DL AMS Presence

rg787 · Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:02 pm

Hello all!

Just seen this photo of 6 or so wide bodies from DL lined up at AMS, and have seen lots of photos of this even since the NW days... What is it that makes AMS so interesting for them? I thought about sky team but CDG would be a better option from my point of view...

thegoldenargosy · Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:17 pm

NW & KLM had a strong partnership which has continued to SkyTeam. KLM can fly DL pax to many places in Africa, Asia, and Europe that DL doesn't fly to. They have a joint venture on trans atlantic flights. DL has around 18 flights a day in summer to AMS.

TheAccountant · Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:26 pm

They are in a joint venture with KLM, among others, where they share all profits and losses on the transatlantic flight. The AMS operation on DL feeds people onto to KLMs AMS-Europe, Middle East and Africa network as a means to fill up the transatlantic flight and make more money. Similarly, Delta and KLM utilize DL's North America network and connections to fill the flights. The combination of the two networks creates one of the largest networks between North America and Europe, Middle East and Africa benefitting passengers with a seamless connecting experience.

In the summer Delta flies:

AMS-SEA 1 daily A330-300 and 1 daily A330-200
AMS-PDX 1 daily A330-300
AMS-SLC 1 daily 767-300ER
AMS-MSP 2 daily A330-300 and 1 daily 767-300ER
AMS-DTW 3 daily A330-200 and 1 daily 767-400ER
AMS-ATL 2 daily A330-300 and 1 daily 767-400ER
AMS-EWR 1 daily 767-300ER
AMS-JFK 1 daily A330-300 and 1 daily 767-300ER
AMS-BOS 1 daily A330-300 and 1 daily 767-400ER

So 19 widebody flights per day

questions · Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:28 pm

Which is a stronger partner hub for DL, AMS or CDG?

thegoldenargosy · Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:44 pm

I thought AMS was larger than CDG. However CDG looks bigger with the summer seasonal flights.

AMS:
ATL
BOS
DTW
EWR
JFK
MSP
PDX
SEA
SLC

CDG:
ATL
BOS
CVG
DTW
EWR
JFK
MSP
ORD
PHL
PIT
RDU
SEA
SLC

avi8 · Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:55 pm

With 12 daily A330 flights, wouldn't it be a good idea to have an A330 base in AMS? In sure Amsterdam sees more A330 flights than any other hub.

BravoOne · Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:57 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 5):
With 12 daily A330 flights, wouldn't it be a good idea to have an A330 base in AMS? In sure Amsterdam sees more A330 flights than any other hub.

What kind of base are you proposing? Pilots. FA's?

avi8 · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:01 pm

Yea sorry for not specifying. I meant pilot and FA base

flyboy80 · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:08 pm

Deltas rumored to be looking at relocating part of their business to the Netherlands to reduce taxes.

Would they be legally able to open a crew base in AMS, and staff US flights with AMS based crew-members, and non-US Citizens?

toltommy · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 8):
Deltas rumored to be looking at relocating part of their business to the Netherlands to reduce taxes.

Would they be legally able to open a crew base in AMS, and staff US flights with AMS based crew-members, and non-US Citizens?

The rumored move is more back office. The creation of a shell corporation, not a separate certificate.

The scope clause in the pilot contract requires Delta flying above 76 seats to be done by Delta pilots on the Delta seniority list. They can't create a base and staff it with foreign nationals. So they are looking at other ways to reduce the costs of the AMS flying. IIRC, they may actually own the hotel they use for layovers, because of the number of crew members there nightly.

toobz · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:25 pm

Do you have any idea what the labor laws are like in Europe? Certainly wouldn't be cost effective for them to do that.

[Edited 2016-02-27 10:16:31]

slcdeltarumd11 · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:27 pm

CDG has higher o&d to most or all cities but AMS is better for connections. Both make sense for different reasons

FlyCaledonian · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 9):
The scope clause in the pilot contract requires Delta flying above 76 seats to be done by Delta pilots on the Delta seniority list. They can't create a base and staff it with foreign nationals. So they are looking at other ways to reduce the costs of the AMS flying. IIRC, they may actually own the hotel they use for layovers, because of the number of crew members there nightly.

Could they open a crew base in AMS and staff it with existing DL pilots and cabin crew?

burnsie28 · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:38 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 4):
ORD

Unless something has changed, ORD is winter seasonal, AF operates during the summer.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 7):
Yea sorry for not specifying. I meant pilot and FA base

No need for it, rotations are easily built in from the A330 bases in the US (ATL, SEA, DTW)

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 4):
I thought AMS was larger than CDG. However CDG looks bigger with the summer seasonal flights.

Seat wise I believe its close, since PIT, PHL, RDU are 752s

toltommy · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:47 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 12):

Could they open a crew base in AMS and staff it with existing DL pilots and cabin crew?

I don't know. Would the Dutch government allow it? Would they require work permits and at what cost? Would the pilot contract require them to provide a cost of living adjustment? The employees would have US tax issues, since our government taxes foreign earnings. I can't really see where it would be more cost effective to open a base.

factsonly · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:50 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 3):
Which is a stronger partner hub for DL, AMS or CDG?

AMS and CDG are not that different in total pax numbers, but very different in O&D versus transfer passengers:

CDG: Total passengers 65 Million
- O&D 53,5 million
- Transfer 11,5 Million (also Orly)

AMS: Total Passengers: 58 Million
- O&D 35 million
- Transfer 23 million

AMS = 2x larger as a transfer hub.

deltal1011man · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:08 pm

Quoting rg787 (Thread starter):
I thought about sky team but CDG would be a better option from my point of view...

you haven't connected in AMS and CDG have you?
CDG is terrible.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 5):
With 12 daily A330 flights, wouldn't it be a good idea to have an A330 base in AMS? In sure Amsterdam sees more A330 flights than any other hub.

Why would they? The vast majority of AMS flying (330 or other) is done from a 330/765/7ER base as it is. Of the 330 flights that fly to AMS that aren't as base its all of 4 (1x PDX, 2x MSP, 1x BOS) and these are easily covered by existing bases.
The only of flight that doesn't leave a base is the 1x 764. Only NYC/ATL are 765 bases.

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 8):

Would they be legally able to open a crew base in AMS, and staff US flights with AMS based crew-members, and non-US Citizens?

yes. DL has FA bases in Asia and AA/UA have bases in Europe.
But there really isn't a point. DL doesn't have a single AMS flight that isn't from a FA bases.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 9):
IIRC, they may actually own the hotel they use for layovers, because of the number of crew members there nightly.

Thats Tokyo

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 12):

Could they open a crew base in AMS and staff it with existing DL pilots and cabin crew?

Could they? yes.
Would they? no. For the FAs that is a quick way to get a union voted in. For the pilots they would have to be on the DALPA seniority list and more than likely the union would make the company pay for living costs for those who are based there and don't live in AMS.

On top of all of that what happens when an AMS national can't hold AMS 333 anymore and his/her seniority forces them to ATL or NYC or another DL base? Adding a base in AMS would be nothing but a pain for DL.

Mir · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 12):
Could they open a crew base in AMS and staff it with existing DL pilots and cabin crew?

That's totally dependent on whatever deal they could work out with the Netherlands government as far as residency and taxes go.

-Mir

BoeingGuy · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Quoting rg787 (Thread starter):
I thought about sky team but CDG would be a better option from my point of view...

you haven't connected in AMS and CDG have you?
CDG is terrible.

Everybody says that. I've connected at CDG before and didn't find it bad.

deltal1011man · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:12 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):

Everybody says that. I've connected at CDG before and didn't find it bad.

compared to AMS or just in general?

Id take CDG over LHR but AMS is the best hub in Europe to connect IMO.

BravoOne · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:23 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 8):
Would they be legally able to open a crew base in AMS, and staff US flights with AMS based crew-members, and non-US Citizens?

First of all there are not any now, nor will there be in the future an non US citizen pilots flying DL. In the past Dl had a pilot presence in EDDF along with a FA base in Warsaw and India. This was a product of the Pam Am deal back in 1990, or so. The pilots originated their trips by deadheading form JFK so that was very inefficient and was soon eliminated.

deltal1011man · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:29 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 20):
First of all there are not any now, nor will there be in the future an non US citizen pilots flying DL. In the past Dl had a pilot presence in EDDF along with a FA base in Warsaw and India. This was a product of the Pam Am deal back in 1990, or so. The pilots originated their trips by deadheading form JFK so that was very inefficient and was soon eliminated.

which is basically what would happen here. DL would be paying ATL bases 330 pilots to DH to AMS just to fly AMS-ATL-AMS then DH back home.

no logic in this. The hand full of 330 flights that don't touch a 330 base can be flown as a W pattern trip. (ie JFK-AMS-BOS-AMS-JFK.

bobnwa · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:41 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
Everybody says that. I've connected at CDG before and didn't find it bad.

Let me add my vote to the AMS is better than CDG for connecting passengers crowd. done it quite a few times from both airports and AMS is miles ahead

DTWPurserBoy · Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:37 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 8):

Would they be legally able to open a crew base in AMS, and staff US flights with AMS based crew-members, and non-US Citizens?

DL pilots would never permit it under their contract. And DL knows that outsourcing that many f/a jobs would guarantee them a union.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):

Quoting toltommy (Reply 9):IIRC, they may actually own the hotel they use for layovers, because of the number of crew members there nightly.

They also own one, inherited from NW, in AMS. For security reasons that name and location will not be disclosed on an open blog like this.

bigb · Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:45 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 23):
They also own one, inherited from NW, in AMS. For security reasons that name and location will not be disclosed on an open blog like this.

I am sure they own one in Narita too, that I have stayed at.

Cubsrule · Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:17 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 21):
no logic in this. The hand full of 330 flights that don't touch a 330 base can be flown as a W pattern trip. (ie JFK-AMS-BOS-AMS-JFK.

And for some pilots and flight attendants, this is an attractive type of trip. It can be close to half a month of flying in a single 7-day trip.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 23):
They also own one, inherited from NW, in AMS. For security reasons that name and location will not be disclosed on an open blog like this.

That's sort of silly given that it's a matter of public record, no?

Travelmanager · Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:01 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
Id take CDG over LHR but AMS is the best hub in Europe to connect IMO.

Yes, I fly through Amsterdam 8-10 times a year and I wouldn't trade it for any other hub (except maybe MUC).

Viscount724 · Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:17 am

Quoting rg787 (Thread starter):
I thought about sky team but CDG would be a better option from my point of view...

As many others have said, AMS is much more convenient for connections than CDG. It also has many more destinations in some major markets. For example KLM serves 15 cities in Scandinavia and Finland, compared to 5 cities by AF from CDG. AF doesn't even serve HEL except as a codeshare on AY flights.

AMS is also the best connecting hub to/from secondary cities in the UK. KLM serves 14 UK airports.

I've connected at AMS hundreds of times over the past 45 years and there's still no major hub in Europe that matches it in convenience. Also, unlike AF, CDG and France in general, I've never heard of a strike by AMS airport workers, Dutch air traffic controllers, or at KLM itself.

factsonly · Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:05 am

Quoting avi8 (Reply 5):
With 12 daily A330 flights, wouldn't it be a good idea to have an A330 base in AMS? In sure Amsterdam sees more A330 flights than any other hub.

You are correct in observing that AMS is DL's largest A330 station, with most A330 departures/day.

Particularly in winter, when operations are more likely to be interrupted, DL schedules a spare A330 in AMS. It is the one station where an A330 delay or cancellation is most likely to occur and a spare is most welcome. Note that the new A333 deliveries from Airbus seem to operate to AMS pretty well exclusively in their initial weeks of operation.

http://www.flightradar24.com/reg/n826nw

So not a base, but certainly DL's largest A330 station.

Here are some additional statistics:

- Delta is the 4th carrier at AMS in aircraft movements - 2015 data:

1. KLM = 220.000 movements
2. easyjet = 30.200 movements
3. Transavia = 27.500
4. Delta = 11.400

- Delta operates on four of the five busiest AMS long-haul routes - 2015 data:

1. ATL = 777.557 passengers +20%
2. DXB = 775.000 +4% (only DL codeshare)
3. JFK = 662.000 -0.9%
4. DTW = 598.500 -4%
5. MSP = 471.600 +4%

None of the DL destinations are top cargo destinations for AMS.

16. JFK = 34.100 tons -6.4%

source: AMS 2015 statistical review

deltal1011man · Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:21 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 28):

Particularly in winter, when operations are more likely to be interrupted, DL schedules a spare A330 in AMS. It is the one station where an A330 delay or cancellation is most likely to occur and a spare is most welcome. Note that the new A333 deliveries from Airbus seem to operate to AMS pretty well exclusively in their initial weeks of operation.

The GE 330s are operating all across the system. AFAIK no dedicated routes yet.

Quoting Travelmanager (Reply 26):

Yes, I fly through Amsterdam 8-10 times a year and I wouldn't trade it for any other hub (except maybe MUC).

MUC was the other hub of thought but it doesn't have the scope AMS does.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):

And for some pilots and flight attendants, this is an attractive type of trip. It can be close to half a month of flying in a single 7-day trip.

exactly.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):

That's sort of silly given that it's a matter of public record, no?

Well if they own one I don't see it on the airlines 10K. Only the hotel in Tokyo and the land (and building?) in downtown Tokyo. Nothing about any other hotels owned by the airline.

MIflyer12 · Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:56 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 29):
Well if they own one I don't see it on the airlines 10K. Only the hotel in Tokyo and the land (and building?) in downtown Tokyo. Nothing about any other hotels owned by the airline.

It's useful to read a 10K now and then but a 10K isn't an asset listing. Acquisition or disposition of a particularly expensive asset (or a write-down in value) might be disclosed in a 10K but a firm doesn't declare all owned assets in a 10K.

matt · Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:39 pm

I understand that it costs DL a lot of money to put up crews overnight in AMS. But even if DL had a crew base in AMS, they would have to pay for crew accomodations when those pilots and FAs have layovers in the US. No real savings there.

johns624 · Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:07 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
I've connected at CDG before and didn't find it bad.

Maybe if you don't mind walking forever between gates. I've flown DTW-CDG-CPH twice and the walk between gates was terrible.

jacobchoi · Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
compared to AMS or just in general?

Id take CDG over LHR but AMS is the best hub in Europe to connect IMO.

I prefer MUC and/or ZRH

airbuster · Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:30 pm

I practically live next to the hotel Delta stays at in AMS and it belongs to a chain of hotels. I am not aware of any other delta owned hotel in or around AMS either.

johns624 · Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:03 pm

Quoting airbuster (Reply 34):
I practically live next to the hotel Delta stays at in AMS and it belongs to a chain of hotels

Most chains are franchisees.

Viscount724 · Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:44 am

Quoting jacobchoi (Reply 33):
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
compared to AMS or just in general?

Id take CDG over LHR but AMS is the best hub in Europe to connect IMO.

I prefer MUC and/or ZRH

Since the subject involves DL's use of AMS as a hub, its location is better for a US carrier, being near the edge of Europe. Means very little backtracking when connecting between North America and almost everywhere in Europe.

I also like MUC but to most places I go, connecting there means flying at least a few hundred miles in the wrong direction.

And compared to ZRH, AMS has a much larger number of destinations and generally with greater frequency which permits a wider choice of schedules and short connecting times. For example, there are 12 daily flights AMS-CPH (all carriers) compared to only 5 daily ZRH-CPH.

Cubsrule · Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:05 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 29):
Well if they own one I don't see it on the airlines 10K. Only the hotel in Tokyo and the land (and building?) in downtown Tokyo. Nothing about any other hotels owned by the airline.

I wasn't thinking of the 10-K so much (though, like MIFlyer says, there are times when real property shows up in a 10-K for one reason or another). IIRC, though, ownership of real property is public record in the Netherlands much like it is in the States.

Viscount724 · Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:29 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 29):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):

That's sort of silly given that it's a matter of public record, no?

Well if they own one I don't see it on the airlines 10K. Only the hotel in Tokyo and the land (and building?) in downtown Tokyo. Nothing about any other hotels owned by the airline.

1988 news item re land in Tokyo then owned by NW.
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1988/No...d-cd2b3b715c42c3a8c5d29144df55f6d7

I believe NW also once owned an apartment building in Tokyo that they used for crew accommodation. I believe it was sold at a large profit. Reference to it below in another forum dated 2009:

Northwest Airlines used to own an apartment building in Tokyo, which they used to accommodate their air crews. It was sort of run like a hotel, except that some of the senior people, who flew into Tokyo on a regular basis, had their 'own room' which was not normally assigned to other people. There were also Northwest employees stationed in Tokyo who lived in this building.

It was a good sized building, with some garden space around it. However, at one point a few years ago, extremely high prices for Tokyo real estate coincided with one of the chronic financial crises of NWA, and they sold the property. (Otherwise the financial results for that year would have been bad, and executive bonuses would have been threatened.)

factsonly · Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:39 am

Quoting jacobchoi (Reply 33):
I prefer MUC and/or ZRH

Both in a different league.

Size, scope and network matter - 2015 data;

- CDG 65.766.000 pax
- FRA 61.032.000 pax
- AMS 58.285.000 pax

- MUC 40.981.000 pax
- ZRH 26.281.000 pax

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 36):
And compared to ZRH, AMS has a much larger number of destinations and generally with greater frequency which permits a wider choice of schedules and short connecting times. For example, there are 12 daily flights AMS-CPH (all carriers) compared to only 5 daily ZRH-CPH.

airbuster · Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:56 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 35):

Quoting airbuster (Reply 34):
I practically live next to the hotel Delta stays at in AMS and it belongs to a chain of hotels

Most chains are franchisees.

Good point. I didn't know that.

Airbuster

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:13 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
That's sort of silly given that it's a matter of public record, no?

It would not show up in the 10 as it is held titled to a different company and managed by a major hotel chain. But DL inherited in the merger.

There is nothing "silly" about the safety and security of our crews. We take it very seriously. Our families love us and want us to come home safely.

[Edited 2016-02-29 16:15:03]

Cubsrule · Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:26 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 41):
It would not show up in the 10 as it is held titled to a different company and managed by a major hotel chain. But DL inherited in the merger.

Again, the owner of the property is a matter of public record. I'm not sure why this is so hard. There are plenty of public records out there other than SEC filings, especially where real property is concerned.

I know that security theater has spread to crews in a lot of ways, but this idea that the hotels where crews stay is secret or sensitive when anybody who pays attention at the airport can tell you where most or all of the crews stay in his city is absurd.

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:21 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 42):
I know that security theater has spread to crews in a lot of ways, but this idea that the hotels where crews stay is secret or sensitive when anybody who pays attention at the airport can tell you where most or all of the crews stay in his city is absurd.

Actually ALL flight crews have been told not to give out the information. When a passenger asks where we stay we just get vague and say "Gee, I don't know. It changes all the time. We don't find out until after we land.

Generally we travel in unmarked chartered buses--especially outside the US.

Most ground staff would have no idea where we stay and probably no interest in knowing. They are instructed to report unusual questions regarding flight crew movements to senior management.

BravoOne · Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:33 pm

All you have to do is look back at the Oberoi hotel in Mumbai or Sharm el sheikh to see what can happen to crews.

a380787 · Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:19 pm

The hotels aren't all that secret. For instance, I know 4 of DL's BFFs - VS AF KL AZ - all stay in the same crew hotel in midtown Manhattan.

BravoOne · Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:24 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 45):
The hotels aren't all that secret. For instance, I know 4 of DL's BFFs - VS AF KL AZ - all stay in the same crew hotel in midtown Manhattan.

Good for you. You hanging around pilots

a380787 · Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:31 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 46):

Good for you. You hanging around pilots

FWIW, I'm currently engaged to a skyteam first officer (technically the title is RP, which is a half step between Captain and FO).

BravoOne · Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:38 pm

That's great

Wish you the best. Not familiar with Skyteam but FWIW the RP position at most US airlines is junior to the traditional FO position.

a380787 · Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 48):

That's great Wish you the best. Not familiar with Skyteam but FWIW the RP position at most US airlines is junior to the traditional FO position.

It's a non-US skyteam airline, senior to FO.

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