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uberflieger
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:42 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
AB even thinks their cost-base is lower than EW

  
Pichler says so and that has me scratching my head.

Quoting steman (Reply 44):
bad lease contracts

Yet Pichler claims lower CASM than EW? So where's the problem?

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
ABs number one problem is EY

Let's not forget AB wouldn't be around anymore without EY funds and if indeed CASM is as low as Pichler claims they should not be losing money on AUH traffic.

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
Not being allowed to develop freely within OneWorld has really stopped them from getting profitable

I was seated next to a BA sales guy for Europe on AA FRA-MIA   and when chatting about airberlin he straight out called them a competitor. Not a partner. Not a fellow OW member.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:20 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
To anyone saying this, have you ever flown on any European airline in the last five years? We have ONLY LCC-style airlines left.

AB still offers connecting flights, as does LH, BA etc.
LCCs like Ryanair usually don't - you have to claim your baggage and check it in again when you connect. But you are right in all other matters you mentioned.
 
Andy33
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 51):
AB still offers connecting flights, as does LH, BA etc.
LCCs like Ryanair usually don't - you have to claim your baggage and check it in again when you connect. But you are right in all other matters you mentioned.

Though two of Europe's major LCCs do offer connecting flights - Norwegian and Vueling both sell connections. Admittedly the two biggest LCCs, Ryanair and EasyJet do not.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:03 pm

The product on AB is okay. The infamous sandwich has been replaced by cookies or crackers, both usually of acceptable quality. You still get to chose from a selection of soft drinks and coffer or tea. They are fielding AB connect which offers a good selection of movies for European routes.

I admit they have a bot of a problem with the soft product. The personal often gives the feeling of a lower standard than what you are seeing on LH, Condor or Tuifly. But it is not bad, it is only obvious when you fly with a Nki or Belair crew to see the difference.

I see 3 major problems.

1. all long haul flights to SEA and Africa have to go via EY (flights to Thailand were a money maker from DUS for ages)
2. BER problems are hurting the badly
3. they are fighting IAG on the routes to Spain and within Spain
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:11 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 12):
Just out of curiosity - medium sized nations (by pop.) such as Taiwan and S.Korea can support 2 legacies, what's preventing Spain, Italy, or Germany from doing the same ?

Comparing to Taiwan and S Korea is a bit useless to do.

Of the 4 airlines one has the government as its largest shareholder while the other 3 are owned by large conglomerates and aviation sector or airlines is not their prime money making business.

Anyhow, I dont see need for any European country to have multiple legacy airlines. Europe consumers thankfully have incredible choice with wide options of transport choices from rail to air. Lots of LCC options, competing legacy airlines and tons of foreign airlines serving Europe.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:03 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 54):
Comparing to Taiwan and S Korea is a bit useless to do.

Of the 4 airlines one has the government as its largest shareholder while the other 3 are owned by large conglomerates and aviation sector or airlines is not their prime money making business.

Anyhow, I dont see need for any European country to have multiple legacy airlines. Europe consumers thankfully have incredible choice with wide options of transport choices from rail to air. Lots of LCC options, competing legacy airlines and tons of foreign airlines serving Europe.

Exactly. Also foreign hubs are much closer by plane or even by road/rail. Think of Paris, it is 1-hour flight from LHR, LGW, AMS, DUS, BRU, ZRH, FRA... other major hubs where to connect to the rest of the world.

Low-cost is awfully more competitive. A funny example, BCN-BER. This route is not even flown by Air Berlin (see the irony) but there is Ryanair, Vueling, Germanwings, Norwegian and easyJet!

There is nothing like that in Japan or Taiwan.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:08 pm

I had the founder/owner of AB on a flight years ago--cannot recall his name but he was riding coach! Fascinating guy to talk with, especially for an airline nut like me.

Having been through the sudden shutdown of an airline myself, my thoughts are with the dedicated employees of AB. It is very frightening to see your job threatened daily in the press. Let's hope they can pull off a comeback.
 
NH203
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:09 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 55):
Low-cost is awfully more competitive. A funny example, BCN-BER. This route is not even flown by Air Berlin (see the irony) but there is Ryanair, Vueling, Germanwings, Norwegian and easyJet!

There is nothing like that in Japan or Taiwan.

TPE-NRT is served by ANA, Cathay, Delta, China Airlines, Eva, Japan Airlines, Jetstar, Scoot, Tigerair, TransAsia and Vanilla Air.
 
hugo
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:14 pm

Similar to what others have mentioned, Air Berlin has inconsistent business strategies that have confused the market. Nobody knows what it is and consequently, I think they have never resonated with the public. Similarly, I think their name and corporate identity does not help them. I love Berlin but I do not think it gives them a particularly broad or recognizable appeal. I think a name like German Airways would probably be more "recognizable" to all their markets. Logo, livery are all so dull. If I ran Etihad, I would relaunch Air Berlin after rationalizing their routes.
 
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ua900
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
That structure won't work on international traffic rights, at least not for some destinaion countries and at the end of the day it would not meet regulatory requirements either. Not for the EU and probably not for several bi-laterals.They can try with a Holding structure but that must be owned over 50% by EU citizens. EY knew from the beginning that they are bending the rules. Now they are facing a Desaster at a time when Money is not flooding in as it used to be.

Why? EY holds 49% of AZ, AZ holds the majority of AB, EY informally tells the majority shareholder of AZ to hold still and vote their way if they want to keep jobs at AZ. Betcha government of Italy will pay closer attention than Angela.

Quoting steman (Reply 44):
If AB fails there will be a big hole to fill in TXL. Especially on long haul. It would be a shame if Berliners could not fly directly to North America and have to change plane in FRA or LHR or AMS..

EW could step into the void, great excuse for them. As for North America flights, UA just recently upgauged their 752s to 763s in the summer and 764s in the winter on TXL-EWR. I was on that flight last month, very pleasant and no need to transfer in FRA or LHR or AMS. And before someone says EWR is terrible, UA shifted the p.s. routes in October so now my EWR-LAX is guaranteed to be a flat bed seat as well.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 45):
What is their main issue, cost or yields?

It's got to be cost, their planes are full and their prices are only marginally cheaper than competitors, including legacies.

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
To anyone saying this, have you ever flown on any European airline in the last five years? We have ONLY LCC-style airlines left. Seat-pitch in Economy on AB, LH, BA, name-whichever-airline-you-want, are all the same. Service is what? The same! No more free meals, no more luxurious seat-pitch. No real business class seats. No free-checked bags in the lowst price-bucket.

I agree with you that most EU C cabin hard products are below par, but soft product in C is comparable to what you'd get in the U.S. - also, upgrade costs can be significantly less than in the U.S. - so yes, if you're flying deep discount Y all the time it's painful but so are AC Tango / DL basic economy fares.

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
From what I hear, AB even thinks their cost-base is lower than EW

Good for them, but that's probably incorrect.

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
ABs number one problem is EY. They are loosing money on every connecting pax transported for EY. Not being allowed to develop freely within OneWorld has really stopped them from getting profitable. And don't forget, that the situation for AB wasn't looking so bad before the 2009 financial crisis.

AB wouldn't exist in 2016 had it not been for EY. AB mgmt. didn't take on EY because they like them so much, but because they needed the lifeline if they wanted to stay in the air. Fly them to AUH and transfer to EY in AUH and fly onward. You'll see the difference between their product in both cabins and EY product in both cabins. oneWorld hates AB, especially BA / IB. AA will sell you tickets that involve AB, BA / IB won't. You'll have to go to AB if you want a mixed ticket that contains BA / IB segments. And not being part of the TATL JV hurts AB as much as SK not being part of A++

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 49):
EY burned so far 1 Billion € on AB, at leaqst that was the News today in Handelsblatt. I doubt that there have been enough flights on which EY yielded that amount in pro-Ratings for Pax beyond AUH.

They say there's a sucker born every minute, in this case the joke is on EY.

Quoting hugo (Reply 58):
Similar to what others have mentioned, Air Berlin has inconsistent business strategies that have confused the market. Nobody knows what it is and consequently, I think they have never resonated with the public.

Yeah, and knowing that, LH Group still heads down the same rabbit hole with EW...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:38 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 59):
Why? EY holds 49% of AZ, AZ holds the majority of AB, EY informally tells the majority shareholder of AZ to hold still and vote their way if they want to keep jobs at AZ. Betcha government of Italy will pay closer attention than Angela

Neither Renzi nor Mutti or whoever fill their Jobs in the future stand above the law. All their decisions can be challenged and revoked. Fact is that EY own far more than the famous 49% of AB and surely of AZ as well. Even if their ownership would be within the legal Limits, EY would not be allowed to run the Business. A foreign, third Country shareholer is just that.
 
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cougar15
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:43 am

I still disagree with the fact that the BER Scenario is a real cause here. They are shrinking to cut costs, if BER opened tomorrow, they would have to grow to build a decent hub operation. Growth & expansion do not cut your costs!
They were loosing money long before BER went ´ti**s up´ , fleets have been reduced & standardized, fuel is low and they are still burning Money! To me, the BER market is not huge and certainly no golden goose due to the income structure of the population.
Again, IMHO the BER issues are secondary to the real problems (which as mentioned uppost I still don´t fully understand) , except that they had better hubbing opportunity! But they had those in the past in NUE & Palma and were burning Money just as bad as they are now in those days.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:09 am

They have no Money left to do anmything but keep the presently reduced schedule going. Without EY cross signing they might not even get fuel and they are bleeding Money every day.

Wose coming to bad is the situation in leisure markets like Turkey and Egypt which could turn out to be a desaster in the upcoming summer season. While the predators starting with FR and EZY are circling over them. For a controlled Reorganisation, which could helpt to get rid of the TUI Leasing Arrangements, they would Need fresh Money. I doubt that EY would be willing to do that just to keep their Access to BER and STR while they could fly the other four destinations with or without AB..
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:31 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 49):

EY burned so far 1 Billion € on AB, at leaqst that was the News today in Handelsblatt. I doubt that there have been enough flights on which EY yielded that amount in pro-Ratings fpor Pax beyond AUH.

EY roamed in a grey area, actually a forbidden Zone for third Country carriers, something the
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Neither Renzi nor Mutti or whoever fill their Jobs in the future stand above the law. All their decisions can be challenged and revoked. Fact is that EY own far more than the famous 49% of AB and surely of AZ as well. Even if their ownership would be within the legal Limits, EY would not be allowed to run the Business. A foreign, third Country shareholer is just that.

Volga-Dnepr's subsidary Airbridge Cargo only owned 49%of Air Cargo Germany, but provided miost of the operational capital (meaning they paid their bills).
Air Cargo Germany got shut down because of this, as was effectively under control by a non-EU entity, which is against the law.

AB is also under control by a non-EU entity (if EY stops paying AB's bills, AB will be bankrupt within weeks). I wonder why in this case the German aviation authority does not act.
Maybe because ACG, at it's prime, employed only about 100 people, while AB employs^several thousands. Also there might be the fear of leaving LH alone as the only German carrier without national competition.

In the cargo business ACG competed directly with LH Cargo and, from what I have heard, LH filed the complaint with the LBA after ACG decided to operate out of FRA, which LH considers to be it's home turf.

Jan
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:24 am

I know the set-up of ACG and they operate from FRA, not HHN or like QR from LGG which has the nasty effect that they have to pay for the truck RFS.

I wonder that LH did not complain or does Vladimir threaten to nuke us if ABC is not allowed to operate here?   In practise, they could move to LGG as well and have an 8 hour truck ride to add to their cut-off times. Which is not so bad since forwarders warehouse to load on aircraft takes usually 6 hrs at FRA and that can be cut down at LGG.

But you are right, when two People do the same it is not the same.

The LBB must be on a leash since years and it is not good to Keep People from doing their Jobs.
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:47 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 42):
Says the man who touts HG as a great airline when their FA's were wearing RIPPED BLUE JEANS and semi-casual shirts on the flights I had two weeks ago LCA-VIE-DUS.

see, you remember it.... that's what it's all about! now describe the AB uniform??? i couldn't... or OS, it's red as hell... is it nice? depends what you like, but it is memorable. same for PS, JP and many others... hell, even EZY has something about it...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:52 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
I know the set-up of ACG and they operate from FRA, not HHN or like QR from LGG which has the nasty effect that they have to pay for the truck RFS.

That's one thing I don't understand anyway. E.g. when the old ACG was still operating from HHN, if I needed a loading crew or a tow truck, I would just call ground ops and have one at the aircraft within the next 10-20 minutes. But in FRA it takes up to 4 hours to get a tug (unless your name is LH). I worked on both airports, if you ask. Road time for a truck between HHN and FRA is about 1.5 - 2 hours (mostly depending if it is rush hour in Rüsselsheim, location of the Opel car factory, and Wiesbaden, only a narrow bridge, whixch has been a contruction site for years, crossing the Rhine). HHN is a lot more flexible for cargo ops, mainly due to the fact that they have no curfew. FRA might be more prestigous though. I think one reason which played a big role was that some high ranking manager's family got fed up with living in the rural region around HHN and wanted to live in a big city with all the entertainment.

As for the iold ACG, one lesson to be learned is that if you run a small airline, you must have perfectly maintained aircraft with a high reliability. The old ACG lost a lot of customers due to AOGs, mainly because some of their fleet's aircraft were worn out pieces of junk (the leasing company must have laughed all way to the bank). The new ACG, under a different management, seems to have learned the lessions.

Jan
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:06 am

At least AB does not have to worry too much about cargo, they have farmed that out to Leisure cargo and if I remember correct Leisure Cargo was sold off but the AB account stays with them. The receipt from Leisure must have vaporized in the meantime.

Traffic rights on cargo can be side swepot easier than on passenger Routings. As mentioned, simply go 60 km across the border to belgium and LGG welcomes anybody with open arms and cheap costs.and any route permission the carrier wants.

Loaded aircraft FRA to loaded aircraft HHN takes 6 to 8 hours by the way, if road traffic permitts.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:16 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 67):
Loaded aircraft FRA to loaded aircraft HHN takes 6 to 8 hours by the way, if road traffic permitts.

The obstruction must mostly be on the FRA side, as HHN is still very flexible (though they had to reduce their staff when FR reduced the number of aircraft based there). And, as I mentioned, the road time for a truck between FRA and HHN is about 2 hours (ok, more if it gets stuck in the traffic jam caused by a shift change at Rüsselsheim Opel factory).
I( know two cargo airlines, which are quite happy with HHN.

Jan
 
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cougar15
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:33 am

Guys, I am a freightdog aswell & enjoy the read, but what does all this have to do with the price of eggs at AB??
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:49 pm

Tat's why I mentioned leisure cargo and traffic rights on the freight side.   Bt it is interesting how the LBA acts when important foreign Relations are at stake. They get political Intervention that hinders them from doing their Job while a German cargo Airline gets shut down.
 
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cougar15
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 70):
They get political Intervention that hinders them from doing their Job while a German cargo Airline gets shut down.

I will definetly agree with you on that one.......
 
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eurowings
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:19 pm

10 years ago I imagined Air Berlin would become like Norwegian is now. A semi-premium LCC with bases throughout Europe and low cost services to the US and Asia on Dreamliners or A350s. I remember when they had the STN scissor hub and UK domestic flights, like they do with PMI, although even that seems to have been massively downscaled. I thought they'd be among the big pan-European LCCs. I have no idea what AB is these days, which wouldn't matter if they were making money, but they're not. The whole operation seems bizarre; Etihad, oneworld, leisure flights to Spain, Alitalia, trunk routes etc. I'm not saying they have to concentrate on one thing, but they need to find a way forward.

[Edited 2016-02-25 13:19:55]
 
Tdan
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:45 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 59):
AB wouldn't exist in 2016 had it not been for EY. AB mgmt. didn't take on EY because they like them so much, but because they needed the lifeline if they wanted to stay in the air. Fly them to AUH and transfer to EY in AUH and fly onward. You'll see the difference between their product in both cabins and EY product in both cabins. oneWorld hates AB, especially BA / IB. AA will sell you tickets that involve AB, BA / IB won't. You'll have to go to AB if you want a mixed ticket that contains BA / IB segments. And not being part of the TATL JV hurts AB as much as SK not being part of A++

The part about BA/IB not issuing tickets flying on AB metal is completely false. I just booked an itinerary directly with BA that involved a connection in TXL onto AB.
 
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ua900
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:11 am

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 65):
see, you remember it.... that's what it's all about! now describe the AB uniform??? i couldn't... or OS, it's red as hell... is it nice? depends what you like, but it is memorable. same for PS, JP and many others... hell, even EZY has something about it...

Too German of a company for HG style uniform. Which is odd because they allowed it at OS. Wonder what EW will look like, probably a lot like AB, proper, but not memorable. SU uniforms a memorable too, they should have had those in the 70s and 80s while still flying under the red star...

Quoting Tdan (Reply 73):
The part about BA/IB not issuing tickets flying on AB metal is completely false. I just booked an itinerary directly with BA that involved a connection in TXL onto AB.

Hasn't happened for me yet, maybe I just fly the wrong routes. Contrast that with a bunch of mixed itineraries on AA / BA where those two pop up completely interchangeable.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Neither Renzi nor Mutti or whoever fill their Jobs in the future stand above the law. All their decisions can be challenged and revoked.

Mutti is busy christening LH 380s and buying second hand 343s from them. Renzi got his 319 replaced by a 345 and if that leaves a bitter taste with Mutti or Jean-Claude it still won't make the 345 turn back into a 345 let alone make AZ go away. As I sad, for Italy AZ is alternativlos, unlike AB for Germany since they still have LH.
 
Andy33
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:51 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 74):
Hasn't happened for me yet, maybe I just fly the wrong routes. Contrast that with a bunch of mixed itineraries on AA / BA where those two pop up completely interchangeable.

Well yes, AA and BA would pop up completely interchangeably. That's because for transatlantic flights they are in a metal-neutral Joint Venture, along with Finnair and Iberia. So they all codeshare on each others transatlantic flights, and revenue and costs are pooled. Because it is an officially sanctioned Joint Venture they can also coordinate fares and timetables without facing competition questions, and the European airlines codeshare on AA flights within North America, while AA codeshare on connecting flights within Europe.
AF/AZ/DL/KL have their own similar transatlantic Joint Venture, and so does AC/LH/LX/OS/SN/UA. There's even a little one for DL and VS.

So we could ask why AB isn't in any of these joint ventures. But it is in OneWorld and through bookings do appear on its own and other OneWorld members booking systems quite often.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:42 pm

I am always wondered why the PMI hub was retained when joining Oneworld. I have seen it so often that the IB flight connecting through MAD arrived within an hour of the AB flight connecting through PMI. Only difference is that IB mostly had 3 flights connecting MAD to the destination airport, while AB often had one. I always wondered why AB did not move the spanish Hub to MAD.
 
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Polot
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:49 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 76):
I am always wondered why the PMI hub was retained when joining Oneworld. I have seen it so often that the IB flight connecting through MAD arrived within an hour of the AB flight connecting through PMI. Only difference is that IB mostly had 3 flights connecting MAD to the destination airport, while AB often had one. I always wondered why AB did not move the spanish Hub to MAD.

I don't think they are operating PMI as a hub per se, but rather just have a large operation there mostly catered to vacationers.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:58 am

Interesting artcile in Der Spiegel today. The Airline most interested in ABs survival is Lufthansa. Which makes sense and also explains their lack of protest/activities through the LBA.

Should AB fold up, their slots would be soaked up instantly by FR, EZY etc. . That in view, it is much better to engineer a take-over by LH, kick EY out and merge the rest with Eurowings either totally or Keep the brand alive for a couple of years.

.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:46 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 77):
I don't think they are operating PMI as a hub per se, but rather just have a large operation there mostly catered to vacationers.

They used to have a real "hub" capitalizing in how popular PMI is both Germans and Spaniards. But they closed the last Spanish routes this year, so now it is not a hub anymore.

So through PMI you could basically do any city-pair you could think of (for instance Jerez-PMI-Paderborn). They even flew to third countries; I remember my mum flying a few years ago SCQ-PMI-Milan (can't recall if BGY or MXP) with Air Berlin, and that was in low-season. So really nothing to do with vacationers.

But to me this PMI hub was a perfect example of lack of AB's focus. You could fly until last year Jerez-Palma de Mallorca with Air Berlin, but you could not fly Barcelona-Berlin... with Air Berlin (!).
 
Egerton
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:47 pm

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 15):
The title of the thread got me thoroughly confused...

Quoting uberflieger (Thread starter):
Airberlin Shares Tank

Not familiar with this slang expression, I seriously wondered what tank Airberlin is sharing, and with whom... maybe a poor fellow aircraft that had run out of fuel. Anyway back to the thread...


Nice one Buyantukhaa. It had me baffled hence only now am I viewing this thread. Maybe it would have been better early on had Airberlin shared a large tank of deep water? Or is this exactly what has happened?
 
galleypower
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RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:42 pm

It sounds a little off, maybe that´ss what´s ment...

DEFINITION of 'In The Tank'

A slang term referring to very poor performance, as in that of a security, sector or market. A security, sector or market can be considered "in the tank" once it has performed very poorly or well below expectations. A security, sector or market is said to "be tanking" while it is on its way down. An investor might say his investments are in the tank, meaning they are not doing well. Likewise, an investor could refer to her investments as tanking when the positions are deteriorating.

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