and later add an Embraer 170. They don't meet the CRJ bit, but they are the only airline trying to make a go of commercial air service out of Carlsbad, CA. Check out FlyCPAir.com.

At the moment the McClellan-Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, California has no commercial flights, only private flights. But CPAir has been trying for a few years (they actually existed years ago, so this is an attempt at a restart). United was the last commercial airline operating out of Carlsbad, pulling out in April 2015.

Regardless, maybe the Paradise-Air folks are hitching their hopes on the CPAir guys getting it together. Sure would hate to be those folks who purchased advanced tickets 9 months ago.

ODwyerPW wrote:

Letter was sent to several folks who purchased advanced tickets. Seems these folks are trying something different for flights from Tuscson/Phoenix to Guaymas.

In the letter they mentioned an airline based out of Carlsbad California with a startup in late April 2017 that will use a CRJ-700. California Pacific Airlines is a startup based in Carlasbad, California. Their plans in 2016 were to operate 3 Embraer ERJ-135 planes and later add an Embraer 170. They don't meet the CRJ bit, but they are the only airline trying to make a go of commercial air service out of Carlsbad, CA. Check out FlyCPAir.com.

At the moment the McClellan-Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, California has no commercial flights, only private flights. But CPAir has been trying for a few years (they actually existed years ago, so this is an attempt at a restart). United was the last commercial airline operating out of Carlsbad, pulling out in April 2015.

Regardless, maybe the Paradise-Air folks are hitching their hopes on the CPAir guys getting it together. Sure would hate to be those folks who purchased advanced tickets 9 months ago.

CP Air is a joke at this point. I appreciate Ted's vision, but their project is going nowhere if they really think they can be based out of Carlsbad with the short runway providing jet service. The Tucson flights to Guaymas was wishful thinking and I don't know of any US based operators who would take that on. I could see a few Mexican carriers maybe bite, but I wonder how hesitant US citizens would be about taking a relatively unknown Mexican carrier. For now they will have to settle with the Aeromar flights to HMO.

So far, this one is ending badly. Lots of San Carlos residents purchased advanced tickets in the form of travel vouchers, only to see flight after flight canceled and promise after promise broken. You can count the number of persons who received a refund on one hand, literally. The rest, who expected to take a flight, have instead been taken for a ride.

The Arizona Star out of Tucson is set to do a follow-up article.

Folks will have to be content with AeroMar who flies from Tucson into Hermosillo.... and then you bus/taxi it down from there.

We have seen many times over the years that start-ups for nitch markets often do not materalize or last long. Hopefully in the future Aeromar, Aerocalifia or Aeromexico Connect will connect these cities to PHX with a couple of round trips a week.
I would like to make a comment about the Gringo conversation. I have lived in Mexico for many years. I work in a non profit Catholic educational center. I do not belong to any expat community and have no connection with any Americans in Mexico. To avoid misunderstandings I follow the rule of avoiding nick names, generalizations.... Americans are Americans, Mexicans are Mexicans....

DesertAir wrote:

These could be Aeromexico flights. They had service from TUS to Hermosillo for many years with Saabs. There was rumor at one time that they were going to begin PHX to Puerto Peñasco service. They would most likely use the AM Connect planes. Another possibility is AeroCalafia. They currently have service to Guaymas to a number of Mexican destinations. They currently have no international service. But since they are strong in Baja California and Sonora, this might be an expansion possibility.

As a foreign resident in Mexico, I think it is always better to us correct language in reference to nationality.

I can remember AeroCalifornia flying DC9's TUS-Hermosillio back in the 1990's

DesertAir wrote:

We have seen many times over the years that start-ups for nitch markets often do not materalize or last long. Hopefully in the future Aeromar, Aerocalifia or Aeromexico Connect will connect these cities to PHX with a couple of round trips a week.
I would like to make a comment about the Gringo conversation. I have lived in Mexico for many years. I work in a non profit Catholic educational center. I do not belong to any expat community and have no connection with any Americans in Mexico. To avoid misunderstandings I follow the rule of avoiding nick names, generalizations.... Americans are Americans, Mexicans are Mexicans....

Think we covered the use of the phrase 'Gringo Community' well in the first 4 posts of this thread by folks intent on being offended and or pedantic. It's a colloquial term referring to North American ex-pat communities in Latin American countries. Misunderstood/Misapplied? Perhaps. Worthy of debate? Think not.

Meanwhile, back on topic:

It is disappointing to see failed attempts at air service to Guaymas. With the large manufacturing base in Guaymas/Empalme and the attraction of San Carlos beaches.. all within a 15 minute drive of the Guaymas Airport, it's surprising they cannot attract at least one scheduled charter service one or two times a week. (a 19pax prop) However, the Tucson to Hermosillo AeroMar service is something! And it's good. Interesting, that it only surfaced after the Paradise-Air Tucson to Guaymas plans were being bantered about. So, I guess the failed Paradise-Air effort accomplished something positive for the community.