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eirbus06
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Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:32 am

I came across this flight on flight aware and noticed the average flight time of 07hrs 45mins on a 737. I wonder how they make any money with the penalty they must be taking. Is this more of a privatair type of service?

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/ETH712
 
TC957
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:18 am

Looks we have a new contender for the longest 738 regular scheduled flight, and that out of hot & high ADD. Quite impressive !
I don't think ET have any 737's in an all-biz class config a la Privatair.
 
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:28 am

As the crow flies, PTY-MVD (11x weekly) is slightly longer (3,385mi) than ADD-MAD (3,382) and is by the 738. CM have a number of routes within the 2,750-3,385mi range all by 73s.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
TC957
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:34 am

Ah yes, PTY - MVD is 8 miles more according to Galileo GDS. Showing as 3396 v 3388 for ADD-MAD.
 
winGl3t
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:32 pm

The main difference is that both PTY and MVD are almost at sea level, while ADD and MAD sits at 7600 ft and 2000 ft, respectively.
 
qm001
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:54 pm

I wonder what the pax hit would be on this routing?
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
SCQ83
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:04 pm

This flight is to feed Ethiopian's hub in ADD, so I don't think they need a huge load to make it work. TK's short haul flights to Europe have on average relatively low loads.
 
TC957
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:50 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 6):
TK's short haul flights to Europe have on average relatively low loads.

Flown on many half-empty TK services from point in Europe to IST have you ?
 
SCQ83
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:20 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 7):
Flown on many half-empty TK services from point in Europe to IST have you ?

Yes I have  .

In any case I remember reading here loads for TK services in Europe, and while there were all over the spectrum, most were between 60-70-80%, which is already a big "load penalty" so to speak.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:16 pm

Don't they fly 757's? Seems like a more capable aircraft of handling the challenges of the route, with not that much greater capacity, no?
 
N1120A
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:20 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 9):
Don't they fly 757's? Seems like a more capable aircraft of handling the challenges of the route, with not that much greater capacity, no?

They only have 2 of them. I'd imagine a 73G would make more sense.
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seabosdca
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:49 pm

ET operating this route westbound with a 738 is kind of remarkable. Under typical conditions at ADD the 738 can manage a takeoff weight of only around 72 t. At an OEW of 42 t and with a full fuel load of ~20 t (given altitude), that only allows ~10 t for payload. Eastbound is far less of a problem.

By contrast a high-thrust, high-TOW 73G should usually take off at MTOW from ADD and wouldn't have any problem flying this route with a full passenger load.
 
winGl3t
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:12 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):
By contrast a high-thrust, high-TOW 73G should usually take off at MTOW from ADD and wouldn't have any problem flying this route with a full passenger load.

ET is indeed flying 73G on the route configured with 118 pax (16C 102Y).
 
N1120A
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:41 pm

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 12):
ET is indeed flying 73G on the route configured with 118 pax (16C 102Y).

Now that makes a lot more sense
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TS-IOR
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:59 pm

I have asked that same question on the Tech-Ops forum sometime ago and didn't get any answer! I wondered if these 737s were HGW or payload restricted or something. The -700 has the longest range among the NG family but wouldn't imagine a non-BBJ would be able for it.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:57 am

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 12):
ET is indeed flying 73G on the route configured with 118 pax (16C 102Y).

There have been a few subs with 738. It operated the route nonstop in around 7:40. Passenger loads must have been terrible.

But then again 118 on a 73G is almost a BBJ configuration.   

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 14):
I wondered if these 737s were HGW or payload restricted or something.

You can pretty much always assume that any aircraft ET flies has the highest thrust option given the conditions at ADD, and the highest MTOW given the long stages ET flies and the typical baggage/cargo loads coming into ADD. They may be the single airline in the world with the most demanding field performance requirements.

[Edited 2016-02-17 20:00:01]
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:17 am

I flew a 763 ADD-FCO which was continuing onto MAD. Is this 738 supplementary or replacing this MAD service?
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
N1120A
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 14):
The -700 has the longest range among the NG family but wouldn't imagine a non-BBJ would be able for it.

The -700 has the longest range and best takeoff performance. The -700 has truly excellent performance, so that it is able to take off out of ADD and fly to MAD isn't so far-fetched, especially configured only to 118. CM is running longer routes with 738s.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 16):
Is this 738 supplementary or replacing this MAD service?

73G
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vinniewinnie
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
here have been a few subs with 738. It operated the route nonstop in around 7:40. Passenger loads must have been terrible.

Passenger loads are not that good from what I heard. Addis may be hot & high during the day, but it is definitely cold & high during the night.

ET is one of the strangest airlines there is I find. They will fly any plane to any destination. I don't know whether they just tailor the size of aircrafts according to demand, but you will find 777L to Nigeria, 738, 767's, 787's to Kinshasa, and sometimes a 737 followed by a 777 from JNB.

I just don't get it...
 
[email protected]
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:28 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 18):
I just don't get it...

Right-sizing supply with demand
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
vinniewinnie
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:04 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 19):
Right-sizing supply with demand

Which airline has that luxury? There is fundamentally something very wrong with Ethiopian's business model from Addis I believe. Time will tell.
 
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:52 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 20):
Which airline has that luxury? There is fundamentally something very wrong with Ethiopian's business model from Addis I believe. Time will tell.

Because it can right-size when it is required because of sufficient flexibility? As ET is Africa's only meaningfully successful airline, let's hope you're wrong.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
vinniewinnie
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:34 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 21):
Because it can right-size when it is required because of sufficient flexibility? As ET is Africa's only meaningfully successful airline, let's hope you're wrong

Well there is something fundamentally wrong in the African Aviation sector: Prices are sky-high! African countries were meant to implement the Yamassoukro treaty, but never did. Thus, competition has been stiffled, largely leading to these sky-high prices.

Could Ethiopian survive if African skies were a bit more freer? I'm not sure.

Not all success is beneficial...
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:36 pm

ET's fleet usage is either a marvel of flexibility or a frantic juggling act, and I'm never quite sure which. It will be even more fun to watch as they add 359s, 789s, and low-TOW "teen" 788s to the mix.

[Edited 2016-02-18 10:38:37]
 
Flaps
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:45 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 22):
Not all success is beneficial...

Given the obstacles and challenges faced by much/most of African aviation I would suggest that ANY success is beneficial. ET is one of the few successful operators in that arena. I would most definitely say that they of all operators on the continent "have their shit together".
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:49 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 22):
Well there is something fundamentally wrong in the African Aviation sector: Prices are sky-high! African countries were meant to implement the Yamassoukro treaty, but never did. Thus, competition has been stiffled, largely leading to these sky-high prices.

This is something ET's CEO always complains about.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 22):
Could Ethiopian survive if African skies were a bit more freer? I'm not sure.

Actually, the biggest beneficiaries of this reality are non African carriers: EK, TK, AF/KL, BA, etc. The same carriers are ET's competitors, so I am not sure ET is that privileges for being an African airline.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 20):
There is fundamentally something very wrong with Ethiopian's business model from Addis I believe. Time will tell.

Not sure, when they have more profits than all other African carriers put together, I would say they know what they are doing and it is not just pure luck.
 
jetsetter629
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:29 pm

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 25):
This is something ET's CEO always complains about.

A recent article in The Economist shows just how much African nations lose in GDP because of their inability to open up their skies

Source
 
ACDC8
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:28 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
The -700 has the longest range and best takeoff performance.

Not wanting to go off topic, but we had a -700 flying from SJD to YYC the other week, which is just under a 5 hour flight, so no biggie on that. But during the crew announcements, the captain mentioned due to our weight, we'll be doing a series of step climbs for our flight before levelling off at FL400. I found that interesting that he informed us (not that anyone other than myself cared LOL) but it got me thinking, while its pretty much routine on large long haul aircraft, is this a common practice on smaller aircraft as well?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
N1120A
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:59 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 20):
There is fundamentally something very wrong with Ethiopian's business model from Addis I believe.

Except that they are, by far, the most financially solvent African carrier.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 22):
Could Ethiopian survive if African skies were a bit more freer? I'm not sure.

They would make even more money.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 27):
Not wanting to go off topic, but we had a -700 flying from SJD to YYC the other week, which is just under a 5 hour flight, so no biggie on that. But during the crew announcements, the captain mentioned due to our weight, we'll be doing a series of step climbs for our flight before levelling off at FL400. I found that interesting that he informed us (not that anyone other than myself cared LOL) but it got me thinking, while its pretty much routine on large long haul aircraft, is this a common practice on smaller aircraft as well?

Not as common, but still possible
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vinniewinnie
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:34 am

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 25):
Actually, the biggest beneficiaries of this reality are non African carriers: EK, TK, AF/KL, BA, etc. The same carriers are ET's competitors, so I am not sure ET is that privileges for being an African airline.

Agreed

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 25):
Not sure, when they have more profits than all other African carriers put together, I would say they know what they are doing and it is not just pure luck.

Well given how Ethiopia is managed (state control of many strategic enterprises is common), I wouldn't be too sure how profitable they are without government help.

I'm in Addis at the moment: The government hand is heavy and that is in every sector of the economy.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
They would make even more money.

Not sure. Check any OD piair such as Entebbe to Nairobi, Ouagadougou - Abidjan, Yaounde to Libreville etc. 1 to 2 hours sectors cost 400-600 euros return no matter.

With a freer market, U'd expect these fares to tumble by 50% at least, but unlike Europe, lower prices may not bring that much demand, given how unaffordable aviation is for the masses.

Developing markets are not as price sensitive as developed market

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 26):
A recent article in The Economist shows just how much African nations lose in GDP because of their inability to open up their skies

Exactly
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:16 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 19):
Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 18):
I just don't get it...

Right-sizing supply with demand

We have a daily Ethiopian at ARN. It arrives around 0900 and departs at 1900. The aircraft type and the routing varies daily. In the last six months I have seen B787 B777 (various types) B767 and two B737NG parked on the ramp. The routing is also via Rome or Vienna or Frankfurt. How anyone keeps track I don't know.
 
[email protected]
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:17 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 30):
How anyone keeps track I don't know.

Because that's their job?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Viscount724
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RE: Ethiopian 737 ADD-MAD

Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
But then again 118 on a 73G is almost a BBJ configuration.
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 27):
Not wanting to go off topic, but we had a -700 flying from SJD to YYC the other week, which is just under a 5 hour flight, so no biggie on that.

Canadian North has been operating SJD-YYC-YEG on behalf of Air Transat using a 737-300 recently.

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