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AirbusCanada
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Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:43 am

Boeing said in a memo to employees that the company is deciding whether to make voluntary layoffs available to those workers, according to the document.

The company also said it does not intend to replace higher-level employees who leave, except in rare situations.

"We do not intend to backfill for people who retire from their executive or management0 roles unless the position is absolutely vital to carrying out our work statement," said the memo, signed by Mike Delaney, vice president of engineering at Boeing Commercial Airplanes.

The internal announcement comes two weeks after Ray Conner, chief executive of Boeing's airplane business, warned employees that job cuts were necessary to "win in the market, fund our growth and operate as a healthy business."



Full article: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-layoffs-idUSKCN0VZ2U2
 
mwhcvt
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:09 pm

Things must be worse than reported for Boeing at the minute, is this an effect of not currently making money on 787 still, and losing the margin they had their cash cow lines in the 737 and 777 because of trying to sell bridging slots until the new MAX lines start producing...cash flow must really be hurting but you'd think that the Military work should keep them buoyant...as the last thing they really want to do is lose their knowledgable design teams when the really need to be considering what replaces the 737 long term
 
Flyglobal
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:52 pm

Quoting mwhcvt (Reply 1):
Things must be worse than reported for Boeing at the minute, is this an effect of not currently making money on 787 still, and losing the margin they had their cash cow lines in the 737 and 777 because of trying to sell bridging slots until the new MAX lines start producing...cash flow must really be hurting but you'd think that the Military work should keep them buoyant...as the last thing they really want to do is lose their knowledgable design teams when the really need to be considering what replaces the 737 long term

Definitely its a bad sign. Typically the engineering folks is what you cut last.
You begin with contracted folks in engineering who do not get their contracts extended.
Then you continue not to replace regular retirements.

For the ones who know: Is Boeing's engineering staff really kind of fat?

What happens when the conclusion is that a new Narrow Body is required?

Hope they keep their key skill sets.

I saw a comment from Tom Enders Airbus some time ago where he said that over time they will also reduce their engineering folks a bit from the peak they had, but only by natural fluctuation.

Flyglobal
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 2):
the engineering folks is what you cut last.
You begin with contracted folks in engineering who do not get their contracts extended.
Then you continue not to replace regular retirements.

Layoff season occurs just about every time a new airplane enters flight testing since most of the engineering work is done. Boeing tends to cut engineering first and not last.
 
Flyglobal
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:47 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 3):
Layoff season occurs just about every time a new airplane enters flight testing since most of the engineering work is done. Boeing tends to cut engineering first and not last.

Oh yes, it is a remarkable difference between European and US Companies.
One can debate what is better and what not.

The difference is that US Companies tend to see the engineering staff as one of many cost elements only, while European companies in a broarder sense see the core engineering staff rather as assets as well. For temporary peaks in engineering needs there are engineering companies where you can lease the peak needs.

Flyglobal
 
ZKCIF
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:00 pm

Is this an indication that Y1 and Y3 are likely to happen only in the very distant future?
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:27 pm

Quoting mwhcvt (Reply 1):
as the last thing they really want to do is lose their knowledgable design teams when the really need to be considering what replaces the 737 long term

Not if you buyout Bombardier for the C Series and expand it out to CS500 and CS700s using their design team.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:29 pm

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 5):

Is this an indication that Y1 and Y3 are likely to happen only in the very distant future?

The way that layoffs work is that only a very small percentage of people actually get terminated and involuntarily laid off. A significant number will transfer to different engineering groups within the company. Attrition and retirement speed up with voluntary layoffs, but in general many people get redeployed. Layoffs are done group by group. One group may be laying off while others are hiring. For example right now engineering work on the 787 and 737MAX are shrinking, the 777X is peaking and product development is probably exploring new ideas and may be growing.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 4):

One can debate what is better and what not.

The difference is that US Companies tend to see the engineering staff as one of many cost elements only, while European companies in a broarder sense see the core engineering staff rather as assets as well. For temporary peaks in engineering needs there are engineering companies where you can lease the peak needs.

Flyglobal


I don't think the employees think it is better. It is also not the way every company works in the United States. There have been quite a few articles about the employee union vs management opinions of each other and how well they negotiate.

[Edited 2016-02-27 06:31:43]
 
mwhcvt
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:38 pm

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 6):

That's a possibility but I some how don't see it happening that way myself
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:56 pm

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 5):

Is this an indication that Y1 and Y3 are likely to happen only in the very distant future?

Its best at this point to view Y1, Y2, Y3 as general studies into each market and to develop technologies and concepts for each. None of them will ever see hardware as planned at the start of the program. The 737RS wasn't even really Y1, and thats dead. The MoM idea is now supported by the 737NEO for smaller frames and shorter missions so it can be bigger than Y1 was planned to be.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:05 pm

Does "voluntary layoff" come with a severance package? Otherwise, why volunteer to be laid off? If you have another job you simply leave. If you're ready to retire you simply retire. Or do they expect some people to be martyrs to for the benefit of the company and/or their co-workers? Given the memo says the positions will not be back-filled, isn't leaving only going to increase the burden on your co-workers?

Quoting mwhcvt (Reply 1):
as the last thing they really want to do is lose their knowledgable design teams when the really need to be considering what replaces the 737 long term

US management doesn't think that way. They see a body as a body. They always speak in terms of 'headcount' never in terms of skills. They feel that when someone knowledgeable leaves someone else is going to fill in seamlessly, usually at lower pay/benefits, usually off-shore. They never factor in the fact that those working off-shore at lower rates have much less incentive for the company to succeed because they know they'll only be in the position for a short time.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:48 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 3):
Layoff season occurs just about every time a new airplane enters flight testing since most of the engineering work is done. Boeing tends to cut engineering first and not last.

They did much the same right after completing the 777.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Does "voluntary layoff" come with a severance package?

Yes - usually a quite generous one. Boeing ended up losing more senior engineers than they planned in the post-777 layoff because of it.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:00 pm

How many of them will find home in Mobile? Good opportunity for Airbus to get good people.
 
packsonflight
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:24 pm

Looks like Boeing is not really planning any further wing job for the MAX
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:39 pm

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 2):
Typically the engineering folks is what you cut last.

  . Boeing made 'rookie' mistakes on the 787 as they laid off too many senior engineers. I had to jump from my last job as a very senior engineer as I was 'too expensive.'. Thankfully my employer wised up and asked a number of us if we would come back.

Lightsaber
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:08 pm

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 2):
For the ones who know: Is Boeing's engineering staff really kind of fat?

Not even close to being fat. It's almost the opposite in a lot of areas. People are spread too thin in some places.

I always get offended when I hear the term "Lazy B" because that is not the case at all anymore. Pretty much everyone works hard and people work overtime, if necessary (which adds costs too). Slackers aren't tolerated.
 
dc10lover
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:30 pm

Can Boeing afford the pensions of retired workers? This may / may not be a part of Boeing's troubles. Without Boeing and the like, Seattle would be like Detroit. Seattle would be a very depressed city (economic wise).
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Does "voluntary layoff" come with a severance package?

Yes - usually a quite generous one. Boeing ended up losing more senior engineers than they planned in the post-777 layoff because of it.

My company did a similar kind of mistake, but I was told it's hard for the company to 'pick and choose' which employees take a voluntary severance. It can end up generating all kinds of law suits. So they have to come up with some blanket policy (everyone over age X with Y years of service can apply for the package) and even though they say it's an application they more or less have no choice but take everyone who qualifies. The other thing they can do is not make the packages so generous but that doesn't really prevent the more desired employees from taking them (because these folks know they can get another job pretty quickly) whilst the less desired employees might be happy to take any sort of a package.

I've been told my company will never do volunteer severances again because of these issues. Of course 'never' is a long time. I fully expect them to do more in the future.

Another issue I saw is that once person X says they're taking the package then others realize they're going to get more work dumped on them so that makes them more likely to decide to take the package too. That kind of thing snowballed to the point that some functions were seriously depleted.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Can Boeing afford the pensions of retired workers? This may / may not be a part of Boeing's troubles. Without Boeing and the like, Seattle would be like Detroit. Seattle would be a very depressed city (economic wise).

Got news for you Boeing IS leaving Seattle, slowly but surely. No reason to stay. The state's political class is not working the (in Boeing;s mind at least) and King County is just about one of the most expensive areas in the US to live. If Boeing can't pay the going freight to attract new employees as it move into the next decade you shut off lights as the part is over.

Ray Conner in his message to the Boeing employees made it clear that to stay competitive Boeing has to reduce employee costs. Nothing else matters at this hour.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:44 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
Boeing made 'rookie' mistakes on the 787 as they laid off too many senior engineers.

Yes. I'm sure I remember reading an interview with McNerney where he admitted that this had been a big mistake by Boeing, and a lesson had been learnt.

Let's hope that Muilenberg hasn't gone and un-learnt it. They're definitely going to need experienced people if they decide to do an all new MOM or NSA anytime soon.
 
nikeherc
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:53 pm

What you have to do is keep costs competitive. Boeing wants the right number and right kind of engineers. The 787-10 is nearing production and the 777-X well underway in design. The MAX is being assembled. You don't need as much design and you need more manufacturing support. You adjust to the times.

Most of these programs offer an attractive settlement package. The rules also state how many you want to go and where. I had 35 years at my previous employee and was offered a year and a half's pay. The packages are offered and accepted in order of seniority.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:05 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 18):
Got news for you Boeing IS leaving Seattle, slowly but surely. No reason to stay.

The sky is falling. Not. I don't believe this. You seem to forget they are investing in a huge new 777X wing assembly plant in Everett. The 737 Max will be built in Renton.

Also, most of the areas where Boeing has been moving work to, Long Beach, Huntsville and St. Louis, have lost significant work over the years. The people there are saying, "When do we get some work?"

I don't buy the Chicken Little bit about how Boeing is leaving Seattle entirely. BravoOne isn't the only person who has ever said that either.

[Edited 2016-02-27 11:24:17]
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:16 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 18):
he state's political class is not working the (in Boeing;s mind at least)

Yet we read how much the state government granted just to get the 777X work and is now really upset about Boeing reducing employment pretty much ever since.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 18):
King County is just about one of the most expensive areas in the US to live.

Now that is true. It makes it hard to attract talent. On the other hand, one reason it's so expensive is it is one of the most desirable places to live. I've visited a few times and I like the area a lot, but the high cost of living and the rainy weather makes it hard to justify moving there.
 
abba
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 13):
Looks like Boeing is not really planning any further wing job for the MAX

Not only that. It also seems as if the MOM is out of sight too. Let the 321 keep the market for itself and let the 737 remain at a 40% market share.
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:36 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 18):
Got news for you Boeing IS leaving Seattle, slowly but surely.

Yep, and the cost of living I hear is much better in Charleston SC / Tulsa OK, etc. Probably not much going on in these towns unlike SEA, but it is livable if you don't mind an occasional hurricane / tornado, etc.
 
IPFreely
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:47 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Without Boeing and the like, Seattle would be like Detroit. Seattle would be a very depressed city (economic wise).

Seattle is headed there already. Less than 50% of Boeing's employees are in Washington State today and that number is declining steadily. With headquarters in Chicago and production in South Carolina, Oklahoma, China, and elsewhere, it's only a matter of time before the government in Seattle and Washington state drive Boeing completely out.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:06 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
The sky is falling. Not. I don't believe this. You seem to forget they are investing in a huge new 777X wing assembly plant in Everett. The 737 Max will be built in Renton.

Did not say the sky was falling so that statement is false on your part, not mine. MFG in China and SC will continue to expand at the peril of SEA. In case you haven't notice LGB is again becoming quite active, not in MFG but other supporting groups. Time are a changing.
 
dc10lover
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:24 pm

February 27 , 2016

Boeing - Layoffs for Airplane Engineers

http://dailyjobcuts.com/
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:26 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 26):
Did not say the sky was falling so that statement is false on your part, not mine. MFG in China and SC will continue to expand at the peril of SEA. In case you haven't notice LGB is again becoming quite active, not in MFG but other supporting groups. Time are a changing.

Boeing is not "MFG" In China. That's a common misconception. They will be doing some finishing there. The airplanes are built in Renton.

Long Beach used to be far bigger than it is now. You might be aware that every single LGB model is out of production, so those people might like some work too.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:31 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Can Boeing afford the pensions of retired workers?

It is a concern long-term, which is why the latest contracts moved at least the SPEEA engineers from pensions to 401Ks (for new-hires). I know they wanted to do the same for the IAM and it was one of the reasons they struck, but I don't recall if the final ratified contract did this or if new-hires are all still on pensions.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:23 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Can Boeing afford the pensions of retired workers?

It is a concern long-term, which is why the latest contracts moved at least the SPEEA engineers from pensions to 401Ks (for new-hires). I know they wanted to do the same for the IAM and it was one of the reasons they struck, but I don't recall if the final ratified contract did this or if new-hires are all still on pensions.

You're a bit behind where this is at. IAM, non-represented and now SPEEA all will have pension accruals frozen by 2018. There's a slight difference with how it's being done for SPEEA. They can still accrue pension benefits based on salary growth.
 
rta
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:34 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Without Boeing and the like, Seattle would be like Detroit. Seattle would be a very depressed city (economic wise).

Please. That could not be any further from the truth.
 
IPFreely
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:05 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 28):
Boeing is not "MFG" In China. That's a common misconception. They will be doing some finishing there. The airplanes are built in Renton.

First the China operation would install some trim and do delivery. Then it was part of the interior plus trim and delivery. Then it was the whole interior plus trim plus delivery. Now it is paint plus the whole interior plus trim plus delivery. Every time Boeing needs to secure a new order they give away more of the work. Pretending it's going to stop at some point to "protect" Renton is just silly.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:08 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 32):
First the China operation would install some trim and do delivery. Then it was part of the interior plus trim and delivery. Then it was the whole interior plus trim plus delivery. Now it is paint plus the whole interior plus trim plus delivery. Every time Boeing needs to secure a new order they give away more of the work. Pretending it's going to stop at some point to "protect" Renton is just silly.

First, Boeing initially looked at moving 737 production (the entire 737 production) to China in the early 80's, nothing new here.

So far there has been no official announcement as to exactly what interior work will be done in China -- it hasn't been a progression of giveaways.

With the coming increases in production rates Boeing doesn't have the facilities to paint all the airplanes they will be building anyway, so no jobs lost there. As for production flight testing and delivery the amount of people needed is small compared to the big picture. If it gets China to buy more airplanes creating higher production rates and employing more people in Renton, sounds good to me.
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:19 am

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Without Boeing and the like, Seattle would be like Detroit. Seattle would be a very depressed city (economic wise).

Boeing is still very important, but Seattle has matured way beyond. The economy is booming on the back of IT and businesses attracting people who realize it's a wonderful area to live. Microsoft is next door, and Amazon, Expedia, Google, Facebook and others all have significant presence and are adding more well paying jobs. It's not Silicon Valley, but is arguably the strongest hub for public cloud IT. Lots of Chinese money coming in. Housing inventory is very low and many people complain about escalating rents. Seattle/Bellevue/Redmond and extending up to Everett and down to Tacoma is one of the healthiest metro areas in the nation.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:19 am

Quoting mwhcvt (Reply 1):
Things must be worse than reported for Boeing
Quoting flyglobal (Reply 2):
Definitely its a bad sign.

The last year for which I have figures I can compare is 2012. In that year Boeing Commercial had 141 employees per delivery and Airbus 125 employees per delivery.
As always the devil is in the detail and we don't know who was included in those numbers, eg were certain subcontractors included or excluded, did Airbus count Chinese assembly line workers and so on.
So there could be other possible conclusions.
In 2009 it was 104 per delivery for Airbus and 125 for Boeing. The difficulty is finding reliable number of employees for Boeing Commercial and Airbus Commercial.

It is a bad sign for the individuals so affected, but it is a good sign for Boeing.

They are clearly working to a longer term strategy of improving efficiency by changing design, place of manufacture, method of manufacture and number of employees, and so on.
In the end, especially if fuel prices stay down, they will reap the benefits by offering cheaper aircraft or alternatively taking more margin. If fuel prices do not recover then efficiency will become less important and capital cost more important, in aircraft choices.

From the above figures, it would appear Airbus (at least superficially anyway) have the advantage in worker efficiency, and Boeing must move in this direction.

What would be bad is if Boeing did nothing. The ball will soon (within a couple of years) be back in Airbus's court to find efficiencies to stay competitive.

Ruscoe

Something else which may come into play with this is that the 13% of Boeing employees who are engineers have new work place agreements to be negotiated by October this year.

[Edited 2016-02-27 20:33:03]
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:31 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
Boeing made 'rookie' mistakes on the 787 as they laid off too many senior engineers. I had to jump from my last job as a very senior engineer as I was 'too expensive.'. Thankfully my employer wised up and asked a number of us if we would come back.

I find it amazing that this happens quite often, its like dumping old wine, and buying cheap stuff....

TRB
 
Aircellist
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:57 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 25):
the government in Seattle and Washington state drive Boeing completely out.

Didn't Boeing receive huge fiscal incentives, already? Many times?

It is the corporation that is pushing itself out, not the other way round.

And it is doing so by playing all kinds of government levels against each other.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:21 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 35):

Something else which may come into play with this is that the 13% of Boeing employees who are engineers have new work place agreements to be negotiated by October this year.

You missed the news. The SPEEA contract was approved last week. Already done.

[Edited 2016-02-27 23:22:37]
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:17 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Does "voluntary layoff" come with a severance package? Otherwise, why volunteer to be laid off? If you have another job you simply leave. If you're ready to retire you simply retire.

Some form of package usually comes into play. May I challenge your "black-and-white" scenarios slightly though?
Due to huge cuts between 20 and 10 years ago my company is having to wrestle with key shortages.
One of the approaches that has been taken has been to adopt an "associate" policy.
In this case skilled, experienced people coming up to, or just passing, retirement, can elect to start taking their pension, and working 2-3 days per week, subject to certain rules agreed with the unions
(like they have to wait 6 months before coming back into work)
They come back on a contract, as opposed to permanent position
A lot of these people are getting on in years, but still have a passion for what they do.
Working 50% of the time on something they love, whilst drawing a pension, and having a lot less stress, suits a lot of them.
And the company retains its access to all that knowledge at half the price. Win-win  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
I was told it's hard for the company to 'pick and choose' which employees take a voluntary severance.

In the UK certainly, legally it is a requirement to have selected volunteers before executing a compulsory lay-off package.
Unfortunately in my experience the ones most likely to volunteer are
a) the young, smart upwardly mobile ones who will go look for a career elsewhere, and
b) the long serving experienced ones, who can get virtually full pension, a layoff package, and leave 2-3 years early.
either way, these are the last two groups you would want to have leaving the business
There is a need to demonstrate a "strategic" requirement for an individual who offer to leave voluntarily is rejected.
And as you say, it leave the business exposed to all sorts of legal claims

Rgds
 
BravoOne
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:32 pm

Boeing Guy your name says it all. For some reason I suspect you might be a third generation Boeing employee. Did you listen to the complete Ray Conner presentation? I'll say it again times are a changing and Boeing Seattle will continue to get smaller. If you think flying 737's to China for finishing work is good for the Seattle work force so be it, but to me that sounds like work that good ole Americans here in the North West should be doing, not someone in China.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:35 pm

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 24):
Yep, and the cost of living I hear is much better in Charleston SC / Tulsa OK, etc. Probably not much going on in these towns unlike SEA, but it is livable if you don't mind an occasional hurricane / tornado, etc.


You know, I always wonder what people mean by "not much going on in the cities". Having grown up in a small city and lived in a big city for 20+ years, I realize my urge to leave a small place was largely unfounded. Small cities now have almost all the same amenities as major cities minus traffic, aggressive people, pollution and crowding at the grocery store (although CHS does have a lot of traffic at times). The arts are also alive and well in small towns, and most big city dwellers never get to the museums anyway.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:32 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 39):
Some form of package usually comes into play. May I challenge your "black-and-white" scenarios slightly though?
Due to huge cuts between 20 and 10 years ago my company is having to wrestle with key shortages.
One of the approaches that has been taken has been to adopt an "associate" policy.
In this case skilled, experienced people coming up to, or just passing, retirement, can elect to start taking their pension, and working 2-3 days per week, subject to certain rules agreed with the unions
(like they have to wait 6 months before coming back into work)
They come back on a contract, as opposed to permanent position
A lot of these people are getting on in years, but still have a passion for what they do.
Working 50% of the time on something they love, whilst drawing a pension, and having a lot less stress, suits a lot of them.
And the company retains its access to all that knowledge at half the price. Win-win

It's nice to see such a useful and sensible approach to the situation. Here we don't see much of this. Only a small fraction of workers have union support and as above we see corporations are even forcing unionized employees to give up pensions in favor of 401k plans where the worker becomes responsible for managing their own retirement funds. Some say it's more freedom, to me it's a burden. Wall Street loves it, it creates a huge pool of relatively unskilled investors for them to take advantage of.

I have heard of some programs in my company where there is mentoring and where there is an ability to work part time but I've never heard of them being coordinated to help retirees or near-retirees transfer skills to more junior employees.

More frequently I hear where we lay off the wrong people and end up hiring them back as contractors with the middle man getting a nice cut of the salary the employee used to get, sigh.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 39):
There is a need to demonstrate a "strategic" requirement for an individual who offer to leave voluntarily is rejected.
And as you say, it leave the business exposed to all sorts of legal claims

It will be interesting to see how this all works out. In my place of employment there are several openly hoping for a voluntary severance. The last time one came around I wasn't eligible due to age and years of service. Who knows about the next one, but I'll study it carefully if/when it comes around.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27681
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:38 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Without Boeing and the like, Seattle would be like Detroit. Seattle would be a very depressed city (economic wise).

As a resident of the Greater Seattle Area for over thirty years, you are well off the mark with that view.

Boeing's presence in the GSA is rather small now - essentially BCA Corporate, Boeing Field and Renton. A complete pull-out by them from Western Washington would hurt Everett the most followed by Renton and both cities have enough economic diversification to eventually weather such a move.

As for Seattle, the job losses would be mostly managerial and administrative positions so the impact would be negligible outside of philanthropic areas (Boeing employees do significant charity work). As noted by others, Microsoft and Amazon are the major economic players in Seattle, followed by biotechnology firms and Starbucks. The city's economy is extensively diversified and we've weathered the past decades of financial crises pretty well. The biggest hit we took was in the financial industry when Chase bought out Washington Mutual during the GFC for a song and laid off a significant portion of the workforce.

[Edited 2016-02-28 09:39:45]
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6641
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:59 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 40):
Boeing Guy your name says it all. For some reason I suspect you might be a third generation Boeing employee. Did you listen to the complete Ray Conner presentation? I'll say it again times are a changing and Boeing Seattle will continue to get smaller. If you think flying 737's to China for finishing work is good for the Seattle work force so be it, but to me that sounds like work that good ole Americans here in the North West should be doing, not someone in China.

No, I'm first generation. Yes, I saw the entire Ray Conner video. No, I did not say that sending some 737s to China for finishing work was good for the Seattle work force. I said I don't think the sky is falling over it.
 
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kanban
Posts: 4048
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:11 am

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 40):
but to me that sounds like work that good ole Americans here in the North West should be doing, not someone in China.

one needs to look at the costs to expand the line in Seattle.. Renton will be maxed out very soon and the finishing in China allows more through put.. land and building costs for this bubble in Washington would place the costs beyond recover, so it is good for Seattle.

Also one has to remember that much of the engineering work is already done elsewhere (either by partners or Boeing Design groups such as those in Russia).. not all engineers are design engineers.. some types have extremely cyclic employment patterns .. say stress, materials, tooling, manufacturing types.. Others are wrapped up in rejection rework which is being driven down as more robust processes produce more repeatable results.

Boeing is management top heavy - these guys have no union to provide unwarranted job retention.. this is where "voluntary" lay-offs occur.. it is a way to weed out dead wood and entrenched politicians. unfortunately sometimes it's the dead wood doing the sorting and any upcoming threats are eliminated. We say a big purge years ago when someone decided that all managers should be MBAs.. talk about out with common sense and 'Hello Home Depot we could use somer nuts, bolts and rivets".
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 45):
one needs to look at the costs to expand the line in Seattle.. Renton will be maxed out very soon and the finishing in China allows more through put.. land and building costs for this bubble in Washington would place the costs beyond recover, so it is good for Seattle.

While your points are well taken I suspect being a retired Boeing employee it's somewhat influenced by the "I'm on board, pull up the ladder" mentality of many workers these days. This work could be done locally and probably at a less expensive rate. When the 737 Max production rate falls to 20 a month things will look a lot different and each job kept on US soil will count for a lot more.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27681
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:28 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 46):
This work could be done locally and probably at a less expensive rate.

The work is not being sent to China because it's cheaper than doing it in Washington State. It's being sent to China because it keeps China ordering 737s.

It's the same reason Airbus builds A320s in TJN and is adding an A330 Completion Center there. Just today, Air China ordered a brace of A330s and one can be pretty confident it was because they will be outfitted in Tianjin and not Toulouse.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:24 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 47):
The work is not being sent to China because it's cheaper than doing it in Washington State. It's being sent to China because it keeps China ordering 737s


I'm only to aware of the reasoning behind this plan. Personally I would not get on any airplane built in China 
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27681
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Boeing Considering Layoffs Of Airplane Engineers

Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 48):
I'm only to aware of the reasoning behind this plan. Personally I would not get on any airplane built in China.   

Well your "safe" on the 737 and A330 then, since the Chinese will only be handling cabin installation and customer acceptance flights.

[Edited 2016-02-29 11:42:59]

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