Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

mercure1 · Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:11 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 46):
So, perhaps to have a better starting point for this discussion, could someone remind us of the current A380 routes served by AF?

Current winter routes and frequencies are:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 2
JFK - 7
JNB - 5
LAX - 7
MEX - 3
MIA - 7
SIN - 7

For summer plan is:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 4
IAD - 7
JFK - 7
JNB - 3
LAX - 7
MEX - 7
SFO - 7
SIN - 7

DocLightning · Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:22 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):

The A380 should be a flying flagship showcasing the best of Air France,

Airbus made the A380 as basically a symbol to showcase what they could do. And we see how that worked out for them.

So let's not have AF make the same mistake. The A380 should make AF money.

MaverickM11 · Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:25 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 49):
You are missing the point: you were judging an airframe to be ineffective based on a reconfiguration cost number

Uh no. I was judging the airframe to be ineffective for AF's network; reconfiguring it only underlines that assessment. AF has said the 380 is not a good fit for their network.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 49):
Exactly the same argument you used against the A380, can also be applied against their 77W fleet.

Oh sure. Which is why they have 6x as many 777s as 380s

pa747sp · Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:28 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 30):
By virtue of its humongous size, the 380 can never be a frequency scheduled aircraft. What the 380 can do better than any other aircraft, is move a lot of people, all at once. That's it's strength. If you want to move more than 450 people by air using any other aircraft type, you will be making more than one flight...and there goes any trip/CASM/whatever advantage.

Sorry, I still don't get what you mean by a 'people mover'. All aircraft are 'people movers', and all can be configured differently to suit the market needs. I have no doubt that the various airlines that operate the A380 have a range of different market demands, and it can meet these depending on the choice of configurations.

Markets have grown in a large part to rising incomes and lowering operating costs of aircraft. The wide bodies that replaced the first generation 4-engine jets could have been described in the same way, and in the same way, over time they became too small.

What is maybe different about the A380 than the first generation of wide bodies is that the target airlines were not US domestic. I would imagine that from the outset Airbus saw the demand coming from carriers who operated longer sector length flights and who needed greater capacity than the 747. In that respect I imagine, though I am not sure, that the A380 is better suited to medium to long range routes rather than short range. Beyond that, like all planes, its just a big piece of rental space in the sky. How you rent out that space is dependent on who will pay what for it.

JoeCanuck · Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:01 am

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 53):

By people mover, I was implying transportation for the masses, as opposed to prime transportation...ie....buses instead of limos, herds of self loading cargo rather than society's elite, plastic forks...not fine china, Budweiser not Brut.

Faro · Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:54 am

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 53):
Beyond that, like all planes, its just a big piece of rental space in the sky. How you rent out that space is dependent on who will pay what for it.

The A380's fundamental problem is that airlines prefer to rent x number of smaller frames in a given timespan and offer business class pax higher frequency. Economy pax don't give a hoot about frequency and just want low cost travel so the A380 is essentially a Y-oriented aircraft. Packing in as many Y pax into the whale is therefore quite logical.

So long as there is a decent margin for slot growth at major airports around the world, the A380 will have a difficult time competing against...frequency.

Faro

N14AZ · Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:14 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
Airbus made the A380 as basically a symbol to showcase what they could do.

Waow, that's why I love a.net so much, every day you come here you learn something new.... I didn't know that this was the justification behind the programme. I will correct this in my internal history book

jfk777 · Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:48 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 50):

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 46):
So, perhaps to have a better starting point for this discussion, could someone remind us of the current A380 routes served by AF?

Current winter routes and frequencies are:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 2
JFK - 7
JNB - 5
LAX - 7
MEX - 3
MIA - 7
SIN - 7

For summer plan is:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 4
IAD - 7
JFK - 7
JNB - 3
LAX - 7
MEX - 7
SFO - 7
SIN - 7

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):

So let's not have AF make the same mistake. The A380 should make AF money.

If Air France can't make money with an A380 flying to that collection of cities they have far bigger problems. This collection of destination can support a 4 class airplane. This list is not for a 650 seat "Vacation special" A380. AF with its CDG hub has a home in one of the world's great cities, if it can't make the A380 work then there is something seriously wrong.

PW100 · Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:51 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 52):
. . .

And yet again, avoiding/ignoring the most important question . . .

peanuts · Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 57):
If Air France can't make money with an A380 flying to that collection of cities they have far bigger problems. This collection of destination can support a 4 class airplane. This list is not for a 650 seat "Vacation special" A380. AF with its CDG hub has a home in one of the world's great cities, if it can't make the A380 work then there is something seriously wrong.

And yet, staring at that collection of cities I don't see anything that screams A380. Maybe MIA. But wouldn't twice a day instead be better if demand warrants it?
And JFK (even IAD to a lesser extent) should be about frequency anyway. LAX as distant as it is, could use frequency over load.

That's where AF lacks competitiveness. Frequencies.

neutronstar73 · Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:54 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):

Unfortunately, this is the only way they can make the aircraft viable into the future, as they (and others) struggle to justify the aircraft's existence in the face of the 777X.

So much for the "prestige" aircraft nonsense people were peddling around here.....

parapente · Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:08 pm

I'm not sure Air France makes many (any?) type of aircraft 'work for them' from what I am continually reading about their airline- and how (badly) its run.

mercure1 · Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:26 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 57):
If Air France can't make money with an A380 flying to that collection of cities they have far bigger problems. This collection of destination can support a 4 class airplane.

Actually many of the markets don't need A380.

ABJ is ethnic flight. Historically always heavy loads large capacity aircraft.
JFK likely simply for utilization. Between AF-DL they have upwards of 6 flights per day on route. Frequency is king.
MIA & SFO are for tourism with aircraft rotating between them seasonally.
HKG & JNB is largely tourism with frequency adjusting seasonally between them.
MEX is a new market just started so lets see
LAX maybe only market that needs capacity but again it largely tourism draw with AF up to 3 daily flights on route
IAD this is also seasonal cater to summer tourism peak
SIN my mistake in listing. Its 77W market.

So if you look at network you will see AF has to move its A380 around season to season and majoritly uses A380 for peak tourism demand period on majority of routes.

EddieDude · Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:05 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 50):
Current winter routes and frequencies are:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 2
JFK - 7
JNB - 5
LAX - 7
MEX - 3
MIA - 7
SIN - 7

For summer plan is:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 4
IAD - 7
JFK - 7
JNB - 3
LAX - 7
MEX - 7
SFO - 7
SIN - 7

Thanks Mercure1. So, without SIN, right?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 57):
If Air France can't make money with an A380 flying to that collection of cities they have far bigger problems. This collection of destination can support a 4 class airplane. This list is not for a 650 seat "Vacation special" A380. AF with its CDG hub has a home in one of the world's great cities, if it can't make the A380 work then there is something seriously wrong.

Not so sure if all of them, but (i) I would like to assume that experts at AF (and perhaps outside) have carefully analyzed which cities in all of AF's long-haul network offer the best prospects for A380 service profitability; (ii) without any specific market knowledge, I would say it is safe to say that destinations such as JFK, HKG and LAX are definitely among those.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 59):
And JFK (even IAD to a lesser extent) should be about frequency anyway. LAX as distant as it is, could use frequency over load.

Well, if I am not mistaken, AF offers 26 weekly frequencies between JFK and CDG, which is no little thing. Add to this the seven weekly frequencies offered by DL under their metal-neutral trans-Atlantic alliance. I speculate that one of those flights can definitely be operated by an A380 profitably considering it is a major route with lots of demand for premium seats, in addition to it being a SkyTeam hub-to-hub route flown within a joint business agreement with antitrust immunity.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 62):
ABJ is ethnic flight. Historically always heavy loads large capacity aircraft.
JFK likely simply for utilization. Between AF-DL they have upwards of 6 flights per day on route. Frequency is king.
MIA & SFO are for tourism with aircraft rotating between them seasonally.
HKG & JNB is largely tourism with frequency adjusting seasonally between them.
MEX is a new market just started so lets see
LAX maybe only market that needs capacity but again it largely tourism draw with AF up to 3 daily flights on route
IAD this is also seasonal cater to summer tourism peak
SIN my mistake in listing. Its 77W market.

I must say I was surprised initially by the choice of ABJ, not because of the number of pax but because of the use of an aircraft with F-class. Considering that AF has not withdrawn the A380 from this route and reallocated it to, say, PVG, AF must be enjoying good loads in the J and F cabins.
With respect to JFK, you clearly counted more flights than I did, so I suppose that my statement about satisfying high frequency requirements while offering one of those frequencies operated by the A380 profitably is correct.
Even though you mention LAX, HKG, IAD and SFO as largely tourism routes, I think those routes also have high demand for premium seats, not only coming from business travelers (governments, international organizations, multinationals, funds, banks, etc.) but also from high-yield tourists and V.F.R. travelers.

jfk777 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:59 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 62):
Actually many of the markets don't need A380.

ABJ is ethnic flight. Historically always heavy loads large capacity aircraft.
JFK likely simply for utilization. Between AF-DL they have upwards of 6 flights per day on route. Frequency is king.
MIA & SFO are for tourism with aircraft rotating between them seasonally.
HKG & JNB is largely tourism with frequency adjusting seasonally between them.
MEX is a new market just started so lets see
LAX maybe only market that needs capacity but again it largely tourism draw with AF up to 3 daily flights on route
IAD this is also seasonal cater to summer tourism peak
SIN my mistake in listing. Its 77W market.

No matter where an airlines hub is in Europe, Dubai, Asia or Australia an A380 airline would fly to many if not all of these cities. IF AF can't make it work the A380 is the issue not AF. No matter what airline you talk about: Singapore, Qantas, BA, LH , AF, Emirates et al you are going to fly the whale to LAX, SIN, SFO, LHR, JNB, and all the rest. AF is going to have to fly the A380 until they wear out since their is no used market for them.

RickNRoll · Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:35 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 64):
No matter where an airlines hub is in Europe, Dubai, Asia or Australia an A380 airline would fly to many if not all of these cities. IF AF can't make it work the A380 is the issue not AF. No matter what airline you talk about: Singapore, Qantas, BA, LH , AF, Emirates et al you are going to fly the whale to LAX, SIN, SFO, LHR, JNB, and all the rest. AF is going to have to fly the A380 until they wear out since their is no used market for them.

*cough* British Airways.

*cough*

DocLightning · Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:14 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 56):

Waow, that's why I love a.net so much, every day you come here you learn something new.... I didn't know that this was the justification behind the programme. I will correct this in my internal history book

Obviously, they justified their own business case to themselves, but I think it's obvious enough to see that there was a lot of pride and arrogance that went into that program and it wound up being a commercial flop (not as bad as the 748 program, which was also basically done out of sentiment, but it flopped).

FlySSC · Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:11 am

I don't know where people got this "information" but AF has absolutely no intention to configurate its A380 in a high density config to operate them to French overseas departments.

Eventually AF thought of having too different config for its A380 : with or without First Class. This idea was quickly abandoned : AF operates only 10 A380 and won't have any more of it. They don't want two sub-fleet for only 10 aircraft.

The problem to update the A380 is simple : the Zodiac seats used for the 777 doesn't fit at the upper deck of the A380 in a 1x2x1 (too narrow cabin). The lateral bins could be removed to gain some centimeters but it would need Airbus approvement and certification and would immobilize each aircraft for a too long time.

Installing the First Class at the upper deck (as planned initially) appears also to be a problem with the Zodiac seats : the weight per cm3 is too important and the floor would need to be strengthened to install them so there again with a consequence of adding weight and long immobilization of the aircraft …

The First Class then should remain on the main deck with 8 seats instead of 9.

The Business Class seats chosen for the A330 could finally be installed also in the A380. That would be the most logical and cheapest option...

[Edited 2016-02-20 02:12:05]

jfk777 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:59 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 67):
The problem to update the A380 is simple : the Zodiac seats used for the 777 doesn't fit at the upper deck of the A380 in a 1x2x1 (too narrow cabin). The lateral bins could be removed to gain some centimeters but it would need Airbus approvement and certification and would immobilize each aircraft for a too long time.

Installing the First Class at the upper deck (as planned initially) appears also to be a problem with the Zodiac seats : the weight per cm3 is too important and the floor would need to be strengthened to install them so there again with a consequence of adding weight and long immobilization of the aircraft …

The First Class then should remain on the main deck with 8 seats instead of 9.

The Business Class seats chosen for the A330 could finally be installed also in the A380. That would be the most logical and cheapest option...

[Edited 2016-02-20 02:12:05]

How can Air France get a J class seat that fits the 777 but not an A380 ? You choose one that fits all the long haul planes. Maybe AF should place the desired number of J class seats on the main deck and fill in the rest with y seats plus Y+ in the front upper deck and Y the rest.

goldorak · Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:07 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 67):
I don't know where people got this "information" but AF has absolutely no intention to configurate its A380 in a high density config to operate them to French overseas departments.

Eventually AF thought of having too different config for its A380 : with or without First Class. This idea was quickly abandoned : AF operates only 10 A380 and won't have any more of it. They don't want two sub-fleet for only 10 aircraft.

The problem to update the A380 is simple : the Zodiac seats used for the 777 doesn't fit at the upper deck of the A380 in a 1x2x1 (too narrow cabin). The lateral bins could be removed to gain some centimeters but it would need Airbus approvement and certification and would immobilize each aircraft for a too long time.

Installing the First Class at the upper deck (as planned initially) appears also to be a problem with the Zodiac seats : the weight per cm3 is too important and the floor would need to be strengthened to install them so there again with a consequence of adding weight and long immobilization of the aircraft …

The First Class then should remain on the main deck with 8 seats instead of 9.

The Business Class seats chosen for the A330 could finally be installed also in the A380. That would be the most logical and cheapest option...

Thank you FlySSC for those very interesting information. I have a couple of questions for you :
- we understand well from your post why F cannot be moved UD and why the BEST J seat cannot be installed UD in 1-2-1. So why not moving J downstairs behind F, as 1-2-1 would certainly fit there ?
- you mention "the J seat chosen for the A330" : what are the differences with the 777 BEST J seat ? I hope it's not too different because the 777 one is just great.
Thank you

goldorak · Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:10 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 68):
How can Air France get a J class seat that fits the 777 but not an A380 ? You choose one that fits all the long haul planes. Maybe AF should place the desired number of J class seats on the main deck and fill in the rest with y seats plus Y+ in the front up

Exactly. We posted at the same time !!

KarelXWB · Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:37 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 68):
How can Air France get a J class seat that fits the 777 but not an A380 ? You choose one that fits all the long haul planes.

Originally AF didn't want to reconfigure the A380. If I have to make a guess, I'd say the J seats on the 777 were selected before AF decided to reconfigure the A380.

FlySSC · Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:05 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 71):
Originally AF didn't want to reconfigure the A380. If I have to make a guess, I'd say the J seats on the 777 were selected before AF decided to reconfigure the A380.

You must remember that when the decision to change the J seats, AF was in deep financial trouble. It represented a huge investment of € 500 Millions, just for the B777. A choice had to be made and the most urgent appeared to be the reconfiguration of the B777 to get rid of this horrible 2 x 3 x 2 config for a business Class.

Then, later when the finances got better, it was decided to reconfigure also the A380 and the A330, which represent an investment of almost another € 500 Millions ( the reconfiguration cost for the A380 is around € 25 Millions per aircraft)

Quoting goldorak (Reply 69):
- you mention "the J seat chosen for the A330" : what are the differences with the 777 BEST J seat ? I hope it's not too different because the 777 one is just great.

The final choice was between three types of seats already used by : Alitalia, Air Algérie and Iberia.

Finally, AF and Zodiac found an agreement and Zodiac seems to have accepted to "modify" the current seat used on the B777 so that it would fit in the A330 / A380 cabin (mostly by changing the angle of the seat).

It's easier for the A330, because on the A380, there is still the problem of the lateral bins that should be removed and as i said, it has to be approved by Airbus.

peanuts · Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:25 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 72):
You must remember that when the decision to change the J seats, AF was in deep financial trouble. It represented a huge investment of € 500 Millions, just for the B777. A choice had to be made and the most urgent appeared to be the reconfiguration of the B777 to get rid of this horrible 2 x 3 x 2 config for a business Class.

Then, later when the finances got better, it was decided to reconfigure also the A380 and the A330, which represent an investment of almost another € 500 Millions ( the reconfiguration cost for the A380 is around € 25 Millions per aircraft)

Somewhere in these two paragraphs hides AF's flaw. A major flaw.

Nobody can ever convince me there is a true justification for ten (10) A380 within a huge fleet. This is insane! All it is: A huge freakin' headache.

LAXintl · Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:39 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 50):
Current winter routes and frequencies are:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 2
JFK - 7
JNB - 5
LAX - 7
MEX - 3
MIA - 7
SIN - 7

For summer plan is:

ABJ - 3
HKG - 4
IAD - 7
JFK - 7
JNB - 3
LAX - 7
MEX - 7
SFO - 7
SIN - 7

Its interesting to note that AF seems to utilize the A380 as seasonal swing capacity to maximize economy seats.

For instance MIA & SFO are counter seasonal. Same with JNB & HKG, while IAD is summer only.

Frankly sounds like AF really does not have an optimal mission for the aircraft so makes best use of them by flying to markets that need the most Y class seat during their peak seasons.

FlySSC · Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 73):
Somewhere in these two paragraphs hides AF's flaw. A major flaw.

Nobody can ever convince me there is a true justification for ten (10) A380 within a huge fleet. This is insane! All it is: A huge freakin' headache.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):
Its interesting to note that AF seems to utilize the A380 as seasonal swing capacity to maximize economy seats.

For instance MIA & SFO are counter seasonal. Same with JNB & HKG, while IAD is summer only.

Frankly sounds like AF really does not have an optimal mission for the aircraft so makes best use of them by flying to markets that need the most Y class seat during their peak seasons.

It's not a secret for anybody that the A380 doesn't fit AF's needs.
AF has them because, as one of the three European Majors, they had to have it, as a sort of "symbol". the cancellation of all the options hold by AF (and LH) speaks by itself.

The A380 works well for AF on the route to JFK, LAX and that's barely it.

Since the beginning of its operations, AF has operated its A380 on several routes with more or less success (YUL, DXB, NRT, SIN …)

For the Summer 2016 season AF will send its A380 to :

LAX (Daily) SFO (Daily) MEX (Daily) JFK (Daily) ABJ PVG HKG JNB

EddieDude · Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:54 am

Let's hope MEX works for them!

LY777 · Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:40 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 75):

Wouldn't the A380 work for the MIA route in the summer, too?

BTW, you said some time ago that AF would cancel their A350s. Any news about it? What about their 787s? Will they finally take them?

[Edited 2016-02-22 03:43:07]

[Edited 2016-02-22 03:43:31]

MaverickM11 · Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:57 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 58):
And yet again, avoiding/ignoring the most important question . . .

It's your question. You figure it out.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 65):
*cough* British Airways.

AF and CDG have several new terminals, and four parallel runways, while LHR is synonymous for extreme limitations.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):
Its interesting to note that AF seems to utilize the A380 as seasonal swing capacity to maximize economy seats.

How else are they going to fill it

r2rho · Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:33 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 52):
I was judging the airframe to be ineffective for AF's network; reconfiguring it only underlines that assessment. AF has said the 380 is not a good fit for their network.

The A380 - in its current layout - is not a good fit, I agree. But why should reconfiguring it underline that? If anything, reconfiguring it to a class mix that better suits the AF network should make it more effective, not less.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 62):
So if you look at network you will see AF has to move its A380 around season to season and majoritly uses A380 for peak tourism demand period on majority of routes.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):
Its interesting to note that AF seems to utilize the A380 as seasonal swing capacity to maximize economy seats.
For instance MIA & SFO are counter seasonal. Same with JNB & HKG, while IAD is summer only.
Frankly sounds like AF really does not have an optimal mission for the aircraft so makes best use of them by flying to markets that need the most Y class seat during their peak seasons.

Both of these statements, with which I agree, point to the need for a higher Y count and thus imply that AF's current config is too premium. Which doesn't mean, as some have said, that they'll go for an all-Y tourist bomber. But maybe eliminate F, reduce J, and increase W and Y.

PW100 · Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:29 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 78):
t's your question. You figure it out.

You felt the need to bring up unsubtantiated claims. When being called upon you walk away. Nice, mature. Anet standards at best.

FlySSC · Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:44 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 77):
Wouldn't the A380 work for the MIA route in the summer, too?

No. And AF is not sending it back to MIA this summer. MIA will be served by a Daily B77W (42J/24W/315Y)

Quoting LY777 (Reply 77):
BTW, you said some time ago that AF would cancel their A350s. Any news about it? What about their 787s? Will they finally take them?

AF will get the B787 definetely, and wants apparently to get them as soon as possible.
No more information for the moment concerning the A350

mercure1 · Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:03 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 76):
Let's hope MEX works for them!

Yes lets see. But MEX was longtime and last 747 market so maybe it wont be too bad and capacity will be utilized.

Though its important to note the 747 sent to MEX at the end has no F class, and very small business class (36 seats), it was primarily a high density economy aircraft with 432 seats, so maybe again the A380 will be found to be too premium.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 77):
Wouldn't the A380 work for the MIA route in the summer, too?

I always understood that Miami peaks in the winter season from Europe

EddieDude · Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:22 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 82):
The 747 sent to MEX at the end has no F class, and very small business class (36 seats), it was primarily a high density economy aircraft with 432 seats, so maybe again the A380 will be found to be too premium.

Yes, that is my concern. BA and LH however have no problem flying four-class 747s to MEX, so they clearly see sufficient demand for F and J.

LY777 · Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:22 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 82):
I always understood that Miami peaks in the winter season from Europe

Try to get a seat in August on a CDG-MIA flight. Flights are FULL!

LY777 · Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:23 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 81):
AF will get the B787 definetely, and wants apparently to get them as soon as possible.

Great!
I was a bit concerned as they wanted to cancel them at one point

LAXintl · Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:35 pm

Miami tourism peak particularly from Europe is during winter months. Peak tourism arrivals is between January through April.

MaverickM11 · Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:39 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 79):
The A380 - in its current layout - is not a good fit, I agree. But why should reconfiguring it underline that?

Underline, not undermine. The reconfiguration is obviously to improve the performance, but it sounds like they're not sure which way to go.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 80):
You felt the need to bring up unsubtantiated claims. When being called upon you walk away. Nice, mature. Anet standards at best.

Feel better? Great. Now look up "unsubstantiated".

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 81):
No. And AF is not sending it back to MIA this summer. MIA will be served by a Daily B77W (42J/24W/315Y)

The AF 380's seats are about 17% F/J, vs this version of the 77W around 11%, while MIA has been canned several times for KL. On a related note the 380 didn't last very long on YUL, where AC puts a high density 77W that is about 7% J. For comparison EK's two class 615 seat 380 is 9% J. Have they tried the COI config to YUL, or any other more mainstream destinations from CDG?

kl838 · Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:19 am

The A380 in its current configuration is not best to serve the AF fleet, so the whole point of re configuring the aircraft is to further help it fit within the fleet. AF lost a lot of premium pax due to the management decisions to not immediately upgrade the fleet and to continue going on with a substandard product. Yet the newly reconfigured fleet of 777 are doing very well from what I heard and therefore warrant the updating of the A330/A380.

I would like to see if they implement the quick change process, it was said to be a hit and AF is continuing it this year as well. If the aircraft needs to be more high density and less premium to make a profit, I don't see the issue. AF needs to regain its image in the premium market and these new seats will help. Their La Premiere product is probably Europe's best First class product, and their business product is well in line with Asian and Middle Eastern carriers.

TedToToe · Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:31 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 65):
*cough* British Airways.

*cough*

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 87):
The AF 380's seats are about 17% F/J, vs this version of the 77W around 11%, while MIA has been canned several times for KL.

BA has used its A380's primarily on routes that were already multiple daily 744's and where frequency is not so important. So 3 x 744 became 2 x A380, or 2 x 744 became 1 x A380 + 1 x 77W. AF, on the other hand, is trying to upgauge to the A380 on a one for one basis. So, it is not just the percentage of F/J seats, it is the total F/J seat count that has increased.

Quoting kl838 (Reply 88):
The A380 in its current configuration is not best to serve the AF fleet, so the whole point of re configuring the aircraft is to further help it fit within the fleet.

Correct.

Viscount724 · Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:58 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 86):
Miami tourism peak particularly from Europe is during winter months. Peak tourism arrivals is between January through April.

That's surprising considering how most Europeans take their vacations predominantly in the summer months when schools are closed. For example France largely shuts down during August when so many residents are on vacation.

I've always found it strange that Europeans want to visit Florida in the summer when many Americans avoid it due to the heat and humidity, but since heat tends to often be lacking in much of Europe during the summer, I guess they're willing to put up with it.

tjh8402 · Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:43 am

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 20):
They could put 675 Pax and use to CUN twice a week and to MCO other 2 days and another high tourist destination.... tourist bomber is a natural usage for such a large aircraft.

TRB

While I agree in principle that a literal Air Bus is the idea use for an A380, and MCO would be a good destination for that, I don't think it's necessarily ideal for AF. If they couldn't make a 400 seat 777 work, I don't see how an A380 with even more seats solves the problem. The TATL JV with DL would seem to make ATL the prime destination for an A380. Hell, make it 4 class with 11Y and 10W and keep a small F cabin and reasonable J capacity to keep premium flyers happy. Time its arrival to work well with the DL's MCO Mickey Mouse Shuttle service. That way premium flyers can connect to whatever DL domestic flight it is that takes them where they want to go and the tourists can get their cheap ticket to MCO.

FlySSC · Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:06 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 87):
Have they tried the COI config to YUL, or any other more mainstream destinations from CDG?

During the high peak summer season, one of the 3 x Daily CDG-YUL-CDG of AF is operated with a B77W in the 14J configuration (14J / 32W / 422 Y). the "COI" appellation doesn't exist anymore…

WIederling · Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:36 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 90):
I've always found it strange that Europeans want to visit Florida in the summer when many Americans avoid it due to the heat and humidity, but since heat tends to often be lacking in much of Europe during the summer, I guess they're willing to put up with it.

Same everywhere else.
When the locals hide or do extended siesta due to excess heat
German tourists broil in the sun to a nice boiled crab red

Mostly linked to school summer holidays ( 6 weeks staggered but overlapping over June, July, August across the Bundesländer. Last year the idiots "compacted" the staggering which caused overbooking problems in the available window and massive vacancies in the remaining time. Dumb.Dumb.Dumb. more stress for everybody around.

LY777 · Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:47 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 92):
the "COI" appellation doesn't exist anymore

oh, that's interesting.
So, there is no difference in service between flights, now?

goldorak · Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:57 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 94):
So, there is no difference in service between flights, now?

In J, the difference is marginal (only for the dessert offering), but in Y, the difference remain AFAIK and that's hardly understandable from a pax point of view.

LY777 · Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:48 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 95):

Thanks
Indeed, I can't understand this policy...

LPSHobby · Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:39 pm

has Air France any plans to put A380s to brazilian routes?

FlySSC · Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 94):
oh, that's interesting.
So, there is no difference in service between flights, now?

It's not a question of service on board.
There's been a reorganization and the COI (Caraibes Ocean Indien) division has been replaced by CILA (Caribean Indian ocean Latin America)

This high Y density configuration was used only on flights to PTP, FDF, RUN, CAY, SDQ, PUJ that's why they were called the "COI" version.
But they are now also used to YUL, BKK, CUN so calling them a "COI" configuration is a nonsense

The service in Y is still different (no choice for hot meal and more simple) also because the number of F/A is also reduced on this version : 11 F/A (for 470 PAX), compared to 13 F/A on the new "Best" version 4P/58J/28W/206Y = 296 PAX)

goldorak · Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:40 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 98):
The service in Y is still different (no choice for hot meal and more simple) also because the number of F/A is also reduced on this version : 11 F/A (for 470 PAX), compared to 13 F/A on the new "Best" version 4P/58J/28W/206Y = 296 PAX)

But is the lower number of F/A more related to the very small J cabin rather to the Y one ?
And even if you have less F/A in the Y cabin, I don't see why AF cannot propose 2 choices of main course as for every other flights. A tray will be served anyway. And propose a choice of red or white wine rather than imposing the red one ?And also those flights are quite long, so it seems there is ample time to do the service.

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