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uberflieger
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:49 pm

Rumors of Etihad taking AB private and merging the company with Alitalia is causing its shares to dive.
http://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/ak...ien-Fall-Delisting-geplant-4747086
Will add an English link when available.
 
SCQ83
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:03 pm

Alitalia Deutschland?

That is a big change from the old Lufthansa Italia 
 
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lesfalls
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:14 pm

DUS and FCO will then probably become the main hubs. I wonder what will then happen with ABs TXL operations if this happens?
 
PanHAM
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:24 pm

The barn seems to be burning, after all the news that came in over the last days like deferred payments of pilot's overtime.

Now, let's get the Popcorn out and watch the developing Story.
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:34 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 1):
That is a big change from the old Lufthansa Italia 

LH still has that random bespoke called "Air Dolomiti" that one can think of as the current form of LH Italia, even though I don't believe there's any relation between the 2. My bet is that it'll be folded into Eurowings, just like all other non-core assets.

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 2):

DUS and FCO will then probably become the main hubs. I wonder what will then happen with ABs TXL operations if this happens?

TXL and MXP+LIN would become focus cities I'm guessing ? What's next, merging Air Seychelles into SAA ??
 
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lesfalls
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):

Well with AZ involed im not sure this story will have a good ending  
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:45 pm

Quote from article (the portion that's outside paywall) :

"Air Berlin's top shareholders, including Etihad, are discussing plans to delist Germany’s second-largest airline to reorganize the loss-making carrier, Handelsblatt has learned. Closer cooperation with Italy's Alitalia may be on the horizon.

Stefan Pichler can be surprisingly blunt for a chief executive. When the head of struggling airline Air Berlin recently left an employee meeting, he astonished his staff with the admission: “I’ve got to go to Abu Dhabi now to raise money.” Abu Dhabi is the headquarters of Etihad, Air Berlin’s largest shareholder with a 29.21 percent stake.

Air Berlin, Germany’s second-largest carrier after Lufthansa, appears chronically unable to make a profit. Its 2015 loss is projected to be little changed from the deficit of almost €300 million, or $330 million, it posted for 2014.

That’s why its major shareholders have begun discussing a radical step, Handelsblatt has learned: delisting Air Berlin from the stock market. That could pave the way for a reorganization in the form of deeper cooperation with Italian national carrier Alitalia, which is 49 percent owned by Etihad and which is also struggling.

Air Berlin and Alitalia already work together via so-called code sharing, a sales partnership allowing the carriers to book seats on each other’s flights. Their frequent flyer bonus programs are also synchronized and they’ve even swapped aircraft to optimize their fleets.

The future cooperation could go much further, however. Sources close to Air Berlin said the airlines were discussing transferring parts of Air Berlin’s administration and operations to Alitalia. That would enable both airlines to cut costs significantly because many tasks could be performed in just one location."

And a little side fact snippet :

"Air Berlin has been loss-making for years: Its 2015 loss is projected to be little changed from the deficit of almost €300 million, or $330 million, it posted for 2014."
 
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Polot
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:54 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 6):
"Air Berlin has been loss-making for years: Its 2015 loss is projected to be little changed from the deficit of almost €300 million, or $330 million, it posted for 2014."

Which just truly highlights how bad AB is performing, when you consider how much lower fuel prices were in 2015 versus 2014.
 
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ua900
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:03 pm

Safe to say that AB is finally done for. EY is making a big bet that leaning on Italy will more successful than trying to lean on Germany. Maybe that 345 transfer does help  

Italy needs to retain a flag carrier more than Germany needs AB, but the Arabs are being taken for a ride here. Losses at both carriers as far as the eye can see, and close to zero prospect of EY ever being allowed ownership of either carrier.

EY can pour money into a combined entity or separate ones. AB planes can get repainted into AZ Germania or even EY Regional (which would be more honest for both AZ and AB short and medium haul). EY continues to sink hundreds of millions into two carriers that have somehow missed the boat massively. As I said, if a carrier can't make money at current fuel prices, there's a lot more beneath the surface than we know. The planes are fairly full...

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 1):
Alitalia Deutschland?

That is a big change from the old Lufthansa Italia 

Why not, EU doesn't mean constant dominance of Germany. But we all know that AZ isn't behind this transaction if it occurs. And let's remember that LH Italia branding failed, much like Deutsche BA. Not that Italy is unpopular in Germany, quite the contrary. Maybe they can serve espresso in business class as a nod to both LH Italy and OS  
Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 2):
I wonder what will then happen with ABs TXL operations if this happens?

Nothing different from what would happen to DUS. AB is a popular airline choice in both TXL and DUS, but they just can't seem to make money, not even with current fuel prices. Their brand is even more fragmented than LH, and that's quite an accomplishment. At TXL there's less C demand than in DUS, but what's really holding AB (and LH via EW) back in Berlin is that TXL remains in limbo.

BER will be better as a hub for either AB or LH, but it's many years from opening. TXL has been artificially starved of investment, but had it been properly maintained could have easily been turned into a hub as well for a fraction of what's being spent on BER.

[Edited 2016-02-23 07:08:58]
 
PanHAM
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:13 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 5):
Well with AZ involed im not sure this story will have a good ending

i share your thoughts. Minus and minus usually don't make plus, at least not in Business. Let's get a bottle of Primitivo and dump the Popcorn for lardo and parmigian,

Quoting a380787 (Reply 6):
Sources close to Air Berlin said the airlines were discussing transferring parts of Air Berlin’s administration and operations to Alitalia

Makes sense, but where will the LBA have to go to check the records? BER, DUS or ROM? Or even AUH?

I doubt that this set-up will be able to cut costsin a way to save them for good. The only matter that makes sense in the de-listing is, that AB is technically a UK Company. Make them German again or even Italian and they will be a EU Company, in case the UK commits suicide.
 
SCQ83
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:23 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 8):
Why not, EU doesn't mean constant dominance of Germany. But we all know that AZ isn't behind this transaction if it occurs. And let's remember that LH Italia branding failed, much like Deutsche BA. Not that Italy is unpopular in Germany, quite the contrary. Maybe they can serve espresso in business class as a nod to both LH Italy and OS

Maybe as an Alitalia (to America) and Etihad (to Asia) feeder... what a mess anyway.

In any case the elephant in the room for me is that really a "second legacy" in any European country doesn't really makes sense.

There is really no market need or demand for the Air Berlins, Meridianas, Air Europas, Aigle Azurs of this world. I can only see Virgin Atlantic as Delta London.
 
PanHAM
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:24 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 8):
AB planes can get repainted into AZ Germania

They would have to buy Germania as well, otherwise that part of the name would not be possible.

If they do it properly they form a holding like IAG and run AZ and AB under their brand names. Whatever they do, the tricky part will be to keep the DE-FACTO ownership under 49,9%

Which, IMHO is almost impossible.
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:29 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):

There is really no market need or demand for the Air Berlins, Meridianas, Air Europas, Aigle Azurs of this world. I can only see Virgin Atlantic as Delta London.

Just out of curiosity - medium sized nations (by pop.) such as Taiwan and S.Korea can support 2 legacies, what's preventing Spain, Italy, or Germany from doing the same ?

Isn't it a far fetched to suggest that Germany, the largest EU nation by both population and GDP, cannot support any legacy other than LH ? Granted, it's not a single-hub nation like France or UK.
 
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cougar15
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:30 pm

It´s a long slow death. I fly them a lot, I like them, but.....

Quoting polot (Reply 7):
Which just truly highlights how bad AB is performing, when you consider how much lower fuel prices were in 2015 versus 2014.

  

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):


The barn seems to be burning, after all the news that came in over the last days like deferred payments of pilot's overtime.

Sad, many say, others would fill the void, a true Statement, but I do enjoy having AB around! But, after years and years and years of losses, umpteen CEO´s not managing to turn it and the current fuel prices, I do am starting to lose faith!
Where did it all go wrong................... ?
     
 
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Polot
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:37 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 13):
Where did it all go wrong................... ?

I'd argue that it began in 2007 with the purchase of LTU. That began AB's long haul ambitions and put it on the path where they could never decide what type of airline they wanted to be (charter/leisure, LCC, slightly cheaper/less premium legacy-type carrier) that just leads to customer confusion- which is something you especially don't want when you are expanding into new territories like the Americas/Asia where you have basically no brand recognition to begin with.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:43 pm

The title of the thread got me thoroughly confused...

Quoting uberflieger (Thread starter):
Airberlin Shares Tank  

Not familiar with this slang expression, I seriously wondered what tank Airberlin is sharing, and with whom... maybe a poor fellow aircraft that had run out of fuel. Anyway back to the thread...
 
uberflieger
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 6):
Quote from article

Thank you for the English transcript. Simply too busy.   

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 13):
starting to lose faith

So do the sheiks  
 
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cougar15
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:51 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 14):
I'd argue that it began in 2007 with the purchase of LTU. That began AB's long haul ambitions and put it on the path where they could never decide what type of airline they wanted to be (charter/leisure, LCC, slightly cheaper/less premium legacy-type carrier) that just leads to customer confusion- which is something you especially don't want when you are expanding into new territories like the Americas/Asia where you have basically no brand recognition to begin with.

Fair Points, but heck, LH, BA, KL also use excess capacity for cheap charters, especially on W/E´s and make Money doing so. LTU was a basket case from day one. And that mentality still seems to exist! I was very dissapointed with the service levels on an AB 330 in J from AUH-HKT recently.
Especially after the first sector was with EY, jumping on the old LTU... aehm, sorry AB Bus was - well, dissapointing! Hard product is simmilar, soft was bloody terrible!
But each & every one of their flights I take in Europe is full. service is in line with what you expect from the ussual intra EU flights. Surely labour costs will not exceed legacies (LH as an obvious example - infact most AB cabin crew are outsourced and have been for years), so what are they doing? The whole hybrid thing I am sure is an issue, but the problems must lie much deeper! There are plenty of carriers out there with high Labor & social costs, yet they seem to do okay.
I don´t understand what the heck the real underlying & fundamental problem at AB is?
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:00 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 16):

Quoting a380787 (Reply 6):
Quote from article

Thank you for the English transcript. Simply too busy.   

OH hehe it's a different article I found on Google News, so it's not a direct translation per-se =)
 
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cougar15
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 16):
So do the sheiks

well, depending on what language you speak, that one could have a bit of a double meaning !   But I agree, at present it really is sheiks.... even for the sheiks!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:10 pm

It would be a sad day if they'd disappear. Hopefully they'll find a way to turn the business around. And keep the nice livery, and the good service... and my connections from Helsinki via Berlin...
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:13 pm

If AB were to fully merge into Alitalia instead of being an independent subsidiary, I also expect implications to alliance membership. If I were to bet, Skyteam is the winner and oneworld is the loser.
 
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Polot
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:16 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 17):
Fair Points, but heck, LH, BA, KL also use excess capacity for cheap charters, especially on W/E´s and make Money doing so.

Yes, but their main bread and butter image is that of a premium carrier and that is what most people know them as. You highlighted AB's problem right in your post:

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 17):
Especially after the first sector was with EY, jumping on the old LTU... aehm, sorry AB Bus was - well, dissapointing! Hard product is simmilar, soft was bloody terrible!
Quoting cougar15 (Reply 17):
But each & every one of their flights I take in Europe is full. service is in line with what you expect from the ussual intra EU flights.

They are too inconsistent, and change their strategy too much that nobody knows what it is. Remember when AB was suppose to be a LCC? Now apparently they are full service. But only on some of their flights! Some of their A332s are proper 2 class...while others are all economy. It just confuses your average consumer, they are not sure what level of service they are actually getting for their price as AB has varied it so much over the years. So the only way to get butts in the seats is deep discounts...but remember AB is suppose to be a full service carrier now and not an LCC! BA/LH/KL etc can charge premiums, especially on intercontinental sectors, because passengers expect more premium service from them versus say Ryanair. Nobody knows what to expect from AB so they only select them if they are cheap, but AB doesn't have the cost base to support really cheap while being a full service intercontinental carrier.

Contrast them to DY. DY is an established well known LCC in Europe. When they went longhaul they stuck to being an LCC- being mostly Y but having a very modest and dense (for a modern premium cabin) premium class that they could upsell. They stuck to what they and their customers know and expected from them. They didn't suddenly decide, for example, that they wanted to be a premium carrier on par with the legacies. They didn't decide that they were a charter carrier targeting beach markets.
 
PanHAM
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:19 pm

LTU was the "national" Airline of Duesseldorf but that Nimbus they had ony as Long as the Conle Family more or less owned that Company. Air Berlin 's DUS Operation still lives off the LTU legacy. But it is not the same when a former Family owned Enterprise fall into the Hands of Investors. In Addition to that, Airlines and Airports are related firstly with noise and not with the prosperity they bring to a Region.

The question was, why Korea and Taiwan can Support 2 national carriers and Gerany can't. The answer is, besides what I said before, they do ot receive the Support, instead they get stumbling Stones thron into their way. In case of AB, the drama around the new Berlin Airport is not helpful either. OTH, they get government Support in a way that the LBA does not act. The watchdog is not allowed to get out of the hut and Close AB down, which, IMHO, they could do today rather than tomorrow. The rescue operation by EY to save their Investments is proof enough.
 
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cougar15
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
The question was, why Korea and Taiwan can Support 2 national carriers and Gerany can't. The answer is, besides what I said before, they do ot receive the Support, instead they get stumbling Stones thron into their way. In case of AB, the drama around the new Berlin Airport is not helpful either. OTH, they get government Support in a way that the LBA does not act. The watchdog is not allowed to get out of the hut and Close AB down, which, IMHO, they could do today rather than tomorrow. The rescue operation by EY to save their Investments is proof enough.

agree with most of your post, but is BER really so critical? I don´t see the market (little Y/ Business traffic, lot´s of low income). DUS must be much more important to them surely? and I think the fundamental & underlying problems at AB were around (and have not changed, infact... gotten worse) long before Klaus & Co stuffed up BER!
 
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seahawk
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:33 pm

I do not think this is the problem. Load factors are good, service is okay, if you igonore the longhaul flights AB is okay in every sense. They just bleed money and imho it is their lease contracts that are killing them.
 
galleypower
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:19 pm

ABs cost base is just too high. Tomorrow I fly TXL MUC on AB. 45€ OW. Thats an ok price for Ryans cost base but AB will lose money on my ticket. The EY add on wont help either. If you feed SR to LR say EY the fare part for the SR feed is peanuts. Better not to feed but sell your own ticket. This whole EY business just messed things up. AB was not allowed to be what they needed to be to survive.
 
georgiabill
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:28 pm

I would ask if Airberlin's financial issues are self inflicted? The delay in the new Berlin airport must also be impacting them as well significantly. However I can understand canceling their 787 orders for A330'S. I suspect they were cheaper to buy and available sooner than the 787'S. What I have a hard time understanding is replacing a relatively young 737NG fleet for A320'S. Granted I think adding A321'S would be a better long term investment than the 737-900ER'S. Especially if longer range routes was required. However I think the 737-900ER would have been fine for short to medium haul routes and would have allowed a one fleet type rating. Or would the 737-900ER in Europe require a separate rating? Just asking as I do not know all the european regulations? If not then assuming routes of 2 to 3 hours I would think the 737-900ER would be fine and have allowed a single narrow body fleet.

This not intended to bash airbus or boeing. As an aviation geek the more companies and countries developing airliners and aircraft the happier I am.

your thoughts?

GeorgiaBill
 
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ua900
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:30 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 24):
is BER really so critical? I don´t see the market (little Y/ Business traffic, lot´s of low income).
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 20):
and my connections from Helsinki via Berlin...

For O&D there's a ton of Y demand and comparatively little C demand. But look at AirlineCritic and his post. AB had much more to loose from the BER than say LH. Ahead of the planned opening, they started to focus more on connections and in theory AB is at a good price point to chase connecting business traffic. Look at the mess at "Terminal" C that occurs every morning and you'll see that AB could use BER much more than a couple EW 330s that LH Group might base at BER eventually.

Quoting georgiabill (Reply 27):
The delay in the new Berlin airport must also be impacting them as well significantly. However I can understand canceling their 787 orders for A330'S. I suspect they were cheaper to buy and available sooner than the 787'S.

        

Quoting georgiabill (Reply 27):
Granted I think adding A321'S would be a better long term investment than the 737-900ER'S

Not that many 739 operators aside from KL and TK in the EU, but they seems to work well for them in whatever niche they slotted it. 321s work well for LH and other EU carriers and there are a ton of 738s. For AB going with Airbus might have been part of a larger package for cost savings.
 
lancelot07
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:15 pm

Now i wonder how a 29% shareholder can take a company private and merge it with another company where they have 49%.
EY will need a majority for the merger. And they can't own a majority in either company.
 
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thekorean
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:20 pm

Merge JU, AZ and AB and dump truckload of money in front of Willie Walsh's house.
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:24 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 29):
Now i wonder how a 29% shareholder can take a company private and merge it with another company where they have 49%.
EY will need a majority for the merger. And they can't own a majority in either company.

They're not. They're shrewdly attempting to use Alitalia as the EU vehicle to swallow AB (which is perfectly allowable under EU rules). It's AZ buying AB and "buying out" EY's share in the process.

Now, whether the regulators would see through this facade of a backdoor transaction is up to them.
 
PanHAM
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:35 pm

Yes, but for that coup they Need a majority in AZ as well which EY does not have. The Regulators, especially in Brussels, must step in and investigate this Transaction.

As much as I would hate to see AB go, bu what we are watching here is a blatant ignorance of European corporate law and of aviation rules and regulations as well.
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):

Yes, but for that coup they Need a majority in AZ as well which EY does not have. The Regulators, especially in Brussels, must step in and investigate this Transaction.

I don't believe they're buying a majority of AZ. They're using their back-hand to "influence" AZ to buy out AB.

So in the end looks like this :

EY own 49% of AZ, AZ owns 100% of AB, and in the process, transferring 29.2% of AB shares from EY to AZ ("the privatization buyout"). AZ is acting as the off-shore shell entity to their bidding.

So by technicality, EY is not involved in the transaction, but they're running both AZ and AB with puppet strings.
 
PanHAM
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:45 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
I don't believe they're buying a majority of AZ. They're using their back-hand to "influence" AZ to buy out AB.

EY does not have a majority in AZ and the cannot buy a majority in AZ by law, but they are acting as if they had a majority in AZ as well as in AB. They are indeed, as you say in the last sentence, pulling the strings. But they are not allowed to do that, hence the EU Mergers and acquisitions board must step in.
 
lancelot07
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:50 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
They're not. They're shrewdly attempting to use Alitalia as the EU vehicle to swallow AB

They still need a majority at both shareholder meetings, maybe even >75% of the votes.
And they can't simply apply pressure by canceling their loans. Merging the companies is difficult enough,
but getting consent for taking the merged company private ??
That seems highly unlikely, simply because it is not in the interest of the other shareholders. And those are the majority.
 
a380787
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 35):
They still need a majority at both shareholder meetings, maybe even >75% of the votes.

That's not too tall an order. If 3/4 is the threshold to meet, they're 2/3rd the way there at AZ and over 1/3rd the way there at AB.

The toughest challenge, as PanHAM pointed out, is for them to sell this plan to EU regulators without flashing every single red alarm possible.
 
Hagic
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:01 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Thread starter):
Airberlin Shares Tank

I thought you were saying Airberlin is sharing fuel tanks for other purposes or to other people.
 
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ua900
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Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:38 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 30):
Merge JU, AZ and AB and dump truckload of money in front of Willie Walsh's house.

They already dumped a 345 in front of Matteo Renzi's house and maybe EY can do LUX-NYC for free for a couple of years to create goodwill with Jean-Claude Juncker  
Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 29):
Now i wonder how a 29% shareholder can take a company private and merge it with another company where they have 49%.
EY will need a majority for the merger. And they can't own a majority in either company.
Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
Yes, but for that coup they Need a majority in AZ as well which EY does not have. The Regulators, especially in Brussels, must step in and investigate this Transaction.

No need for all that. Here's the structure:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
EY own 49% of AZ, AZ owns 100% of AB, and in the process, transferring 29.2% of AB shares from EY to AZ ("the privatization buyout"). AZ is acting as the off-shore shell entity to their bidding.

Shell entity is right. Everyone knows it but no one says it. There should be a open debate on what's more important, either openly say that you want to preserve jobs at AB, AZ and JU or openly say that you don't want the commitment from outside players.

[Edited 2016-02-23 15:39:43]
 
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Ty134A
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:00 am

AB has one problem: it is a flying depression! to the normal customer, every other airline stands for something. HG aka Niki was recognizable to everybody, children loved the "fly". LH stands for germany, tradition, same as BA, KL and other flag carriers. LX for switzerland and their nice german accent. condor gets you to your holiday... easy jet are the orange ones and ryan air the ones that are cheap and cost more in the log run... the product among all carriers is basically the same, with minor differences. but they all have something unique...

and then there is AB, boring uniforms, red and white airplanes with a logo that means what exactly? crews are strange (compared to the Niki ones, to say the least) and don't feel like having to overperform. ther customer service is a ripoff, there are documentaries on AB and them ripping off passengers. There are drinks or not, there are sandwiches or not, the service is not consistent. the planes inside are dull, undistinguishable. AB is depressing, and can't get rid of this feeling. what they did to niki was a crime actually, that started with repainting the fleet into this disgrace. there is nothing to AB, and this is the fault of the management in the first place. AB consists of people not burning for aviation. and the ones that do, try to get along with the management and not get into problems. the mentality is: i do my job, leave me alone... and this is the reason why AB gets killed by EZY, FR and any other airline taking them on.

if you don't have a passion for the things you do, you will fail. and AB seems to be full of people of this kind in the wrong places in the management, maybe in the cabin as well....

i flew on small airlines, with shabby old planes that nearly fell apart. kitchens were half inop, and the return catering was stored in a cooling box i the last row. the planes were often full, legs short and passengers unfriendly. but the crews performed that it was just fascinating. the average passengers didn't give a damn, but rather took what they got, but to me as enthusiast, this was pure magic. and after talking to the crews, one got an idea how an airline can work, and what it is worth if crews identify themselves, and management motivates them. in one occasion they even had a book aboard, where passengers wrote some short notes to say "thank you". these books, so they told me, are read by the management and positive impressions are shared among the employees. now this was a small airline, but still shows what is possible... and this is anti AB!

in the end, AB won't even be missed if they are gone... there will be no emotions after their disappearance, and this is sad but true!

i may be mistaken, but this is my feeling i had with them after many flights, both on AB and HG, international and inter EU.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10866
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:49 am

My flight with them is due to be in May.

Not sure what the odds of them still is.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22884
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:04 am

Wow... AB's equity alliance is getting costly!

Quoting ua900 (Reply 8):
Italy needs to retain a flag carrier more than Germany needs AB, but the Arabs are being taken for a ride here. Losses at both carriers as far as the eye can see, and close to zero prospect of EY ever being allowed ownership of either carrier.

That is probably the bet.

How much money is EY willing to lose? EK is well run and a profit monster. They had better get the alliance in the black...

Lightsaber
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2639
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:40 am

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 39):
and then there is AB, boring uniforms, red and white airplanes with a logo that means what exactly?

Says the man who touts HG as a great airline when their FA's were wearing RIPPED BLUE JEANS and semi-casual shirts on the flights I had two weeks ago LCA-VIE-DUS. Probably the most unprofessional looking FA's I have ever seen.

Here's hoping AB can survive...through Easter weekend so I can get my final two flights on them.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:56 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 38):

No need for all that. Here's the structure:

That structure won't work on international traffic rights, at least not for some destinaion countries and at the end of the day it would not meet regulatory requirements either. Not for the EU and probably not for several bi-laterals.

They can try with a Holding structure but that must be owned over 50% by EU citizens. EY knew from the beginning that they are bending the rules. Now they are facing a Desaster at a time when Money is not flooding in as it used to be.

It's the old joke, how can you make a small fortune with an Airline? Invest a big fortune. Applies for countries as well.
 
steman
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:12 am

Quoting georgiabill (Reply 27):
I would ask if Airberlin's financial issues are self inflicted? The delay in the new Berlin airport must also be impacting them as well significantly. However I can understand canceling their 787 orders for A330'S. I suspect they were cheaper to buy and available sooner than the 787'S. What I have a hard time understanding is replacing a relatively young 737NG fleet for A320'S. Granted I think adding A321'S would be a better long term investment than the 737-900ER'S. Especially if longer range routes was required. However I think the 737-900ER would have been fine for short to medium haul routes and would have allowed a one fleet type rating. Or would the 737-900ER in Europe require a separate rating? Just asking as I do not know all the european regulations? If not then assuming routes of 2 to 3 hours I would think the 737-900ER would be fine and have allowed a single narrow body fleet.

The A330s were already there, they haven´t been ordered "instead" of the 787s. The Boeing 787 were meant to replace the A330s. AB got rid of the few leisure configured A330-300 and standardized on the -200s. I have flown on a -300 from Stuttgart to PMI in 2012 and it was the first time I´ve seen a widebody withouth overhead bins on the centre of the ceilings but only on the sides.

The 737s were a legacy of the agreement with Hapag Lloyd Express, if I´m not wrong. They are leased at unsustainable high rates, that´s why AB has decided to slowly get rid of them when leases expires and concentrate on the A320s. That wasn´t a statement against the 737. It was a problem of bad lease contracts.

I really do hope AB will make it and will survive till BER finally opens. That will give them a big chance to grow and improve their overall service and image.

However one must be realistic. If AB fails there will be a big hole to fill in TXL. Especially on long haul. It would be a shame if Berliners could not fly directly to North America and have to change plane in FRA or LHR or AMS..
Maybe Norwegian could start long haul operations from Berlin
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3422
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:26 am

This is such a shame to see them struggling so much. I flew them just this past November ORD-TXL-ORD, the cabin was nice with updated interiors with AVOD, the crew was friendly, and the soft service respectable. I hope they find their footing.

What is their main issue, cost or yields? I agree with the comments that their hybrid LCC market positioning is problematic, but with fuel this low, making money as an airline should not be this difficult.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:29 am

Quoting polot (Reply 22):
Contrast them to DY. DY is an established well known LCC in Europe. When they went longhaul they stuck to being an LCC- being mostly Y but having a very modest and dense (for a modern premium cabin) premium class that they could upsell. They stuck to what they and their customers know and expected from them. They didn't suddenly decide, for example, that they wanted to be a premium carrier on par with the legacies. They didn't decide that they were a charter carrier targeting beach markets.

Slightly puzzled. Norwegian operate large numbers of charter flights from Scandanavia and the UK to beach markets on behalf of tour operators, as well as LCC flights to beach markets. This is yet another way in which Norwegian are different from other European LCCs, and it seems to work for them, so it could work for Air Berlin, but doesn't.
 
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CARST
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:51 pm

I always wonder what you are all talking about when saying AB is a hybrid-model between LCC and full-service-airline.

To anyone saying this, have you ever flown on any European airline in the last five years? We have ONLY LCC-style airlines left. Seat-pitch in Economy on AB, LH, BA, name-whichever-airline-you-want, are all the same. Service is what? The same! No more free meals, no more luxurious seat-pitch. No real business class seats. No free-checked bags in the lowst price-bucket. Pay for everything extra in that price-bucket. I am describing LH and BA here! And AB. But they are not different than any other major European airline.

From what I hear, AB even thinks their cost-base is lower than EW and they are wondering how EW wants to make money by offering even lower fares than AB.

ABs number one problem is EY. They are loosing money on every connecting pax transported for EY. Not being allowed to develop freely within OneWorld has really stopped them from getting profitable. And don't forget, that the situation for AB wasn't looking so bad before the 2009 financial crisis. They had a lot of bad luck that right after they bought all the other German airlines (except LH) all sources for cheap money weren't available anymore due to the crisis. Then came EY and everything went down the drain...
 
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Aquila3
Posts: 601
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:18 pm

RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:12 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
a bottle of Primitivo and dump the Popcorn for lardo and parmigian

Fine tastes, my compliments...  
About the topic, I do not know if it is true, but consolidation is the name of the game there, and might work somehow.
There can be a market in the folds left over from LH , AF and BA and somebody in ME can try to exploit it.
Agreed that with AZ involved the story is against the bet.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Air Berlin Shares Tank

Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 47):
Then came EY and everything went down the drain...

EY burned so far 1 Billion € on AB, at leaqst that was the News today in Handelsblatt. I doubt that there have been enough flights on which EY yielded that amount in pro-Ratings fpor Pax beyond AUH.

EY roamed in a grey area, actually a forbidden Zone for third Country carriers, something theQuoting Aquila3 (Reply 48):
Fine tastes, my compliments...


Thanlks, Salami as well of course  

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