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C767P
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 50):
That may well be the case, but this discussion is about contract issues, not what the FAA thinks. In other words, your statement isn't relevant to the real matter at hand.

I think it has everything to do with it.

If the FAA says you can not fly the 300, 700/800, and the MAX does that not prove the pilots point that its a new type and should be compensated differently for it?
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:43 pm

Sometimes unions use this small glitches (737 differences), to negotiate, now its the time, there is a good revenue, loads, and cheap fuel, if not now when?

Lets be real here and see that a happy Pilot is better than a grumpy frustrated underpaid one, so I think WN should at least equalize the wages with other legacies.

Hope they cam work out their differences, being a pilot is a complex career as it is, and with bad pay...it is hell.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
ont 737
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:46 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 53):
If the FAA says you can not fly the 300, 700/800, and the MAX does that not prove the pilots point that its a new type and should be compensated differently for it?

It's a little grayer than that. To clarify, the FAA is saying you can fly 2 of the generations of 737 (classic/NG or NG/MAX) but not all 3 (classic/NG/MAX).
 
FlyHossD
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:49 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 53):
If the FAA says you can not fly the 300, 700/800, and the MAX does that not prove the pilots point that its a new type and should be compensated differently for it?

Do you understand that the FAA doesn't negotiate contracts? This is a matter between Southwest and SWAPA - the FAA will NOT be involved.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 52):
I guess my college degree, MBA, and years of experience really haven't adequately set me up for success. Maybe I should go sit in a cockpit for hours to get a 'real' education and experience.

That you would think a few hours in a cockpit would qualify as a "real education" illustrates how out-of-touch you are. And your profile, including an MBA, falls short of the real decades of experience found in the cockpit, especially in the left seat.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
canyonblue17
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:50 pm

Dumb question but here goes. Would you rather work a little harder and get a little less to avoid what every other airline has had to suffer through - bankruptcy - or demand and threaten to get every penny that leads to the "industry standard" - bankruptcy? The more Southwest is like other airlines, the more likely it will go through what every other airline has been through.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
C767P
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 56):
Do you understand that the FAA doesn't negotiate contracts? This is a matter between Southwest and SWAPA - the FAA will NOT be involved.

Really? Yeah, I think the FAA is involved in the contract negotiations *eye roll*

Most people here are saying it is ridiculous for WN pilots to say they won’t touch the MAX until they get a new contract. My point that is if the FAA isn’t allowing them to fly all three types they have a legit argument to connect a new contract to the MAX. And to ask for more to fly it.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:01 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 58):
Most people here are saying it is ridiculous for WN pilots to say they won’t touch the MAX until they get a new contract. My point that is if the FAA isn’t allowing them to fly all three types they have a legit argument to connect a new contract to the MAX. And to ask for more to fly it.

Obtuse: annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand: he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse.

If you were to buy a car and finance it with your bank, would the Department of Transportation be a party to that (purchase) contract? That seems to be the position you're advocating here. The FAA's position on flying multiple generations of 737s isn't germane here.

Contract: a written or spoken agreement, especially one concerning employment, sales, or tenancy, that is intended to be enforceable by law: both parties must sign employment contracts | a network of doctors and hospitals under contract to provide services.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
tozairport
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:09 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 57):

Dumb question but here goes.

  

Pilot salaries did not cause DAL, AMR, NW, or UAL to go bankrupt. Management incompetence combined with world events and government ambivalence did. Bringing WN up to industry standard rates or above might affect management bonuses but that is about it.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:25 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 52):
Yep, threatening to not fly a plane for an airline will not affect the company's revenue. Spot on analysis.

It's not a threat. It's a negotiation. Are you saying that it's preferable for the airline to be able to say "Here, fly this thing, for the rate we want to pay, to the place we want to fly it, and keep your mouths shut"?

Quoting Dallas (Reply 52):
I guess my college degree, MBA, and years of experience really haven't adequately set me up for success. Maybe I should go sit in a cockpit for hours to get a 'real' education and experience.

Based on a few of your comments, I'm starting to wonder. I'm not well-educated, but sometimes folks who are *think* they are smarter and more insightful than they really are. Not saying that's you, but if you are going to use an MBA to prove something - particularly on an airline forum - you might receive an incredulous response.

Quoting Reply 55):
It's a little grayer than that. To clarify, the FAA is saying you can fly 2 of the generations of 737 (classic/NG or NG/MAX) but not all 3 (classic/NG/MAX).

Aren't they accelerating the 737 classic retirement anyhow?

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 56):
Do you understand that the FAA doesn't negotiate contracts? This is a matter between Southwest and SWAPA - the FAA will NOT be involved.

Of course. The point is that in the past the pilots have been able to fly the 300/500/700/800 all interchangeably IINM. Now they are being handed a plane and told that it is different *enough* that they won't be able to fly all lines the same. This just gives the pilots something extra to take into their negotiations.

Nobody is saying that it's up to the FAA.

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 57):

Dumb question but here goes. Would you rather work a little harder and get a little less to avoid what every other airline has had to suffer through - bankruptcy - or demand and threaten to get every penny that leads to the "industry standard" - bankruptcy? The more Southwest is like other airlines, the more likely it will go through what every other airline has been through.

That presupposes that there are only two possible outcomes. WN has shown that this isn't the case.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 59):
Obtuse

With all due respect, I think that's the pot calling the kettle black.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:36 pm

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 62):
With all due respect, I think that's the pot calling the kettle black.

How so, Dave? I'd appreciate a sincere response.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:37 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 63):
How so, Dave? I'd appreciate a sincere response.

The impression I get is that you are calling the other poster obtuse. Is that incorrect?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
canyonblue17
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:38 pm

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 62):
WN has shown that this isn't the case.

They have shown that by acting differently than other carriers. The current situation appears to be right out of the standard playbook for unions and management from every other airline that wound up in bankruptcy.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:43 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 65):
They have shown that by acting differently than other carriers. The current situation appears to be right out of the standard playbook for unions and management from every other airline that wound up in bankruptcy.

While I don't disagree, I think there is still a lot of momentum in history there that will lead them to a positive outcome. I'm not expecting a visit to BK court for WN.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:48 pm

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 64):
The impression I get is that you are calling the other poster obtuse. Is that incorrect?

-Dave


Dave, first thanks for the prompt reply.

My intent was not quite an accusation. Rather, as I stated, the contract - between WN and SWAPA - doesn't involve the FAA, so why does he keep bringing up that point? So the real question is, what is his or her motive for doing so?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:51 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 67):
and sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft doesn't make one an expert at running a business... see how that goes both ways?

Nor did I claim to be one.* However, that didn't stop Dallas, a young person with an MBA(!) from speculating about about airline pilot negotiations.


*BTW, I retired from airline flying a few years ago to run the family business; it's going well despite my lack of an MBA.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Dallas
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:58 pm

Seeing how pilots here have been responding and are defensive against any other viewpoint, I can understand why negotiations have taken 3+ years.

I might not be a pilot, but I did go to college, received degrees, and have a skill set that I bring to the table. Same goes with rampers, who are not pilots. Same with flight attendants, who are not pilots. Same with all of those non-management regular GO folks, who are not pilots. It is pretty remarkable how defensive pilots are. For such an intelligent group that seems to know and deserve everything, maybe they should go off and run their own airline. But before doing that, maybe a large slice of humble pie would help. I came from nothing and have had to earn most of everything I have in my life. Knowing what it's like to come from nothing makes very appreciative of what I have, and what I could lose.

With the culture and attitudes today, it seems WN should just drive themselves into bankruptcy, rip up the contracts, lay off multiple expensive employees, and start over with cheap labor costs. Can't wait to see the reaction then on this forum and to see if people are appreciative of what they had.

I know it is negotiations, but it seems quite hilarious that pilots are complaining about a brand new and more efficient aircraft. It sure sounds like they would prefer flying 30-year old -200s and -300s. Instead of flying something more modern, efficient, brand new, and better, they're arguing ("negotiating") that WN should continue flying the older aircrafts, and using that as a bargaining chip. I'm sure this would affect FAs who would prefer working on more modern aircraft. I'm pretty sure this would affect MX who would prefer newer and more modern aircraft.

Just my two cents and speaking from my perspective, that is all.
 
Dallas
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:03 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 69):
Nor did I claim to be one.* However, that didn't stop Dallas, a young person with an MBA(!) from speculating about about airline pilot negotiations.


*BTW, I retired from airline flying a few years ago to run the family business; it's going well despite my lack of an MBA

All I was trying to say was that I too have skills and an education. It seems like you believe that unless I sit in a cockpit, I am not capable or entitled of having thoughts or opinions. I also provided FACTS and evidence about pay rates to back up my thoughts. I do not think I am a better person than a pilot, ramper, someone that is unemployed, management, etc. I am humble and appreciative to have a job, and my MBA comment was meant to show that us non-pilots too have skills and have put in time and work to improve our skills.

Congrats on your business success. I wish you the best and hope it continues to thrive.
 
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par13del
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Quoting trent900 (Reply 19):
Can anyone please explain why aircraft types are covered in these contracts and not aircraft categories?

When you only have one type of a/c in your fleet, categories become relevant to personnel not equipment.

Quoting winginit (Reply 49):
given their fleet and technological capabilities, they're unable to do so themselves and won't be equipped to do so for some time barring the establishment of some sort of northern launching point a la WS.

If they purchase wide body a/c they can commence operations as soon as the a/c are on premises and the pilots trained, as domestic expansion markets diminish, the next logical step is international, which they are starting, once the 737 range routes are done the next step is wide body a/c going further.
 
strfyr51
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:22 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 52):
I guess my college degree, MBA, and years of experience really haven't adequately set me up for success. Maybe I should go sit in a cockpit for hours to get a 'real' education and experience.

If that's the tone you enter in Labor negotiations?? Then you wasted your Time and Money getting your Degree
Because you don't know Jack!!
Labor negotiations is just THAT! Negotiations. You give some they give some and come to a happy medium.
Since Airlines are a Labor intensive industry?? The employees have a modicum of security in that without THEM?
All of those great airplanes are nothing bur a bunch of "BEER CANS" without the people to fly, load, fuel, and Service them.
Southwest is GOING to Negotiate with the pilots no matter what they claim.
Not One of those execs can fix an airplane, clean an airplane or fly an airplane in airline service SO?!
They'll have to talk to the people who DO!! So? in the end it'll be as it's always BEEN.
Southwest Will fly and the Pilots WILL Get Paid... Make Book on it!
They have NO intention of putting southwest into a strike position. If they did?
there would be Parties happening in Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, San Bruno, and down in Florida. all celebrating WN's management stupidity!
Management is JUST "Talking", Actually? "flapping their lips" .!
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:24 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 68):
My intent was not quite an accusation. Rather, as I stated, the contract - between WN and SWAPA - doesn't involve the FAA, so why does he keep bringing up that point? So the real question is, what is his or her motive for doing so?

I think the only reason it is brought up is to display why a pilot might view the MAX as a different type. If the FAA views it as different enough from a classic that they can't be flown by the same pilot, then logically you will have pilots flying older, smaller type but that are making the same wage as someone who is qualified and flying a newer, larger type. This can be something that a pilot might take issue with, particularly if their peers at other carriers are paid more to fly on larger types.

I think that's the only reason the FAA's position is brought up. It's not to say that the FAA has direct involvement. It's to give context to the position of SWAPA (rightly or wrongly) that they are justified in asking for more pay or whatnot to bring a MAX online.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 69):
*BTW, I retired from airline flying a few years ago to run the family business; it's going well despite my lack of an MBA.

Some might say that this is WHY you are successful.  
Quoting Dallas (Reply 71):
It is pretty remarkable how defensive pilots are.

When you've watched what has happened at other carriers, you start to become suspect of your company's position I'm sure. You call it defensive. They call it jaded. .

Quoting Dallas (Reply 71):
Instead of flying something more modern, efficient, brand new, and better, they're arguing ("negotiating") that WN should continue flying the older aircrafts, and using that as a bargaining chip.

First of all, bargaining chips are all that they have to work with. It's how union negotiations work so you might as well get over it. I don't in any way think they are advocating for keeping old planes instead of getting new ones (and I don't think you believe that either). They are saying "Hey, we believe that the MAX deserves [more pay]. If you want to bring it in-house we need to negotiate that pay. In the interim, you have a huge fleet of older 737's that can soldier on for years, and that we're happy to keep flying."

Quoting Dallas (Reply 71):
I'm sure this would affect FAs who would prefer working on more modern aircraft.

Never underestimate the ability of an FA to find something wrong with ANY aircraft.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 71):
I'm pretty sure this would affect MX who would prefer newer and more modern aircraft.

Why? Maybe more maintenance-intensive planes are actually better for their paycheck than new planes that never break.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 72):
I am humble and appreciative to have a job

But yet you're ready to ditch it if you aren't happy. Fine. However, if that means starting over at $30,000/year when you were making $100,000 before, it isn't such a palatable solution. Particularly when you could instead negotiate a new agreement that keeps you in your job and happy and keeps your employer making money and happy.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
winginit
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:31 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 73):
If they purchase wide body a/c they can commence operations as soon as the a/c are on premises and the pilots trained, as domestic expansion markets diminish, the next logical step is international, which they are starting, once the 737 range routes are done the next step is wide body a/c going further.

We won't see WN purchase anything but 737s for at least the next five years if not the next decade or more, so your point is entirely moot as it relates to whether or not long-haul codeshare would be beneficial for the carrier in the short-term.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:48 pm

Quoting winginit (Reply 76):
We won't see WN purchase anything but 737s for at least the next five years if not the next decade or more

We "won't see" or we "probably won't see"? There's a distinction there that probably matters to some people.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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barney captain
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:54 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 71):
I might not be a pilot, but I did go to college, received degrees, and have a skill set that I bring to the table. Same goes with rampers, who are not pilots. Same with flight attendants, who are not pilots. Same with all of those non-management regular GO folks, who are not pilots. It is pretty remarkable how defensive pilots are.

Dallas,

Since I started as a ramper, worked my way up as an agent and now pilot - is my opinion valid in your eyes?

You are way off base. No one is "complaining" about flying new equipment - it's a legal matter because the MAX is not in our contract. That's it.

The crux of the matter isn't the MAX, its pay, retirement and benefits- but there's no point trying to convince you.

We will happily fly the MAX - as soon as it's in our contract.

Go re-read the first sign held by the pilot in the pic I posted. Do you not think we all want the same thing for the company?

Additionally, in an industry where the average pilot contract is 5 years, we have had exactly ONE CONTRACT IN THE LAST 21 YEARS. Let that sink in for a second. That is unprecedented. We signed the 08' contract and the one before was in 1994. Everything else was done through side letters and contract extensions - in the spirit of doing the right thing for the company.

So spare me the "defensive pilot" rhetoric.

[Edited 2016-03-02 12:22:59]

[Edited 2016-03-02 13:04:20]
Southeast Of Disorder
 
lhrnue
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:03 pm

Quoting toltommy (Thread starter):
could open a real can of worms for any carrier with CEO and NEO aircraft orders.

What has this WN topic to do with Airbus or even any other airline?
 
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par13del
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting winginit (Reply 76):
so your point is entirely moot as it relates to whether or not long-haul codeshare would be beneficial for the carrier in the short-term.

Well the current contract does not allow code shares, they have it by agreement not a contract.

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 79):
What has this WN topic to do with Airbus or even any other airline?

In the USA, the majors are including "me too" provisions in their pilot contracts, so if WN pilots get a MAX included at a different rate from a 800, one can expect the pilot groups at AA, DL and UA to push for the same type treatment on their MAX and NEO fleets.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:29 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 71):
Seeing how pilots here have been responding...

Interesting post, Dallas.

One area that hasn't been touched on here is the Railway Labor Act and it's impact on airline labor groups, especially in the last couple of decades. The R.L.A. has been used as a club on labor and the mergers have created an environment where a pilot strike by a legacy U.S. carrier is virtually impossible. As a result, the legacy pilot unions/groups are often forced to use every nuance, no matter how small, to their advantage. So I'm not a bit surprised that SWAPA has chosen to fight this battle, especially after the "free passes" that WN has enjoyed in recent years.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
q120
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:45 pm

Union doing what it does best, waste peoples time and money.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
usflyguy
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:06 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 74):
Labor negotiations is just THAT! Negotiations. You give some they give some and come to a happy medium.

and that goes both ways...

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 74):
Southwest is GOING to Negotiate with the pilots no matter what they claim.

So... what was in the TA that was voted down? In NEGOTIATIONS, you give some and you get some... all of the pilots that I've talked to say I want, I want, I want and when asked what they are willing to give up, it's silence or "nothing, we deserve it."

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 75):
When you've watched what has happened at other carriers, you start to become suspect of your company's position I'm sure. You call it defensive. They call it jaded. .

So, you give up some of the pay to have much better QOL guarantees and premium pay/time in the contract.

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 75):
Never underestimate the ability of an FA to find something wrong with ANY aircraft.

and never underestimate a pilot to find something wrong with a FA... What was that? "gays, grandes, and grannys"?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:12 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 20):
Nice touch Max, thank you.

Hey, I think I see my buddy in that picture!  

Although sadly I hear that any poor schmo that did not participate is basically in the doghouse (to put it nicely). Even "leaving early" netted you a special color lanyard to identify those who did.

Quoting n562wn (Reply 30):
Industry leading pay and benefits? I hope you're talking about your work group because it's definitely not the pilot work group. The pilots are merely asking for industry STANDARD pay and benefits, which they are far from in many categories, a far cry from you suggesting that they're asking for the "moon". But please feel free to continue spreading misinformation. Jeopardize your future? Hardly...

I think what makes Southwest actually better and work so well as airline is the fact that it is not "industry standard". The fact that a pilot can actually help in the cabin etc. is what makes Southwest such a good airline.

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 51):
Unfortunately that's not how a unionized industry works. While you personally may be able to step into a new job with good compensation and room for near-term growth, pilots have to start over at the bottom everytime they switch employers. The more tenured your are, the more benefit comes from just sticking it out rather than having to once again start over at a new carrier as the bottom guy/girl. Those of us in the non-unionized workforce really have a different setup and are often able to negotiate some of the compensation and benefits separately.

I have often thought it would be smart for pilots (and other work groups) to establish a nationwide seniority scale, similar to what some trades have in place. That way pilots would never be trapped at a failing airline or with management that was crappy. They could leave and move to a better run airline, the union strength would only increase. However I suspect most airline pilots groups would be terrified of essentially "competition" coming into their walled garden and so have created their own gilded cage

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 54):
Hope they cam work out their differences, being a pilot is a complex career as it is, and with bad pay...it is hell.

Only Regional pilots truly have "bad pay". Though a starting FO isn't living high on the hog, maybe even struggling a bit for the first few years, that's for sure.

Regarding regional pilots, I do not understand why they do not establish their own pilot union group as the two are in such obvious conflict with each other (mainline and regional). And ALPA or however will always listen most to those that contribute the most and that will always be the mainline pilots by far.

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 57):
Dumb question but here goes. Would you rather work a little harder and get a little less to avoid what every other airline has had to suffer through - bankruptcy - or demand and threaten to get every penny that leads to the "industry standard" - bankruptcy? The more Southwest is like other airlines, the more likely it will go through what every other airline has been through.

I tend to agree that the key is to be different, and decidedly so, to have any real advantage over others in the market and keep up robust growth. "Industry standard" is death, (OK that may be extreme but it will badly affect growth I think) to what Southwest is (though I do very much understand it is far from its origins nowadays and not the same airline).

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 60):
Southwest pilots have been in negotiations with the company for four years now. That means some Southwest pilots have not seen a pay increase, even a cost of living increase, in that time. I bet GO employees have.Meanwhile the cost of living continues to rise.

And they are paid an open market rate that varies from person to person. Anyone is welcome to have that. I am sure management would very much approve that as an option. However the pilots never would, so the pilots are also the reason the negotiations have been going on for four years.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 74):
there would be Parties happening in Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, San Bruno, and down in Florida. all celebrating WN's management stupidity!

And also the union, it just creates a bad situation all around. I really wish people would understand that, both sides suffer and are at fault. In the case of the recent TA that was reject how can it be said it was not a result of both parties to the negotiation?

Quoting barney captain (Reply 78):
The crux of the matter isn't the MAX, its pay, retirement and benefits-

And scope/work rules.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 78):
Do you not think we want the same thing for the company?

I do sincerely believe that they do want the same thing.... but they approach it from a different direction. The hardest part is to come to an agreement without one side or the other having an issue. A perfectly negotiated contract would have a 50.1% approval (as the recent ramp contract did), as it means that management did the best they could. However I do not think that is the view that pilots or most unions groups would have, My guess is that in their opinion a perfect contract is one that gets 100% (or close) of the vote.

Those two sides, approaches, create a lot of issues.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2565
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:15 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 67):
Because it's tough to live on an average of $200,000 a year while working 15 days a month? I bet senior managers in the GO don't make that much...

And why should they? They dont have people's lives in their hands

Can anyone list an airline has two different seniority list that pay the same rates?

Quoting barney captain (Reply 78):

As a ramper, the pilot group has my absolute support. My fellow rampers accepted a sub par contract that left money on the table. Its between the pilots, f/a's or mx to go get it now.. so go get it.
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:30 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
As a ramper, the pilot group has my absolute support. My fellow rampers accepted a sub par contract that left money on the table. Its between the pilots, f/a's or mx to go get it now.. so go get it.

And this is exactly what I was referring to about the difficulty in the two different approaches and views on any negotiation and contract. Hopefully there won't be many that are truly and deeply upset for a significant period of time, but the bad feelings linger and create animosity and resentment. That is always bad for all parties, the entire company, union or management or whatever.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:38 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
And why should they? They dont have people's lives in their hands

I knew that was coming. You mean like how a bus driver has people's lives in their hands?
 
Dallas
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:37 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:04 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
And why should they? They dont have people's lives in their hands
Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
As a ramper, the pilot group has my absolute support. My fellow rampers accepted a sub par contract that left money on the table. Its between the pilots, f/a's or mx to go get it now.. so go get it.

Attitudes and comments like these are what escalate these discussions and doesn't do anything positive to help the culture or future.

[Edited 2016-03-02 14:38:13]
 
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tb727
Posts: 2262
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:53 pm

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 51):
I'm honestly not familiar with the WN pilots group or their compensation, but have they had to take cuts in the past?

I should have clarified that, the industry as a whole that is the case, which is fine and expected. No, WN pilots have never had that situation to my knowledge.

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 51):
Reminds me of the UA union guy that wanted to get every last golden egg from the goose back in the '90's. That didn't turn out so well.

Didn't say take the egg but to get a slight edge on your peers, go for it while you can. Save the race to the bottom for when the the industry tanks again.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 67):
What are WN vs. UA vs. DL vs. AA vs. AS current rates on the 737 and B6 and NK on the A320?

5 year Captain payscale 737/(A320 B6/NK)...
AA 222
DL 206
WN 200
AS 181
B6 185
NK 136

4 of those airlines are in contract talks right now WN, B6, NK and DL.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
pointer
Posts: 27
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:04 am

TB727

5 year Captain payscale 737/(A320 B6/NK)...
AA 222
DL 206
WN 200
AS 181
B6 185
NK 136
F9 141

5 of those airlines are in contract talks right now WN, B6, NK and DL and F9

Don't forget about us bottom feeders at F9! We opened up contract negotiations today!
 
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tb727
Posts: 2262
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RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:09 am

Quoting Pointer (Reply 90):
Don't forget about us bottom feeders at F9! We opened up contract negotiations today!

I'm right there with you lol! I almost texted my buddy there to ask but didn't, my bad, good luck!

F9 $133
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
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barney captain
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:04 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
As a ramper, the pilot group has my absolute support. My fellow rampers accepted a sub par contract that left money on the table. Its between the pilots, f/a's or mx to go get it now.. so go get it.

Thank you, I hope the terms of your new contract work out the best for you.


For the first time in our history SWA Pilots have taken to the streets.

Ask yourself why.

We didn't come to this point lightly, or overnight.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:11 am

Quoting winginit (Reply 87):

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
And why should they? They dont have people's lives in their hands

I knew that was coming. You mean like how a bus driver has people's lives in their hands?

And that response wasn't predictable either.....tell me, what's the engine shut down procedure for a bus?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:59 am

Quoting Dallas (Reply 88):
Attitudes and comments like these are what escalate these discussions and doesn't do anything positive to help the culture or future.

And telling people that if they don't like it, they can quit and go somewhere else - that's positive and helpful to the discussion, the company culture, or the future?

Quoting tb727 (Reply 89):
I should have clarified that, the industry as a whole that is the case, which is fine and expected. No, WN pilots have never had that situation to my knowledge.

Ok, cool.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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barney captain
Posts: 2394
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:52 am

Quoting Dallas (Reply 71):
It is pretty remarkable how defensive pilots are. For such an intelligent group that seems to know and deserve everything, maybe they should go off and run their own airline. But before doing that, maybe a large slice of humble pie would help.


How's this for humble pie? Big enough slice for you?

I'm not sure how long you've had your ID, but I'm approaching 25 years. For your perspective -

The pilots of SWAPA bought and paid for this full page ad in the USAToday on May 21, 2008 - the day Herb stepped down as CEO. Things have changed, and we are not the least bit happy to be in the position we find ourselves in. Oh, and that ad was taken out during our last contract negotiation. The history of the pilots here challenges your preconceived prejudice. Btw, ask someone about how the pilots prevented the one and only furlough here - thereby protecting the company's perfect track record. All we're asking for is a reasonable contract from an absurdly healthy company.




[Edited 2016-03-02 21:53:27]
Southeast Of Disorder
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2565
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:00 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 95):

I can almost guarantee Mr. Kelly wont be getting one.....from any work group.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:29 am

Here is something that I hope my fellow WN employees agree with me on..

Southwest Airlines is successful because of the PEOPLE who work for SOUTHWEST AIRLINES.. We all work hard for this company, and its only fair that we look out for the future of our company in this ever changing industry. The Pilots and Flight Attendants have shown support for us on the Ground during our contract hurdles, and its only fair we show them the same support.
 
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zeke
Posts: 15712
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:16 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 67):
Because it's tough to live on an average of $200,000 a year while working 15 days a month?

15 days per month is what an office worker will do over a year on average by the time you take public holidays, leave, and weekends into account. Shift workers, which is what pilots are, normally get more time off than office staff to take into account sleep disruptions.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 78):
The crux of the matter isn't the MAX, its pay, retirement and benefits- but there's no point trying to convince you.

That the way it looks from the outside, and its not unique to WN. Pilot wages are being attacked worldwide while productivity is being pushed through the roof, and flight time limitations are being used as rostering targets.

We never operate machinery at maximum levels for extended period of times, but they think pilots can. It has long term health impacts.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
d8s
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:36 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 98):

A full-time office worker will be paid to work 2,080 hours in a year and that equates to 21.25 days per month. When you remove two weeks vacation and 8 holidays that still leaves you with 19.75 days per month that would be worked on average.
 
jonathan-l
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 4:20 am

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:44 am

I can already picture an Airbus slide highlighting the absence of commonality between a 737-800 and a 737-8MAX.
Says who? Southwest pilots.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3174
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:47 am

Quoting winginit (Reply 87):

I knew that was coming. You mean like how a bus driver has people's lives in their hands?

How many hundreds of thousands of dollars in training does it take to be a bus driver? But I think they should also be well paid. This debate always comes down to people wanting everyone else to be paid less than them.
 
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barney captain
Posts: 2394
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:49 am

Quoting jonathan-l (Reply 100):
I can already picture an Airbus slide highlighting the absence of commonality between a 737-800 and a 737-8MAX.
Says who? Southwest pilots.

Again, we will fly it - as soon as it's permitted with a contract.

It's not that we can't or won't, it's that we're not allowed to under our current agreement.

This however, is not the point of contention with the company - in spite of how the headline reads.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
jonathan-l
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 4:20 am

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:52 am

I was being tongue-in-cheek.
 
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zeke
Posts: 15712
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:55 am

Quoting d8s (Reply 99):
A full-time office worker will be paid to work 2,080 hours in a year and that equates to 21.25 days per month. When you remove two weeks vacation and 8 holidays that still leaves you with 19.75 days per month that would be worked on average.

I will guarantee you that any WN pilots will be at the behest of the company for far more than 2100 hours any year, working holidays, working weekends, working nights.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21262
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: WN Pilots: New Contract, Or No 737-800MAX

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:47 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 102):
It's not that we can't or won't, it's that we're not allowed to under our current agreement.

That is agreed to. WN and the union need to sit down and come to an agreement. But one fair for both sides.

If this isn't solved in a timely manner, WN will be competing against the NEO/MAX competitors with older equipment. Judging from LH's assertions of NEO cost savings, that isn't long term viable. So there will be a solution.

But will the solution allow WN to grow? That will be interesting.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 83):
So... what was in the TA that was voted down? In NEGOTIATIONS, you give some and you get some... all of the pilots that I've talked to say I want, I want, I want and when asked what they are willing to give up, it's silence or "nothing, we deserve it."

That sums it up.

Pilots want certain things in the contract.
The company will ask for flexibility (e.g, redeyes) and other bits.
During the next contract the 'Cadillac tax' will hit on health insurance, so that will be adjusted.


Lightsaber
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