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mercure1
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Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:50 pm

In employee journal Air France stated that it will seek to reconfigure its 10 strong A380 fleet effective 2018.

Airline says its current product and seat configuration mix is not idea on the craft and seeks to revamp the cabin mix for better profitability as it introduces new BEST product concept across fleet.

Current cabin mix on A380 is for 516 seats ( 9F80C38W389Y ) and it will study all options for the aircraft including a high density cabin, but under no circumstances believes seat count going below 500.

Air France estimates it will invest EUR150-200mil to refurbish the fleet once its settles on more appropriate cabin mix and product.


I did find a public article that mentions part of this news:
http://www.air-journal.fr/2016-02-17...caraibes-a380-relooke-5158156.html


It is interesting. Last year there was mention internally that maybe some 380s could be reassigned to the leisure COI fleet. Maybe this study will prompt such outcome.
It also confirms other internal sentiment that AF struggles to find appropriate use for the craft across its network. A380 is too big on many premium markets, and yet too premium heavy for leisure markets currently.
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:43 pm

Considering AF managed 478 seats on its COI 77W fleet, they could probably easily do 650 on the A380.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:04 pm

At 600+ seats, my guess is we'll find the real niche for the A380.

During it's development, it was all about how many seats could be crammed into it, but the airlines that bought it went the other way and decided that this behemoth would be better used as a prestige asset rather than a transit system for the masses...a job for which it's uniquely suited.

Just as EK led the way in making the 10 abreast, 777 cabin the standard, they are now leading the way to turning the big bus into...well...a big bus...instead of a limo.

My guess is that we can expect more of the same in the near future.
What the...?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:07 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Considering AF managed 478 seats on its COI 77W fleet

Which is 72 seats short of the maximum in a single-class configuration.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
they could probably easily do 650 on the A380.

I guess they could even go higher than that number. You can cram as many as 853 seats on the A380.
 
dergay
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):

Considering AF managed 478 seats on its COI 77W fleet,

I had the pleasure of flying on a distant holiday on one of these machines - something, I will never forget!

The holiday - I will always remember it though..............................   
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:25 pm

Which routes would they be used on though? Nearly all of AF's A380 routes (JFK, IAD, MIA, LAX, SFO, YUL, MEX, ABJ, JNB, SIN, HKG, NRT, HND, did I miss any?) are very strong premium markets, aren't they?
 
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VS4ever
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:46 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 5):
Which routes would they be used on though?

Dare I say SXM?........
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:49 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 5):
Which routes would they be used on though? Nearly all of AF's A380 routes (JFK, IAD, MIA, LAX, SFO, YUL, MEX, ABJ, JNB, SIN, HKG, NRT, HND, did I miss any?) are very strong premium markets, aren't they?

Some of those are leisure or ethnic heavy MIA, YUL, ABJ, JNB. Also Tokyo traffic is way down barely support 772/77W today.

I believe problem for AF is that the aircraft is too big and too leisure heavy on premium business markets, while having too many premium seats for leisure destinations. They are caught in middle of either having too many economy seats or having too many premium seats.

It seems to be struggle to design best mix/match to optimize for network.
Makes sense as former CEO once said the finest aircraft in the fleet was the 777 as it was most to flexible deployed across network.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:50 pm

Quoting VS4ever (Reply 6):
Dare I say SXM?........

I don't think the airport is capable of handling it. I'm not talking of the passengers side but rather the place available to taxi and turn around the bird at the end of the runway.
 
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:58 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Thread starter):
Air France estimates it will invest EUR150-200mil to refurbish the fleet once its settles on more appropriate cabin mix and product.

EUR15-20 Million per aircraft for seat changes. Not a cheap venture. Wonder how many second hand buyers will be game for this.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2):
Just as EK led the way in making the 10 abreast, 777 cabin the standard, they are now leading the way to turning the big bus into...well...a big bus...instead of a limo.

Surprisingly though AF was an early adopter of 10-abreast 777s - I believe before they received the A380. Why they chose different approaches is anyone's guess.

Quoting VS4ever (Reply 6):
Dare I say SXM?........

I would like to be on Maho Beach for that one.

tortugamon
 
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:29 pm

The A380 should be a flying flagship showcasing the best of Air France, no 650 passenger vacation specials please. The high density Caribbean special is for the 777's. AF needs to update the products on their A380's to the standards of their 4 class 77W. JFK could use a second A380 daily flight, Atlanta could be another A380 destination.

LAX, SFO, JFK, MIA, HKG, SIN, PEK and JHB should all be A380 cities.
 
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VS4ever
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:30 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 8):
I'm not talking of the passengers side but rather the place available to taxi and turn around the bird at the end of the runway.

I've seen enough videos to agree with you, but we can dream right?

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):
I would like to be on Maho Beach for that one.

I think many of us would. You'd need another 380 to bring all the a.netters to Maho to watch the other one land. Tourists? who needs them right?
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:53 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):

Surprisingly though AF was an early adopter of 10-abreast 777s - I believe before they received the A380. Why they chose different approaches is anyone's guess.

Everybody went the other way...lots of luxury amenities at the expense of cheap seats. The strength of the 380 is its floor area. There is no cheaper way to haul 600+ people, all at once, from one place to another by air than the A380. That's what it was supposed to be doing. Instead, some of them barely have more seats than AC's 77W's.


The A380 is a pure people mover. It should be used as such.
What the...?
 
LondonCity
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:59 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 12):
Instead, some of them barely have more seats than AC's 77W's.

Very true. KE's A380s are a good example. They carry just 407 passengers. By contrast AC's B77Ws carry 458 pax although they are now being reconfigured for 450 pax (eight seats are being removed from Y class to find space for the new and larger J class seats).
 
dc10lover
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:06 am

Maybe Airbus can help Air France.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:08 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):

The A380 should be a flying flagship showcasing the best of Air France, no 650 passenger vacation specials please.

It should be whatever makes AF more money. If the A380 will perform a better job for AF as high-density long-haul leisure hauler/ethnic routes-optimized aircraft, then AF should go for that.

If they could really extract a premium by configuring the A380 with larger F and J class seats with more luxuries and amenities, then that's what they should do. Apparently the latter is not the case though; otherwise these rumors would not be circulating.
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:53 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
It should be whatever makes AF more money. If the A380 will perform a better job for AF as high-density long-haul leisure hauler/ethnic routes-optimized aircraft, then AF should go for that.

  

Sounds like the model is not optimized for either segment at AF. Neither as a premium flagship, nor as a low seat cost people mover.
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pa747sp
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:33 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 12):
The A380 is a pure people mover. It should be used as such.

I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Surely any aircraft is a people mover, and the mix of F/J/Y seats is reflective of the range of markets an airline operates in. I can't see how any aircraft, per se, is better suited to more Y or more F/J. Surely that is a matter of suiting the a/c capacity and config to a market. There was a large variation in configurations for 747s, from airlines that operated them with all Y, or a small premium cabin, to others that operated them with a large amount of premium cabin capacity, and relatively small Y cabins. Why would the A380 be any different? I get that the specific operating costs are different from a 747, but I don't see how that could make them more suitable for high density Y class configs only. Airline's choices of configs is dictated by the markets they operate and getting the best match or capacity to each market.
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RickNRoll
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:43 am

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 17):
Airline's choices of configs is dictated by the markets they operate and getting the best match or capacity to each market.

And the market share they have. Is Air France market share on its routes falling or rising?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:54 am

Aren't even the current AF A380s the highest density of all A380s, apart from the regional A380 configuration introduced fairly recently by EK? A year or so ago when I checked (before EK introduced their higher density configuration) nobody was operating A380s with more seats than AF.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:45 am

They could put 675 Pax and use to CUN twice a week and to MCO other 2 days and another high tourist destination.... tourist bomber is a natural usage for such a large aircraft.

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LY777
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:35 am

I hope they won't go 11-abreast in Y!!
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:23 am

I don't think AF can use the whole A380 fleet into leisure destinations, maybe 4 or 5 but no more.

They could use them easily to few destinations like the caribbean and India Ocean, Air Austral was planning to do some very high density configuration from France flights.

SXM will be a huge hit for the photos in this web.
 
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CARST
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:26 am

It was supposed to happen. Think of the 747 which started at 9-abreast with most of the early customers and just after a few years was reconfigured to 10-abreast.

I said it after EIS of the A380, that after a few years this airplane will go to full people mover configuration. The airlines held out way longer than I had expected, about 8.5. years now since EIS. But now we see the airlines start moving, EK has opted for a regional model, AF starts making plans and I expect the other airlines to follow, too...
 
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:13 am

The march of the Accountants (background music is the Jaws theme)

Each year we see fresh horrors as more and more victims are squashed into ever receding seats. Pretty soon we will get those Japanese people squashers that push people onto trains being employed at airports.
The A380 and a few old 747's were the last bastion of proper air travel without sitting in the armpit of the pax next door. Looks like those days are numbered.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:18 am

Quoting mercure1 (Thread starter):
In employee journal Air France stated that it will seek to reconfigure its 10 strong A380 fleet effective 2018.

No surprise here, A380 reconfiguration plans were mentioned for the first time in 2014.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Considering AF managed 478 seats on its COI 77W fleet, they could probably easily do 650 on the A380.

  
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:28 am

Quoting Layman (Reply 24):
Each year we see fresh horrors as more and more victims are squashed into ever receding seats. Pretty soon we will get those Japanese people squashers that push people onto trains being employed at airports.
The A380 and a few old 747's were the last bastion of proper air travel without sitting in the armpit of the pax next door. Looks like those days are numbered.

You don't need to compromise on comfort.

Emirates went from 500 to some 630 seats on the A380 just be removing F class and reducing J class. Economy seat comfort on its two-class A380 fleet is exactly the same as its three-class A380 fleet.

Of course, AF could go 11-abreast on the main deck, achieving almost 700 seats.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):
EUR15-20 Million per aircraft for seat changes. Not a cheap venture. Wonder how many second hand buyers will be game for this.

That figure also includes the purchase of the new seats.
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Aviaponcho
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:29 am

I guess below 600PAX an A380 can still in a low density layout.
EK 2 class is above 600 PAX and still has a bar...
 
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Faro
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:44 am

Quoting Layman (Reply 24):
The march of the Accountants (background music is the Jaws theme)

Each year we see fresh horrors as more and more victims are squashed into ever receding seats. Pretty soon we will get those Japanese people squashers that push people onto trains being employed at airports.
The A380 and a few old 747's were the last bastion of proper air travel without sitting in the armpit of the pax next door. Looks like those days are numbered.

We A.nutters may not like this but it's the trend of the future...and people really won't notice the difference between 10 and 11 abreast. For leisure and ethnic travel, it's not like the plane ride is *the* single most important highlight of their trip...they just want a decent ride at the lowest cost possible...


Faro
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MaverickM11
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:44 am

Such a great plane for AF they had to spend $200MM to make it better  If they're having trouble profitably filling the 380 now, I'm not sure more seats is going to be any easier. That incremental traffic is going to be *cheap* and a lot of it will need space on flights feeding the hub, which may not have space for the cheap volume. Tough balance.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:03 am

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 17):
I don't understand the reasoning behind this.

By virtue of its humongous size, the 380 can never be a frequency scheduled aircraft. What the 380 can do better than any other aircraft, is move a lot of people, all at once. That's it's strength. If you want to move more than 450 people by air using any other aircraft type, you will be making more than one flight...and there goes any trip/CASM/whatever advantage.

It's the same for any other form of transportation. If a bunch of people want to move at the same time, you either provide a lot of small vehicles, or fewer large ones.

To some, the A380 is the ultra luxurious jewel in the crown of Airbus. To me, it's the biggest bus in the air. It seems like a waste not to use it's size to its best advantage. There are lots of options for first class, rather than being forced to travel with the great unwashed. The rich want more than just luxurious trappings; they also want to travel on their own timetable and not have to associate with those darned 99%ers.

Being biggest doesn't have to mean the most prestigious...and usually doesn't. Buses are bigger than limos but not quite as swank...and the 380 is the biggest bus of all.

I don't take that as an insult to the aircraft...(not that it has feelings). Hauling lots of people is exactly what it was designed for. It's being hamstrung by these crazy low count seating arrangements.

I suspect that just like 9 abreast 777's are becoming a thing of the past, in the next few years A380's seating fewer than 600 will be in the minority.
What the...?
 
stratocruiser
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:14 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):

Their A380 fleet is really to small to operate with 2 different configurations to fit high premium and low premium routes - 4 or 5 aircraft in each configuration would make scheduling very difficult. Perhaps they will just go for a low premium/high economy configuration for the entire fleet and configure some of their other types such as the 777 to high premium for their high yield routes.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:39 am

The 600 passenger A380 does not need 11 across seating. Even the 853 across seating can be done with 10 across on the main deck and 8 across on the upper deck, if all seats are economy class and we are still talking about 31 inch pitch and 18 inch wide seats.
The A380 can take a lot of pax without shoehorning anything. The 11 across seating would only be interesting for an airline that would look for quite a big business/first class and have still a lot of economy.
We see that Emirates increases the seat count in the A380 well over 600, keeps a largish business class and keeps 10 across with 18 inch seats for economy. Still a quite comfortable set up much more comfortable than former 777 on the run from CPH to DXB.
 
r2rho
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:30 pm

Finally. I had long been saying that AF's config is too premium, and at least several markets would support a less premium layout - maybe half their A380 fleet. Not only that, IMO AF could support more routes - and a few more A380's - with the correct cabin layout for their network.
It's not only an AF issue though, IMO there was too much of a hype by many airlines to make the A380 their super-premium flagship, when in fact not all had the route network for such a configuration. Conversely, stubbornly sticking to super-premium configs has limited the use cases for the A380.

But this is not about a high density tourist layout, and certainly not about 11-abreast. No need to go to the extremes, you are reading far too much into this.
It is about finding the right mix of cabin classes and getting the most revenue out of the aircraft. Making good use of the vast cabin config options it offers is the key to being successful with the A380. EK excels in this, some others do not - this is what Tim Clark means when he says that some other airlines "don't get" the A380.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:33 pm

And here we have the long tradition of aviation of selling spaciousness giving way to maximizing return. Add to that the challenge that both Airbus and Boeing face with their VLA, how to effectively deploy them where they actually make money and not just prestige.

The B748 has the tiniest advantage in that there are fewer seats to worry about.

The DC8 and B707 started with lounges that gave way to seating. The original 747 had the upstairs lounge and even electric pianos. Those went the way of the dodo bird. The fan boys on either side often just do not get basic economics for a business. They tout the prestige of the airframe etc. but that is a luxury few except the ME3 can afford. The planes have to be full with enough bums paying high enough fares to make a profit. God forbit any downturn which stresses the industry and then all of a sudden the economics of these birds change and once they are below the break even number of seats, they bleed cash far faster than smaller more nimbly placed aircraft.

777's are going 10 across. J class seats if not selling or being occupied by too many upgrade FF also get put on the chopping block.

I would love to know the true break even with all costs in for all of the larger aircraft. I think that figure would be truly enlightening.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:49 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 34):
The original 747 had the upstairs lounge and even electric pianos. Those went the way of the dodo bird.

So did the 9-across in Y.
 
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HALtheAI
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:55 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 14):
Maybe Airbus can help Air France.

"Sorry, no refunds."

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 30):
By virtue of its humongous size, the 380 can never be a frequency scheduled aircraft.

Never? EK seems to manage it. 6xdaily LHR, 4x BKK, 3x CDG/LGW/JED/MUC, plus countless double dailies.
 
peanuts
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:11 pm

The A380 is such a tough plane, in my book, to find that "sweet spot" for the bean counters. It's always going to be "too much" for something. No market will be ideal. It's an economies of scale nightmare with ten of them.

This dilemma sort of symbolizes the politics at Air France. Just a guess.

[Edited 2016-02-18 08:14:15]
 
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Clipper101
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:13 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 32):
keeps a largish business class and keeps 10 across with 18 inch seats for economy.

If I am not mistaken, 11-abreast also promises no less than 18-inch pax seat width; but the argument is about the reaction of passengers occupying that additional fifth middle seat in the middle row !!
 
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PW100
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Such a great plane for AF they had to spend $200MM to make it better

Right. Care to inform us how much AF spent to reconfigure their 77W fleet from 9 abreast to 10 abreast?      
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peanuts
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:36 pm

Quoting Clipper101 (Reply 38):
but the argument is about the reaction of passengers occupying that additional fifth middle seat in the middle row !!

Airlines made it work during the DC-10/MD-11 days...

Seriously. People. Don't. Care.
Just get me to that white beach please...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:00 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 39):
Right. Care to inform us how much AF spent to reconfigure their 77W fleet from 9 abreast to 10 abreast?

Their 777 fleet is 6x the size of their 380 fleet, far more versatile, and easier to fill. The economies of scale are night and day.

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 36):
Never? EK seems to manage it. 6xdaily LHR, 4x BKK, 3x CDG/LGW/JED/MUC, plus countless double dailies.

EK has tens of 380s feeding into every bank, instead of just ten total.
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par13del
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 20):
They could put 675 Pax and use to CUN twice a week and to MCO other 2 days and another high tourist destination.... tourist bomber is a natural usage for such a large aircraft.

...or they could put in 800+ seats and combine the flights, drop off 400 in MCO and the rest in CUN, why can't one stops be done on the A380?
As a certain airline CEO stated, certain airlines are just not innovative when it comes to the A380.
 
WIederling
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:29 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 42):
As a certain airline CEO stated, certain airlines are just not innovative when it comes to the A380.

AF should transfer their A380s to KLM.
Murphy is an optimist
 
r2rho
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:15 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 3):
You can cram as many as 853 seats on the A380.
Quoting LY777 (Reply 21):
I hope they won't go 11-abreast in Y!!
Quoting CARST (Reply 23):
Think of the 747 which started at 9-abreast with most of the early customers and just after a few years was reconfigured to 10-abreast.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):

Of course, AF could go 11-abreast on the main deck, achieving almost 700 seats.
Quoting faro (Reply 28):
.and people really won't notice the difference between 10 and 11 abreast.

This is not about 11-abreast, you are drawing your own conclusions here. Nowhere is 11-abreast mentioned; the article doesn't even mention high density, only a cabin reconfiguration, though a higher seat count can be implied.
This is about reconfiguring the cabin to a class mix that better suits the AF network and extracts more revenue, rather than the super-premium flagships of today. It is likely that F is reduced, or even a subfleet without F, maybe also less J, in exchange for more premium Y, for instance. All while keeping 10 abreast and not sacrificing current comfort levels.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 30):
I suspect that just like 9 abreast 777's are becoming a thing of the past, in the next few years A380's seating fewer than 600 will be in the minority.

I agree. 600-seat A380's - at 10-abreast - will become more common. There is really no pressure to implement 11-abreast because many A380's are too premium-heavy.
 
bhill
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:15 pm

Seems AF may want to start hiring those "push-me-pull-you" chaps that are used by Asian rail lines to get everyone in....

And I thought cattle cars were only used by the US Army...
Carpe Pices
 
EddieDude
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:37 pm

So, perhaps to have a better starting point for this discussion, could someone remind us of the current A380 routes served by AF? Maybe we could start analyzing (or speculating) which ones are true money-makers and which ones are routes that barely break even.
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tortugamon
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:07 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):
That figure also includes the purchase of the new seats.

Sure but second-hand buyers often need to buy new seats as well as original buyers can prevent their designs from being used. Agree there is some benefit there.

tortugamon
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:40 pm

Quoting dergay (Reply 4):
I had the pleasure of flying on a distant holiday on one of these machines - something, I will never forget!

Sure enough. However, the COI 77W in Y is exactly identical as any AF 777 in Y, 10 abreast wth no more than 32 in legroom, if that. All 777 seats are the same as far as I know, How many rows there are and how many wealthy (or lucky) folks are flying ahead in J is not relevant to the general cramped feeling of the Y cabin.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
The A380 should be a flying flagship showcasing the best of Air France, no 650 passenger vacation specials please. The high density Caribbean special is for the 777's. AF needs to update the products on their A380's to the standards of their 4 class 77W. JFK could use a second A380 daily flight, Atlanta could be another A380 destination.

Isn't that the other way aorund? With the newest products on the A380, and less prestigious products on the 4-class 777?

ATL could see more capacity, however, at relatively low yield as this is primarily a hub-to-hub route, or rather a megahub-to-megahub one. I feel that there is too much J and F for the current A380, but could use a larger Y cabin to feed all connections on both ends of the route.
JFK can support more F and J possibly, but it is to be reminded that AF regularly flies the A332 on the route outside of peak times (with no F) and one of the flights also is served by DL, usually with the A333 or 767, and hence has no F. So, F class to NYC is not everything. So adding a second A380 perhaps might work, but not while adding too much F or J.

Frankly, I could see AF going denser than the current 516 seat version, but not COI type. Rather a 3-class (or even 4 class with reduced F) with reduced J (80C right now is a LOT of seats to sell) and expanded(?) W and definitely expanded Y. Similar to the in-between configuration that they introduced after the originbal high-yield 77W and the COI 77W.
For typical mix of routes being trunk hub-to-hub + the current main high yield destinations, which would not lose much by reduced F and J offer (only might make fares higher and fewer upgrade opportunities), this might work. 10x COI, nay, I don't see it happen.
When I doubt... go running!
 
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PW100
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RE: Air France To Reconfigure A380, Study High Density

Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:10 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
Their 777 fleet is 6x the size of their 380 fleet, far more versatile, and easier to fill. The economies of scale are night and day.

No denying - although some arguments could be made, but that is not the point. You are missing the point: you were judging an airframe to be ineffective based on a reconfiguration cost number, while having no idea what the reconfiguration of the 777 fleets costs.

Exactly the same argument you used against the A380, can also be applied against their 77W fleet. But in the latter you are good enough to bring some context. Need not to wonder why such blanket statements only apply to A380.

I do wonder (honestly) if the reconfig cost per seat of the A380 is so much worse than a 77W. Thanks for avoiding the answer . . .
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