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rotating14
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WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:58 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/westjet-planes-idUSL2N16900P

Quote:


Feb 29 WestJet Airlines Ltd has started talks with aircraft makers on replacements for its fleet of Boeing 767-300 planes, with delivery of the new planes expected by the end of this decade.

The Calgary-based airline is talking with Boeing Co and Airbus Group on options to replace the 767, an extended range aircraft that will serve Europe starting in May, Chief Executive Officer Gregg Saretsky told Reuters on Monday.

"At some point we will have to replace these 767s with next-generation widebody aircraft and we are talking with both Boeing and Airbus around the possibilities," said Saretsky, adding the new planes would enter Westjet's fleet in 2019 or 2020.

Westjet currently has three 767s and expects delivery of a fourth in April, with all four dedicated to non-stop flights to London's Gatwick airport from five Canadian cities.

The airline is also in the market for more 767s, as it looks to build out its Europe-focused fleet. Westjet offers seasonal flights from Canada to Dublin, Ireland and Glasgow, Scotland.

Initially I thought of this a s peculiar but upon further thought, it's sound. They obviously are (1) finding new opportunities for the jets that are coming and (2) they need more 767's for either more frequencies or possibly new destinations. This in my mind has "Boeing, I'll wait and see what you can give in a MOM but if it's iffy, we'll have to move on" written all over it. Opinions and thoughts please.
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:06 am

There isn't any reason for WestJet to choose the 787 over the A350 so it will be interesting to see where/if they end up ordering from. I wonder if Airbus might push the 330NEO at them hard with a good deal. They are certainly pushing the 763s hard as it is, so this isn't a total shock development.
 
Viscount724
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:16 am

I find the WS comments strange. When they announced that they were acquiring the 4 763s they said it was basically an experiment which could quickly be terminated at minimal cost if it wasn't profitable. Since they haven't even started the LGW flights yet, and only very recently started flying the 763s on the seasonal YYC/YEG-Hawaii routes, they obviously don't know whether the widebody operation is going to be successful, so talking about ordering new aircraft to replace the 763s seems very premature.
 
32andBelow
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:57 am

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 1):
There isn't any reason for WestJet to choose the 787 over the A350 so it will be interesting to see where/if they end up ordering from. I wonder if Airbus might push the 330NEO at them hard with a good deal. They are certainly pushing the 763s hard as it is, so this isn't a total shock development.

They have an all Boeing Jet Fleet. Staying in the ecosystem does have its merits.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:04 am

Sounds like the inclusion of Airbus in the mix is a negotiating ploy to drive a better deal on 787's. Besides the LGW destinations 787's could be used on HNL routes and also YVR-HKG/HND/NRT/ICN/China possibly. Vancouver has a large Asian population and would only make sense that they may try some destinations to Asia. Just my .02.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:08 am

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 4):

Sounds like the inclusion of Airbus in the mix is a negotiating ploy to drive a better deal on 787's.

I know they said "next generation" but certainly an A330neo would be a nice option as well.

-Dave
 
jimbo737
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:27 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 3):

WS has 2 years experience in DUB and 1 in GLA from MUCH smaller markets, with 170 seat capacity vs 260 seats from much LARGER markets with all kinds of network feed, so they already know what to look for when it comes to advance TATL bookings. Perhaps advance bookings are such that it has become obvious LGW is already a huge success?

If you try to book a flight from Canada to London, you will see WS's fares to LGW starting May 6 are often HIGHER than AC's fares to LHR.

That suggests they are trying to slow down booking velocity to ensure that there is sufficient capacity remaining for those people wanting to book within 10 days of departure. They don't want to sell out and leave AC with the ability to charge what they want for fares booked a few days prior to departure.

As WJ always does, they will slash fares not only on long advance purchases, but also on flights booked a week out, or even for same day.

That's where the real damage is done to competitors yields in the marketplace. We don't get to see that chapter until the last week of April.

Until Asia fares firm up considerably, I think WS will be happy focusing on Europe.

Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
 
Prost
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:34 am

I smell an A330Neo order here. It's a natural progression from the 767-300, as I don't see WestJet needing the full capabilities of the 787-9 nor the A350-900/1000.
 
b747400erf
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:53 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
I find the WS comments strange.

I don't. It's a subtle advertisement for their 767 routes that costs nothing.
 
Beatyair
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:13 am

Westjet started with 737-200's. moved to 737-700, then -600's, and finally 800's. I see them doing the same thing here.
Start with 767-300ER's and move to the 787-8's and if they require more seating on a route go to a 787-9. Now, I think if there was the 757 replacement out there they may go that way.

They used to fly/Lease North American 767's to fly to Hawaii from Alberta. I think they found them too big, They then had a an agreement with Thomas Cook the have 757's fly that route and I think they were happy with the size of this aircraft. Now, they have gone back to a 767-300 with 262 passengers. If they go with the 787-8 thse will be around the 295 mark.
I can't see them with a A350, too big. The A330-200 would probably be the right size, but an old airframe. In addition, there 767 servicing is being done by Delta. I wonder if that will play into there choose.

If I was betting, it would be the 787-family, it gives them the most flexibility. Plus, like there 737 fleet, you only have to train your pilots for one wide-body fleet type and servicing/parts would be easier.
 
saloman
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:21 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 8):
I don't. It's a subtle advertisement for their 767 routes that costs nothing.

His comments likely came from press availability for their 20th anniversary celebrations, so probably not any deliberate media ploy although it is not bad attention to have.

Like others have said, the discussions seem preliminary so WS will have plenty of time between now and an eventual order to assess their current success/failure in the long-haul market. If you take a look at the 737 fleet, you'll note that it doesn't seem to be in the WS business model to operate older aircraft, so I'm not that surprised that they're already exploring replacing the 767 with something new.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:21 am

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 1):
I wonder if Airbus might push the 330NEO at them hard with a good deal.
Quoting planesntrains (Reply 5):
I know they said "next generation" but certainly an A330neo would be a nice option as well.
Quoting Prost (Reply 7):
I smell an A330Neo order here. It's a natural progression from the 767-300, as I don't see WestJet needing the full capabilities of the 787-9

This could be the break the A338NEO needs...    ...

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1436517234_A330-800neo_Airbus_RR_V07.jpg


The A339 is a bit short-legged and quite a jump in capacity from the 767, while the 788 could be pricey. And if servicing would be by DL, then they will have something in common.

[Edited 2016-02-29 21:51:21]
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:54 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 11):
And if servicing would be by DL, then they will have something in common.

That's the case no matter what they get....

....DL does/will operate the 763ER, A330, A330NEO, 787, A350 and 777 all within the next few years, and likely do some level of service on 'em all.
 
jetwet1
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:13 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
I find the WS comments strange. When they announced that they were acquiring the 4 763s they said it was basically an experiment which could quickly be terminated at minimal cost if it wasn't profitable. Since they haven't even started the LGW flights yet, and only very recently started flying the 763s on the seasonal YYC/YEG-Hawaii routes, they obviously don't know whether the widebody operation is going to be successful, so talking about ordering new aircraft to replace the 763s seems very premature.

Not really, every now and again in business you hit a home run, in this case, it could well be that WS has quickly figured out they can shift a limited number of widebodies around the network and the business is there to justify the expense of new aircraft, it's not like we are talking about an EK sized order here, an order for 10 should meet their near term needs.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:40 am

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 9):


They used to fly/Lease North American 767's to fly to Hawaii from Alberta. I think they found them too big, They then had a an agreement with Thomas Cook the have 757's fly that route and I think they were happy with the size of this aircraft. Now, they have gone back to a 767-300 with 262 passengers. If they go with the 787-8 thse will be around the 295 mark.
I can't see them with a A350, too big. The A330-200 would probably be the right size, but an old airframe. In addition, there 767 servicing is being done by Delta. I wonder if that will play into there choose.


The North American wet lease was B757s....

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):

I find the WS comments strange. When they announced that they were acquiring the 4 763s they said it was basically an experiment which could quickly be terminated at minimal cost if it wasn't profitable. Since they haven't even started the LGW flights yet, and only very recently started flying the 763s on the seasonal YYC/YEG-Hawaii routes, they obviously don't know whether the widebody operation is going to be successful, so talking about ordering new aircraft to replace the 763s seems very premature.


I'm sure they have a pretty good idea what advanced bookings are like for LGW. I'm guessing it's good, YYC has already been extended to year round service.
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:20 am

They are playing with fire. WestJet even had to modify its livery because nobody even knew the airline outside of Canada. What makes them think international operations will be so successful?

Besides how can they plan the replacement of their 767 fleet if they only just received them and they are still waiting for the final one? They think they are EK?
 
laca773
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:28 am

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 9):
Westjet started with 737-200's. moved to 737-700, then -600's, and finally 800's. I see them doing the same thing here.
Start with 767-300ER's and move to the 787-8's and if they require more seating on a route go to a 787-9. Now, I think if there was the 757 replacement out there they may go that way.

They used to fly/Lease North American 767's to fly to Hawaii from Alberta. I think they found them too big, They then had a an agreement with Thomas Cook the have 757's fly that route and I think they were happy with the size of this aircraft. Now, they have gone back to a 767-300 with 262 passengers. If they go with the 787-8 thse will be around the 295 mark.
I can't see them with a A350, too big. The A330-200 would probably be the right size, but an old airframe. In addition, there 767 servicing is being done by Delta. I wonder if that will play into there choose.

If I was betting, it would be the 787-family, it gives them the most flexibility. Plus, like there 737 fleet, you only have to train your pilots for one wide-body fleet type and servicing/parts would be easier.

The 787-8 seems like a great fit for WS. It keeps it in the Boeing family, reducing costs, and looking at the 330NEO, A350s, that's quite a jump in capacity.
I hope this works out for them.
 
cyeg66
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:07 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):
They are playing with fire. WestJet even had to modify its livery because nobody even knew the airline outside of Canada. What makes them think international operations will be so successful?

Besides how can they plan the replacement of their 767 fleet if they only just received them and they are still waiting for the final one? They think they are EK?

It's a good thing they have a well paid team of execs to make these decisions. That should alleviate most if not all your concerns.
 
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enzo011
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:32 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):
The 787-8 seems like a great fit for WS. It keeps it in the Boeing family, reducing costs, and looking at the 330NEO, A350s, that's quite a jump in capacity.

If delivery is for 2019 would Boeing have the available slots? Would they also be keen to deliver 788s? The only reason I could see for a 787 order would be commonality. The A330neo should beat it on price and availability and Airbus will have no problem selling them A338 at a very good price. The capacity wouldn't be a problem either, unless they go 9-abreast in the A330s.
 
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scbriml
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:46 am

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 5):
I know they said "next generation" but certainly an A330neo would be a nice option as well.

Well, they're certainly "next generation" compared to 2nd-hand 767s. A338s would also likely be the cheapest option and a very good fit for Westjet.

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):

Boy, who crapped in your coffee this morning?
 
behramjee
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:17 am

In my opinion, if WS is really serious about the long term investment it needs to make for its wide body jet operations then it should adopt the below mentioned strategy:

Note - Published purchase price of B789 is US$ 265M where as A339 costs US$ 288M and A359 US$ 308M; however actual final purchase price is usually 50% discounted !

1. Purchase 10 jets to realize synergies and obtain a decent discounted offer from either Boeing or Airbus

2. Base 5 jets out of YYZ and YVR respectively for Asia (YVR base) and Europe (YYZ) operations

3. It would be best to buy a modern aircraft with the latest flight avionics hence opt for the B789 as its future re-sale value + on board seating capacity is better suited for WS rather than the larger A359.

4. The B789 should be easily capable of having 361 seats on board in a dual class configuration (28 premium economy 2-3-2 + 333 economy) offering very good operating costs per seat unit on flights under 10 hours of flying time even if price of oil increases to $60-70 per barrel.

5. It should only look at routes within a 10 hour flying radius nonstop of YYZ and YVR with the 361 seater B789. Anything longer than that and the profitability margins become extremely challenging even at $50 oil price! Another reason why I said 10 hours max is because the same aircraft can be flown back to hub base within a 24 hour day period including ground time. FYI block time of a B787-9 with flying speed at 490 knots from YVR to Asia is as follows:

YVR/ICN - 9 hours 35 minutes
YVR/PEK - 9 hours 55 minutes (getting desired slot timings will be a big challenge)
YVR/NRT - 8 hours 50 minutes
YVR/PVG - 10 hours 30 minutes (getting desired slot timings will be a big challenge)
YVR/HKG - 11 hours 50 minutes (hence a no go route)
YVR/MNL - 12 hours 10 minutes (hence a no go route)
YVR/TPE - 11 hours 5 minutes (hence a no go route)
YVR/LGW - 9 hours

6. In the winter season when volume based demand from YYZ to Europe evaporates the aircraft based out of YYZ should be operating to London + selected U.S. , Caribbean destinations only such as Barbados, HNL, LAS, LAX and Florida. Or in order to take advantage of the "Chinese new year season + winter holidays" (between DEC-FEB), it can re-allocate 2 of the YYZ based aircraft to YVR to boost YVR-Asia frequencies.

7. For the YVR long haul hub to be effective, WS first must have a strong bank of U.S. bound flights to generate transfer traffic volume to feed YVR-Asia.

8. WS needs to have strong interline / code sharing agreements in Asia and Europe especially LGW in order to get incremental revenue generating opportunities.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:24 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):
They are playing with fire.

How so?

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):
WestJet even had to modify its livery because nobody even knew the airline outside of Canada.

Oooooh yes, that's right. They've had to make a huge change.   

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):
What makes them think international operations will be so successful?

How about their current advanced bookings?

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):
Besides how can they plan the replacement of their 767 fleet if they only just received them and they are still waiting for the final one?

Have you heard of strategy, planning, preparing the future, keeping options open?

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):
They think they are EK?

You really sound like you know better than them what THEY should do.
 
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enzo011
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:48 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 20):
The B789 should be easily capable of having 361 seats on board in a dual class configuration (28 premium economy 2-3-2 + 333 economy) offering very good operating costs per seat unit on flights under 10 hours of flying time even if price of oil increases to $60-70 per barrel.

That is 100 seats per flight more than their current 767s. Is that not too much of a jump in capacity? Seems that the 788 or A338 would be better for an airline that only has a handful of 767 at present. Learn to walk before you run. Airbus would be able to offer a price that would offset most if not all of the cost of fleet integration. This is the price pressure that Airbus is able to offer above the 787.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:02 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 12):
That's the case no matter what they get....

....DL does/will operate the 763ER, A330, A330NEO, 787, A350 and 777 all within the next few years

A lot of people do not see DL following through with their 'inherited' 788 order nor converting it to 789s anytime soon. Otherwise, they would have gotten those instead of the A330NEOs. In any case, I don't think WS would change a decision to order the A338NEO just because DL finally pulled the trigger on the 787s.

OTOH, the A350 and 777 are simply too big.

[Edited 2016-03-01 03:26:32]
 
behramjee
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:44 am

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 22):
That is 100 seats per flight more than their current 767s. Is that not too much of a jump in capacity? Seems that the 788 or A338 would be better for an airline that only has a handful of 767 at present. Learn to walk before you run. Airbus would be able to offer a price that would offset most if not all of the cost of fleet integration. This is the price pressure that Airbus is able to offer above the 787.

problem is that the resale value down the road for A338 and B788 is not as good as the B789/A359.

The B763ER aircraft was an "experiment aircraft" for WS. Yes the B788 may be the ideal option (capacity wise) but for the business model that they operate with, its best to stick with a slightly larger aircraft offering incremental revenue opportunities with minimal additional costs incurred. The A359 I did not opt for as its too big where as the B789 is nicely suited. Note that Norwegian operate the same business model for long haul like WS are undertaking and they too are basing their future on the B789 rather than the B788 !
 
roseflyer
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:19 pm

It will be fun to see who comes away with an order. They are a long standing Boeing customer, but I could see them going any direction. Flying long haul is a new venture for them.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 19):
A338s would also likely be the cheapest option and a very good fit for Westjet.

It is also the least efficient of the next generation widebodies. Will Westjet go for cheaper and less efficient or spend more on a plane that is more efficient? Their competitor Air Canada chose the 787. Will Westjet copy or be different?

[Edited 2016-03-01 05:25:29]
 
DeltaB717
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:37 pm

Wow the haters have been busy today, haven't they!

First point, this is nothing more than a request for proposals. It's not an order, it's not options, it's not even a letter of intent. They are merely testing the waters with Boeing & Airbus, the result of which is likely to be a key factor in their future decisions.

Secondly, as has already been mentioned, the YYC has already been made year-round before the first flight departs. That their fares are, for some services, higher than AC to LHR speaks volumes. They have, what, 6-11 months of forward bookings to go on and there was a comment about pursuing other opportunities for the 76Ws. For all we know there are half a dozen other airports approaching WS for 76W services. Sounds to me like the experiment is working out well... which makes now a great time to start sussing out their options.

Finally, thanks for the laugh on the change of livery. Big change... the widget becomes a widget with a maple leaf shape to part of it. They already had a presence in GLA & DUB (LGW, too, with the 737? Or not yet?) so the brand has some substance to it. Oh, and there's all those videos about Westjetters doing good deeds that go viral on YouTube!
 
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rotating14
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:40 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 25):
It is also the least efficient of the next generation widebodies. Will Westjet go for cheaper and less efficient or spend more on a plane that is more efficient? Their competitor Air Canada chose the 787. Will Westjet copy or be different?

The dynamic is similar to that of NH and JL in Japan. I see the 787 taking the order for the replacements if the production rate of 12 holds firm with no hiccups with the 787-10 introduction.
 
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scbriml
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:57 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 25):
It is also the least efficient of the next generation widebodies.

As long as WestJet don't need the full range of the 787, the A330neo will be very competitive and available much sooner. Heck, Airbus is still selling A330ceos!

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 25):
Their competitor Air Canada chose the 787.

The A330neo wasn't available when AC made that decision. That's not to say they wouldn't have still chosen the 787, but the neo wasn't an option for them.
 
roseflyer
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:06 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 28):

As long as WestJet don't need the full range of the 787, the A330neo will be very competitive and available much sooner. Heck, Airbus is still selling A330ceos!

The article and delivery timeframe would rule out A330ceos. This will be a good test for the 787 vs A330neo and maybe even the A350. Westjet has no connection with either the A330 or 787, so either side can just as easily win the order.
 
Thomaas
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:07 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 28):
Quoting roseflyer (Reply 25):
Their competitor Air Canada chose the 787.

The A330neo wasn't available when AC made that decision. That's not to say they wouldn't have still chosen the 787, but the neo wasn't an option for them.

I think that the 787 is much better suited for ACs use than the A330neo BUT the later would fit nicely in Rouge's fleet once they decide to replace the 767s.
 
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scbriml
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:16 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
The article and delivery timeframe would rule out A330ceos.

Yes, I wasn't suggesting ceos for WestJet.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
Westjet has no connection with either the A330 or 787, so either side can just as easily win the order.

Agreed.
 
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Erebus
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:28 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
Westjet has no connection with either the A330 or 787, so either side can just as easily win the order.

But they do have a good relationship with Boeing. And from a pilot training perspective, wouldn't the 787 go better with the MAX?

I'm not saying that Airbus can't win this, but it will be a bit of a challenge for them.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:32 pm

Quoting Erebus (Reply 32):
I'm not saying that Airbus can't win this, but it will be a bit of a challenge for them.

I'd say it's about just as probable as the Maple Leafs winning the Stanley cup. May happen, but...
 
chrisp390
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:11 pm

The talk within Westjet says they are looking at Germany for next year and they were looking at HKG from YVR potentially. The order does seem a bit premature but the transatlantic operation must be working out well so far or they would not be pushing ahead like this.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):

They are playing with fire. WestJet even had to modify its livery because nobody even knew the airline outside of Canada. What makes them think international operations will be so successful?

Besides how can they plan the replacement of their 767 fleet if they only just received them and they are still waiting for the final one? They think they are EK?


Ha ha......love the experts....
 
Beatyair
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:36 pm

One other thing, Westjet really likes Boeing. Secondly, The "mountain" tail logo would not look good on the small tails Airbus has. But to be Honest, at 2019/2020 the 787 should have a reduced cost by then. The A330 is still a old frame with new engines and my still cost less at that time, but it has not been tested yet. The A350, is a great plane, but Airbus started large to fill the segment between the the A330 and the B777. Still think it is too big for Westjet at this time. So, if they went this route they would have to go big, right off the bat. I think they would feel more comfortable going with a plane closer to the size of what they have now and has been tested and has a larger family to grow into.
 
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Acey
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:40 pm

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 35):
Ha ha......love the experts....

No kidding.

The fact that 763 loads have been outstanding out of YEG and YYC to Hawaii, (as well as bookings across the system to LGW) is no doubt a factor in WS potentially seeking more lift. I can't speak to yields, nor the extent to which the various mx snags on these old birds have hurt the bottom line up to this point, but I suspect minor snags were expected and "budgeted" for, and ops have been exactly how WS could have hoped for thus far.
 
Sooner787
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:11 pm

The 788's and 789's are working great for the likes of Norwegian.

No reason to think Westjet couldn't enjoy the same level of success.

IMHO, this is Boeing's order to lose
 
A320FlyGuy
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:53 pm

The issue that I have with WestJet is simply this: service. Having flown Air Canada on several recent TATL flights, Air Canada hit it right out of the park. The service was superb and the food excellent. I had all the drinks that I wanted and never wanted for anything. If I were flying WestJet, I would be nickel and dimed for everything that I wanted on the flight and I'm paying a higher fare for flying into a secondary airport. Not only that, but there is no decent frequent flyer program. I don't care what people say about Air Canada - they did a wonderful job and I wouldn't even consider WestJet on a long haul flight. They need to focus on what they do well short - medium range flights within North America and to certain vacation destinations.

I also get tired of the WestJet cabin crews that can't decide if they want to be stand up comedians or flight attendants. Air Canada had professional, mature and extremely competent cabin crews that really would make WestJet cabin crews look like the amateurs that they are. I'm sorry, but WestJet leaves me cold.....I also thought that it was laughable that they published a video on YouTube talking about their "brand new" 767s....last time I checked, a plane that is over 20 years old is hardly brand new.
 
SXDFC
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:13 pm

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 39):

Air Canada and Westjet have two different business models, and were built around two different needs. Westjet was intended (perhaps still is?) a LCC and it explains the contrast in experiences you had between the two carriers. Since you're from Canada I'd imagine you knew about this prior to you boarding your flight. With many TRs on this site depicting terrible FA's, I'd take a amateur comedian over a jaded crew member any day.. The video on the 767 makes sense because although the 767 maybe old hat to many airlines, its a "brand new" adventure for WS. Just my two cents.. Take it for whatever its worth..
 
threepoint
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:27 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Since they haven't even started the LGW flights yet, and only very recently started flying the 763s on the seasonal YYC/YEG-Hawaii routes, they obviously don't know whether the widebody operation is going to be successful, so talking about ordering new aircraft to replace the 763s seems very premature.

Hardly. The true operating costs of the 767 have been cast in stone for decades now, so it's not like they're waiting to see if projected outlays will be on the mark or not. As for premature, if you wait to order a brand new airplane when you absolutely positively know you'll need it, it is likely too late and your place in the queue could be years beyond an ideal entry date. WS is known to be a proactive company.
 
jimbo737
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 40):

These sort of comments have been the norm since WS started over 20 years ago.

WS has managed to carry over 240 million passengers since then and been profitable every year but one, and that was the year they wrote down the entire 737-200 fleet in one year instead of hanging on to them for another 5 years.

The toughest WS seat to get over the past two summers have been to Dublin and last summer, Glasgow, and that was with 160 seats from YYT and YHZ respectively, two small markets, with one stop from Toronto.

As was the case the last two years, with Dublin and Glasgow, WS has reported advance bookings to London are huge. I'll bet they wish they'd been able to launch double daily from Toronto.

You might not want to fly WS to Europe, but there plenty of people who plan to.

I fully expect to see additional frequencies to London in the spring / summer of 2017 and I would not be at all surprised to see WS start into Germany too.

Europe is "fresh meat" for WS. Nothing they start has any impact on existing routes.

On the other hand, do routes like YUL-LYS to traffic away from YUL-CDG?
 
Viscount724
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:25 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 21):
Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 15):
What makes them think international operations will be so successful?

How about their current advanced bookings?

Bookings and yields are very different things. WS also lacks the premium traffic that help boost BA and AC yields. And even if they did have a proper J class product, that traffic prefers LHR not LGW. WS is mainly targeting TS but it's debatable how much of the price-sensitive leisure and VFR traffic there is, especially outside the few peak summer months. The Canadian dollar also was much stronger when WS announced the 763 plans.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 41):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Since they haven't even started the LGW flights yet, and only very recently started flying the 763s on the seasonal YYC/YEG-Hawaii routes, they obviously don't know whether the widebody operation is going to be successful, so talking about ordering new aircraft to replace the 763s seems very premature.

Hardly. The true operating costs of the 767 have been cast in stone for decades now, so it's not like they're waiting to see if projected outlays will be on the mark or not. As for premature, if you wait to order a brand new airplane when you absolutely positively know you'll need it, it is likely too late and your place in the queue could be years beyond an ideal entry date. WS is known to be a proactive company.

I'm only going on what WS said when they announced the 767 plans, that it was an experiment and they wanted to see how it would work and would terminate it quickly if it turned out not to be profitable.
 
robsaw
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:42 am

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 39):
The issue that I have with WestJet is ...

If you don't want Westjet to succeed just say so instead of advising them to avoid trying to compete with AC. Sounds like you are afraid of your AC shares taking a hit.
 
Beatyair
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:54 am

So the options:
A330-200
A330-200 neo
A350-8
B767-300er (the line is still active)
B787-8

If they want to upsize
A330-300
A330-300 neo
A350-9
B767-400
B 787-9


I still think they will go with the baby 787.
 
jimbo737
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:24 am

Quoting robsaw (Reply 44):

I would agree.

For example, I would think bookings on YVR to PVG are very strong, but at c$745 for a round trip departing tomorrow, returning almost any day next week, overall yields are probably very weak.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:04 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 12):

That's the case no matter what they get....

....DL does/will operate the 763ER, A330, A330NEO, 787, A350 and 777 all within the next few years, and likely do some level of service on 'em all.

Indeed. DL's MX OpSpec goes beyond their own fleet, covering literally every type/power plant currently in service. Whatever WS gets, DL will be able to take care of (assuming WS is still willing to pay DL rates)

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 11):
And if servicing would be by DL, then they will have something in common.

That's really not a selling point. DL works on pretty much everything out there (as do all major carrier's engineering departments). Case in point... They didn't fumble HAL when the latter starting taking deliveries of Trent powered 332s, did they?

WS decision (if & when) will have nothing to do with their vendors.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
Westjet has no connection with either the A330 or 787, so either side can just as easily win the order.

Well said. This order will be won/lost in either merit or best deal offered. Pretty much any factor beyond that will only be sweated here.

Quoting Erebus (Reply 32):

But they do have a good relationship with Boeing. And from a pilot training perspective, wouldn't the 787 go better with the MAX?

The 787 bears almost no relation to the MAX. In fact its systems behaviors are closer to a 320 than a 737.

Quoting Acey (Reply 37):


The fact that 763 loads have been outstanding out of YEG and YYC to Hawaii, (as well as bookings across the system to LGW) is no doubt a factor in WS potentially seeking more lift. I can't speak to yields, nor the extent to which the various mx snags on these old birds have hurt the bottom line up to this point, but I suspect minor snags were expected and "budgeted" for, and ops have been exactly how WS could have hoped for thus far.

Absolutely. I think WS know what they're doing here. And it's good to see them growing up and outward.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:51 am

This is a great sign for the nascent long-haul business. If it weren't doing well, we'd hear nothing, and watch the 763s quietly get returned to lessors over the next few years.

The right product for WS is clearly the 787-9 (or maybe a mix of -8 and -9) -- IF price and availability are good enough. 2019/2020 is right around the time when 787 availability will start improving a bit, but the backlog does extend into those years. Airbus has considerable leverage with both price and availability on the A330neo and may be able to make WS an offer it can't refuse. There's no need for Airbus to offer an A350; it's too much airplane.
 
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Erebus
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RE: WestJet Seeks More Lift From Boeing, Airbus

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:03 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 47):
The 787 bears almost no relation to the MAX. In fact its systems behaviors are closer to a 320 than a 737.

Alright. But does it mean much when Boeing says that today's 737 pilots need only 11 days of training (and 767 pilots 8 days) for the 787 while those with no Boeing flight deck experience need 21 days to get on the 787?

Also, how many days would it take a 737 pilot to train for an A330? Can we expect it to be similar to the 11 days for the 787 above?

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