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KarelXWB
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Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:23 am

Bombardier introduces the world’s only 90-seat turboprop.

Quote:
Bombardier Commercial Aircraft today again demonstrated the unique versatility of the Q400 aircraft by introducing the world’s only commercial turboprop capable of carrying 90 passengers.

“We are witnessing growth in the number of passengers per departure in the turboprop market and Bombardier is responding with a 90-seat Q400 aircraft – a new segment solution ideally suited for current and future short-haul and high-demand markets,” said Patrick Baudis, Vice President, Marketing, Bombardier Commercial Aircraft.

Press release
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/n...y-90-seat-turbo.bombardiercom.html
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BlatantEcho
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:40 pm

The press release is very unclear. This has to be a stretch right??
Or are they taking out a baggage hold or something??

If stretched, how long?

Great to see them come out swinging finally. New energy!
 
behramjee
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:00 pm

if this indeed turns out to be true it basically means you can get a DH4 offering 25-30% more capacity than currently (70-75 seats) without any major incremental operational costs...am i right? If so all future DH4 orders would be for this variant as no one would want a smaller variant for the missions this aircraft type is designed to perform.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:10 pm

So I'm thinking they've gone from 86 seats with 29 inch pitch to 90 seats with 28 inch pitch?

Doesn't sound like a stretch to me, just a ultra high capacity regional model for the Asian market.


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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:29 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 3):
So I'm thinking they've gone from 86 seats with 29 inch pitch to 90 seats with 28 inch pitch?

Will Zodiac and Hexcel's new seats spaced at 27 inches please stand, please stand up...

I'm willing to bet that Nok Air will be launch customer for this - they already fly six Q400 with 86 seats @ 29 inches.
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:46 pm

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 1):

There is no way, with all their current troubles, that BBD can afford a stretch of the Q400. This is just a reconfiguration of the cabin.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 2):
If so all future DH4 orders would be for this variant as no one would want a smaller variant for the missions this aircraft type is designed to perform.

Premium carriers will not be interested in this layout, as it is no doubt at ~28" pitch with limited galley space. This is aimed towards LCCs.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:54 pm

Yes it's a cabin reconfiguration. They've also increased payload capacity by 2000 lb and A and B-checks from 600/6000 hours to 800/8000 hours.
 
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 1):
The press release is very unclear. This has to be a stretch right??

Nope . . .

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 1):
Or are they taking out a baggage hold or something??

. . . it's in the "or something" category.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...o-take-q400-up-to-90-seats-422050/

Quote:

The airframer says that it will move back the rear bulkhead and reconfigure the front right-hand door to accommodate an extra row of seats. The seat pitch will however remain at 28in.
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.
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The manufacturer has also announced a 2,000lb increase in payload for the Q400, while it will increase A-check intervals from 600 to 800 hours, and C-checks from 6,000 to 8,000 hours. Those changes will also enter service in 2018.
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:29 pm

I hope they are succesful, they deserve that.
Also I am thinking if this will "stimulate" Airbus to give ATR green light to proceed with their big turboprop project....   
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slider
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:30 pm

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 1):
Great to see them come out swinging finally. New energy!

Not new energy--sounds more like an act of near desperation to boost sales of a ship that's not been terribly reliable and they need to do something. Oil prices alone have again conspired to help wound turboprops gravely. Ramming more people into a Q400 won't solve those deeper issues for Bombardier.
 
r2rho
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:12 pm

Though I am certainly no fan of so-called "cabin enhancements" ultimately implying an ultra-high-density config, it's good to see BBD squeeze out performance of its existing products. IIRC there had once been mentions of a new propeller that would improve fuel efficiency - would be good to see something happen on that side as well.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 8):
Also I am thinking if this will "stimulate" Airbus to give ATR green light to proceed with their big turboprop project...

It would be nice indeed, but I doubt it. At 28" pitch, the appeal is really only for Asian LCC's, so sales won't be huge, and thus not threaten ATR's dominant position, so Airbus will just keep milking the cow.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:34 pm

If it just to reconfigure the cabin couldn't a current operator just modify their layout to this?
 
A320FlyGuy
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:15 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 9):
sounds more like an act of near desperation to boost sales of a ship that's not been terribly reliable

Where do you get the impression that the Q400 is not a reliable aircraft?
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queb
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:26 pm

Current Q400 dispatch reliability is over 99.5%

Page 6:
http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.../q400/QSeries-Brochure__022016.pdf
 
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flybynight
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:32 pm

It is already tight on the Q400's I fly on regularly with Horizon. Now soon to be even more cramped? F that!!  
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dc10lover
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:19 am

Would 90 passengers and baggage / cargo be too heavy?
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Flaps
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:29 am

Good golly that is going to be one seriously uncomfortable configuration. I love the Q400 but as for this version, NO THANKS.....

  
 
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:42 am

I read somewhere (likely here in a.net) that the forward baggage compartment would be converted to cabin space. So at 90 seats, even on short haul (to make the 28" pitch survivable), I do question if cubing out the aft baggage compartment would be a normal problem.
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queb
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:11 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 17):

From Bombardier's website:
http://commercialaircraft.bombardier...ty/Adaptable-Modular-Interior.html

Looks like the pressure bulkhead has been pushed back a little bit on the 90 seats layout:
http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.com/content/dam/Websites/bca/Q400_NEXTGEN/3.4_flexibility/Q400_EXTRACAPACITY_LOPAs_022016_EN.jpg

[Edited 2016-02-17 18:21:57]
 
Wingtips56
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:14 am

90 seats and one lav. Another reason they better only be on short flights!
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kaneporta1
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:05 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 11):
If it just to reconfigure the cabin couldn't a current operator just modify their layout to this?

I don't think that on current models the floor structure can support such a high density. I assume that this "new" variant will feature a strengthened structure, hence the ability to increase payload by 2000lbs.
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:29 am

My first thoughts are,

For regional operators, flying the Q400 into regional towns, I'm thinking no doubt cargo plays an important role to these destinations. Is removing the forward cargo hold and reducing the size of the rear one a good idea? I see the standard 31 inch pitch seating version is for 74 but with nearly 40% more cargo space.

I'm thinking of some of the places the aircraft operates regularly in. Remote small parts of Canada and Australia, or South Island of New Zealand, the highlands of Scotland etc. These are all communities that need a steady stream of air freight in and out to meet everything from pharmaceuticals and pathology tests, exports of fresh produce to bigger cities that can perish fast, etc etc.. it's a lifelife for these places as unlike hoping from a regional new england airport to EWR to take a transatlantic flight, road freight's/rail is a lot further away and their generally too small for a dedicated freight airline to serve/don't have runways that can handle larger jets etc. The Q400 shines in these markets because of its faster speeds on longer sectors and ability to get up to higher altitudes faster etc. I'm just wondering is it a serious mistake to reduce the aircrafts freight carring ability?
 
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:37 am

It won't be flown by the U.S. legacy carriers as they have a 76 seat scope limit. The a/c has a great dispatch reliability so hopefully it will gain traction in the regional markets overseas.
 
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:38 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 19):
90 seats and one lav. Another reason they better only be on short flights!

And on QX, no running water in the lavs. Hey, that'll reduce the "turn time" in there. lol

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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:33 pm

1 inch less seat pitch makes a difference. 1 bathroom - way up front - for 90 people on a flight that could be 90+ minutes!?!

I know it is a business, but good business is also making things comfortable for us the passengers.
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r2rho
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:38 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
Remote small parts of Canada and Australia, or South Island of New Zealand, the highlands of Scotland etc. These are all communities that need a steady stream of air freight in and out

That's why it is only offered as an option. Ia gree that for these communities, this 90-seat version is not suitable. But for Asian low-cost regional operators, towards which this is likely aimed, it may be good enough.
 
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:59 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 24):
1 inch less seat pitch makes a difference. 1 bathroom - way up front - for 90 people on a flight that could be 90+ minutes!?!

I know it is a business, but good business is also making things comfortable for us the passengers.

Slimline seating will probably be standard with this 90 seat version, so there might be no noticeable difference.
 
airzona11
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:32 pm

With fuel being lower, this aircraft can be a great regional commuter. An LCC type commuter is not going to be reliant on cargo. They created the COMBI model for those markets.

This high capacity Q400 is aimed at connecting metro areas, fringe metro areas and secondary airports. The CASM / OpEx have got to make this enticing for an LCC type operation.
 
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:21 pm

Don't show this to PR. They might get the wrong idea and pick it instead of the 78-seater...   
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CRJ900
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:11 pm

Quoting airzona11 (Reply 27):
This high capacity Q400 is aimed at connecting metro areas, fringe metro areas and secondary airports

I can see this version being interesting for FlyBe and Widerøe - they already fly long flights with their Q400s, an additional 2,000 lbs of payload will be useful, if they are to order a few more aircraft.
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:48 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
For regional operators, flying the Q400 into regional towns, I'm thinking no doubt cargo plays an important role to these destinations. Is removing the forward cargo hold and reducing the size of the rear one a good idea? I see the standard 31 inch pitch seating version is for 74 but with nearly 40% more cargo space.

usually the forward hold is not needed in standard ops. depending on cargo of course. but for a typical passenger flight in europe or northern america the forward hold is only used for trim reasons.

by putting seats there, the plane will most probably be very noseheavy judging from current DH4s, but i am sure bbd knows that.

even with 90 pax the rear hold will be enaugh in this variant, but no cargo or mail can be transported this way.

i see this a great idea and move, and i could see these flying many legs currently performed by the cr7/9 and other regional jets.
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:25 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 24):
1 inch less seat pitch makes a difference. 1 bathroom - way up front - for 90 people on a flight that could be 90+ minutes!?!

In my experience not many people use lavatories on flights less than about 2 hours or so, maybe half a dozen at the most, and rarely all at the same time. I almost never use an aircraft lavatory on flights less than 4 to 5 hours. Would rather use the facilities in the airport before boarding and after landing wherever possible.
 
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:35 am

Many complaints, but there is a market for the prices this will open up. Will it be enough? Q400 sales are struggling...

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 19):
90 seats and one lav. Another reason they better only be on short flights!
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 31):
In my experience not many people use lavatories on flights less than about 2 hours or so, maybe half a dozen at the most, and rarely all at the same time. I almost never use an aircraft lavatory on flights less than 4 to 5 hours.

In flight testing, at about 2 hours into a flight, the lavatory usage increases dramatically. So as long is the flight is short, this will work.

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YVRLTN
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:10 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
For regional operators, flying the Q400 into regional towns, I'm thinking no doubt cargo plays an important role to these destinations. Is removing the forward cargo hold and reducing the size of the rear one a good idea? I see the standard 31 inch pitch seating version is for 74 but with nearly 40% more cargo space.

I'm thinking of some of the places the aircraft operates regularly in

One obvious point is that more pax results in more bags reducing the cargo capacity even more.

I cant speak for Aus/NZ, but main Q400 operators Westjet do not accept cargo at all on Q400 flights and Jazz really dont put anything too significant in the hold at all, they truck feeder everything. Not sure about Porter, but have not heard of them offering cargo. There are certainly not any large community saving pharmaceuticals going on there. That is left to carriers with combis and dedicated freighters, particularly in the north where there are isolated communities. In BC for example, the small cargo is left to the likes of Carson & Orca with Metro's and 50 year old Beech twins to go with the bag runs.

This may drum up a few more sales, but doesn't fix the fundamental problem - the aircraft is "too" capable and costly to operate when those capabilities are not needed. As I said in the other thread, BBD seriously needs to look at a Q500 or lite version with the PW127F to compete with the ATR72. They cant in their current financial situation though, so this is probably as good as they can do.
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rbavfan
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:23 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 29):
I can see this version being interesting for FlyBe and Widerøe - they already fly long flights with their Q400s, an additional 2,000 lbs of payload will be useful, if they are to order a few more aircraft.

True people seem to be missing the airplane itself ill get the repositioned door/rear bulkhead. The extra load could be quit useful for airlines flying it in any configuration. Just cause they list it at 90 seats does not mean you cannot get all the upgrades and fly 66 seat mixed cabin.
 
DDR
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:51 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):

Have to agree with you. I have a friend who is a FA at Horizon and she says the lavs have to be serviced at most stations because they get used very frequently.

Totally off topic but I remember a trip a few years ago, it was a 757, and we had an early A.M. departure out of SFO after a nice 18 hour layover. Somehow they had forgotten to service the lavs after the inbound flight the previous night. We actually took a delay because the cabin stank so bad. Had to get the air going and get the smell out. Only time I've ever seen all 4 doors open on the ground LOL.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:57 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 33):
This may drum up a few more sales, but doesn't fix the fundamental problem - the aircraft is "too" capable and costly to operate when those capabilities are not needed.

Well, on a per Seat basis the Q400 is now cheaper than the ATR 72. The weight difference has also shrunken to about 10%/seat. Not too bad for 30% more cruise speed and 60% more range.
And you don´t have to gun the engines, if you take it a little slower, you can save a lot on fuel and maintenance.

And any aircraft is too capable and costly to operate when its capabilities are not needed.

best regards
Thomas
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bmibaby737
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:22 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 29):
I can see this version being interesting for FlyBe and Widerøe - they already fly long flights with their Q400s, an additional 2,000 lbs of payload will be useful, if they are to order a few more aircraft.

Flybe have enough second-hand Q400s coming from Republic, so I doubt they'd be looking at ordering the aircraft. Although I'm sure it would be a handy plane for them to have.
 
r2rho
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:15 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 34):
Just cause they list it at 90 seats does not mean you cannot get all the upgrades and fly 66 seat mixed cabin.

Correct - the upgrades will be useful for all, whether they go for high density seating or not.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
Well, on a per Seat basis the Q400 is now cheaper than the ATR 72.

How do you come to that conlcusion? Are you aware that ATR now also offers a high density layout?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:47 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):

How do you come to that conlcusion? Are you aware that ATR now also offers a high density layout?

Dividing list price by 78 and 90 respectively.

Best regards
Thomas
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queb
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:05 am

 
CRJ900
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:04 am

Quoting queb (Reply 40):
The Flying Engineer about high density turboprops:

The reporter calls seats with 28 inch pitch repulsive... millions of Europeans have flown on holiday carriers on 5-6-hour flights to Canary islands and Egypt for decades in old-style thick seats spaced at 28 inch pitch and they all survived and did it again next year. I spent Christmas 2013 at Gran Canaria and flew Novair - they have the old seats spaced at 28 inch pitch and the flights were 5hrs30mins each way. It was fine, I'm 180cm tall (5ft11) and have a small beer gut, I had room for my knees, could lower my tray table and did not suffer DVT after landing.

These new configurations will have slimline seats which gives you an extra inch of knee room, at least, and flights are two hours at most - it will definetly be bearable.
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r2rho
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:34 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
Well, on a per Seat basis the Q400 is now cheaper than the ATR 72.
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 39):
Dividing list price by 78 and 90 respectively.

I see. I understood your comment as cheaper to operate on a per seat basis, as in CASM, not acquisition cost. A high density ATR should still maintain the CASM advantage versus a high density Q400.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 42):
A high density ATR should still maintain the CASM advantage versus a high density Q400.

Yes, if you can't use the advantages to increase revenue, the ATR will be the better choice. But with the lower per seat price, less extra revenue will be required to do so.
And a Q400 can cruise at 290 kts at just 1800 lb/hr, about 15 to 20% more as an ATR72 with 15% more seats.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
slider
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:42 pm

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 12):
Where do you get the impression that the Q400 is not a reliable aircraft?

Stats. Someone else posted that DR is at 99.5%, which may currently be true. But there were many years Bombardier had serious issues. The damage was done. It's not going to sell and an expanded version is ludicrous.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:42 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 43):
And a Q400 can cruise at 290 kts at just 1800 lb/hr, about 15 to 20% more as an ATR72 with 15% more seats.

But the ATR is also 7 tonnes lighter, representing more than 20% lower MTOW chargeable costs.

Quoting slider (Reply 44):
Stats. Someone else posted that DR is at 99.5%, which may currently be true. But there were many years Bombardier had serious issues. The damage was done. It's not going to sell and an expanded version is ludicrous.

The Q400 used to be quoted as having 99.4% DR, but real world was more like 98% (1 in 50 flights with Tech issues), earning the aircraft it's 'Christmas Tree' nickname. ATR quote 99.7% and 99.8% DR depending on the literature, I'm not sure which is most accurate but I do understand that the -600 series both have exceptional reliability.


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RE: Bombardier Increases Q400 Capacity To 90 Seats

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
I'm thinking of some of the places the aircraft operates regularly in. Remote small parts of Canada and Australia, or South Island of New Zealand, the highlands of Scotland etc

There aren't any Q400's in New Zealand, there are Q300s which NZ opted for an larger rear hold by removing the rear galley.

Chances of there Q400 90 seater ending up with NZ are pretty slim, they seem to be an fan of the 72-600. With Jetstar there is an possibility that they could drop some A320 routes down to an Q400.

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