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tb727
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:30 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
I will guarantee you that any WN pilots will be at the behest of the company for far more than 2100 hours any year, working holidays, working weekends, working nights.

I'd say it's pretty close to an average of 3000 hours a year time away from base for a pilot in the US.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
winginit
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 98):
15 days per month is what an office worker will do over a year on average by the time you take public holidays, leave, and weekends into account.

That is absolutely absurd.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
I will guarantee you that any WN pilots will be at the behest of the company

That's not the same thing as being on the job.
 
jonathan-l
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 98):
15 days per month is what an office worker will do over a year on average by the time you take public holidays

No way. That means 180 working days. Add the week-ends, that's 284 days of the year.
There is no way for many people that 81 days off is the norm, including public holidays.
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:34 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 89):
Didn't say take the egg but to get a slight edge on your peers, go for it while you can

Then how is that "industry standard" then? That would be better (slightly at least) than the industry standard.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 89):
5 year Captain payscale 737/(A320 B6/NK)...

Curious and just wanting to confirm that is the converted hourly rate for WN, right? Not per trip.

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 93):
And that response wasn't predictable either.....tell me, what's the engine shut down procedure for a bus?

Can you shift the gears of a bus? Can you drive a bus, right now?
Why get into some kind of silly comparison thing? Honestly I doubt any pilot could or would drive a bus with the pay and schedule they are under.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
I will guarantee you that any WN pilots will be at the behest of the company for far more than 2100 hours any year, working holidays, working weekends, working nights.

You do realize that most professional people work more than their 2080 hrs per year don't you? I average about an extra hour to hour and a half each day. And most of the the professionals I know do similar. Not trying to knock you, but realize that most people work very hard and a lot of hours to earn good money, just like you.

And I am at the "behest" of my company, if they do need me I will be there and put in the extra time.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 105):
Quoting usflyguy (Reply 83):
So... what was in the TA that was voted down? In NEGOTIATIONS, you give some and you get some... all of the pilots that I've talked to say I want, I want, I want and when asked what they are willing to give up, it's silence or "nothing, we deserve it."

That sums it up.

Pilots want certain things in the contract.
The company will ask for flexibility (e.g, redeyes) and other bits.
During the next contract the 'Cadillac tax' will hit on health insurance, so that will be adjusted.

So what things are pilots willing to compromise on? To give up for those additional bits? I can see a COLA being not something to have "give up" really negotiate on, but for anything above that, a net increase in pay above the cost of living for example, is something that would occur with. In the case of the free market, the "negotiation method" used is to perform better than peers etc. and demonstrate value, and then you may get a raise (at least that is how I and many others approach it. And in my case I can leave and go to another company that is willing to pay me more if needed). I am not knocking unions or their situation just pointing out the obvious. A lot of people work very hard to earn wage increases and better jobs (conditions).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Flighty
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:41 pm

Airlines have a life cycle, just like people. WN has been successful for a long time and has grown comfortable - on all sides. That's one of the stages of the life cycle before animosity sets in, an external crisis hits and nobody is equipped to deal with it, sharper little beaks pecking all the while. These things don't last forever
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:41 pm

Sometimes I get the vibe that Anet has its healthy dose of people who hate:

Pilots
Flight Attendants
Ramp Guys
Mechanics
Gate agents
Caterers
Airline CEO´s (ohh boy!)

Heck even manufacturing Companies! I believe in the free market and if WN can make the $$$ to have better salaries, they should do it, personnel its the most valuable asset in any company, they should know that because I believe its in their core, to operate as a one large family... I hope I am not wrong, and if pilots work one week a year and get tons of money, its ok with me. If they get the $$$ to do a bad job, then I am not ok with that but WN has been profitable because of the professionalism , and I hope it keeps that way and both parties get to a good compromise.

TRB
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asteriskceo
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:43 pm

I've never understood why WN has took a hardline approach to its workforce in recent years. The Southwest product is its people, and if you piss them off enough, their product will cease to exist.
 
toltommy
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 113):

I've never understood why WN has took a hardline approach to its workforce in recent years. The Southwest product is its people, and if you piss them off enough, their product will cease to exist.

Because if your costs are too high, the product will cease to exist as well. WN competes with the legacies, who have all restructured via CH11, and the ULCC's, who have a revenue stream that WN elects not to tap. IMO WN is headed into the perfect storm. The work groups have always gotten more and unless there's more revenue, the pie can only get so big. There seems to be an expectation of "more" but there needs to be some productivity increase as well. Saying that a 737-800 and a 737-800Max are different aircraft with different (i.e more expensive) payrates is not more productive.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
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par13del
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:32 pm

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 113):
I've never understood why WN has took a hardline approach to its workforce in recent years.
Quoting toltommy (Reply 114):
Because if your costs are too high, the product will cease to exist as well. WN competes with the legacies, who have all restructured via CH11,

  

Quoting toltommy (Reply 114):
but there needs to be some productivity increase as well.

In some circles the reason given for WN's continued profitability is it higher productivity compared to the majors, how much higher can they go?
WN needs to reduce it cost structure or offset it by higher profits, based on history, we know that give backs did not work at the legacies, the all ended up in Chpt.11.

If WN has to increase stage lengths the gains from higher productivity start to diminish, example there are only so many transcons that can be done in a day.
 
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barney captain
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:34 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 114):
Because if your costs are too high, the product will cease to exist as well.

Agreed.

However, there is apparently plenty of money to reward the investors. Five BILLION dollars to be precise.

Priorities.

(bolding mine)

"Southwest Airlines (NASDAQ:LUV) has decided to pay back up to $5 billion to its shareholders through its share buyback option. It would come into effect by the end of fiscal year 2017. Another announcement was made by the airlines that said it would make a repurchase of $1.5 billion in stock and increase the quarterly dividend to 7.5 cents a share."

http://thenextdigit.com/21496/southw...-buyback-shares-hikes-dividend-25/
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:46 pm

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 112):
Sometimes I get the vibe that Anet has its healthy dose of people who hate:

Pilots
Flight Attendants
Ramp Guys
Mechanics
Gate agents
Caterers
Airline CEO´s (ohh boy!)
Quoting barney captain (Reply 116):
Agreed.

However, there is apparently plenty of money to reward the investors. Five BILLION dollars to be precise.

Priorities.

Aren't pilots one of the larger groups shareholders? If not why not negotiate to get shares so they can participate in such actions?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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zeke
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:49 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 106):
I'd say it's pretty close to an average of 3000 hours a year time away from base for a pilot in the US.

That does not surprise me at all.

Quoting winginit (Reply 108):
That's not the same thing as being on the job.

When my employer curtails what I do, where I am, I am very much on the job.

Quoting jonathan-l (Reply 109):
No way. That means 180 working days. Add the week-ends, that's 284 days of the year.
There is no way for many people that 81 days off is the norm, including public holidays.

Not unreasonable for shift workers.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 110):
Not trying to knock you, but realize that most people work very hard and a lot of hours to earn good money, just like you.

And I am at the "behest" of my company, if they do need me I will be there and put in the extra time.

Sure sounds like you are, I get paid for 84 hours a month of flying, but I am often only home for 1/3 of a month. I dont get paid for any time I spend at dispatch, for doing a walk around, for passengers boarding/deplaning, ATC delays before push back, or for ground instruction. If I pushback and have an engine failure on the takeoff roll, come back to the gate, I dont get paid a cent, I did not fly.

I can turn up to work and they change equipment, send me home. Dont get paid a cent. I spend often 6 days a month on standby, I dont get paid a cent unless i fly.

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 112):

Sometimes I get the vibe that Anet has its healthy dose of people who hate:

Pilots
Flight Attendants
Ramp Guys
Mechanics
Gate agents
Caterers
Airline CEO´s (ohh boy!)

Heck even manufacturing Companies!

Yes, green envy.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
airliner371
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:04 pm

I think we'll see at least one of the big contracts get approved this year. As much as everyone likes to hate on Gary because his name isn't Herb, I'm sure he's aware of what's going on labor wise and knows he needs to show some progress on contracts this year.
 
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barney captain
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:10 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 117):
Aren't pilots one of the larger groups shareholders?

Not even close. We don't even make the list - institutional and corporate investors make up nearly all of the outstanding shares.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 117):
If not why not negotiate to get shares so they can participate in such actions?

We did - in the 1994 contract. Some made out, many did not. Tying your paycheck to stock market volatility is a very bad idea.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
sbworcs
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:22 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 107):

It looks to me that some, not all, pilots blame management when things go wrongand claim credit when its goid. Surely it's ALL staff st all times?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
737tanker
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:27 pm

lightsaber

You probably don't know it but when the WN agreed to amend their current contract and fly the -800s we also agreed to fly redeyes. Just because WN isn't doing redeyes doesn't mean it's the fault of the pilots, that is a decision made by management.
 
SPREE34
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:28 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 107):
yet the fact remains that they all are among the top wage earners in the US.

So,.......what's your point?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
bobnwa
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 123):
So,.......what's your point?

My point is they already make a great deal of money compared to all wage earners in the US, so they are hardly being being treated unfairly like they claim.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:21 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 124):

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 123):
So,.......what's your point?

My point is they already make a great deal of money compared to all wage earners in the US, so they are hardly being being treated unfairly like they claim.


It is irrelevant to compare pilots to any other job because it is an apples to oranges comparison. Within the context of Part 121 pilot groups, yes, Southwest pilots deserve better than their management has given in recent years for the reasons already listed by active Southwest pilots within his thread. Wages for pilots as compared to non-pilots do not matter in this case or in the case of Secrion 6 negotiations because the only groups that have any relevance are other Part 121 narrow body pilot groups.

It is important to note here that pay rates are a fraction of the whole story when it comes to pilot compensation. The language and soft time parts of a pilot contract can make high hourly rates not nearly as glamorous as they seem. Calling pilots greedy because they turn down higher hourly rates is passing judgement when you do not have all of the facts.

[Edited 2016-03-03 14:23:38]
Life is better when you surf.
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:44 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 118):
Sure sounds like you are, I get paid for 84 hours a month of flying, but I am often only home for 1/3 of a month. I dont get paid for any time I spend at dispatch, for doing a walk around, for passengers boarding/deplaning, ATC delays before push back, or for ground instruction. If I pushback and have an engine failure on the takeoff roll, come back to the gate, I dont get paid a cent, I did not fly.

I can turn up to work and they change equipment, send me home. Dont get paid a cent. I spend often 6 days a month on standby, I dont get paid a cent unless i fly.

Yes, I understand. And the same (similar) can happen to me. I earn a salary, it doesn't change when I put in that 60hr work week. I commute to work work daily (and a weekend if work load calls for it) and it is about 40 min each way, that's 6hrs 40min travel time each week, pilots do similar but normally about once a week all at once.

Sometime the project I am pouring my time into doesn't fly (pardon the pun   ) and so the reward of improved job performance may not follow and the time used for it is in some ways wasted. It happens.

Also I get two days a week off: the weekend. But during the week work consumes about half my day when you get right down to it. So that means about 3hrs a day I get to be at home with the family. It's my job, that I choose to do, I am not trying to compare my job to yours but just offering another view to what you are expressing. And I enjoy my job, just as you enjoy yours.

The contest that occurs about how much a person works or doesn't, and how much a pilot works versus when he gets paid is silly. Mainline airline pilots have VERY good pay and lifestyles and strong job guarantees. Not everyone can make it to that point but I honestly do not know any mainline pilots that have it "bad". None. They work to earn their money, some work harder than others. Just like anyone else. One difference is that almost all of them LOVE what they do. Can't say the same for a lot of people and their jobs.

By the way, my understanding was that many pilots get paid once the door closes. This is not the case at your airline? Additionally, I know the hourly rate for pilots is as high as it is specifically to account for all the "dead time" that can occur. If that is not advantageous, then why not negotiate a rate that begins the moment you arrive on property (and "punch in" so to speak), that would address what appears to be a significant concern for you. Of course it would be a significantly lower "rate" than what is currently published based on flight hours but why not? The question really is: How much do you want to earn each year? I do think an annual wage of $125,000 to $250,000+ is an appropriate wage for someone with lives in their hands and millions of dollars of equipment etc. under their control. The ones I really think are screwed are the RJ pilots out there. (this is an "in general" comment, obviously some specifics will be different for different situations.

But that is just me, just my opinion. I am not saying it is how things should be.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 120):
We did - in the 1994 contract. Some made out, many did not. Tying your paycheck to stock market volatility is a very bad idea.

Then why bemoan the share buyback? It is a key tool for share performance which as you note can be volatile. As with pilots and other groups, when times are good each group, including shareholders, expect to be rewarded if possible. Companies issues shares when they need money, this is one way that essentially pays that back.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 125):
It is irrelevant to compare pilots to any other job because it is an apples to oranges comparison. Within the context of Part 121 pilot groups, yes, Southwest pilots deserve better than their management has given in recent years for the reasons already listed by active Southwest pilots within his thread. Wages for pilots as compared to non-pilots do not matter in this case or in the case of Secrion 6 negotiations because the only groups that have any relevance are other Part 121 narrow body pilot groups.

So you are saying that Southwest pilots deserve better than "industry standard" pay? (Referencing the perfectly mid-pack pay noted in the hourly rates posted above).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
b747400erf
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:54 pm

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 112):
Airline CEO´s (ohh boy!)

Right. Won't anyone think of the poor multi-millionaires?
 
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barney captain
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:29 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 126):
Then why bemoan the share buyback?

Five. Billion. Dollars.

At the same time telling union negotiators things are tight.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 128):
Five. Billion. Dollars.

Where do you see this? I am only seeing a Five Hundred Million Dollar buyback:

Quote:
Jan 21 Southwest Airlines Co on Thursday reported a fourth-quarter profit in line with analysts' expectations and said it expected flat unit revenue in early 2016 as strong U.S. travel demand halted a monthslong decline in the measure.
http://www.reuters.com/article/southwest-results-idUSL2N1550NL

And the article you sourced only showed $1.5 billion in total authorized, though the time frame isn't given.

Tugg

[Edited 2016-03-03 15:46:55]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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barney captain
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:48 pm

"Southwest Airlines (NASDAQ:LUV) has decided to pay back up to $5 billion to its shareholders through its share buyback option. It would come into effect by the end of fiscal year 2017. Another announcement was made by the airlines that said it would make a repurchase of $1.5 billion in stock and increase the quarterly dividend to 7.5 cents a share."

It's the total for 5 years.

http://thenextdigit.com/21496/southw...-buyback-shares-hikes-dividend-25/
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:53 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 130):
up to $5 billion
Quoting barney captain (Reply 130):
It would come into effect by the end of fiscal year 2017.

But that is is an "up to" number. It is not fixed. Also the airline can also issue $5B in new stock if it needed to raise cash in the future. It cannot do that with cash expensed in salaries. So the net effect could be neutral to the company versus a straight expense.

Essentially it does not affect the ability to pay the pilots.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
strfyr51
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:54 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 84):
I have often thought it would be smart for pilots (and other work groups) to establish a nationwide seniority scale, similar to what some trades have in place. That way pilots would never be trapped at a failing airline or with management that was crappy. They could leave and move to a better run airline, the union strength would only increase. However I suspect most airline pilots groups would be terrified of essentially "competition" coming into their walled garden and so have created their own gilded cage

************************************************************************************************************************************
In my 38 years in the airline industry I've probably heard that idea 50 times, And? 50 times I've dismissed it as Stupid!!
when you cast your lot with WN there were 1000 other pilots casting their lot with other airlines. Some prospered and some found misfortune it was the luck of Fate as nobody could forsee the future.
I made it a POINT to work for United because I wanted to remain in Northern California. We had guys at United who hired in and Quit after Probation to work at US Air when I hired in in 1984.
They met with disaster as USAir fell on shaky ground and closed their Hangar at SFO..
They had to relocate back east somewhere. I'm from Philadelphia and had an offer from USAir for Philadelphia.
I didn't take it because I lived in California liked California and wanted to live there..(especially the Bay Area).
So??? If I made the choice to work for United for better or Worse?
Then I deserve to KEEP what I worked for which is Seniority.
Every year wasn't easy and I stuck out some good and BAD times. CH-11 etc.
Why then? (now that we're doing Better) would I condone someone coming in who just because they had seniority at another carrier and would bring their seniority with them under your premise??
Especially if and When bad times may come around AGAIN? And??
They might displace guys who have stuck it out with their carrier?? Sure doesn't seem right to me.
Though I guess depending on your point of view?? It might be a good Idea. Everybody KNOWS this industry is a crap shoot!
You get HIRED to take your chances. Otherwise? We'd have a single hiring standard and everybody would be guaranteed a JOB!! 'Cept? It ain't so!!
 
grbauc
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:51 am

Quoting Dallas (Reply 26):

corporate America has shown that employees are not going to be well taken care of unless the employees continually push the backs of companies into a corner to get them to look out for the employees best interest. I am 100% non-pro union but do believe that unions in the past definitely had a place in helping the American workers. I believe the unions became too powerful and greedy and that the corporations and unions both together were out of sorts. but I believe we come full circle and that unions are starting to be needed again American corporations are not doing the right thing on the half of the American workers.
Maybe that southwest pilots don't need a raise but they sure we need to be asking continually because companies are not just going to offer more unless they're being pushed to do such.
 
SPREE34
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:46 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 125):
It is irrelevant to compare pilots to any other job because it is an apples to oranges comparison.

   And to the rest of your reply as well.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 124):

My point is they already make a great deal of money compared to all wage earners in the US, so they are hardly being being treated unfairly like they claim.

I see. So the particular training/education they worked for, skills built, and the market bearing compensation they can attain by such, should be limited by some method YOU think/feel is fair, locks them to other people in onther unrelated fields of expertise. Do I have that close?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:12 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 126):
Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 125):
It is irrelevant to compare pilots to any other job because it is an apples to oranges comparison. Within the context of Part 121 pilot groups, yes, Southwest pilots deserve better than their management has given in recent years for the reasons already listed by active Southwest pilots within his thread. Wages for pilots as compared to non-pilots do not matter in this case or in the case of Secrion 6 negotiations because the only groups that have any relevance are other Part 121 narrow body pilot groups.

So you are saying that Southwest pilots deserve better than "industry standard" pay? (Referencing the perfectly mid-pack pay noted in the hourly rates posted above).

Tugg
HI Tugg,

In this case, yes I am. My reasons are both because I genuinely support one of the more friendly and accommodating pilot groups in my profession (Southwest) and selfish, because if they raise the bar it adds to the potential to improve the contract where I work which In turn allows a better quality of life and ability to provide for my family.

They deserve better than industry standard first and foremost because they gave to the company in return for nothing in the years past (again, as evidenced by the facts stated earlier in this thread) and have gone years without signing a new contract or seeing gains for the pilot group. Southwest is still a profitable and successful company in no small part because he pilot group in years past understood that giving what amounted to concessions at the time might lead to a more stable company overall. Naturally and quite reasonably, the pilot group expected to see benefits from these concessions that benefitted themselves at some point. As I said in the post you quoted, hourly pay rates do not tell the whole story and often higher hourly rates are Trojan horses for concessions in work rules and soft time compensation language. Case in point being the TA that the Delta Air Lines pilot group rejected in recent months.

Second, as an airline pilot it behooves not only myself but the rest of my brothers and sisters in flight decks across this country to aim to rise the bar in terms of pay and work rules. Pattern bargaining, which, for better or worse, is one of the biggest influences on pilot contract negotiations relies heavily upon other groups seeing overall gains with each new CBA signed. Therefore, if SWAPA negotiates a more prosperous contract for their group, my own group will have more leverage as we enter negotiations of our own given that we are both profitable, narrow-body and pilot groups.

[Edited 2016-03-03 20:39:52]
Life is better when you surf.
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:27 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 98):
15 days per month is what an office worker will do over a year on average by the time you take public holidays, leave, and weekends into account. Shift workers, which is what pilots are, normally get more time off than office staff to take into account sleep disruptions.
Quoting barney captain (Reply 95):
How's this for humble pie? Big enough slice for you?

and that's why the holy savior left when he did, he knew that the last round of contracts that he negotiated were unsustainable. It's easy to hate Gery Kelly, but how much is your profit sharing going to be for 2015? $35,000? That's more than many of the ramp agents and the new flight attendants made in the year.

Quoting zeke (Reply 118):
I dont get paid for any time I spend at dispatch, for doing a walk around, for passengers boarding/deplaning, ATC delays before push back, or for ground instruction. If I pushback and have an engine failure on the takeoff roll, come back to the gate, I dont get paid a cent, I did not fly.

But you don't work for WN and this is about WN pilots and their contract negotiations. WN pilots get paid for all time while that brake is released.

Quoting zeke (Reply 118):
Yes, green envy.

Probably more of the douche factor that people don't like.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 125):
It is important to note here that pay rates are a fraction of the whole story when it comes to pilot compensation. The language and soft time parts of a pilot contract can make high hourly rates not nearly as glamorous as they seem. Calling pilots greedy because they turn down higher hourly rates is passing judgement when you do not have all of the facts.

Maybe you know what was in the contract that was turned down, can you please tell us? I know several people have asked and not one of the half dozen or so WN pilots on here have been willing to share for some odd reason. You would think that if it was so bad, they'd love to tell everyone why it was so bad.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 134):
I see. So the particular training/education they worked for, skills built, and the market bearing compensation they can attain by such, should be limited by some method YOU think/feel is fair, locks them to other people in onther unrelated fields of expertise.

So, no bitching about how expensive it is to go to the doctor. Doctors, nurses, and other allied health employees are highly trained and are responsible for peoples lives every single day... and schooling for those positions isn't cheap either.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 130):

I got your msg, but I couldn't reply to it for some reason
 
futureualpilot
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 136):

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 125):
It is important to note here that pay rates are a fraction of the whole story when it comes to pilot compensation. The language and soft time parts of a pilot contract can make high hourly rates not nearly as glamorous as they seem. Calling pilots greedy because they turn down higher hourly rates is passing judgement when you do not have all of the facts.

Maybe you know what was in the contract that was turned down, can you please tell us? I know several people have asked and not one of the half dozen or so WN pilots on here have been willing to share for some odd reason. You would think that if it was so bad, they'd love to tell everyone why it was so bad.


I don't fly for Southwest, so it really isn't my place to begin the "airing of grievances" if you will. I'll wait for some of the current Southwest contingent to address the specifics and try and pipe in if I think adding my two cents might help clarify or explain something. Please don't think I'm trying to shun you or anyone else that is interested, I just don't think it would be respectful of me to pontificate upon this subject for a pilot group in which I don't have a seniority number.
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zeke
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:52 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 136):
But you don't work for WN and this is about WN pilots and their contract negotiations. WN pilots get paid for all time while that brake is released.

That is true, however I was replying to someone who is not a pilot having a go at pilot terms and conditions in general.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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barney captain
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:59 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 136):
and that's why the holy savior left when he did, he knew that the last round of contracts that he negotiated were unsustainable.

Incorrect. We didn't get a contract until 5 months after Herb left.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Dallas
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:07 pm

It is interesting that the longer this process takes, WN is saving money with the old rates and previous contract in place. By the time a new contract is ratified, more pilots will have retired or left the company, all of whom will not see any bonus, retro payment, or pay increase.

Edit: Please correct me if this is not correct or if it doesn't work this way.

[Edited 2016-03-04 12:08:59]
 
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barney captain
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:52 pm

You are correct. Any contract employee (ramp,FA, pilot etc) who retires, quits or passes away prior to ratification is not issued back pay for the work they've already performed. (In the case of a death, it's the family who is shorted).
Southeast Of Disorder
 
wwtraveler99
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:42 pm

Delta - Capt

Year 737-9 737-7 737-8
12 218 217 217
11 216 215 215
10 215 214 214
9 213 212 212
8 211 210 210
7 210 209 209
6 208 207 207
5 206 206 206
4 205 204 204
3 203 202 202
2 202 201 201
1 200 199 199


United - Capt

Year 737-8 737-9 737-7
12 246 246 236
11 244 244 234
10 242 242 232
9 240 240 230
8 238 238 229
7 237 237 227
6 235 235 225
5 233 233 223
4 231 231 221
3 229 229 220
2 227 227 218
1 226 226 216


American - Capt

Year B737
12 235
11 233
10 231
9 229
8 227
7 225
6 224
5 222
4 220
3 218
2 216
1 215

Southwest - Capt

Year 737
12 216
11 214
10 212
9 209
8 207
7 205
6 202
5 200
4 198
3 195
2 193
1 191

This information is from airlinepilotpay.com I can not ensure 100% accuracy but I sure its very close.

According to this information Southwest compares as follows for a 12 year Capt.

Carrier rate +/- compared to WN

Delta - +1 (737-8)
United - +23 (737-7) +33 (737-9)
American - +29


Since DL is currently in negotiations I am sure they will be at least where UA is at currently.


WW
 
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sunking737
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:02 pm

Correct me but doesn't profit sharing count as income as its a bonus to hard work of all parties.??
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:08 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 137):
I got your msg, but I couldn't reply to it for some reason

It's because there is a space in his user name. There is a thread on the problem under Site Related. No fix is coming.

Sorry to be off topic, just figured it might be helpful for anyone else trying to do so as well.

Quoting zeke (Reply 139):
someone who is not a pilot having a go at pilot terms and conditions in general.

Just so you have a frame of reference, I come to the topic from discussions with my best friend who is directly affected by these contract negotiations. I want the best for him and do not make any comments in disrespect or to bemoan "how much pilots make for doing so little" or any crap like that. I have had many in depth conversations with him on the topic. He was not all that unhappy with the first TA, he finds that making $200,000+ per year is fair remuneration for what he does and he is OK with the works rules. And does love what he does and also likes the company he works for.

You and many others may not agree with him nor do I think that what I say means anyone else should be happy with making that much or the rules imposed, everyone makes their own decision on what is fair and appropriate and decides on their own. But mine is not a invalid or uninformed opinion just because I do not work for an airline or am not a pilot (it is actually invalid and uniformed because "I know a pilot and he told me that...."  And BOY do we all know that   ).

Tugg

[Edited 2016-03-04 15:49:16]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:45 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 136):
Maybe you know what was in the contract that was turned down, can you please tell us? I know several people have asked and not one of the half dozen or so WN pilots on here have been willing to share for some odd reason. You would think that if it was so bad, they'd love to tell everyone why it was so bad.

Discussing specifics of internal situations on a public message forum is a big risk. Believe me, it's hard taking such a beating in these threads while holding back information that could help give a better understanding of the situation because engaging in public discussion is asking for trouble. I'm being vague here and still have to work up courage to say this much.

But yeah, that's probably why you aren't getting specific answers.

[Edited 2016-03-05 12:48:11]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bobnwa
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:56 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 134):
I see. So the particular training/education they worked for, skills built, and the market bearing compensation they can attain by such, should be limited by some method YOU think/feel is fair, locks them to other people in onther unrelated fields of expertise. Do I have that close?

No not close I am saying that pilots for the large carriers in the US already earn a very nice high pay compared to other folks with the same education. again let me say that they are in the 99 percentile of all wage earners.
 
SXDFC
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:15 pm

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 112):
Sometimes I get the vibe that Anet has its healthy dose of people who hate:

Ill probably catch some flak for this, but here it goes anyways.. There are many people on this site who have never worked one day in the airline industry and think because they travel often or listen to some of the minutia that goes on in these forums that they could do the job better than we could. This is the reason why in my almost nine years of being on this site, I've seen countless professionals leave because some on this site didn't want to hear what someone with experience has to say.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:51 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 148):
There are many people on this site who have never worked one day in the airline industry and think because they travel often or listen to some of the minutia that goes on in these forums that they could do the job better than we could. This is the reason why in my almost nine years of being on this site, I've seen countless professionals leave because some on this site didn't want to hear what someone with experience has to say.

Amen to this. Let me add something here. Once I was in a very VERY bumpy 4 hour ride and in the approach things got really bad, the Captain told us after apologizing that everything was safe but we would have moderate turbulence and would last for 4 to 5 minutes till touchdown. It was a nightmare and no less than 15 pax puked, so the isle was a weird soup of food debris and vomit (you could imagine the smell!), everyone deplaned as if the plane was on fire, I put my nose close to the air dispenser, and left and saw the FA faces with the carpet they put on top of the aisle (I did not even know they have one on board), and saw the ramp agent enter the cabin, and I told them: "no amount of money would make me work here", and the FA said, "oh they will clean it and we have another short flight to make..." I have always have respect for the airline industry and treat them well I know the big sacrifices they make to give us good service.

Anyhoo.... I hope they resolve this issues and keep work as a happy environment.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 683
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:46 am

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 150):

Your post is so inaccurate about so many things on this issue that I don't even know where to begin. I guess I would refer you to SXDFC's post to see why I won't even bother engaging you on this topic.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
n562wn
Posts: 108
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:09 am



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 148):
This is the reason why in my almost nine years of being on this site, I've seen countless professionals leave because some on this site didn't want to hear what someone with experience has to say.
Quoting SWADawg (Reply 151):
Your post is so inaccurate about so many things on this issue that I don't even know where to begin. I guess I would refer you to SXDFC's post to see why I won't even bother engaging you on this topic.

     

I hear ya. This thread is so riddled with misinformation stated as fact that I've not even entertained replying anymore. I just simply shake my head, smile and move on with life. Many people that actually know all the details have tried to explain the real situation, but it falls on deaf ears. Why even bother engaging if people don't like/believe, therefore won't accept the truth?

[Edited 2016-03-05 22:18:28]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:02 am

Southwest is nowhere near bankruptcy, nor will what they are asking take them there. Standard negotiations and posturing....
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Andy33
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:29 am

Quoting C767P (Reply 58):
Really? Yeah, I think the FAA is involved in the contract negotiations *eye roll*

Most people here are saying it is ridiculous for WN pilots to say they won’t touch the MAX until they get a new contract. My point that is if the FAA isn’t allowing them to fly all three types they have a legit argument to connect a new contract to the MAX. And to ask for more to fly it.

As a mere outsider, can I ask (and others have asked before without any answer) how "new type" is defined in the contract that is in force today? Either the contract regards MAX and NG as one and the same, or it doesn't, or it is ambiguous, or there's no definition at all. If there is a clear definition, then either the union or the company will have to back down, however it is spun, or reach a compromise.

If there's an ambiguous definition, or no definition at all, and there are no successful negotiations, things will end up in front of a court or arbitrator eventually. That's when the FAA's position becomes relevant (and only then).
The judge or arbitrator will be looking for a usable definition, and the fact that an impartial and authoritative body regards the MAX as sufficiently different from the NG and Classic 737s that the same person cannot be authorised to fly all three safely will have a lot of weight. It's a very long way from reaching that stage though, and it probably never will.
 
SWADawg
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:34 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 155):

Our contract with WN specifically says which Aircraft are permitted to be flown by WN pilots. Currently those Aircraft are the 737-300/-500/-700 and with agreement via a previous side letter, the 737-800. The current contract does NOT include language for the 737 MAX 7, MAX 8, or MAX 9. In order for the company to be able to fly the MAX, those Aircraft types will have to be added to the contract via a new Tentative Agreement.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
737tanker
Posts: 398
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:08 pm

SWADawg is 100% correct in his post. I would just add that SWAPA would be doing the same thing if WN wanted to start flying the 737-900 or the 737-900ER. The contract doesn't say that WN pilots fly the 737 but which exact models we fly. Additionally, unlike what wnflyguy said, we want to fly all models of the 737 that WN operates. Not to be limited to only certain models, which is what WN management wanted in the turned down TA.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:30 pm

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 156):

Our contract with WN specifically says which Aircraft are permitted to be flown by WN pilots. Currently those Aircraft are the 737-300/-500/-700 and with agreement via a previous side letter, the 737-800. The current contract does NOT include language for the 737 MAX 7, MAX 8, or MAX 9. In order for the company to be able to fly the MAX, those Aircraft types will have to be added to the contract via a new Tentative Agreement.

If one has never worked under a labor contract one will not understand specificity that is needed to establish terms. Anything broad is subject to interpretation and more often than not tilts in the company's favor. If the WN pilots only had the 737 listed and not its specific variants, then this would have been a much harder fight to win.

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 155):
If there's an ambiguous definition, or no definition at all, and there are no successful negotiations, things will end up in front of a court or arbitrator eventually. That's when the FAA's position becomes relevant (and only then).
The judge or arbitrator will be looking for a usable definition, and the fact that an impartial and authoritative body regards the MAX as sufficiently different from the NG and Classic 737s that the same person cannot be authorised to fly all three safely will have a lot of weight. It's a very long way from reaching that stage though, and it probably never will.

The FAAs position is relevant now. This the basis for the pilots argument. Its a trickle affect. The gap between the Classic and Max is too large according to the FAA, one pilot cannot fly the three types only two. WN solution is to split their pilot group and pay both group the same rate. WN pilots say no.. different seniority list require different rates. You can't split the work group and still pay both groups the same rate. That's not how the world works as much as the company believe it does.

If no contract is settled prior to the MAX delivery date, I foresee the company filing a grievance against the union in an effort to attempt to strong-arm the SWAPA and their pilots. But if anyone hasn't realized it yet these 737 drivers aren't no push overs.

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