VH-BZF
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:05 am

There is a lot of talk that JAL are expecting to launch Melbourne as their next Australian destination with evening arrival/departures, around mid year I believe? I hope this comes to fruition and would presume that the B787-8 from NRT would be the equipment of choice, at least to start?

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IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:24 am

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 50):
There is a lot of talk that JAL are expecting to launch Melbourne as their next Australian destination with evening arrival/departures, around mid year I believe? I hope this comes to fruition and would presume that the B787-8 from NRT would be the equipment of choice, at least to start?

From what I have heard over the past year or so they have been shopping around really, having discussions but we will see what occurs.

MEL and PER have been on the agenda for both JL and NH, although the former would be more advanced in any of their discussions so far for what I can take out of the situation at the moment.

If JL goes for MEL, NH will go with PER for its next expansion plan. Both cities are more than likely to see a Japanese carrier in the medium term.

As for frequencies into MEL, With JQ already at 4 x weekly on MEL-NRT (increased to 6 x weekly seasonally), just what JL does do will be interesting to watch. Daily offers business/premium travel demand advantages, but only if you can fill the rest of the seats.

Launching MEL-HND would offer a point of difference though, but given the slot issues at the airport it will be a challenge.
 
CXfirst
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:34 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 49):
Don't agree sorry.

ID checks may not make things 100% safer but they do still go a long way to either deterring or catching some members of society that should not be aboard planes.

If this added level of security is so important (I believe security is tight enough), then you might as well take it to the next level and make the departure area a passenger only zone. You are much more likely going to have a better and more thorough ID check at the security screening point, rather than at the boarding gate, where gate personnel will be pressured to complete such a check as quick as possible in order to keep short turn around times.

-CXfirst
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 52):

If this added level of security is so important (I believe security is tight enough), then you might as well take it to the next level and make the departure area a passenger only zone. You are much more likely going to have a better and more thorough ID check at the security screening point, rather than at the boarding gate, where gate personnel will be pressured to complete such a check as quick as possible in order to keep short turn around times.

If that's what is decided so be it.

Its not like it would be a world first.
 
Nouflyer
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:16 am

Quoting sq256 (Reply 43):
Travel Daily magazines confirms JQ's BNE-HNL axing, however mentions of HA looking at frequency increases (including talk of going Daily during the holiday peak seasons) into the BNE-HNL route, as it seems HA is the stronger player on the BNE-HNL route plus has the hub at the HNL end for feed.

It was hard to see any other outcome.

Hawaiian had a product inclusive of IFE, meals, drinks and checked baggage, and the only way that Jetstar could compete was to trash their own yields by reducing their pricing.

Jetstar's only relative sweet spot was in Business Class with Qantas Frequent Flyer participation available a la carte. But when Hawaiian teamed up with AMEX to match them for price in Business Class, Jetstar lost even that.

Ultimately, Jetstar's only two remaining market niches on BNE-HNL were the lowest yielding Economy Class passengers and the tiny number of Qantas Frequent Flyers who purchased Business Max packages to reach higher Qantas status levels.

And that can't be sustainable.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:31 am

NH has stated internally there will be no Australian expansion before 2019- MEL/PER/others aren't even on their radars at the moment.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:00 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 55):
NH has stated internally there will be no Australian expansion before 2019- MEL/PER/others aren't even on their radars at the moment.

Might be the case now, but realistically in aviation things evolve quite quickly at times.

If there is a strategic need to start a flight an airline will look at it.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:18 am

Quoting PoleHillSid (Reply 44):
a person with malicious intent could get onto a train, a bus, or a Lindt Cafe and cause harm. Should you now need to provide ID when buying a hot chocolate?
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 48):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 47):
Apples and oranges.

How? Because it doesn't suit your argument?

Because it is comparing apples and oranges.

If you don't think that a pressurised aircraft flying at 40,000 feet over the middle of nowhere and carrying hundreds of passengers with no-where to escape should not be a more secure / vetted environment than a train, bus, cafe or banana plantation then engaging with you regarding this topic is a waste of time.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 49):
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 48):
While there are (extreme) ways to get around this, we can never be 100% secure. If ID. checks made us 100% secure I might support them but they don't. They just waste time.

Don't agree sorry.

ID checks may not make things 100% safer but they do still go a long way to either deterring or catching some members of society that should not be aboard planes.

Wasting time may be your take on it, but the reality is that there are far more important things than your time when considering these things.

  

Well said.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 53):
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 52):

If this added level of security is so important (I believe security is tight enough), then you might as well take it to the next level and make the departure area a passenger only zone. You are much more likely going to have a better and more thorough ID check at the security screening point, rather than at the boarding gate, where gate personnel will be pressured to complete such a check as quick as possible in order to keep short turn around times.

If that's what is decided so be it.

Its not like it would be a world first.

  
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:46 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 39):
Sounds like you are assuming that all criminals using fake IDs won't get caught out with their fake ID?

It depends on who is checking the ID. If it is an overworked gate agent, working alone, trying to turn a flight in 30 minutes then they won't look at it long enough. I've never worked in airport security, but I know from experience working in an RSA environment that most times you barely even glanced at the photo and just checked the DOB. Think about how much time a night club bouncer spends inspecting an ID, versus how long it takes to just scan a boarding pass. Checking IDs with that level of thoroughness could possibly double boarding times. The only place it could be done effectively is at security, where there could be an ID check with hologram readers etc like the TSA have, but expect the business lobby to scream blue murder if steps were implemented that slowed down security check points.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 39):
Without the ID check at the gate that little bit extra additional revenue airlines can get from name change charges, or re-selling seats in cancelled bookings, is sometimes missed.

The airlines would lobby hard to keep it the way it is. 30 minute turns are more valuable to them than the odd change fee here and there.

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 50):
expecting to launch Melbourne as their next Australian destination with evening arrival/departures

That would be strange given that it goes against their existing route to SYD, and JQ already has an overnight northbound and daylight southbound (albeit I'm sure that JL would arrive/depart earlier)

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 54):
Jetstar's only relative sweet spot was in Business Class with Qantas Frequent Flyer participation available a la carte.

I flew Jetstar to Hawaii two years ago, and to make a MASSIVE generalisation all of the passengers were either (1) bogans, or (2) Qantas Frequent Flyers. Even a lot of passengers in Y has Q Bag Tags on their luggage, as the Economy Max bundle still gives you FF points and status credits (plus food and allocated seating).
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TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:52 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 57):
If you don't think that a pressurised aircraft flying at 40,000 feet over the middle of nowhere and carrying hundreds of passengers with no-where to escape should not be a more secure / vetted environment than a train, bus, cafe or banana plantation then engaging with you regarding this topic is a waste of time.

Obviously I can appreciate the need for a different level of security, I just don't see why we should have a prison-like security system at airports but then happily let everyone and anyone walk onto a train with whatever they want (and its not like there isn't precedent for terrorists targeting trains and buses... e.g. London & Madrid).

Personally, I don't have an issue with train/bus security and I think we should lower some aspects of airport security anyway, we have some ridiculous regulations (e.g. 100ml of liquid internationally).

At some point we have to stop this state of fear.
 
vhebb
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:00 am

Word is a new QF A330 international destination/route will be announced shortly… My guess is starting October once all the A330 cabin upgrade work is done and a spare airframe will be available.

Contenders could be:

PER-SIN (Replacing B73H)
MEL-BKK - Possible with SYD-BKK performing well
SYD-PEK or MEL-PVG - Doubtful with the huge amount of China capacity already
SYD-ICN - Replacing Asiana codeshare
PER-HKG - Possible maybe do a mix of PER-SIN and PER-HKG
PER-NRT - Same as above
PER-JNB - Same as above e.g. 3x weekly PER-JNB and 4x weekly PER-HKG
SYD-SGN
SYD-KUL
 
Nouflyer
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:39 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 58):
I flew Jetstar to Hawaii two years ago, and to make a MASSIVE generalisation all of the passengers were either (1) bogans, or (2) Qantas Frequent Flyers. Even a lot of passengers in Y has Q Bag Tags on their luggage, as the Economy Max bundle still gives you FF points and status credits (plus food and allocated seating).

With respect, you're missing my point.

Jetstar effectively competes with Hawaiian and with Qantas to Honolulu. Obviously both the other carriers offer a better Economy product and a better Business Class product than Jetstar's "Premium Economy marketed as Business Class".

On random dates in May, from Sydney as an illustration, you find:

Jetstar basic economy $760 return (no bags, food or points)
Jetstar Economy $960 return ($379 one-way plus $99 each way for Qantas frequent flyer points and meal)
Jetstar basic Business $2800 return
Jetstar Business with Qantas frequent flyer benefits and lounge access $3200 return

Meanwhile Qantas sells
Qantas Economy $1046 return
Qantas Business $4210 return

and Hawaiian sells
Hawaiian Economy $717 return
Hawaiian Economy Extra Comfort $967
Hawaiian Business $2651 return

It's an incredibly difficult situation for Jetstar. They are beaten on product by both competitors - including their parent - and have no obvious response other than to undercut the other two carriers on price and trash their own yields.

I am still baffled by the Jetstar long-haul wide-body business model.
 
Nouflyer
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:59 am

I might add, above, that the Hawaiian-Virgin Australia tie-up has undermined Jetstar's loyalty program advantage too.

Those return Jetstar flights with added Max packages earn 280 Qantas Status Credits in Business Class and 90 Status credits in Economy class. (You need 600 to retain Gold and 1200 to retain Platinum status).

The Hawaiian airlines flights earn comparable Virgin Velocity points, but these can be pooled within a family. In practice, a family trip may earn one parent Gold status from a single return trip in Economy to Hawaii and will earn Platinum status from a return trip in Business class.

My argument is simply that it makes it a very challenging market for Jetstar.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:39 am

I can't find HA flights that cheap in May or in NOV (low season). Cheapest I see is $849 ex BNE (higher ex SYD). That's in O class which is ineligible to earn VA points. Earning VA points is not a top priority for grabbing a cheapish fare to HNL.

There is nothing challenging about the JQ longhaul business model... it is a yield trashing exercise with high density, low cost aircraft with a mega Australia frequent flyer base to send out fare sale e-mails and a large Qantas funded advertising budget. They don't pay for aerobridges at airports (BNE gate 74) and charge for food and just about everything else. Most of their fares (if not all) aren't commissionable either. Their pax base has a large bogan element, but who cares as long as the seats are fulll. The operating cost of an A330 is roughly $11000 per hour... now that they use 787's it's probably cheaper.
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:39 am

Quoting vhebb (Reply 60):
MEL-BKK
Quoting vhebb (Reply 60):
SYD-ICN

Either of these would make a huge amount of sense to me.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:44 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 63):
They don't pay for aerobridges at airports (BNE gate 74)

For some reason they switched to Gate 87 ~9months ago, unsure why. Not the point I know!
 
travelhound
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 61):
I am still baffled by the Jetstar long-haul wide-body business model

I think the Jetstar long haul business is based upon a low cost carrier (LCC) model. A part of that model is based upon offering tickets at a price point that stimulates demand in the market place. Both HA and QF (to a degree) offer tickets and capacity to meet underlying demand, so the models employed by each respective airline is different. You can't compare one with the other!

Jetstar are moving capacity (from Hawaii) to Phuket and Bali for the simple reason the price points for hotels, tours, etc are more in line with the a-typical Jetstar passenger in these regions. Again, moving capacity to best suit the market is part of a LCC model. This is simply an LCC doing what an LCC does when fundamentals (lower Australian dollar) change.
 
Thai77w
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:21 pm

Eta Unknown, are you saying the various articles quoting the CEO of ANA after the SYD launch that MEL and BNE were on the radar on the near future are not true?


You must be disappointed JQ are pulling out of HNL?
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eta unknown
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting Thai77w (Reply 67):
Eta Unknown, are you saying the various articles quoting the CEO of ANA after the SYD launch that MEL and BNE were on the radar on the near future are not true?

Yes. There were also some "misquotes" from a recent Star Alliance meeting just before the SYD inaugural... if you deal with ANA you will find lots- and I mean lots- of things get lost in translation! Australian expansion is completely dependant on SYD's performance and the timeline is nothing before 2018/2019- short term ANA international expansion is focusing on the UA joint venture. There is a rumour the only reason SYD was launched was due to QF changing their SYD flight from NRT to HND and ANA regarded this as an invasion of their home turf- a somewhat strange notion considering how long ANA had been out of the Australian market.

I also believe the NRT-BRU route will shortly be under the microscope as the service started just before the NOV bomb attacks and loads are very bad.

Quoting Thai77w (Reply 67):
You must be disappointed JQ are pulling out of HNL?

Neither pleased, nor disappointed. I do have a significant number of HA miles I want to redeem this year so I'm hoping they stick around for awhile!

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 65):
For some reason they switched to Gate 87 ~9months ago, unsure why. Not the point I know!

Another gate where they don't pay for an aerobridge!
 
747m8te
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:21 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 65):
For some reason they switched to Gate 87 ~9months ago, unsure why. Not the point I know!

There is less ground vehicle traffic around gate 87, making it safer for marshalling passengers across the tarmac on a regular basis. Problem with gate 74 is lots of traffic movement to GSE storage areas, and freighter aircraft servicing on adjacent bays.

They would have had to move eventually anyway as in the not so distant future they will be starting work on the terminal extensions adding additional gates 69-73.
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TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:36 am

Quoting 747m8te (Reply 69):
There is less ground vehicle traffic around gate 87, making it safer for marshalling passengers across the tarmac on a regular basis. Problem with gate 74 is lots of traffic movement to GSE storage areas, and freighter aircraft servicing on adjacent bays.

They would have had to move eventually anyway as in the not so distant future they will be starting work on the terminal extensions adding additional gates 69-73.

Very good points! Speaking of the extension, my understanding is these gates will be without airbridges? Who is the intended airline operator for these? Most of the current operators would unlikely jump at the opportunity even with the cost saving...

They appear to have a gate shortage at the moment so surely any expansion would be for some of the current capacity + room for expansion. The only current airlines I can think of that might be interested would be VA and NZ, but even then I'm not sure (VA more likely of the two, couldn't see NZ135/6 using a remote gate...).

Yes, there are rumours of XT but they were for a ~midnight arrival/departure so hardly peak period anyway and I don't see them poaching D7, TZ, HX or JQ (to NRT) away from OOL so LCC expansion seems unlikely.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:11 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 58):
The only place it could be done effectively is at security, where there could be an ID check with hologram readers etc like the TSA have,

The way the TSA examined my Australian passport last time I flew domestic in the USA is probably why I believe ID checks help contribute towards security and help make sure the correct person on the booking is flying - two staff examined it for about 30 seconds, subjected it to a hologram reader and put some kind of blue light various pages. It would have had to have been a damn good fake to get past these TSA folks! That was in AUS and I had to show my ID (Australian passport) three times; at check-in / bag drop, when going through security, and, again when boarding.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 59):
we have some ridiculous regulations (e.g. 100ml of liquid internationally).

I agree that some aspects of security seem a bit over the top but I don't feel that ID checking would be ridiculous or a waste of time.
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maxter
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:05 am

I keep hearing rumors of a new viewing platform at PER but I can't find anything other than the existing one at the 03 end of 03/21. Does anyon have any new information on this project?
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JQflightie
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:05 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 46):



Yes the did, even getting Medicare cards out to ID Children.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 47):

They didn't give me a heads up at all until the first customer was at the door and then they all proceeded to check all IDs, they said they were just doing spot checks.
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747m8te
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:51 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 70):
Very good points! Speaking of the extension, my understanding is these gates will be without airbridges? Who is the intended airline operator for these? Most of the current operators would unlikely jump at the opportunity even with the cost saving...

Not 100% but I thought I heard/read somewhere that two or three gates will be stand off with the other additional gates having bridges. Something along the lines of 69, 70, 71 being stand off gates (in the space currently occupied by the staff carpark & GSE storage area), and with 72, 73 & 74 getting aerobridges.

I guess these new gates would appeal to JQ and to VA for some flights, especially if they choose to switch their own DPS flights to TT services to cut costs.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:33 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 71):
The way the TSA examined my Australian passport last time I flew domestic in the USA is probably why I believe ID checks help contribute towards security and help make sure the correct person on the booking is flying - two staff examined it for about 30 seconds, subjected it to a hologram reader and put some kind of blue light various pages. It would have had to have been a damn good fake to get past these TSA folks!

And look how long the average line for security is in the USA. I agree that the TSA, an organisation I have less regard for than the dog poop on the bottom of my shoe, actually do a really good job of ensuring that IDs are genuine.

In Australia though there is no way that the business lobby (or the airlines) will permit the level of checks at security that mean they can no longer arrive at the airport 20 minutes before departure when their meeting runs overtime. An awful lot of very powerful interests will make sure that it doesn't happen here.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 71):
again when boarding

Unless you were flying to LHR, YYZ or SJD (AUS' only international routes) I can assure you that you didn't, unless the TSA set up a random secondary screening at the gate (which they can - and occasionally will - do). IDs are not checked during boarding for US domestic flights.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 71):
check-in / bag drop

In the US you will only be asked to show ID at check-in if you are checking a bag.

For all your grand standing in these threads, the USA is actually only half a step ahead of us, checking ID at security but not always at check-in and never at the gate. And don't forget that they have combined international and domestic ops. IMHO the standard of security for international flights departing from Australia is actually much, much better than the TSA.
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:56 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 75):
In Australia though there is no way that the business lobby (or the airlines) will permit the level of checks at security that mean they can no longer arrive at the airport 20 minutes before departure when their meeting runs overtime. An awful lot of very powerful interests will make sure that it doesn't happen here.

Of course. Dollars are much more important.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 75):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 71):
again when boarding

Unless you were flying to LHR, YYZ or SJD (AUS' only international routes) I can assure you that you didn't

I can assure you that it did happen:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 75):
unless the TSA set up a random secondary screening at the gate (which they can - and occasionally will - do).

Bingo! It was the TSA.

Apart from checking my ID again, the officer also went through my bag and did a pat-down including a brief brushing of my magic wand. They were doing two of us at a time off to the side of the boarding line. Whoever was at a certain 'spot' in the queue, when an officer was done checking the last person, was next. Perhaps it is my good luck but I get this gate screening on probably one out of every four US domestic flights I'm on. I appreciate the thorough security but I would appreciate it more if I saw the more terrorist looking types get picked once or twice to be screened instead of always picking Western looking folks - hey, I guess even the TSA need to be politically correct  
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 75):
In the US you will only be asked to show ID at check-in if you are checking a bag.

Then that explains why I always get carded by the check-in agent.

I always have checked baggage when in the USA.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 75):
For all your grand standing in these threads, the USA is actually only half a step ahead of us, checking ID at security but not always at check-in and never at the gate.

Always checking at security and sometimes at the gate for domestic flights in the US is at least a full step ahead of here where it's never at security and almost never at the gate for domestic flights (I have a feeling the AFP example JQflightie gave is far less common than TSA gate screening)  
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 75):
IMHO the standard of security for international flights departing from Australia is actually much, much better than the TSA.

Given that all of my recent experiences departing the USA have been via LAX, I can agree with that  
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CXfirst
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:32 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 76):
Of course. Dollars are much more important.

Personally, I think it is.

There is a limit of how much money should be spent. Absolutely anything can be made safer with more money pumped into it, not just in aviation. We have to look at the opportunity cost. Added ID checks will mean added time, which leads to added cost. Might seem trivial, but in the overall picture, that cost does become significant. And for what purpose? Increase the safety in an industry that I deem very safe overall, with no real security related safety issues in recent times.

-CXfirst
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:16 pm

I'm wondering if after one and a half threads of seemingly interminable back and forward on this question of ID checks, is it possible to cite any evidence (beyond simple assertions that "it would") that ID checks of all passengers would prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft.

V/F
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:08 pm

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 78):
I'm wondering if after one and a half threads of seemingly interminable back and forward on this question of ID checks, is it possible to cite any evidence (beyond simple assertions that "it would") that ID checks of all passengers would prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft.

And what type of evidence do you expect exists to satisfactorily determine the usefulness or uselessness of ID checks?

Similarly, one could ask to see evidence -(beyond simple assertions that it "would not")- that ID checks would not "prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft".

Maybe some data exists concerning incidents on US domestic flights before and after increased post 9/11 security but thorough ID checks are just one part of the increased security and I'm not sure if ID checks were as common before 9/11 - in other words - good luck finding data on whether the ID check element of security alone "would prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft" in order to determine how useful or useless ID checks are.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:55 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 75):
An awful lot of very powerful interests will make sure that it doesn't happen here.

Political lobbyists are powerful in America too, yet it didn't stop changes being implemented there.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 77):
There is a limit of how much money should be spent. Absolutely anything can be made safer with more money pumped into it, not just in aviation. We have to look at the opportunity cost.

Agreed - when it's riskier to drive to the airport than it is to fly as a passenger, money can be better spent elsewhere.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 79):
Similarly, one could ask to see evidence -(beyond simple assertions that it "would not")- that ID checks would not "prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft".

Generally the burden of proof lies with the party trying to implement a change.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 79):
good luck finding data on whether the ID check element of security alone "would prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft" in order to determine how useful or useless ID checks are.

Is there any data that the post 9/11 security changes combined have made flying safer?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:47 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 79):
Similarly, one could ask to see evidence -(beyond simple assertions that it "would not")- that ID checks would not "prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft".

Only if one was struggling to justify their position on the matter.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:53 am

Quoting vhebb (Reply 60):

Depending on the wording of your source (based on how you've written your post), id say it sounds more like an existing route to be changed to A330 rather than a new route - and this could be an up or down grade.
How are the PER-SIN flights looking. Could it be upgauged to a 330 on say a 3pw basis?

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 78):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 79):
Similarly, one could ask to see evidence -(beyond simple assertions that it "would not")- that ID checks would not "prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft".

And proponents of both of these positions have not put forward any evidence to support their positions.

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 80):
Generally the burden of proof lies with the party trying to implement a change.

True, but on these boards it is about thoughts and ideas, and if you've got an idea, supporting evidence is needed to convince people that your idea is right.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:02 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 82):
How are the PER-SIN flights looking. Could it be upgauged to a 330 on say a 3pw basis?

Hopefully, as a minimum, they'll keep at least 1 daily flight, but perhaps a 3 weekly 330 and 4 weekly 737 could work well.

But, seeing as PER-SIN is slowly increasing to 10 weekly, I could see the route warrant a daily A330 again. Doesn't have to be the A330-300, the -200 would probably be a better fit, at least initially.

-CXfirst
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:29 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 83):

, Yes a 332 would probably be better as it could fit into the existing domestic runs.

But I think a year round 3 X weekly PER-AKL would be a better use of a A330, with AirNZ pretty much having a monopoly on the route, with essentially twice daily flights to NZ
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:42 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 82):
How are the PER-SIN flights looking. Could it be upgauged to a 330 on say a 3pw basis?

I think that's just asking for trouble. The market appears to be happily supporting the 737 service so there is nothing to be gained by adding A330s except for creating inconsistencies and drawing attention to just how terrible the 737 product is for 5hr+ flights like PER-SIN.

I'd prefer to see the A330s on routes that actually utilise their capabilities.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:38 am

From 2nd April 2016 Malindo Air will increase PER from 11 to 12 weekly

OD151 KUL0825 – 1410PER 738 D
OD155 KUL2315 – 0505+1PER 738 x23

OD156 PER0735 – 1330KUL 738 x34
OD152 PER1500 – 2055KUL 738 D

http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/08/od-per-s16/
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:41 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 83):

Yep, thats what I meant, sorry for the confusion.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 85):

And those are fair points.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:43 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 80):
Generally the burden of proof lies with the party trying to implement a change.

Then you can ask the AFP and security experts for the 'evidence' they relied upon to reach their conclusion about ID checks.


Select quotes, again:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-2...hecks-at-domestic-airports/7205600

"With the rise of domestic airport self-service check-ins, police and security experts are calling for identity checks for domestic air passengers, to prevent criminals and fugitives boarding flights under false names."

"Roger Henning, an aviation security consultant, said fugitives or potentially dangerous passengers could board under someone else's name.

"It's really only a matter of time before all this catches up with us," Mr Henning said.

He said passengers should have to show some photo ID before boarding a plane.

"If they can do it at an RSL, they can do it an airport," he said."

"In a submission to Federal Parliament last year, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) called for "identification to be produced with a boarding pass, prior to any person boarding a flight"."

"Geoff Askew, former head of Qantas security, agreed there was little stopping people from flying under fake names.

"Boarding passes can be swapped, so the person who purchased the ticket is not necessarily the person who travels," Mr Askew said.

However, he said effective security screening reduced the chance of a person bringing harm to an aircraft."

"Mr Askew said while identity checks would be useful to the intelligence community, they would be difficult for airlines to implement."

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 80):
Is there any data that the post 9/11 security changes combined have made flying safer?

I don't know, is there?

I have never looked because I have no doubt that post 9/11 security changes have made flying safer.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 81):
Only if one was struggling to justify their position on the matter.

That is exactly why the opposite was asked by those who claim that ID checks wouldn't make flying safer.

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 82):
And proponents of both of these positions have not put forward any evidence to support their positions.

Would the AFP and security experts not have any evidence / valid reasons to support their position?

All opponents of the ID check position called for by the AFP and security experts have offered is "it won't make a difference" or "is there any evidence that it will make a difference?"

I have no doubt that flying is safer to some extent when passengers go through proper ID checks compared to when there are no ID checks so anybody can be on a plane.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:07 pm

Eva air is sending their hello kitty jet B-16311 tomorrow to BNE. 2nd ever visit of one.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:52 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 88):

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 82):And proponents of both of these positions have not put forward any evidence to support their positions.
Would the AFP and security experts not have any evidence / valid reasons to support their position?

All opponents of the ID check position called for by the AFP and security experts have offered is "it won't make a difference" or "is there any evidence that it will make a difference?"

I have no doubt that flying is safer to some extent when passengers go through proper ID checks compared to when there are no ID checks so anybody can be on a plane.

Im talking about the people on these boards. You are the first to provide support for your view I believe.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:09 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 19):
By the very same (condescending) logic, we should have security and I.D. checks at all train stations (and bus stations). Someone could easily bring a gun, knife or even a bomb onto a packed train (600 people) or bus (50 people) and could cause significant fatalities.

Well, certain Queensland train stations got rid of their rubbish bins just incase a terrorist were to hide a bomb of some kind in them. All of this made it clear that there truly is no limit to the extent to which the security-industrial-complex (and the politicians who serve them) will go to inconvenience the common man (or woman) when it comes to fighting terrorism.

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 78):
I'm wondering if after one and a half threads of seemingly interminable back and forward on this question of ID checks, is it possible to cite any evidence (beyond simple assertions that "it would") that ID checks of all passengers would prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft.

  
First to fly the 787-9
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:12 am

Just been informed that this morning's EK flights were either delayed by a few hours or cancelled due to bad weather in DXB, EK412 to SYD, EK434 to BNE & EK406 to MEL were delayed up to 4 hours, while EK424 to PER was cancelled
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:06 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 92):
Just been informed that this morning's EK flights were either delayed by a few hours or cancelled due to bad weather in DXB, EK412 to SYD, EK434 to BNE & EK406 to MEL were delayed up to 4 hours, while EK424 to PER was cancelled

Doesn't look good for EK413 this evening... unless they can turn it really quickly at AKL!
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:00 pm

Today's (Friday) EK412 is running behind as well as it diverted to CMB, appears to be medical

http://twitter.com/hashtag/EK412?src=hash
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:24 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 79):
And what type of evidence do you expect exists to satisfactorily determine the usefulness or uselessness of ID checks?

It depends on what the rationale for the checks is. A few thoughts:
- If we're concerned about unlawful interference with an aircraft, a comparison of the number or frequency of events of unlawful interference with an aircraft in jurisdictions which do and don't have ID checks. It would also be useful not know how many events of unlawful interference there have been over a given time frame, and how many of these would have likely been prevented by ID checks.
- If we're concerned about interstate crime, a comparison of the rates of interjurisdictional crime in places which do and don't have ID checks. And again it would be useful to know how prevalent this issue is, and whether ID checks as proposed would prevent many cases of it.
- If we're concerned about people travelling under someone else's details, an indication of how significant this issue is, and whether the cost involved in instituting ID checks is justified by the benefit or not.

As you rightly point out, some of this data may be difficult to come by, although it shouldn't be impossible.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 79):
Similarly, one could ask to see evidence -(beyond simple assertions that it "would not")- that ID checks would not "prevent unlawful acts being carried out on board an aircraft".

I'm not so concerned about ID checks being unable to stop unlawful interference, as I am with unlawful interference being such a rare event already that there would be little tangible benefit to it. As a general rule when something is being proposed to be introduced, the burden of proof rests with the proposer to show that such a thing is necessary. Otherwise we could propose all manner of things. Why not do detailed security interviews of each passenger like El Al does? Why not prevent passengers from moving about the cabin when within a certain flight time (30 minutes? 1 hour?) of a major city like used to be the rule at DCA (not sure if it still is)? Why not train the cabin crew in the use of tasers? Why not have German shepherd dogs on standby at either end of the cabin? Why not have a sharpshooter at the front of the cabin to take out anyone being nefarious. Now before you tell me these are ridiculous ideas, I think we can safely say each of them could hypothetically neutralise someone trying to unlawfully interfere with the aircraft, just as an ID check could hypothetically prevent certain individuals who might act unlawfully from getting on board an aircraft. I could even point out if you objected to any of these proposals:

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 14):
Perhaps if you or your family is on an incident flight in the future you might change your tone and lax attitude towards security.

The question though is how necessary would any of these procedures be? Is there a more cost effective way of doing things? Is the problem they are supposed to address actually a significant problem.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:02 am

I don't want to be a downer, but is it just me or has aviation in Australia of late been a little less exciting than it was say 3 or 4 years ago? I mean its great to see QF (and the industry) doing better, but has that come at the cost of spark, intreague etc? I mean on the QF front, all we need now is the seat count of the 789s and what routes its going to fly and there really isn't much more to know for now. Anyone feel simlar?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:19 am

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 95):
As a general rule when something is being proposed to be introduced, the burden of proof rests with the proposer to show that such a thing is necessary.

For the second time:

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 88):
Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 80):
Generally the burden of proof lies with the party trying to implement a change.



Then you can ask the AFP and security experts for the 'evidence' they relied upon to reach their conclusion about ID checks.

Select quotes, again:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-2...hecks-at-domestic-airports/7205600

"With the rise of domestic airport self-service check-ins, police and security experts are calling for identity checks for domestic air passengers, to prevent criminals and fugitives boarding flights under false names."

Perhaps you could ask the AFP and security experts under some kind of FOI request for the information / evidence they relied upon to reach their conclusion about ID checks?

The only numbers I have are the following:

'Between 2013 and 2016, 60 people were charged with flying under false names.' - From the above article.

and...

'Two Australians a day removed from flights following potential security risk threats'

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/30968182/...g-potential-security-risk-threats/

"New figures show an average of two Australians per day are being removed from flights by counter-terrorism units on national security grounds.

A large number of the passengers being “removed” are suspected of trying to reach the Middle East to join terrorism organisations.

Figures confirmed by Yahoo7 show that since August 2014, where counter terrorism units have been active there have been 652 “offloads” of passengers in total.

Mostly alarmingly however half of these “offloads” have reportedly occurred in the past seven months resulting in the rate of passenger “removal” increasing by around 60 per cent.

“Offloads” are categorised as interventions to remove people from a flight on suspicion that they may possibly pose a national security risk.

Immigration Minister Peter Dutton confirmed to Yahoo7 that there has been a significant rise in the total number of people being “offloaded” from aircrafts by counter terrorism units in conjunction with Australian Border Force and the Australian Federal Police."

Quoting qf789 (Reply 94):
Today's (Friday) EK412 is running behind as well as it diverted to CMB, appears to be medical

The more seats that get crammed into planes the greater the chance for a human to go tech / medical  
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:48 am

From 29 October 2016 VN will operate 787-9 to both SYD & MEL on a daily basis

VN781 SGN2110 – 0925+1MEL 787 D
VN780 MEL1125 – 1540SGN 787 D

VN773 SGN2130 – 0950+1SYD 787 D
VN772 SYD1150 – 1615SGN 787 D

http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/10/vn-australia-w16/

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 137

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:50 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 96):
I don't want to be a downer, but is it just me or has aviation in Australia of late been a little less exciting than it was say 3 or 4 years ago?
Quoting QF2220 (Reply 96):
Anyone feel simlar?

I feel the same.

IMHO, things were much more exciting when QF had the awesome 767s, and more A330 widebody frequencies than now, flying on the SYD / MEL / BNE routes.

There is nothing exciting about more 737s IMHO.

Having said that, I do still enjoy the discussions / speculation about future QF fleet types and routes - but then again, there are only so many obvious options to discuss.
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