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hz747300
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:26 am

So any confirmation on the part belonging to an airplane like a 777? Or any confirmation on space aliens involvement?
Keep on truckin'...
 
YoungMans
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:49 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 147):
So whatever happened to MH370 that night was not just known to the authorities in Malaysia; it must have also been known to many other countries, i.e. to their authorities.

A bit more on this point ....
At what stage would the Chinese authorities have known that ...
a) MH370 is not responding to calls (uncertainty); and
b) that it would not arrive at all (flight disappeared)?
 
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AlexA340B777
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:21 pm

There is some news on the net that another piece could have been found...:


http://www.reddit.com/r/MH370/comments/49tuia/new_mh370_debris/

http://turntable.kagiso.io/images/MH3701.original.jpg

http://turntable.kagiso.io/images/MH3702.original.jpg


They state that the number on the top of the part is matching 777 mainteneance docs of wing parts...

Hot find?


Alex
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AlexA340B777
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:58 pm

http://www.ecr.co.za/news-sport/news...amily-picks-possible-mh370-debris/

Apparently found in Mozambique already back in December and brought home to South Africa like souvenir... Ouch.

I guess we have something here, as the number on the piece is really matching the part number of a Boeing 777 "outbd flap aft rh side access panel" in following link:

http://portal.aersale.com/ECommerce/...9250-10%20(0).pdf&isDocument=False


Should make the big news soon if all that info is correct, so lets wait and see the next hours...


Alex
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WarrenPlatts
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:13 pm

OK here are the pictures:


Note the same white skin with honeycombed core that we keep seeing.


This shows the part number "676EB". Those reddit guys have already identified it as an access panel for the right hand trailing edge outboard flap. Then I dug this up:

http://i.imgur.com/s2upaby.png
Just from looking at it, to even get at the access panel 676EB, the flap MUST BE IN THE EXTENDED POSITION. IOW, the flap must have been extended at the time of the crash, or else it would have been protected by the main wing. Which indicates that the aircraft was intentionally ditched, and that the current search area is bogus....
 
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litz
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:23 pm

?: after a flameout, or via windmilling, is there accumulator pressure in hydraulics that can do things like extend flaps?

also, don't blindly assume that just because a flap assembly is or isn't extended means this panel could or couldn't be detached from the rest of the assembly. When being violently "disassembled" via a crash sequence, all kinds of parts go in all kinds of directions.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:28 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 149):

I wouldn't say they're totally incompetent, but rather that they're complacent. The last time Malaysia had to fend of a sneak attack from the air was during the 1960s "Konfrontasi" conflict between Indonesia under President Sukarno. All threats towards the nation are internal hence the Army & Navy is far more involved with it than the Air Force.

Sure they practice & practice, but here's the thing with Malaysians (especially government agencies) - when things don't go by the book, it will take some for them to make sense of what's happening.

I knew several Malaysians during my time in India and yeah, that does make sense. It's pretty much the same with many south and south east asian countries.
 
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777Jet
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:43 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 149):
We've been through this for I don't know how many threads over the past year.

Yes, we have.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 149):
IF Zaharie had maliciously intended to murder 238 people to make a statement against the government,

And for those who repeatedly suggest that the Captain could not have done it because he didn't leave the usual suicide note, trail of evidence, or he didn't do something spectacular like fly into the twin towers in KL to make a real statement, just remember that he might have wanted to do things in a way in which nothing could come back to him and therefore his FAMILY. Malaysia still let a plane get away so they look foolish regardless.

It would not be the first time a pilot with bad intentions has tried to do things in a way to protect their family:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

Auburn Calloway - ""He intended to disable the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder before take-off and, once airborne, kill the crew with hammers so their injuries would appear consistent with an accident rather than a hijacking. The speargun would be a last resort. He would then crash the aircraft while just appearing to be an employee killed in an accident. This would make his family eligible for a $2.5 million life insurance policy paid by Federal Express.[2]

As part of his plan to disguise the intended attack as an accident, Calloway attempted to disable the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) by tripping its circuit breaker. During standard pre-flight checks, Peterson noticed the tripped breaker and reset it before take-off so the CVR was reactivated. However, if Calloway successfully killed the crew members with the CVR still on, he would simply have to fly for 30 minutes to erase any trace of a struggle from the CVR's 30 minute loop.[4] ""

So not everyone on a suicide mission chooses to leave behind a trail of evidence - some still think about protecting / minimising the damage to their family...

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 149):
his connection to Anwar would give the Malaysian government a bat to pummel Anwar & his cronies into the ground once and for all thus further STRENGTHENING THEIR POWER! Instead they didn't even make use of that connection to really stick it to Anwar, which I'm pretty sure they're ruing it now.

Again, not all countries are stupid enough to blame one of their own if it means scoring some quick political points might damage the reputation of your people / country. Some countries will even try to ignore what the evidence says to protect one of their own, eg: Egypt Air 990...
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Toni_
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:59 am

So we have another part with a 600 partnumber which means both belonged to the right wing. If I may use the AMM page that KarelWXB posted in the thread of the flaperon that was found on Reunion:

The flaperon belongs to subzone 657. And this new part to the flap fairing just outboard of the flaperon in subzone 676.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 155):
Just from looking at it, to even get at the access panel 676EB, the flap MUST BE IN THE EXTENDED POSITION. IOW, the flap must have been extended at the time of the crash, or else it would have been protected by the main wing. Which indicates that the aircraft was intentionally ditched, and that the current search area is bogus....

I could be wrong, but I think 676EB could be part of the flap fairing itself. The task description refers to an internal zonal inspection of flap support fairing number 7. In which you need extended trailing edge flaps and open access panels 676BB, 676CR/CR, 676DB AND 676GR in order to remove the fairing that is mentioned as 676AB and 676EB in brackets.

If you look at the image, the part appears to have a curved edge which kinda does have some ressemblance with the top of a flap fairing:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alberto Riva



Whether it's part of a flap fairing or panel, we're dealing with a broken piece here. The preparations on the page you showed aim for a careful removal in one piece, and unfortunately that's not how this part came loose. So I believe it's still too early to tell whether it impacted with flaps extended or not.
 
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777Jet
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:19 am

'Malaysia announces MH370 investigation will re-examine missing plane’s pilots and their crew'

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...y/297a0e64299cf4081a4d7b037fc50b1c

It's a long article so I won't copy and paste, but it raises the question; How thoroughly were the pilots and crew investigated / examined the first time? Obviously not thoroughly enough given that they will be re-examined without anything new that points to them other than the fact that the plane has still not been found...
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:34 am

Quoting AlexA340B777 (Reply 154):

Why would anyone pickup a seemingly nondescript piece of trash as a souvenir?

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 152):

You're just grasping at straws.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 158):
Again, not all countries are stupid enough to blame one of their own if it means scoring some quick political points might damage the reputation of your people / country. Some countries will even try to ignore what the evidence says to protect one of their own, eg: Egypt Air 990...

Two different cases - in the case of MS990 the Egyptian government doesn't really have a stake in the matter. Hence it would be wise for them to defend their pilot outright.

In the case of MH370 the Malaysian government has a stake in the matter. Zaharie's actions can be spinned to portray a fiendish plot by Anwar to undermine the Malaysian government. In fact, they can go all out & prosecute the Air Force officials as being co-conspirators, use fake evidence to support those arguments & work the judicial system to favour their side and really nail Anwar & his cronies down. But they didn't do that now did they?

The damage to the country's reputation could easily be negated if they did what I just outlined, and the reward they'll reap from eliminating an opposition bloc would be enormous.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 160):
'Malaysia announces MH370 investigation will re-examine missing plane’s pilots and their crew'

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...y/297a0e64299cf4081a4d7b037fc50b1c

It's a long article so I won't copy and paste, but it raises the question; How thoroughly were the pilots and crew investigated / examined the first time? Obviously not thoroughly enough given that they will be re-examined without anything new that points to them other than the fact that the plane has still not been found...

Even the most thorough of investigations can use a second look to see if the investigators have missed anything. Given that they've hit a dead end, it would be wise to check & recheck everything to make sure all the t's are crossed & i's dotted.

[Edited 2016-03-10 19:40:28]
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coolian2
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:42 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 160):
It's a long article so I won't copy and paste, but it raises the question; How thoroughly were the pilots and crew investigated / examined the first time? Obviously not thoroughly enough given that they will be re-examined without anything new that points to them other than the fact that the plane has still not been found...

Malaysia are just preparing that it won't be found. "The crew did it" sounds a hell of a lot better than "We've got NFI".
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oxymorph
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:49 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 161):
You're just grasping at straws.

Only if you are saying unequivocally that Malaysia has ZERO knowledge of Zaharie being culpable.

If it is otherwise, which it obviously is, then I would humbly suggest that it is you who are doing the grasping.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:02 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 163):
If it is otherwise, which it obviously is, then I would humbly suggest that it is you who are doing the grasping.

Obvious? Not really. When logic is applied their action so far doesn't jive with your idea at all.

But go ahead & continue grasping. I'm through with this endless circling.
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oxymorph
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:17 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 164):
Obvious? Not really. When logic is applied their action so far doesn't jive with your idea at all.

Sure it does. You and Hishammuddin have known Zaharie alone diverted the a/c since the morning of March 8th. Yet no finger pointed.

A perfect fit. And how is the 'criminal investigation' proceeding two years on?

Cheers to you.   
 
lancelot07
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:44 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 158):
It would not be the first time a pilot with bad intentions has tried to do things in a way to protect their family:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

Auburn Calloway .....

You (and Wikipedia) forget to mention that
1. Calloway had a clear-cut motive, a grudge against his employer because he was fired, and he was broke.
2. Calloway did intend to do something spectacular: Crash the plane into Fedex-HQ.

No such things in case of Zaharie Shah, a respected senior captain and reasonably well off.
 
oxymorph
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:58 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 166):
You (and Wikipedia) forget to mention that
1. Calloway had a clear-cut motive, a grudge against his employer because he was fired, and he was broke.
2. Calloway did intend to do something spectacular: Crash the plane into Fedex-HQ.

No such things in case of Zaharie Shah, a respected senior captain and reasonably well off.


1. Zaharie Shah's employeer was MAS. MAS was government owned. I don't know of anyone who hated and detested the Malaysian govt. more than Zaharie. This is not in dispute.
2. Zaharie also intended to do something spectacular. Make a 777 with 238 souls completely vanish.

You are clueless my friend.
 
LH526
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:20 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 155):
Just from looking at it, to even get at the access panel 676EB, the flap MUST BE IN THE EXTENDED POSITION. IOW, the flap must have been extended at the time of the crash, or else it would have been protected by the main wing. Which indicates that the aircraft was intentionally ditched, and that the current search area is bogus....

Technically, bags and aircraft seats are "protected" as well by the fuselage's layer of composit, alloy, insultion etc. If the force of impact is able to smash the plane to smitherines the size of tables, I doubt the structural integrity is anything but certain. This part was washed ashore and it's impossible to tell wether the position of the flaps or slats was extended or not, let alone if MH370 was ditched.
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LandSweetLand
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:25 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 158):
I could be wrong, but I think 676EB could be part of the flap fairing itself. The task description refers to an internal zonal inspection of flap support fairing number 7. In which you need extended trailing edge flaps and open access panels 676BB, 676CR/CR, 676DB AND 676GR in order to remove the fairing that is mentioned as 676AB and 676EB in brackets.


http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...y/6eb0a9ede6f2a61aa78ccee25dbfffde

[Edited 2016-03-11 04:30:50]
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:05 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 146):
Does one really believe that when a plane goes dark precisely at handoff, with PIC Zaharie driving, hours after the Anwar event, that MAS ops wouldn't put the pieces of the puzzle together? They clearly did, and their actions (or lack thereof) buttress this notion unimpeachably.

If they really put the pieces of the puzzle together as quickly as you say, which is almost immediately, they would have scrambled fighters because there would have been no telling whether the PIC would disappear entirely, or crash the airliner into the Kuala Lumpur twin towers. Unless they wanted the PIC to crash into the Petronas Towers. Is that what you are suggesting? A 9-11-style inside job?
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:52 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 170):

If they really put the pieces of the puzzle together as quickly as you say, which is almost immediately, they would have scrambled fighters because there would have been no telling whether the PIC would disappear entirely, or crash the airliner into the Kuala Lumpur twin towers. Unless they wanted the PIC to crash into the Petronas Towers. Is that what you are suggesting? A 9-11-style inside job?

Also, even though it wasn't wartime, what country lets an unknown blip go by on their radar screen without at least querying what that "blip" is or sending up fighter jets?
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:29 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 171):
Also, even though it wasn't wartime, what country lets an unknown blip go by on their radar screen without at least querying what that "blip" is or sending up fighter jets?

They probably mistook it for the CIA's regular run of Indonesian opium headed for the factories of Tajikistan!  
 
gzm
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:32 pm

I know a "colleague" from the former Olympic airlines who was a technician and worked at the hangar.Several months ago I asked for his opinion through a similar greek site (which by the way is in deep decline, partly due to the assertiveness of its members) and he told me in a PM that he believed that the problem with MH370 must have been an electrical one and I am not going to challenge him. It is my belief that everybody that night were simply unprepared for something like that, and the fact that they let it evolve into a mystery is because it suited everyone better. Boeing protected its "product" and Malaysia airlines gained time.Nobody wanted to find out. When a supposed debris field was spotted in South China sea they let it disperse and sink. We were offered instead as proof the indisputable pings and blips of a satellite, of primitive technology indeed, to be taken seriously like gospel.

[Edited 2016-03-11 13:33:46]
 
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pvjin
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:44 pm

Quoting gzm (Reply 173):
Boeing protected its "product" and Malaysia airlines gained time.Nobody wanted to find out. When a supposed debris field was spotted in South China sea they let it disperse and sink

There are some problems with your theory. First, why would they possibly want to let the debris field sink and forget the whole thing if they don't even have FDR and CVR which would tell them what happened? Why cover up a crash before you even know what caused it? And what if this unknown cause happens again, is Boeing just going to cover up all future 777 crashes caused by it?

Quoting gzm (Reply 173):
Malaysia airlines gained time.

Time for what and why would MH possibly want to cover up a crash caused by an electrical failure? For MH a technical explanation would have obviously been much preferred option over a disappearance without any explanation. MH370 remaining a mystery has probably been the very worst option for MH370, now they can't prove it wasn't airline's fault, and constant news about MH370 search or pieces of debris being washed ashore give the airline constant uncomfortable publicity. MH370 is no doubt about the worst kind of accident that could possibly happen to an airline.

[Edited 2016-03-11 13:45:44]
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CaliAtenza
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 172):

They probably mistook it for the CIA's regular run of Indonesian opium headed for the factories of Tajikistan!

Lol, in all seriousness though, there was so much misinformation back when it happened. I remember one report on NPR about how the plane actually landed once, then took off again. That reporter was never heard from again. Then that guy on twitter, I think he was called flyingfish, who kept saying it was a grand conspiracy, also disappeared. There was another report about how the US base (or it was called a signals base) at U-Tapao in Thailand, heard something from MH370.
 
oxymorph
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:31 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 171):
Also, even though it wasn't wartime, what country lets an unknown blip go by on their radar screen without at least querying what that "blip" is or sending up fighter jets?

Let me fix that for you. "lets a KNOWN blip go by their radar screen without at least querying what the 'blip' is or sending up fighter jets".

I assure you PSR was tracking the known blip. They knew it was MH370. Admittedly one has to cherry pick when it comes to anything the snake Hishammuddin says, but for a variety reasons, I take him at his word when he explains why Malaysia did not scramble fighters that morning. What he says, unequivocally, is that they KNEW EXACTLY what the aircraft was.

He decided the best option was to let Zaharie play his hand, come what may. If he had scrambled fighters, well, it's an entirely different ball game. I'm sure you can appreciate this. You're free to believe the 'complacent' Malay culture Bs if you so choose. It's a wonderfully convenient default for pretty much everything that occurred that evening.

But do you really believe this explains MAS ops only making 2 attempts to contact a 'lost' aircraft over an 8 hour period?
 
vr-hkg
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:35 pm

Quoting AlexA340B777 (Reply 153):
There is some news on the net that another piece could have been found...:


http://www.reddit.com/r/MH370/comments/49tuia/new_mh370_debris/

http://turntable.kagiso.io/images/MH3701.original.jpg

http://turntable.kagiso.io/images/MH3702.original.jpg


They state that the number on the top of the part is matching 777 mainteneance docs of wing parts...

Hot find?

This part suffers the same concern for me as the previous couple. Where is the marine encrustation? It doesn't look like it has been in the ocean for two weeks, let alone two years.
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:04 pm

Quoting vr-hkg (Reply 177):
This part suffers the same concern for me as the previous couple. Where is the marine encrustation? It doesn't look like it has been in the ocean for two weeks, let alone two years.

Actually, it looks to me that there is evidence of formerly attached sea life: the brownish rings that surround the 676EB logo. In any case, it's not a big deal. Gooseneck barnacles do not last long at all once a piece of flotsam washes up on the shore. If you did any serious beachcombing, you would know that the vast majority of random junk that can be found on a random beach is not encrusted with a bunch of barnacles.
 
na
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:04 pm

So its now again more than a week, and Boeing hasnt been able to identify wether the wreckage parts discussed about are from a 777 or not? What does them take so long? I mean, I could understand that its difficult to say if its from MH370, but it should be easy for the manufacturer to say wether the parts are from a 777 or not.
 
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777Jet
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:50 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 161):
Zaharie's actions can be spinned to portray a fiendish plot by Anwar to undermine the Malaysian government.

You mean it is possible to 'spin' a motive?

BTW no 'spinning' would be required in Z's case - politics is motive.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 161):
Even the most thorough of investigations can use a second look to see if the investigators have missed anything. Given that they've hit a dead end, it would be wise to check & recheck everything to make sure all the t's are crossed & i's dotted.

You're right. Especially with Malaysia. I have no doubt that Malaysia would not have dotted the i's and crossed the t's the first time - both intentionally and out of plain incompetence.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 162):
"The crew did it" sounds a hell of a lot better than "We've got NFI".

Those following MH370 and the way Malaysia has handled or mishandled MH370 would very quickly catch out some attempted government face saving with a total position change from having "NFI" to blaming the crew after two years and no new information for quite some time.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 166):
You (and Wikipedia) forget to mention that
1. Calloway had a clear-cut motive, a grudge against his employer because he was fired, and he was broke.
2. Calloway did intend to do something spectacular: Crash the plane into Fedex-HQ.

No such things in case of Zaharie Shah

Come on mate, even TheFlyingDisk is acknowledging the existence of possible motive by saying the following:

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 161):
Zaharie's actions can be spinned to portray a fiendish plot by Anwar to undermine the Malaysian government.

The political interests link is there between Z and A. There is a possible motive. Especially after the culmination of events of that evening following the lead up.

Having said that, *if* Z did it, I believe he did so alone and nobody else was aware including A.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 167):
Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 166):
You (and Wikipedia) forget to mention that
1. Calloway had a clear-cut motive, a grudge against his employer because he was fired, and he was broke.
2. Calloway did intend to do something spectacular: Crash the plane into Fedex-HQ.

No such things in case of Zaharie Shah, a respected senior captain and reasonably well off.


1. Zaharie Shah's employeer was MAS. MAS was government owned. I don't know of anyone who hated and detested the Malaysian govt. more than Zaharie. This is not in dispute.
2. Zaharie also intended to do something spectacular. Make a 777 with 238 souls completely vanish.

  

Quoting LandSweetLand (Reply 169):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 158):
I could be wrong, but I think 676EB could be part of the flap fairing itself. The task description refers to an internal zonal inspection of flap support fairing number 7. In which you need extended trailing edge flaps and open access panels 676BB, 676CR/CR, 676DB AND 676GR in order to remove the fairing that is mentioned as 676AB and 676EB in brackets.

Just for the record that was not my quote.

Thank you.
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prebennorholm
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:51 am

Quoting na (Reply 179):
So its now again more than a week, and Boeing hasnt been able to identify wether the wreckage parts discussed about are from a 777 or not? What does them take so long? I mean, I could understand that its difficult to say if its from MH370, but it should be easy for the manufacturer to say wether the parts are from a 777 or not.

There is no hurry. The flapperon proved last year that it crashed in the ocean. Any further debris proves nothing.

The only reason why the case hasn't been closed yet, is that if they find the crash site they may retrieve the FDR and CVR. Further debris doesn't help. It is impossible to know how many thousand miles it has travelled, so it doesn't assist finding the crash site.
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:13 am

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 177):
Actually, it looks to me that there is evidence of formerly attached sea life: the brownish rings that surround the 676EB logo. In any case, it's not a big deal. Gooseneck barnacles do not last long at all once a piece of flotsam washes up on the shore. If you did any serious beachcombing, you would know that the vast majority of random junk that can be found on a random beach is not encrusted with a bunch of barnacles.

I did plenty of serious beachcombing for the first two decades of my life. My family was going to beaches on our boat (typically smaller ones where we'd be the only people there for days or weeks at a time) for about two-thirds of the year. Very little of what I found was that clean and smooth. Most of it showed at least clear signs of where marine life had been attached, if not more. And it also typically showed marks indicating which way up it had predominantly floated, both caused by the sea and sunlight. I see none of that on this piece.
 
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:36 am

I find it strange that until now the latest discovery has not made it into the big news... Havent seen anything so far apart from the photos and this radio station webpage posted above.

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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:25 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 180):
There is no hurry. The flapperon proved last year that it crashed in the ocean. Any further debris proves nothing.

If I was director of the Armchair Accident Investigation Board, I would still encourage people to look for debris, and I would encourage people to report their finding site as accurately as possible. And then use back-track modelling using the usual wind patterns and ocean currents to guesstimate a possible crash location. Such a modelling will not help much, I agree, but it isn't exactly costly.

I want to ask some other questions, just to clear up some things. I don't want to indulge in long discussions about them, because answers to these questions probably live in hiding, in one of the many, many previous threads:
1. The guys and gals at INMARSAT have calculated probable locations for each of the pings. Are these locations only true under the assumption that the plane flew with constant speed and constant heading?
2. Is there reason to believe that navigational equipment (GPS, IRS, radio beacons) went drunk, and the crew was just too confused to fly towards the Asian mainland using only airspeed, dead-reckoning, standby compass or the stars? In the old days of aviation, did pilots get lost over sea?
3. What speaks against a Germanwings scenario? Of course I hate such a scenario, simply because we can't learn from such one (except to do away with the terrorist- and captain-proof doors), but the idea that the FO was suicidal and could easily cover a suicide under Zaharie's opposition towards the government is somewhat intriguing.


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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:43 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 180):
There is no hurry. The flapperon proved last year that it crashed in the ocean. Any further debris proves nothing.

If I was director of the Armchair Accident Investigation Board, I would still encourage people to look for debris, and I would encourage people to report their finding site as accurately as possible. And then use back-track modelling using the usual wind patterns and ocean currents to guesstimate a possible crash location. Such a modelling will not help much, I agree, but it isn't exactly costly.

  

Well said, David.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
I want to ask some other questions, just to clear up some things. I don't want to indulge in long discussions about them, because answers to these questions probably live in hiding, in one of the many, many previous threads:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
1. The guys and gals at INMARSAT have calculated probable locations for each of the pings. Are these locations only true under the assumption that the plane flew with constant speed and constant heading?

They calculated the distance the aircraft was from the satellite at the time of each ping. Then they calculated the likely direction the plane was traveling and therefore where along the entire ping arc the plane likely was. If you try to place the aircraft at a possible point along the arc of the first ping, and then at a point somewhere possible on the arc of the second ping, and then at a point somewhere possible on the arc of the third ping, etc, etc, etc, and keep the plane moving in a Southerly direction, it is possible to vary the locations on each arc with speed and heading changes. I assume that the investigators are working off the assumption that the plane was flying with a constant speed and heading or close to it (possibly with a very long / slow left turn), but it is possible to place the plane on the same ping arcs (at different locations - of course) by varying the speed and even throwing in some loops / race-track type hold patterns. So, to answer your question, the locations on the ping arcs that the investigators are using are underpinned by the assumption that the heading & speed were somewhat constant, but, it is also possible that the plane could have been on the same ping arcs (at different points) at hourly intervals by with speed and heading changes...

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
2. Is there reason to believe that navigational equipment (GPS, IRS, radio beacons) went drunk, and the crew was just too confused to fly towards the Asian mainland using only airspeed, dead-reckoning, standby compass or the stars? In the old days of aviation, did pilots get lost over sea?
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
In the old days of aviation, did pilots get lost over sea?

No.

Here is why:

'Pilot ‘hijacked and crashed’ MH370: expert'

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...y/ac7f68cac07af6e67f1cfa9aedec1321

The Australian, January 12, 2016 12:00AM, by Ean Higgins

Selected / relevant quotes:

""""Malaysian military radar shows the aircraft turned back to Malaysia and flew along the border with Thailand, and over Captain Zaharie’s home island of Penang, before turning south.

Captain Cox, who has served on six major US National Transportation Safety Board investigations, said the pattern showed during the early phases of the flight the aircraft was being flown to avoid attention.

He said MH370 flew right along the boundary of flight information regions, the borders between countries’ airspace.

“MH370 flew precisely over three waypoints that are on the FIR boundary,” Captain Cox said.

“This is significant because it means that each country assumes the airplane is under the other country’s control.

“The fact that the transponder was switched off, the FMS was reprogrammed and the flight path was precisely along the FIR boundary all indicate to me an ­intentional act.”""""


- The route the plane flew looks intentional. It couldn't have flown a better route to escape detection. Also, just at the end of this detection avoiding route, just as the plane entered the path to nowhere, out of all the systems that went offline earlier only the SatCom came back online!

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
3. What speaks against a Germanwings scenario? Of course I hate such a scenario, simply because we can't learn from such one (except to do away with the terrorist- and captain-proof doors), but the idea that the FO was suicidal and could easily cover a suicide under Zaharie's opposition towards the government is somewhat intriguing.

Here is the full content of the above cited article:

''Pilot ‘hijacked and crashed’ MH370: expert''

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...y/ac7f68cac07af6e67f1cfa9aedec1321

""""A leading international aviation expert has added his voice to the growing opinion that Captain ­Zaharie Ahmad Shah hijacked his aircraft and flew the 238 passengers and crew on Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 to a watery grave.

Captain John Cox, a veteran US airline pilot who now runs an aviation safety consultancy, also warned against abandoning the search for the aircraft as is scheduled to occur in June.

“Aviation does not do well with mysteries; MH370 remains a ­mystery,” Captain Cox told The Australian.

Captain Cox’s intervention comes as the Australian Transport Safety Bureau continues to resist the publicly expressed views of other senior airline pilots, including Australian Byron Bailey in The Weekend Australian, that the facts indicate the aircraft was flown by Captain Zaharie the full seven hours until it ditched or ran out of fuel.

While the investigation is ­officially the responsibility of Malaysia, the ATSB, which is guiding the underwater hunt for MH370 in the Southern Ocean, has had to make assumptions about the flight’s final hours to work out the most fruitful area to search.

Its preferred theory is that the pilots became unconscious from hypoxia, or oxygen deprivation, due to aircraft decompression, or that they were otherwise rendered “unresponsive”.

The ATSB bases its theory on data from electronic satellite “handshakes” with the aircraft which suggest it flew in a straight line without apparent pilot intervention in the last five hours.

Airline pilots say this could be simply explained by Captain Zaharie deliberately programming the aircraft’s flight management system to fly that route, while he remained in ultimate control.

“There is insufficient evidence to conclude or exclude the pilot hypoxia theory,” Captain Cox said.

“There is more evidence to support the intentional act by the captain but whether there was hypoxia is undetermined. The most likely theory, in my opinion, is the MH370 (disappearance) was an intentional act by the captain.”

The Boeing 777 disappeared on March 8, 2014, on a flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, with radio contact lost early on and the radar transponder apparently turned off or disabled.

Malaysian military radar shows the aircraft turned back to Malaysia and flew along the border with Thailand, and over Captain Zaharie’s home island of Penang, before turning south.

Captain Cox, who has served on six major US National Transportation Safety Board investigations, said the pattern showed during the early phases of the flight the aircraft was being flown to avoid attention.

He said MH370 flew right along the boundary of flight information regions, the borders between countries’ airspace.

“MH370 flew precisely over three waypoints that are on the FIR boundary,” Captain Cox said.

“This is significant because it means that each country assumes the airplane is under the other country’s control.

“The fact that the transponder was switched off, the FMS was reprogrammed and the flight path was precisely along the FIR boundary all indicate to me an ­intentional act.”

The federal government has said the search by three vessels with sonar would not go beyond June, when the last 40,000sq km of the 120,000sq km “high potential” search zone is complete.""""


- Whether or not it was one of the pilots, MH370 reeks of human intervention...
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:26 pm

And the inaction by the military is probably more connected to simpler problems than a big conspiracy. More likely some general having made a deal with some drug traffickers and told he radar technicians to ignore all nightly contacts that have their transponder disabled. It might have just been a bad tempered officer telling his subordinates to never wake him in case of a false signal and MH370 could have been easily seen as a false signal.
 
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:28 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 185):
And the inaction by the military is probably more connected to simpler problems than a big conspiracy.

It really could be something as simple as this:

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 184):
He said MH370 flew right along the boundary of flight information regions, the borders between countries’ airspace.

“MH370 flew precisely over three waypoints that are on the FIR boundary,” Captain Cox said.

“This is significant because it means that each country assumes the airplane is under the other country’s control.

The inaction of militaries may simply have been due to an assumption the aircraft was being controlled in another FIR. What frustrates me about the fixation on grand conspiracy theories is that it draws attention away from what could be important opportunities for learning. In this case even if 9M-MRO is never found, there is at least one very valuable lesson which can be taken from the event, and that is the need for better communication and coordination between FIRs. If rather than 19 minutes passing between Lumpur Radar handing the flight off and Ho Chi Minh (not sure was it Centre or Radar?) contacting Lumpur Radar enquiring about MAS370's location, there had been communication between the two air traffic control centres such that there would have been an immediate realisation something was amiss, then there would have been much more opportunity to properly track the flight and potentially intercept it to determine what was happening. Likewise, it could also be concluded that there need to be better procedures to ensure positive identification of aircraft flying close to FIR boundaries to ensure they don't fall between the cracks, as it were. Alas, if the focus is on grand conspiracies, these helpful lessons tend to get obscured.

Perhaps we could separate out the conspiracy theories from the factual information about debris discoveries in this thread, and invite those wanting to delve more into those theories to start their own thread?

V/F
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prebennorholm
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:46 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 183):
If I was director of the Armchair Accident Investigation Board, I would still encourage people to look for debris, and I would encourage people to report their finding site as accurately as possible. And then use back-track modelling using the usual wind patterns and ocean currents to guesstimate a possible crash location. Such a modelling will not help much, I agree, but it isn't exactly costly.

Yeah, I see your point. But there is one big problem with backtracking. When debris is found on a deserted beach, then there is no way to know whether it arrived on that beach yesterday or a year ago.

That uncertainty alone makes the search area calculated from backtracking as big as an ocean and hundreds of times larger than the present day search area.

Debris is still interesting. But there is no hurry. There is no reason to scramble a Boeing team or other investigation team.

But maybe in years to come more interesting debris will be found, and present day debris can be part of a puzzle which can tell us something. Therefore no reason to throw it away either.
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:34 pm

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 186):
If rather than 19 minutes passing between Lumpur Radar handing the flight off and Ho Chi Minh (not sure was it Centre or Radar?) contacting Lumpur Radar enquiring about MAS370's location, there had been communication between the two air traffic control centres such that there would have been an immediate realisation something was amiss, then there would have been much more opportunity to properly track the flight and potentially intercept it to determine what was happening

  

The importance of attempted communications between the airline and the aircraft is another lesson learned in the case of MH370.


''Comment: MH370 conspiracy likely goes all the way to the top''

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/...AgvzBG?li=AAgfYrC&ocid=mailsignout

Selected quotes:

""There were attempted radio communications, and there is one unverified report of a mumbling response — possibly from MH370 — but actual ground-to-cockpit satellite phone calls, without using other jets as intermediaries, are inexplicably few.""

""The seeming indifference of Malaysia Airlines and the KL authorities to the disappearance on ATC screens of an airliner with 239 people onboard is perplexing to say the least. In the words of a major airline’s emergency responders, “we would have hit all the buttons until our fingertips bled”.""

""Had there been repeated, persistent sat phone calls made, even the act of their ringing out unanswered would have provided more detailed clues as to the direction and potential location of MH370 through the fraught Doppler shift analysis that was to conclude that for much of the remaining flight the 777 flew southerly, away from the trajectory it was taking when said to be last seen on military radar off the coast of southern Thailand.""[/quote]


- The lack of attempted sat phone calls by MH to the aircraft is puzzling itself. If only MH made repeated & persistent sat phone calls, even if unanswered, investigators might have more data to help narrow down the location.
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:29 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 179):
Just for the record that was not my quote.


Apologies. I must have clicked the wrong quick quote button.

[Edited 2016-03-12 16:37:35]
 
oxymorph
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:20 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 190):
- The lack of attempted sat phone calls by MH to the aircraft is puzzling itself. If only MH made repeated & persistent sat phone calls, even if unanswered, investigators might have more data to help narrow down the location.

  

Quoting UALWN (Reply 187):
Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 149):
IF Zaharie had maliciously intended to murder 238 people to make a statement against the government, his connection to Anwar would give the Malaysian government a bat to pummel Anwar & his cronies into the ground once and for all thus further STRENGTHENING THEIR POWER! I

This is obvious. It defies reason that you can't understand it.


What is obvious is your complete lack of understanding when it comes to the complexity and combustable nature of the very polarized domestic Malaysian political situation.

Accusing Zaharie, whether guilty or not, with proof or without, would have been a surefire way to stir the mother of all hornets nests. It still may come to this. LOL.

I can't do your thinking for you.

        
 
UALWN
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:20 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 190):
What is obvious is your complete lack of understanding when it comes to the complexity and combustable nature of the very polarized domestic Malaysian political situation.

Right, while you understand it well better than TheFlyingDisk, who happens to live there. Have you even been in Malaysia at all? I have. Multiple times. Recently. For business and for pleasure.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 190):
Accusing Zaharie, whether guilty or not, with proof or without, would have been a surefire way to stir the mother of all hornets nests.

Yeah, sure. Accusing him with proof would have helped enormously the opposition. Sure.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 190):
I can't do your thinking for you.

Thanks God.
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CaliAtenza
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:34 pm

This question has probably already been answered in the bazillion threads we have had on this matter, but wouldn't the IFE moving map let the passengers know that the plane was off course? I mean, I know the turn happened at the time when most passengers would have been sleeping but I'm sure someone must have woken up at some time when they realized it was long past arrival time in Beijing. Are we to assume that killing all the systems except the satcom would also disable the IFE moving map?

[Edited 2016-03-13 12:35:59]
 
oxymorph
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 192):
This question has probably already been answered in the bazillion threads we have had on this matter, but wouldn't the IFE moving map let the passengers know that the plane was off course? I mean, I know the turn happened at the time when most passengers would have been sleeping but I'm sure someone must have woken up at some time when they realized it was long past arrival time in Beijing. Are we to assume that killing all the systems except the satcom would also disable the IFE moving map?

Isolating the left a/c bus would also disable IFE. If you are willing to believe that Z acted alone (which is pretty obvious unless you care to indulge in the ludicrous 'grander' conspiracy theories or the equally absurd mechanical accident fire somewhere toxic fumes somewhere else hypoxia blah blah blah bs) then it seems quite likely that he murdered the pax near IGARI, after locking Fariq out. There were early reports of a zoom climb to near FL450, which were later 'denied'. The survivability time at this alt is 15-40 seconds. Just saying.

Also, no pax electronic were ever heard from again. No pings on cell towers, nada. Except, the co-pilot Mr. Hamid who's phone reportedly pinged a cell tower near Penang. This has remained unconfirmed. Shocker.

[Edited 2016-03-13 13:19:58]
 
UALWN
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:48 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 193):
which is pretty obvious unless you care to indulge in the ludicrous 'grander' conspiracy theories or the equally absurd mechanical accident fire somewhere toxic fumes somewhere else hypoxia blah blah blah bs

So the man who ridicules conspiracy theories then goes on to write the following, in the same post:

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 193):
There were early reports of a zoom climb to near FL450, which were later 'denied'.
Quoting oxymorph (Reply 193):
Except, the co-pilot Mr. Hamid who's phone reportedly pinged a cell tower near Penang. This has remained unconfirmed. Shocker.

No further comments are needed.
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CaliAtenza
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:14 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 193):
There were early reports of a zoom climb to near FL450, which were later

Was that "zoom climb" ever confirmed? I remember hearing about it as well, but from what I remember, it was tossed around by the various parties but never confirmed.
 
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:32 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 192):
This question has probably already been answered in the bazillion threads we have had on this matter, but wouldn't the IFE moving map let the passengers know that the plane was off course?

Not if the IFE was already disabled or the passengers were already dead before the turn.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 193):
it seems quite likely that he murdered the pax near IGARI, after locking Fariq out.

IIRC Fariq handled all radio / ATC communications whilst the plane was on the ground and then Z handled all radio / ATC communications after takeoff. Basically, there is no proof that Fariq was alive at any time after his last verbal to ATC. Everything could have been in place well before IGARI...

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 195):
Quoting oxymorph (Reply 193):
There were early reports of a zoom climb to near FL450, which were later

Was that "zoom climb" ever confirmed?

No.

But whether the zoom climb happened or not, the pax would have easily been taken out just by depressurizing the cabin.
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CaliAtenza
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:12 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 196):

IIRC Fariq handled all radio / ATC communications whilst the plane was on the ground and then Z handled all radio / ATC communications after takeoff. Basically, there is no proof that Fariq was alive at any time after his last verbal to ATC. Everything could have been in place well before IGARI...


What about that supposed phone call from Fariq's phone? Are we to speculate that Zahari made that phone call on purpose to throw off investigators?

Also, I know the FBI didn't find anything on the flight sim in Zahari's home but wouldn't this guy have practiced something like this? I'm sure they would have recovered something from those hard drives.....
 
oxymorph
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:29 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 196):
IIRC Fariq handled all radio / ATC communications whilst the plane was on the ground and then Z handled all radio / ATC communications after takeoff. Basically, there is no proof that Fariq was alive at any time after his last verbal to ATC. Everything could have been in place well before IGARI...

Quite correct. IMO even likely. The redundant FL350 at 17:07?? Put your thinking cap on. Or O2 mask and...check that all is working properly? Dunno.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 197):
What about that supposed phone call from Fariq's phone? Are we to speculate that Zahari made that phone call on purpose to throw off investigators?

Unlikely. I suspect Zaharie had a plate to full to bother with a rather trivial misdirection (the idea the F did this is laughably absurd. People just like to conflate and confuse for their own lame agendas. Furthermore, the Malays would have NEVER thought F, WHEN Z was the PIC on the eve of Anwar).

But who knows? The conventional thinking is that F was able to access an O2 tank and outlast the other pax, or that he knew it was game on almost immediately and managed to squeeze a call off to his mother (this was the reported intended recipient) just in time.
 
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RE: News: Possible MH370 Part Found Near Mozambique

Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:03 am

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 118):
@CALTEC: I see what you mean. When you look at the one picture of Mssr. Begue where he is comparing the part to a photo printed on paper, the paper is quite white compared to the part. Also note that the color of the blue on the part is the same as the color on the printed paper.

  

Quoting gzm (Reply 120):
Are you sure that the skin of the tail is made of honeycomb material? I think it is thin aluminum...
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 128):
That manual I linked to above states that the core material for the horizontal stabilizer skin is all aluminum honeycomb.

That is only part of the manual. The leading edge, IIRC, is aluminum honeycomb sandwiched between aluminum sheets. The panels just behind the leading edge are honeycomb, composite IIRC, between aluminum sheets. The main box of the Horizontal Stab is carbon reinforced composite (plastic) structure which also is the skin.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 128):
Evidently, the aluminum is coated with a similar sort of phenolic coating?

Should be aluminum or a composite honeycomb. Don't believe aluminum would be covered with phenolic material for a honeycomb panel/skin.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 124):
Here's a structural repair manual for the "HORIZONTAL STABILIZER UPPER FORWARD TORQUE BOX PANEL SKIN". It's pretty detailed down to the types of epoxy used.

That is not the whole manual on the Horiz Stab, and it identifies material used in the different areas of the Horz Stab and how to repair them.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 128):
That manual I linked to above states that the core material for the horizontal stabilizer skin is all aluminum honeycomb.

Most of the Horz Stab skin area is carbon reinforced plastic/composite. Honeycomb is used in the leading edge and trailing edge and the panels.
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