WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

toltommy · Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:42 pm

Somebody at SWAPA must've had an "Aha" moment. As the two sides go back to the table after the rejection of the first TA, the union is claiming that the 737-800MAX is a new aircraft type, and not included in the current contract. Remember that under the RLA, the current contract is in force until a new contract is ratified. The company of course, feels otherwise. Interesting tactic, could open a real can of worms for any carrier with CEO and NEO aircraft orders.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...ont-fly-without-a-new-contract.ece

ODwyerPW · Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:44 pm

Really disheartening. I had hoped that a more cooperative spirit would have emerged. Oh well.

Lexy · Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:09 am

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 1):

Really disheartening. I had hoped that a more cooperative spirit would have emerged. Oh well.

Really? The company has been adding more and more flying with little regard for the compensation of its workforce needed to complete all these new flights. I'm glad they did this, honestly.

toltommy · Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:25 am

Quoting Lexy (Reply 2):
The company has been adding more and more flying with little regard for the compensation of its workforce

Based on what? They have a pay rate for the -800 already.

SonomaFlyer · Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:45 am

Pilot contracts are specific on aircraft and payrates. The -800MAX is a different aircraft with a different design, different engines and will require at least some training (pilots are free to correct me on that point).

The pilots would be fools to not use this option given how long their contract negotiations been underway.

SWA will claim this is the same plane of course. This could get ugly but I have a hard time seeing a judge forcing pilots to attend training or to stepping in a cockpit on this one.

Grisee08 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:47 am

Not to sound mean, but I agree with them needing a new contract for that type. It has more advanced avionics, and the pilots don't have to work as hard to keep the aircraft in the air, so if they want to be that way, pay pilots on the -8Max less to fly that airplane. I know in reality that this would never ever work, but if one thinks about it, with any other job/career, people (should) get paid based on the amount of work they do. Ergo, a 707 pilot should make more than a 737NG pilot, and a 737NG pilot should make more than a 737Max pilot. Does anyone else see what I mean (but knows it would never happen this way)?

usflyguy · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:00 am

Quoting Lexy (Reply 2):

Really? The company has been adding more and more flying with little regard for the compensation of its workforce needed to complete all these new flights. I'm glad they did this, honestly.

A pilot can still only fly one flight at a time and they can still only work a certain number of hours in a span of a certain number of days and in a year. How does WN adding flights equate to a pilot needing to be paid more? When Southwest adds flights, they have to add pilots which equals seniority... which improves your quality of life, which is like a raise.

If folks on the ground want to get paid per flight, they should have negotiated that in their contract. I doubt the employees in the smaller stations would have voted for that though.

asteriskceo · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:27 am

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 6):
It has more advanced avionics, and the pilots don't have to work as hard to keep the aircraft in the air, so if they want to be that way, pay pilots on the -8Max less to fly that airplane

The MAX has the same avionics as the NG except for larger screens. They won't be working any less.

737tanker · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:31 am

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 1):

SWAPA has been cooperative in the past. They agreed to fly the -800 for the same rate as the -700, when other airline pilot groups get higher pay for flying aircraft with more seats. They allowed WN to codeshare with FL, when all codeshare is prohibited in the CBA, for no extra compensation. They approved the Seniority Intergration with FL for no compensation, unlike the NW and DL pilots which did get compensation. Finally they agreed to international flying for no extra pay, unlike most airlines who fly international whose pilots do get an international override. When the SWAPA negotiators brought this to the attention of the WN negotiators they said that was all in the past and didn't mean or count for anything in the future. Current WN management has stopped the cooperation with labor and has shown that it's not Herb's airline anymore.

PlanesNTrains · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:35 am

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 12):
When the SWAPA negotiators brought this to the attention of the WN negotiators they said that was all in the past and didn't mean or count for anything in the future.

Ouch. Well, this negotiation is going to leave a mark.

-Dave

MSPNWA · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:37 am

The significant part of this is that the current contract only has one type and pay scale. Doesn't matter if it's a classic or NG 737. It's a good bargaining chip for the union, but I don't know if I would want to go down that road.

lightsaber · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:38 am

What are the pilots asking for? My opinion will be deri

Will the pilots accept some of the concessions WN has asked for. For example redeye flights.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 3):
Based on what? They have a pay rate for the -800 already.

Does the -8 MAX require a new pilot rating? Otherwise, as long as MTOW is the same...

Lightsaber

ODwyerPW · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:40 am

Quoting Lexy (Reply 2):
Really?

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 12):
SWAPA has been cooperative in the past.

I believe you both have incorrectly jumped to the conclusion that I was accusing only the pilot's union of being uncooperative.
Not a good idea.

I'm disheartened that both parties (corp and pilots) could not come to an agreement.

toltommy · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Does the -8 MAX require a new pilot rating?

From what I've found, the Feds haven't decided if its a different aircraft. No decision of differences training vs full aircraft type rating.

Grisee08 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:05 am

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 11):
The MAX has the same avionics as the NG except for larger screens. They won't be working any less.

I stand corrected then. I thought they had 21st century avionics, etc. My apologies

Whiteguy · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 18):

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 11):
The MAX has the same avionics as the NG except for larger screens. They won't be working any less.

I stand corrected then. I thought they had 21st century avionics, etc. My apologies

And the same overhead panel as the B732.......

737tanker · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:57 am

Currently the WN contract with SWAPA doesn't have a pay rate for the 737, it has a pay rate for 4 different models of the 737. The 737 models are the -300, the -500, the -700, and the -800. The 737-900, the 737MAX7, the 737MAX8, the 737MAX9, and the 737MAX200 are all not listed so if WN wants to fly those they would have to add them to the CBA. Since WN and SWAPA have been negotiating a new CBA for the past 4 years WN has had the opportunity to add them. In fact the TA that was recently turned down had the 737MAX added to the pay rates.
As far as SWAPA agreeing to do redeyes that was agreed to when the contract was amended to include flying the -800s. So if WN isn't doing redeyes it isn't because the contract with SWAPA doesn't allow it.

INFINITI329 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:10 am

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 20):
Currently the WN contract with SWAPA doesn't have a pay rate for the 737, it has a pay rate for 4 different models of the 737. The 737 models are the -300, the -500, the -700, and the -800.

This is key right here.

Max Q · Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:22 am

Good luck to all the Southwest Pilots, hope they get what they well deserve.

Best wishes Barney.

trent900 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:32 am

Can anyone please explain why aircraft types are covered in these contracts and not aircraft categories? To me (and probably many others) any type of 737 is the same as any other etc. obviously an A320 would fall in this category as well so you would fly either on or the other on the same pay scale. Seem to me the people who drew up these contracts seem to have made them a bit to complicated!

D.

barney captain · Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:31 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):
Good luck to all the Southwest Pilots, hope they get what they well deserve.

Best wishes Barney.

Nice touch Max, thank you.

BravoOne · Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:29 am

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 15):
Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 11):
The MAX has the same avionics as the NG except for larger screens. They won't be working any less.

I stand corrected then. I thought they had 21st century avionics, etc. My apologies

Actually the MAX has some pretty advanced avionics and it has not been decided on just how much additional training will be required to qualify a pilot to fly it. Same type rating but additional training be it a FFS or FTD as yet undetermined.

AirbusA6 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:35 am

Quoting trent900 (Reply 19):
Can anyone please explain why aircraft types are covered in these contracts and not aircraft categories? To me (and probably many others) any type of 737 is the same as any other etc. obviously an A320 would fall in this category as well so you would fly either on or the other on the same pay scale. Seem to me the people who drew up these contracts seem to have made them a bit to complicated!

Especially as a 2016 A320ceo isn't the same plane as a 1990 A320ceo. Continuous changes have been made over the years despite the model still being called an A320-200

When Boeing deleted the eyebrows from the 737NG did the pilots have to renegotiate their contracts

bobnwa · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:27 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
Good luck to all the Southwest Pilots, hope they get what they well deserve.

Are they not all ready the highest paid pilots in the US and in the 99th percentile of all US wage earners? Isn't that enough?

MIflyer12 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:29 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 21):
Actually the MAX has some pretty advanced avionics and it has not been decided on just how much additional training will be required to qualify a pilot to fly it. Same type rating but additional training be it a FFS or FTD as yet undetermined.

If the FAA determines minimal retraining is required, a mediator could take away this 'new type = new contract' chip.

ec99 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:04 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 24):
If the FAA determines minimal retraining is required, a mediator could take away this 'new type = new contract' chip.

The issue is here is whether "new type" is a defined term in the contract and, if so, how "new type" is defined. Has anyone here seen the contract/have access to it? What is the definition of “new type”? I would ultimately be surprised if SWA wrote the contract to allow an updated 737 to trigger the new type clause. Of course, when the contract was signed no one thought SWA would be taking deliveries of new 737s in the 2020s.

Dallas · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:14 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 23):
Are they not all ready the highest paid pilots in the US and in the 99th percentile of all US wage earners? Isn't that enough?

Other work groups at WN are starting to lose patience with the pilots and their "greedy" demands. This is just the latest in a series of events (activates its strike preparedness committee, rejects a contract that both Leaderships agreed on and sent to a vote, pickets a couple of months later saying we need a new contract when they were the ones to reject one and new talks weren't scheduled for another month, etc.).

Glad to see most of the other work groups agreeing to new contracts and congrats to them. "Compromise" is a word more people should try to understand, especially with negotiations. When a work group threatens to jeopardize my future, along with 49,000 other employees, you lose my sympathy. Do we all want better salaries and improved work conditions? Of course, but I've learned to not expect or demand the moon, especially when I already have industry-leading pay and benefits with a company that has been stable and safe for decades.

ont 737 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:32 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 26):
This is just the latest in a series of events (activates its strike preparedness committee, rejects a contract that both Leaderships agreed on and sent to a vote, pickets a couple of months later saying we need a new contract when they were the ones to reject one and new talks weren't scheduled for another month, etc.).

Vote down the TA then picket before the negotiations are scheduled to resume. That didn't make sense to me either.

mcdu · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:40 pm

Generally it doesn't matter if the manufacturer designates a derivative a new type to require a new pay rate. The contracts with pilots often are aircraft derivative specific. Doesn't matter if it has new avionics, new wing, etc. If their isn't a pay rate to cover the specific version then the union may have a leg to stand on. Many contracts have transition provision to fly the airplane while rate is negotiated. I believe DL has this with the A321, but I could be wrong.

tb727 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:48 pm

Good for the SWAPA, go get what you deserve! I love how everyone who isn't in the seat or situation decides on how much you are worth. Planes are packed full, gas is cheap. We are in a time of record profits by nearly every airline after a decade of stagnation, time to make up for it. When it comes time for cuts, the pilot group is the first in line.

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 15):
And the same overhead panel as the B732.......

Same itty bitty cockpit too?

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 23):
Are they not all ready the highest paid pilots in the US and in the 99th percentile of all US wage earners? Isn't that enough?

Not when next major airline signs a contract. If you can get a little more, why wouldn't you want to?

n562wn · Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:50 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 26):
When a work group threatens to jeopardize my future, along with 49,000 other employees, you lose my sympathy. Do we all want better salaries and improved work conditions? Of course, but I've learned to not expect or demand the moon, especially when I already have industry-leading pay and benefits with a company that has been stable and safe for decades.

Industry leading pay and benefits? I hope you're talking about your work group because it's definitely not the pilot work group. The pilots are merely asking for industry STANDARD pay and benefits, which they are far from in many categories, a far cry from you suggesting that they're asking for the "moon". But please feel free to continue spreading misinformation. Jeopardize your future? Hardly...

Dallas · Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:04 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 29):
When it comes time for cuts, the pilot group is the first in line.

Yep, since that has happened so many times in the history of WN.

Quoting n562wn (Reply 30):
Industry leading pay and benefits? I hope you're talking about your work group because it's definitely not the pilot work group.

Weird, because the opposite is all I've ever seen reported and heard for years, up until these most recent contracts by competitors. And those competitors all went through massive pay cuts, layoffs, and bankruptcy, all while WN pilots kept their full salaries, benefits, and job security.

Quoting n562wn (Reply 30):
The pilots are merely asking for industry STANDARD pay and benefits

So the last TA, which was rejected, did not include this? Not from what I've seen and heard.

Quoting n562wn (Reply 30):
Jeopardize your future? Hardly...

Yep, when an AIRLINE has its pilots refuse to fly a plane, that would jeopardize my future, along with 49,000+ others. How else do you expect the 49,000 others to keep a job, and for the company to keep a revenue stream? Also, how many other pilots and airlines had this same cocky mentality before they were either laid off, took a pay cut, or their company went bankrupt or was bought out?

Quoting n562wn (Reply 30):
But please feel free to continue spreading misinformation.

Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong, but I doubt you will. Not one pilot would go into TA specifics publicly earlier when it was voted down, so maybe you could elaborate if you wanted to have a solid leg to stand on.

SonomaFlyer · Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:24 pm

So it sounds like all of the folks criticizing the pilots are people who will take whatever their employer is willing to offer in terms of a contract; that using leverage is verboten and the pilot group has no real right to advocate for itself.

With each contract agreed to lately (see the UA extension as an example), SWA pilots fall further behind.

It's not an issue whether the pilots are in the top 1% of wage earners (they aren't) or that they make more than ramp workers (they should), its how they fare compared to their peers in the industry.

Junction · Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:41 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 29):
If you can get a little more, why wouldn't you want to?

The best union motto ever.

n562wn · Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:49 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 31):
Weird, because the opposite is all I've ever seen reported and heard for years, up until these most recent contracts by competitors. And those competitors all went through massive pay cuts, layoffs, and bankruptcy, all while WN pilots kept their full salaries, benefits, and job security.

Interesting how you prove my point. "Industry leading" pay in comparison to a sea of bankrupt competitor wages. Notice I did not include the word benefits.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 31):
So the last TA, which was rejected, did not include this? Not from what I've seen and heard.

The short answer to this is NO. Well short in retirement, work rules and compensation. It may have been sold that way, but that doesn't make it true.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 31):
Yep, when an AIRLINE has its pilots refuse to fly a plane, that would jeopardize my future, along with 49,000 others. How else do you expect the 49,000 others to keep a job, and for the company to keep a revenue stream? Also, how many other pilots and airlines had this same cocky mentality before they were either laid off, took a pay cut, or their company went bankrupt or was bought out?

The pilots are more than happy to continue flying any plane that's within the bounds of their current (YEARS past amenable date) contract. The MAX, the way I understand that SWAPA sees it, is not and would disrupt the status quo in a time of mediated negotiations. There are still plenty of planes to be flown in the fleet.

SWA pilots are simply asking for compensation and benefits in line with their peers. It's really that simple. Once that is negotiated, this whole topic will be a non issue. I fail to see how that is being "cocky" in the least.

I'm still waiting for the day when I see a pilot on here passing judgement on any other work group's stalled negotiations. I doubt it will happen.

[Edited 2016-03-02 07:59:37]

Dallas · Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:07 pm

Quoting n562wn (Reply 30):
Industry leading pay and benefits? I hope you're talking about your work group because it's definitely not the pilot work group.

WN from 2005-2013:

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...T%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 32):
So it sounds like all of the folks criticizing the pilots are people who will take whatever their employer is willing to offer in terms of a contract; that using leverage is verboten and the pilot group has no real right to advocate for itself.

I am 100% in favor of open and fair negotiations and have no problem with that. I also wouldn't assume that I personally like to be taken advantage of and take only what I am given/ offered. However, I do not make threats that would affect other work groups or the company as a whole (for both the short and long-term). If I felt that I was getting screwed or didn't like the company, I would go elsewhere for more money and benefits, as nobody is forcing me to stay and I have the education and experience to make a transition. I am not a pilot, and that is clearly understood here. As an outsider, it was very strange to see the pilots picket before talks resume, especially seeing what was written on them. To claim that "It's time for a contract" and "What are we worth to you?", along with the statements released, one would think it was solely the fault of greedy WN. However, both the pilot's executive committee and WN were able to agree on a TA, and the vote was simply rejected, but a TA was made and offered through negotiations by both sides. Presenting other opinions or hiding those facts to the media, outsiders, and customers is infuriating and disrespectful to other work groups. When I drove to the airport that day and saw the pilots lined up, I was embarrassed, because there was a TA in place, it was offered and rejected, and talks are scheduled to resume. I did not know what the picketing was intended to accomplish, except for openly venting and complaining.

Also, are you claiming that other work groups that do have new contracts were all taken advantage of and not intelligent enough to reject the TAs and hold out for more?

Everyone wants all groups to get a contract that properly rewards the employees for their hard work and successes, but it has to be fair and reasonable. That is the main point I am trying to make.

zeke · Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:12 pm

I am normally all for pilots being paid a fair wage. But this would be like asking for more pay to fly a V2500 powered A320 to one with CFM56.

The real issue seems to be the productivity push which is already there with existing equipment.

fallguy · Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:35 pm

Looks like WN pilots are on top of the world to me...geez

C767P · Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 36):

I am normally all for pilots being paid a fair wage. But this would be like asking for more pay to fly a V2500 powered A320 to one with CFM56.

Not really when the FAA has said WN pilots can not fly all three (300 700/800 and MAX).

surfdog75 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:44 pm

SWAPA has been far more than patient in my opinion with an intransigent management. How long has the contract been amenable?

NWAROOSTER · Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 26):

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 23):
Are they not all ready the highest paid pilots in the US and in the 99th percentile of all US wage earners? Isn't that enough?

Other work groups at WN are starting to lose patience with the pilots and their "greedy" demands. This is just the latest in a series of events (activates its strike preparedness committee, rejects a contract that both Leaderships agreed on and sent to a vote, pickets a couple of months later saying we need a new contract when they were the ones to reject one and new talks weren't scheduled for another month, etc.).

Dallas, where do you get your information? Both you and bobnaw do not give any information as to if you are directly involved in the airline or aviation business. SWAPA is quoted as saying in the Dallas Times the following:

“It’s a freight train coming down the track,” Casey Murray, the head of the union’s negotiating committee, said in an interview. “We can see the light and they can, too.”

There may be a light at both ends of the tunnel. It most likely is two freight trains heading at each other and there is going to be one hell of a collision and everyone is going to be a loser. Most of the strikes at Northwest Airlines involved the pilots and the company did a number on them once.

zeke · Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:51 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 38):
Not really when the FAA has said WN pilots can not fly all three (300 700/800 and MAX).

Didn't they fly 737-200s alongside 7373NGs ? Thats like a Nokia 6110 to a Iphone 3. 738 to 738max is a Iphone3 to Iphone6.

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 39):

SWAPA has been far more than patient in my opinion with an intransigent management.

That seems to be MBA 101 these days, pilots are just glorified mill workers in their eyes that will not be negotiated with. They will be given the crumbs they see fit, while pulling massive bonuses for management.

n562wn · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:08 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 35):
WN from 2005-2013:

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...T%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm

What year is it again? Nice try with the dated information. The landscape is far different in 2016

tozairport · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:18 pm

Quoting fallguy (Reply 37):

Looks like WN pilots are on top of the world to me...geez

Their pay is $30 below UAL, below AMR, and soon to be below DAL. Management has been stonewalling them for years. As someone else said, this is not Herb's airline anymore. Its time for WN to get off the pot.

C767P · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:19 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
Didn't they fly 737-200s alongside 7373NGs ? Thats like a Nokia 6110 to a Iphone 3. 738 to 738max is a Iphone3 to Iphone6.

They did. I am not a 737 pilot, so I don't know the differences in a 200 and 300. All I know is WN pilots have said the FAA will not allow them to fly the -300 and MAX.

Compare it to whatever you want. This is what the FAA is saying.

airliner371 · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:24 pm

I just sure hope that codesharing is allowed in the next contract. It's such a dumb clause that isn't helping the airline (or pilots for that mater) one bit. Getting some connections to Europe, Asia, Africa, etc... would be very beneficial for WN and the pilots.

C767P · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:29 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 46):
I just sure hope that codesharing is allowed in the next contract. It's such a dumb clause that isn't helping the airline (or pilots for that mater) one bit. Getting some connections to Europe, Asia, Africa, etc... would be very beneficial for WN and the pilots.

How would another airline flying to Europe help Southwest pilots? Shouldn't Southwest do it themselves so Southwest pilots can fly there?

winginit · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:33 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 48):
How would another airline flying to Europe help Southwest pilots? Shouldn't Southwest do it themselves so Southwest pilots can fly there?

The ability to connect such a robust domestic network to high yielding international traffic would be tremendously healthy for WN and their pilots, especially considering, given their fleet and technological capabilities, they're unable to do so themselves and won't be equipped to do so for some time barring the establishment of some sort of northern launching point a la WS.

FlyHossD · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:36 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 44):
They did. I am not a 737 pilot, so I don't know the differences in a 200 and 300. All I know is WN pilots have said the FAA will not allow them to fly the -300 and MAX.

Compare it to whatever you want. This is what the FAA is saying.

That may well be the case, but this discussion is about contract issues, not what the FAA thinks. In other words, your statement isn't relevant to the real matter at hand.

PlanesNTrains · Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:38 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 29):
Good for the SWAPA, go get what you deserve! I love how everyone who isn't in the seat or situation decides on how much you are worth. Planes are packed full, gas is cheap. We are in a time of record profits by nearly every airline after a decade of stagnation, time to make up for it. When it comes time for cuts, the pilot group is the first in line.

I'm honestly not familiar with the WN pilots group or their compensation, but have they had to take cuts in the past?

Quoting tb727 (Reply 29):
If you can get a little more, why wouldn't you want to?

Reminds me of the UA union guy that wanted to get every last golden egg from the goose back in the '90's. That didn't turn out so well.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 32):
its how they fare compared to their peers in the industry.

It'd be interesting (again, i don't know the answer) to show a 20 year graph with the majors including WN on there reflecting their pilot compensation. It might be that WN pilots are not paid as much TODAY as their peers, but that over the past 20 years they've come out on top in an overall way (relative to their narrowbody peers). It might not be. I suppose given that some "benefits" aren't given a dollar value that some things are subjective though.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 35):
However, I do not make threats that would affect other work groups or the company as a whole (for both the short and long-term). If I felt that I was getting screwed or didn't like the company, I would go elsewhere for more money and benefits, as nobody is forcing me to stay and I have the education and experience to make a transition. I am not a pilot, and that is clearly understood here.

Unfortunately that's not how a unionized industry works. While you personally may be able to step into a new job with good compensation and room for near-term growth, pilots have to start over at the bottom everytime they switch employers. The more tenured your are, the more benefit comes from just sticking it out rather than having to once again start over at a new carrier as the bottom guy/girl. Those of us in the non-unionized workforce really have a different setup and are often able to negotiate some of the compensation and benefits separately.

Aside from that, as an employee you probably won't be happy knowing that it's an "if you don't like it, get the hell out" sort of environment, just as I'm assuming WN doesn't want their employees treating their customers that way either.

As far as "threats", again, that's just the way union negotiations seem to work. Both sides play the game and follow the rules - hard to really blame anyone in that scenario.

-Dave

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net