bigbird
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Southwest Hub Cities Question

Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:42 pm

I know that PHX, MDW, and LAS are the 3 largest cities in terms of daily flights. I would like to know where ATL falls in the pecking order of cities.
bigbird from georgia
 
jbmitt
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:48 pm

 
crazytoaster
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:52 pm

You can find it on swamedia


http://swamedia.com/channels/Corporate-Fact-Sheet/pages/corporate-fact-sheet

Cities, Daily Departures, Number of Gates, Nonstop Cities Served,
Chicago (Midway) 247 35 67
Las Vegas 213 24 58
Baltimore 200 28 61
Dallas (Love Field) 180 18 51
Denver 179 22 56
Phoenix 163 24 48
Houston (Hobby) 156 19 50
Atlanta 122 18 37
Los Angeles 121 15 26
Oakland 106 13 23
DEN homebase. Frequent traveler to IND and RNO.
 
ooslc
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:05 pm

^ Above is correct. Most up to date numbers from WN is:

MDW: 265 departures a day
BWI: 237
LAS: 220
DEN: 190
DAL: 180
PHX: 180
HOU: 170
MCO: 168
ATL: 126
LAX: 125
OAK: 120

Why wasn't MCO listed on the corporate fact sheet?

Source:
http://swamedia.com/channels/City-Fact-Sheets/pages/fact-sheets

[Edited 2016-02-17 14:09:34]
    Ironically, I don't work for OO anymore, and I'm not in SLC anymore. PDX based, aviation enthusiast, non-aviation worker.
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:44 am

how big are STL & BNA? curious to know those numbers, they seem to be large important connecting stations as well
 
airliner371
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:46 am

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 4):

how big are STL & BNA? curious to know those numbers, they seem to be large important connecting stations as well

There is city specific information for all Southwest airports in this link.

Quoting ooslc (Reply 3):
http://swamedia.com/channels/City-Fact-Sheets/pages/fact-sheets
 
32andBelow
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:46 am

Quoting ooslc (Reply 3):
^ Above is correct. Most up to date numbers from WN is:

MDW: 265 departures a day
BWI: 237
LAS: 220
DEN: 190
DAL: 180
PHX: 180
HOU: 170
MCO: 168
ATL: 126
LAX: 125
OAK: 120

Interesting that you need to go down to number 4-8-9 to actually get to cities in the southwest.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:00 am

I thought I remember WN slightly reducing frequencies at ATL in the past year?

Also, wasn't FL frequencies actually something like 160-175 per day around 2011-2012? If I recall correctly then WN being at 126 now is an approximate 28% drop in frequencies. Not sure of the seats because FL still had the 717's at that time along with the 737's whereas WN has 737 & 738's so seating capacity could be the same or actually more depending upon 717/737 mix several years back.

Interestingly enough if indeed WN frequencies have dropped 25+% we are perhaps seeing the slack taken up by NK? NK seems to be really trying to make a go of ATL with around 20-22 flights per day now and I believe more are coming.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
usflyguy
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:32 am

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 7):
Also, wasn't FL frequencies actually something like 160-175 per day around 2011-2012? If I recall correctly then WN being at 126 now is an approximate 28% drop in frequencies.

Here we go again... I'm pretty sure this has been covered about once a quarter since 2012.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:23 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 8):
Here we go again... I'm pretty sure this has been covered about once a quarter since 2012.

Sorry, should I not have said anything about this? I thought the poster asked about where WN and ATL fit in together in terms of frequencies? Since WN came to ATL by way of FL it seemed to me that to discuss WN and ATL frquencies one would have to talk about FL as well. But please go ahead and make a post criticizing a reply without adding any substance or data!   
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:41 am

I can't believe it took till reply 10 to point out that Southwest doesn't have "hubs" they have high connection opportunity cities   
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Lexy
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:00 am

WN at BNA is around 85 flights a day during the winter and right at 100 during the summer. Gate space is an issue here.

[Edited 2016-02-17 23:16:30]
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
a380787
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:06 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):

WN started in Texas, so for their specific definition's sake, we can lump all Texas focus cities as "southwest" even though it's more south central.

But yea it's impressive how 2 of the top 3 reside outside this definition of "southwest".
 
jetwet1
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:09 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
Interesting that you need to go down to number 4-8-9 to actually get to cities in the southwe

#3 LAS would like to point out that it is a lot more Southwest than #4 Denver.
 
badgervor
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:05 pm

Can't believe how big DEN is after only starting there in 2006. I know Stapleton was served for a while in the 80's. Does anyone know how large an operation they had there?
 
avi8
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:08 pm

Where does TPA stand in terms of daily flights?
avi8

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Mexicana757
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:14 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 15):

Where does TPA stand in terms of daily flights?

From the latest info on the city fact sheet from their website puts TPA at 113 daily flights.
 
BooDog
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:26 pm

Quoting badgervor (Reply 14):
Can't believe how big DEN is after only starting there in 2006. I know Stapleton was served for a while in the 80's. Does anyone know how large an operation they had there?

They only served Denver for a couple of years in the mid-80's, I believe they only had flights to ABQ and PHX, and the frequencies were very low. for Southwest. Maybe 3 a day?
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SurfandSnow
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:44 pm

Interesting to see how everything stacks up for WN based on the city fact sheets, which look at service levels (maximum daily number of flights) as of November 11, 2015:

MDW (265)
BWI (237)
LAS (220)
DEN (190)
DAL, PHX (180)
HOU (170)
MCO (168)
ATL (126)
LAX (125)
OAK (120)
TPA (113)
SAN (110)
STL (97)
BNA (90)
SJC (79)
FLL (78)
MCI (72)
SMF (69)
SNA (67)
AUS (65)
MSY (57)
RSW (55)
SFO (50)
MKE (48)
BUR, SAT (47)
DCA (45)
IND (43)
CMH (41)
BOS, SEA (40)
PDX (39)
ABQ (37)
ONT, RDU (34)
LGA (33)
PIT (32)
PHL (30)
BUF, SLC (28)
MSP (26)
BDL, ELP, PVD (22)
DTW, RNO (21)
OKC, OMA (19)
EWR (18)
BHM, TUS (17)
ISP (16)
ALB, CLE, MHT, PBI, SDF, TUL (15)
CUN, JAX (14)
MEM, SJU (12)
BOI, CAK, GEG, MAF, ORF (10)
CHS, ECP, LBB (9)
CLT, FNT, GRR, IAD, LIT, MBJ, ROC (7)
DAY, HRL, PUJ, SJD (6)
AMA, GSP, ICT (5)
AUA, CRP, PNS, PVR, RIC (4)
DSM, MEX, PWM (3)
LIR, SJO (2)
BZE, NAS (1)

I think people forget how big some of the Californian, Floridian and Pacific Northwest stations really are, particularly BUR, FLL, PDX, RSW, SEA and SMF. These are very important operations for WN, even more so than the likes of ABQ and RDU. I also don't think people truly appreciate how many resources Southwest has devoted to growing in primary business markets within the past 10 years - newer stations like ATL, BOS, DCA, DEN, LGA, MKE, MSP, PHL, PIT and SFO now dwarf most of their older peers in the network. Yet, even after said peers endured painful cutbacks to fund such growth, places like BHM, ELP, MHT, RNO, TUL and TUS are still doing incredibly well for themselves. You need only consider how much LCC air service these places have compared to other similar sized markets:

- BHM is not only a smaller market than GSP but also closer to ATL, yet it currently has more than 3 times the WN service (and that's before GSP is reduced to a 3x daily all-ATL operation). Granted, GSP also suffers from the proximity of CLT, but then you could start to argue that BNA is an easy drive from BHM...

- ELP, TUL and TUS all serve metropolitan areas of 1-1.2 million people, as do DAY (clearly struggling and strongly rumored to be losing all WN service) and TYS (a market WN declined to serve when it acquired FL). Another FL market that WN decided not to serve, MDT, is even larger.

- RNO, in terms of population, is smaller than the likes of ABE, BFL, CAE, CHA, COS, CRW, FWA, HSV, JAN, MOB, SBN and SYR. Inbound tourism is obviously a crucial component of the Reno market, but places like COS and MOB appeal to tourists too.

- MHT, in and of itself, serves a market of less than 410,000! Even BPT (Beaumont, TX), MCN (Macon, GA) and PIA (Peoria, IL) serve larger local markets. Lest we not forget that BPT is the only Texan market that WN has fully abandoned in its history, and before the FL hullabaloo, one of the only/very rare cases in which WN had ever ended all service to and never returned. With BOS now enjoying up to 40 daily WN flights and a bunch of other LCC service this airport is much more reliant on local demand than before and IMO even a dozen daily flights is generous when you consider when northern New England peers BTV and PWM have.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
AaronPGH
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:52 pm

n00b question. Does Southwest send connecting traffic through almost all of their cities if the routing makes sense? Or only a few "not hub" hubs?
 
topbanana
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:32 pm

Quoting badgervor (Reply 14):
I know Stapleton was served for a while in the 80's. Does anyone know how large an operation they had there?
Quoting BooDog (Reply 17):
They only served Denver for a couple of years in the mid-80's, I believe they only had flights to ABQ and PHX, and the frequencies were very low. for Southwest. Maybe 3 a day?

BooDog is exactly right. Stapleton was served from 1983-1986. The only routes served were Albuquerque and Phoenix and the operation peaked at about a total of a dozen daily departures.
Top Banana in the West. Yes.
 
avi8
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:55 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
TPA (113)

I really doubt this is true. TPA always oscillates between 70+ departures and 80 departures as far as I can remember
avi8

Medschool student
 
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knope2001
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:39 pm

Quoting AaronPGH (Reply 19):
n00b question. Does Southwest send connecting traffic through almost all of their cities if the routing makes sense? Or only a few "not hub" hubs?

They will send connections over any city where routing and flight times make sense. So there's a fair but modest amount of connecting flow over places like SLC, IND, ABQ, MKE, TPA, etc. Beneath that you'll occasionally run into a connection ffor sale over someplace like RNO, OKC, SDF but those are few and far between. The wild card isn't so much the size of the station but the routes served, especially routes to less common markets.

With more time and better data access I'd love to work what cities are banked and which are not. STL and ATL clearly have distinct connecting banks. The city I watch most closely is MKE. AirTran (including FL*) was heavily banked, and back in 2011 they handled about 1400 connecting passengers per day. Southwest doesn't bank in MKE...sometimes almost painfully so...and last year Southwest served about 325 connecting passengers on the average day in MKE without the benefit of banks. I'd love to get a feel for how banked Southwest's biggest stations are, especially those in a geographic position for some flow.
 
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knope2001
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:53 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 21):

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
TPA (113)

I really doubt this is true. TPA always oscillates between 70+ departures and 80 departures as far as I can remember

I do wonder if perhaps those numbers are the highest number of flights on a single day during the year. That 48/day for MKE seems to fit what Milwaukee sees on Saturdays during the spring break peak when WN runs 21 nonstops from Milwaukee to Florida alone. A number of them see a little high (especially if they are supposed to specifically represent November) but I wonder if maybe they mean the peak departures during any day during the year. Tampa sees a big bump on Saturdays in March, maybe up to that level?
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:56 pm

Quoting AaronPGH (Reply 19):


n00b question. Does Southwest send connecting traffic through almost all of their cities if the routing makes sense? Or only a few "not hub" hubs?

It doesn't even have to make sense sometimes. Two years ago I was routed STL-TPA-BWI-PWM on a fare that was significantly cheaper than STL-BWI-PWM. There is certainly a scheduling matrix involved which identifies lower L/F routes and attempts to fill those flight by offering connections. I get this often on longer WN flights.

Back when they were building up DEN for instance, I got a very cheap fare STL-DEN-LAS compared to the STL-LAS nonstop option or via PHX. Likewise, last year I got a much lower fare STL-TPA-SJU than connecting through MCO, FLL or ATL. The TPA-SJU portion was about 60% full.

Even as one of WN's secondary connection centers, STL has had some wildly different fare depending on the routing. It seems to be less prevalent these days, but some interesting fare differentials are still to be found.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:04 am

Using the August-November schedule published today, here is how the smaller WN stations stack up in that time frame (sorry, too hard to add up all the numbers from the biggest operations, but I would imagine they pretty much fall in line with the city fact sheet list):
BNA (88)
SJC (71)
MCI, SMF (70)
SNA (63)
AUS (58)
MSY, SFO (50)
BUR (49)
DCA (45)
SAT (44)
FLL (43.1)
PDX (43)
SEA (42)
BOS, MKE (36)
ABQ (34)
LGA (33)
CMH, IND, ONT (32)
SLC (29)
MSP, RDU (27)
PIT (25.1)
PHL (23)
RNO (22)
ELP (21)
DTW (20)
OKC (19)
EWR, PVD (18)
OMA (17)
BDL, BUF, CLE (16)
MHT (14)
SDF, TUL (13)
BHM, ISP, JAX, TUS (12)
ALB (11.1)
BOI (10)
RSW (9.1)
GEG, MAF, MEM (9)
CHS, ORF (8)
CLT, LBB, LIT (7)
SJU (6.1)
CUN, HRL, IAD, PBI (6)
AMA, GRR (5)
ECP (4.1)
CRP, ICT, ROC (4)
MBJ (3.6)
CAK, DAY, DSM, FNT, GSP, MEX, PNS, PVR, PWM, RIC (3)
PUJ (2.3)
SJD (2.1)
LIR (2)
AUA, NAS (1.1)
BZE, SJO (1)

At least these numbers take into account the small market cuts and less than daily seasonal leisure operations!
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
IPFreely
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:13 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
Interesting that you need to go down to number 4-8-9 to actually get to cities in the southwest.

Actually 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, and 11 are all in the southwest quadrant of the US, and 8 & 9 are in the south. So your statement makes no sense.
 
MaxxFlyer
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:29 pm

RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:31 am

Quoting Lexy (Reply 11):
WN at BNA is around 85 flights a day during the winter and right at 100 during the summer. Gate space is an issue here.

I haven't been down to the high number C gates in awhile. I know some airbridges were removed. Is there room to add a couple on the side facing the freight terminal?
 
Lexy
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:54 am

Quoting MaxxFlyer (Reply 27):
haven't been down to the high number C gates in awhile. I know some airbridges were removed. Is there room to add a couple on the side facing the freight terminal?

Not really because we use that as our boneyard and iceman parking, plus, it's tight with the double taxiways.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
ScottB
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:20 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
Interesting that you need to go down to number 4-8-9 to actually get to cities in the southwest.

Texas has historically been considered part of the Southwest. Southwestern University is in Georgetown, Texas; the RBOC serving Texas was Southwestern Bell (which incidentally became SBC, which eventually took over its old parent AT&T); one of the largest banks in Houston during the 1970s and 1980s was Bank of the Southwest; etc. Also, one of the two intrastate carriers in California was Pacific Southwest Airlines.

So, arguably, all of LAS/DEN/DAL/PHX/HOU/LAX/OAK/SAN could be considered as part of the "Southwest."

It's not all that different from NWA having its two largest hubs at DTW and MSP. While most consider that region the Midwest today, it was originally the "Northwest" when the states from Ohio to Minnesota were carved out of the Northwest Territory.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
- MHT, in and of itself, serves a market of less than 410,000! Even BPT (Beaumont, TX), MCN (Macon, GA) and PIA (Peoria, IL) serve larger local markets.

To be fair, the true catchment of MHT is closer to two million if not higher as the only airport with significant commercial service in the state of New Hampshire; it also attracts passengers from central Massachusetts, the Merrimack Valley, and parts of Maine. Like BPT & MCN, it does lose quite a bit of traffic to a larger airport nearby though.
 
CalTex
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:30 am

Quoting AaronPGH (Reply 19):

n00b question. Does Southwest send connecting traffic through almost all of their cities if the routing makes sense? Or only a few "not hub" hubs?
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 22):
They will send connections over any city where routing and flight times make sense.

I've found a fair number of alternative connections on Southwest, mostly in larger outstations though.

- Before DAL opened up, I made many connections in SAN flying between Northern California and Texas.
- Southern California-Pacific Northwest connections in multiple Northern California airports
- SMF-PDX, PDX-MCI-DAL (looks really great when you compare to a nonstop on gcmap.com)
- Even odder, I saw an option on that flight for SMF-PDX, PDX-HOU-DAL
- In general, connections via MCI utilizing that PDX-MCI nonstop
- I have seen a handful of connections in ABQ, mostly to DAL during the "Texas Two-Step" Wright Amendment era.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:58 pm

Sad to see CRP lose its title as WN's smallest domestic station to newcomers DSM, RIC, PWM. It was always good bar bet trivia question.  biggrin 
Historically, the Southwest has always been considered TX, NM, AZ & OK. LAS would be on the fringe of that area.

[Edited 2016-02-19 06:04:05]
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
MaxxFlyer
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:49 pm

Quoting Lexy (Reply 28):
Not really because we use that as our boneyard and iceman parking, plus, it's tight with the double taxiways.

Thanks. I figured they had a reason. Would like to see some growth, but totally understand the gate utilization issue.
 
airliner371
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:58 pm

WN has something like 33 gates at MDW. Is there really a gate squeeze right now? If they were operating 10 flights a day from each gate they would be at 330ish flights, that's quite a bit more than 265.
 
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mayor
Posts: 6218
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RE: Southwest Hub Cities Question

Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:05 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 10):
I can't believe it took till reply 10 to point out that Southwest doesn't have "hubs" they have high connection opportunity cities

Which, in ANY definition, means they ARE hubs.  
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