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rotating14
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QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:18 pm

QR released the pilots from the September 2015 accident.


http://dohanews.co/report-qatar-airw...nvolved-in-miami-takeoff-incident/

Quote:
Qatar Airways has apparently sacked the pilots responsible for substantially damaging a Boeing 777 when it struck a set of runway lights during takeoff from Miami in September.

A preliminary investigation determined that the aircraft entered the runway at an incorrect intersection, rather than using its full length. This meant the runway was too short for the heavily loaded plane to safely take off.

As a result, the aircraft only became airborne at the very end of the runway
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:21 pm

Fair enough. Seems like gross negligence.
 
D L X
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:28 pm

Had they returned to MIA instead of continuing to Doha would they still have been sacked?
 
ArdWar
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:30 pm

Uhh, will/is there any official investigation report on the accident?

Still wondering if the flightcrew indeed aware of the accident and the extent of the damage suffered.

[Edited 2016-03-03 04:31:52]
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yowza
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Out of curiosity how much down time are QR crews given on the ground between ULH flights? There are websites where pilots for certain GCC carriers are griping about being dangerously overworked. Is it as bad as some say or is that a whiny but loud minority coming through?

YOWza
 
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 4):
Out of curiosity how much down time are QR crews given on the ground between ULH flights? There are websites where pilots for certain GCC carriers are griping about being dangerously overworked. Is it as bad as some say or is that a whiny but loud minority coming through?

A vast majority of the layovers are 24-30 hours (including transit to and from hotel)...I'll leave you to your own conclusion if 24 hours is enough after a ULH.
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COSPN
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:23 pm

Gotta use the whole runway sorry they both deserve to be fired
 
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:00 pm

AAB is in denial about the seriousness of the MIA incident. As a CEO of a global airline, his comments are reckless and reflect the poor leadership and judgement of the top brass at QR.

Mr Al Baker on Thursday reiterated "runway overruns happen very often in airports". But he said passengers could rest assured the Miami incident was the "first and last" time it would happen at his airline. "At no time was there any harm or any major safety issue for the aircraft and its passengers," he said, emphasising the plane landed safely.
 
N1120A
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:43 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 6):
Gotta use the whole runway sorry they both deserve to be fired

Well, if this had been JFK and they were using 13R/31L, they could have easily done an intersection takeoff and been fine. One shouldn't speak so generally about such a situation. Also, a different plane going to a different place would have had no issue with that intersection takeoff.

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):

Had they returned to MIA instead of continuing to Doha would they still have been sacked?

You wonder, though there was some damage to the aircraft. I'd imagine returning to MIA would have received a bit less coverage.
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migair54
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:47 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
Had they returned to MIA instead of continuing to Doha would they still have been sacked?

Maybe even before, because in MIA QR could have not cover up and hide like they have done in DOH.

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 7):
AAB is in denial about the seriousness of the MIA incident. As a CEO of a global airline, his comments are reckless and reflect the poor leadership and judgement of the top brass at QR.

I said the same long time ago, one of the most stupid comments I have heard from him, safety is foremost in every single airline and listening the CEO of such a big airline doing that comment of a near accident was very socking.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 5):
A vast majority of the layovers are 24-30 hours (including transit to and from hotel)...I'll leave you to your own conclusion if 24 hours is enough after a ULH.
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 1):
Fair enough. Seems like gross negligence.

It is a negligence but more factors have to be considered during the investigation. maybe that negligence was created by other factors.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 5):
A vast majority of the layovers are 24-30 hours (including transit to and from hotel)...I'll leave you to your own conclusion if 24 hours is enough after a ULH.

I am not sure if it's enough but it seems to be because most of the ULH nowadays are like that, i'm not sure how does Qantas do with some of the very long flights they operate like DFW, CX, DL and others.
 
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:51 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 9):
I am not sure if it's enough but it seems to be because most of the ULH nowadays are like that, i'm not sure how does Qantas do with some of the very long flights they operate like DFW, CX, DL and others.

I'll give you a hint...QF, CX, DL ULH layovers are longer  
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longhauler
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:59 pm

This incident brought about a million to one long shot "gotcha" in the performance software.

The pilots thought that Temporary performance numbers T1, referred to intersection T1. It is a very very subtle entry difference ... 09/T1 as opposed to 09#T1. One would have to go long and hard worldwide to find another example where an intersection take-off was possible for such a long flight, let alone one from an actual intersection T1 at the exact same time a set of Temporary Take-off figures were published ... get this, as T1.

In fact, where I fly, as a result of this incident we were issued a warning that it is possible. (Even though our Triples rarely visit MIA).

So were they fired for making the mistake ... or were they fired for flying all the way to DOH with possible structural damage?
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CrimsonNL
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:04 pm

Interesting, I though Mr. AAB had claimed this was not a serious incident, in fact, something that happens all the time?

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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:07 pm

Were the relief pilots fired as well? It seems they may have been.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
You wonder, though there was some damage to the aircraft. I'd imagine returning to MIA would have received a bit less coverage.

I'm no pilot of course, but hearing the discussion here on WHY the pilots thought they could do an intersection takeoff, it seems like it was a mistake caused in part by the situation. (Punctuation! Wow.) A potentially deadly one, but crisis averted, learn from it, fix the stimuli, and don't repeat it.

I feel like (from my airline CEO-hat perspective) the real error was @#$ing continuing to Doha, knowing that you rotated after leaving the runway. Instead of thinking "wow, we aren't dead! I guess we continue to Doha," the proper course of action was to assess the situation, erring on a return to MIA. That failure was egregious, and having just missed killing everyone on takeoff, that decision further emperiled everyone onboard with the possibility of catastrophic decompression over the ocean.

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 7):
AAB is in denial about the seriousness of the MIA incident. As a CEO of a global airline, his comments are reckless and reflect the poor leadership and judgement of the top brass at QR.

Mr Al Baker on Thursday reiterated "runway overruns happen very often in airports". But he said passengers could rest assured the Miami incident was the "first and last" time it would happen at his airline. "At no time was there any harm or any major safety issue for the aircraft and its passengers," he said, emphasising the plane landed safely.

To be totally fair, he made these statements quite a while ago. Here's what he said more recently, according to the OP's article:


“We will not accept any kind of lapses by pilots because they have hundreds of passengers whom they risked,” he was quoted as saying to reporters while marking the carrier’s inaugural Doha-Sydney flight.

“(The pilot flying) was not asked to leave because he did anything by putting passengers at risk. What he did was he violated the company regulations on takeoff distance required by an aircraft, especially with the weight he was carrying on that aircraft.”
 
Tommy525
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:09 pm

What airline executives say in public and what actually happens could be two different things.
 
D L X
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:13 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
This incident brought about a million to one long shot "gotcha"

Well, it's the million-to-one long shots that bring down planes.

Actually, it may even be rarer than that. If it's a million to one, then we should expect it every million flights to happen once. I know it's just a turn of phrase in English, but it's worth pointing that out.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
So were they fired for making the mistake ... or were they fired for flying all the way to DOH with possible structural damage?

   That was the genesis of my question.
 
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:17 pm

Quoting Tommy525 (Reply 14):
What airline executives say in public and what actually happens could be two different things.

And that brings about another concept in airline public relations.

The public does NOT want to hear that a bizarre set of circumstances and coincedences caused a potential problem. The public wants to hear that one man made a mistake and that man is now gone ... public faith restored.

Hopefully internally, QR acknowledged what actually happened. Because to assume it was one man's error leads the possibility it can happen again. But to assume it was a failure in procedures ensures it doesn't happen again, as procedures would be changed.

But ... if you acknowledge it was a procedural error, then you can't fire the crew ... and restore public faith. It's a tough circle!
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audian
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:22 pm

I am curious about "What's Next for those 4 pilots?"

Would this incident will hinder their future opportunities?
 
MKEdude
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:28 pm

A lot of noise is made regarding employment conditions at all the big middle eastern carriers, but I don't think they'll be facing any blowback over this one. This was a pretty serious screw-up and the pilots involved deserve to lose their careers over this.

What I don't understand is why are the relief pilots also getting canned? I don't see what they had to do with this.
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:42 pm

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 18):
A lot of noise is made regarding employment conditions at all the big middle eastern carriers, but I don't think they'll be facing any blowback over this one.

In my opinion, this is an excellent example of poorer working conditions in lesser developed nations.

In most countries, with reasonable labour laws the question would not have been "Did they make a mistake?" as clearly they did ... the question would be "Did they make a mistake, that under similar conditions, most people would have made?"

And that is where the grey area lies. QR is not publicly saying why the aircrew were fired. Looking at the two questions above, was the "mistake" the performance calculation error, or was the "mistake" flying 15 hours with a hole in your tail? You will get two answers in my opinion.

I can see how the perfomance error was made, and because warnings have been made ... it can happen. I can not see flying all that way with possible structural damage.
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:47 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
It is a very very subtle entry difference ... 09/T1 as opposed to 09#T1. One would have to go long and hard worldwide to find another example where an intersection take-off was possible

So how many of these micro-details are pilots supposed to have committed to memory? I'm thinking also of Asiana at SFO where the crew thought the A/T ws supposed to be taking care of things but they were actually in a mode where it wasn't; and TAM at Cogonhas where the pilot assumed he didn't have to place a throttle in idle on the A320 because the reverser for that engine was inop.
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D L X
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:47 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
QR is not publicly saying why the aircrew were fired.

Actually, AAB said: “We will not accept any kind of lapses by pilots because they have hundreds of passengers whom they risked,” he was quoted as saying to reporters while marking the carrier’s inaugural Doha-Sydney flight.

“(The pilot flying) was not asked to leave because he did anything by putting passengers at risk. What he did was he violated the company regulations on takeoff distance required by an aircraft, especially with the weight he was carrying on that aircraft.”
 
Armodeen
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:50 pm

I bet BA didn't fire the crew that smashed up the 747 in JNB?

(I stand to be corrected)
 
D L X
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:57 pm

Quoting Armodeen (Reply 22):
I bet BA didn't fire the crew that smashed up the 747 in JNB?

They also didn't fly it to LHR anyway.
 
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 18):
What I don't understand is why are the relief pilots also getting canned? I don't see what they had to do with this.

Probably being seen as guilty by association in AAB's eyes. I suspect the CVR would reveal how much the flight crew knew and why they continued the flight.
 
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longhauler
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:06 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 21):

Yes, it looks like they were fired for making the performance calculation errors.

But, when the NTSB is investigating this, that would be their answer as well. They only deal in fact, and the fact was the reason for hitting the other end of the runway was the perfomance calculation error. Then, later in the probable cause would be the extenuating circumstances, explaining how it happened.

Quoting hivue (Reply 20):
So how many of these micro-details are pilots supposed to have committed to memory?

When airlines devise SOPs/procedures they are usually reviewed for months before being submitted. Then the governing body approves them, after they have reviewed them. It is very rare that actual mistakes result.

But ... sometimes they do. Safety systems at developed airlines take that mistake and make sure the SOP/procedure is changed after reviewing how it happened. Remember ... because it did happen, it can happen!

When I looked at the initial review of this incident 6 months ago, I had a huge forehead slap. "What are the effing odds, intersection T1 at the exact same time you have Temp numbers also called T1???" Some days the Swiss Cheese just lines up.

The other examples you cite, Asiana and TAM ... you have to ask, like I asked above, "would that mistake have been made by anyone?" That is left up to anyone's interpretation, I won't relay my own opinions.
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gzm
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:08 pm

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 18):
Quote:
What I don't understand is why are the relief pilots also getting canned? I don't see what they had to do with this

Well, neither do I but in Greece we have a saying if I may translate it: "Dry sticks and tender shoots burn together."
 
ual777
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 20):
o how many of these micro-details are pilots supposed to have committed to memory? I'm thinking also of Asiana at SFO where the crew thought the A/T ws supposed to be taking care of things but they were actually in a mode where it wasn't; and TAM at Cogonhas where the pilot assumed he didn't have to place a throttle in idle on the A320 because the reverser for that engine was inop.

In the pilot world, each airplane has what we call "gotchas" and entering the T/O data as they did is one of them. That mistake is fairly easy to do, but the troubling part to me is why take an intersection when you don't have to? We are often asked to do it and usually decline for a few reasons. 1: why take less runway in a heavy aircraft? 2: we didn't brief it. 3: we have to resend T/O data and the intersection T/O could lead to a different engine out procedure.

All these things lead to rushing and rushing causes mistakes. The other part that has me scratching my head is that I assume all 4 pilots were upfront for T/O. Why didn't any of the FOs raise the flag and say they were uncomfortable with it? I just pulled up Miami and looked at the intersection (as I write this). Just by looking at it, they willingly gave up about 4,000 feet of available pavement and I can't think of any justifiable reason why. 500 feet, fine. 4,000? I'm good thanks.

I had an instructor at my first airline who told me during a recurrent checkride, "don't ever do or go along with anything that you can't defend in a meeting if you f*** it up." Sage advice.
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longhauler
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:33 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 27):
Just by looking at it, they willingly gave up about 4,000 feet of available pavement and I can't think of any justifiable reason why. 500 feet, fine. 4,000? I'm good thanks.

I understand your query, but as you know, there are a lot of runways around the world where it is normal practise to use an intersection take-off. T10 at ORD or 17L/35R at YYC for example.

Another thing to consider, using very sophisticated performance software results in some odd quirks. For example, as Vr and V2 are flying speeds, they are usualy predicated on weight so they likely wouldn't change. V1 often doesn't change as well (on long runways with dry surface conditions). So what does change? Usually the thrust gets a greater de-rate. So ... what happens? ... when the Dunlops leave the earth, you are in exactly the same place, at the same speed whether you did the intersection or not ... you just used less thrust to get there!

There are exceptions to this, of course. The most common would be obstacles or when the aircraft is very light and you are already at the maximum de-rate.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 27):
1: why take less runway in a heavy aircraft? 2: we didn't brief it. 3: we have to resend T/O data and the intersection T/O could lead to a different engine out procedure

Is this what happened? As what you say is correct, if it wasn't planned then the risks do not outweight the benefits!

Quoting ual777 (Reply 27):
I had an instructor at my first airline who told me during a recurrent checkride, "don't ever do or go along with anything that you can't defend in a meeting if you f*** it up.

What I say when people ask ... "why?" ... is, "It's just one less question to answer at the inquest".
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hivue
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:35 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 25):
Quoting ual777 (Reply 27):

Thanks for the informative replies. So could it be a valid accusation to say that the crew let the airplane's automation handle situational awareness?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
anjin
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:53 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 4):

Its a 16-17 hour flight, de plane and the joys of Miami immigration and customs . 24hr layover therefore whittled down and departing MIA at around 0200 local Doha time. Any unionised airline or one with a functioning fatigue system would be a48hr layover. Enough said
 
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:56 pm

How long was the aircraft out of service?
Any recent pics of her in the DB?



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Skyguy
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:23 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 7):
AAB is in denial about the seriousness of the MIA incident. As a CEO of a global airline, his comments are reckless and reflect the poor leadership and judgement of the top brass at QR.

The Donald Trump of the aviation business.
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eielef
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:06 pm

What about the MIA Control Tower? Isn't there a ground control that follows each plane across all the taxiways, appron and even the Runways?
We've seen the worse accident on history (the one in Tenerife) because of two planes in the same runway at the same time, but also we've seen similar scenarios in LIN or LAX, and even worse as planes landing at closed runways, or taking off from runways which are taxiways, or which are not complete, or so. The ATC should have warned them and even forbid them to take off, if they were not in the safe place to take off.
Which RWY were they using???
 
Mir
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:37 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 5):
A vast majority of the layovers are 24-30 hours (including transit to and from hotel)...I'll leave you to your own conclusion if 24 hours is enough after a ULH.

Or is it too much? 16 hours works very well - a couple of hours to get to the hotel and wind down, eat something, etc., and then you sleep for 8 or 10 hours, wake up, have a few extra hours to kill, and then you fly the next flight well rested. As the layover gets longer, the time between waking up and having to fly gets longer, increasing the chances that you'd have been up for some time by the time departure rolls around. As the layover gets even longer, then it starts to work well again.

A 24 hour layover amounts to working the late shift after working the early shift, and that can cause fatigue issues.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
To be totally fair, he made these statements quite a while ago.

To be totally fair, there's no appropriate time to say "overruns happen all the time".

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
“(The pilot flying) was not asked to leave because he did anything by putting passengers at risk. What he did was he violated the company regulations on takeoff distance required by an aircraft, especially with the weight he was carrying on that aircraft.”

So the pilots are being fired for making an error that is completely understandable and that could happen to lots of people when under a certain amount of stress. Great safety culture that shows.  

If they'd been fired for continuing to Doha (assuming they had reason to suspect damage), I'd be more understanding.

-Mir
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jeffrey1970
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:01 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 5):
A vast majority of the layovers are 24-30 hours (including transit to and from hotel)...I'll leave you to your own conclusion if 24 hours is enough after a ULH.

I think they should be given 48 hours rest not including travel time from the airport to the hotel.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Quoting jeffrey1970 (Reply 35):
I think they should be given 48 hours rest not including travel time from the airport to the hotel.

Nice gesture but it would play havoc with scheduling. If it is daily service you would have to have eight pilots laying over at any one time not to mention double the hotel costs and per diem.

Also take into consideration that each pilot gets a nice long break in a warm bunk for a good part of the flight.
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ual777
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:24 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 29):

Thanks for the informative replies. So could it be a valid accusation to say that the crew let the airplane's automation handle situational awareness?

Sort of. Airliners typically get takeoff data by ACARS messaging. You enter the runway (and intersection if applicable), runway condition, and weight. It comes back with your V speeds and single engine T/O procedure (if it isn't standard). From what I gathered above, they entered the incorrect intersection into the ACARS box so it spit back "good numbers" and they took it.

Technology is quirky. If they were sending for new numbers while taxiing, its pretty easy to make a mistake like this. I was once in Newark getting takeoff data but the ACARS system thought we were in Boston. Both have a runway 22R. When it spat out the numbers, they looked good, but upon close examination we saw it said Boston. If it had been in an area with mountainous terrain and you can an engine, the airport likely has a special profile for avoiding "Cumulo Granites" (mountains). If your takeoff data doesn't reflect the procedure, and its at night, you simply wont have the available thrust to climb out of trouble.

Another interesting fact is that your single engine procedure can change depending on the intersection of the SAME runway. Without getting into too much detail, imagine a 3D cone projecting off of the starting point of the takeoff roll. it expands vertically and horizontally the further down the runway you go. any terrain, high structures, or prohibited areas that fall within this cone could trigger a special engine out procedure. Thus starting the roll further down the runway could put something in that cone that wouldn't be there with a full length takeoff and vice versa. Not usually an issue but its another "gotcha" that can sneak up on you if you get too complacent.

Expanding further on what Longhauler said, we almost always do de-rated take offs. It saves wear and tear on the engines. I would imagine (and judging from a post above was correct) that 7,800 feet of available runway simply isn't enough for a 777-300ER...especially if its hot. If it can do it, it will certainly be a "full blow" (max thrust) takeoff or close to it.

That being said, intersection departures are not unheard of. Newark typically uses 22R at W, O'hare uses 28R(?) at T10, etc. I have flown in and out of MIA a few times and don't recall using an intersection but that was a while ago.

In this case, I looked at the airport charts when i made my earlier post and i looked for the intersection, looked at the available runway, and my gut reaction was "no" just based on ballpark numbers.

The plane is obviously heavy. Why risk a high speed abort on less available runway? Why re-brief and increase your workload (if offered during the taxi out), Why lower the safety margin at all? Someone in that cockpit should have spoken up and they are pretty lucky they aren't all dead.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9122
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:57 pm

Is there any real advantage in not starting your roll close to the start of the available runway.
 
AVFCdownunder
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:12 am

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:15 pm

A few points I noticed in this article -

- it does begin with the stating the pilots responsible were "apparently" sacked, although further down the comments attributed to AAB do sound like they have gone.

- whilst it states "pilots" in plural, it doesn't appear to clarify that all four were sacked. I am curious whether all four would be in the cockpit for take-off. It may be the case that a junior FO didn't get involved until a number of hours into the flight, when decisions had already been made. That person could hardly be accountable. Wasn't it reflected in the Asiana SFO report that junior pilots didn't have the balls to point out to the captain that they were in the wrong and needed to do something about it? Not sure if this is a sackable matter or more of a review of the cultural make-up of the whole airline.

- it seems that the sackings have taken place prior to the release of the final report.

- comments like "first and last time" are probably not helpful. It is a pressurised situation at the best of times, without the knowledge that an error of significance is likely to end your career. I seem to recall other topics on here, discussing pilots involved in major incidents that are still flying.

- curious what the pilot's union in Qatar has to say about this, is there even such a thing?? Would also be curious whether the pilots in question are Qatari nationals and what sort of protection foreigners are afforded.

- of course, in the interests of objectivity, I fully accept that it was not me or my loved ones that were flown half way across the world with a damaged fuselage and the actions of QR may in actual fact be entirely reasonable.
 
ual777
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:21 pm

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 39):

- whilst it states "pilots" in plural, it doesn't appear to clarify that all four were sacked. I am curious whether all four would be in the cockpit for take-off. It may be the case that a junior FO didn't get involved until a number of hours into the flight, when decisions had already been made. That person could hardly be accountable. Wasn't it reflected in the Asiana SFO report that junior pilots didn't have the balls to point out to the captain that they were in the wrong and needed to do something about it? Not sure if this is a sackable matter or more of a review of the cultural make-up of the whole airline.

Relief pilots are typically in the cockpit for takeoff.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 426
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:31 pm

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 39):
- curious what the pilot's union in Qatar has to say about this, is there even such a thing?? Would also be curious whether the pilots in question are Qatari nationals and what sort of protection foreigners are afforded.

I believe unions are outlawed in Qatar.
 
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AirPacific747
Posts: 9691
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:40 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 38):
Is there any real advantage in not starting your roll close to the start of the available runway.

Yes, time saving exercise.

Especially in an airport like Heathrow if you're in a 737 / A320, you might be able to jump ahead several heavies as it's more efficient rather than having to wait 2 or 3 minutes before takeoff clearance behind a heavy jet due to wake turbulence.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:53 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 5):

A vast majority of the layovers are 24-30 hours (including transit to and from hotel)...I'll leave you to your own conclusion if 24 hours is enough after a ULH.

Exactly, that is not enough time to rest and get your body clock reset for the next back of the clock flight.

Quoting Tommy525 (Reply 14):
What airline executives say in public and what actually happens could be two different things.

Downplaying what could have been a tragic accident killing hundreds as no big deal does not put the airline, and the larger than life executive in good light. There were many a.netters with Qatari flags on their names who were also repeating the same belief, that this was a non event.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2433
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RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:22 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 27):

I had an instructor at my first airline who told me during a recurrent checkride, "don't ever do or go along with anything that you can't defend in a meeting if you f*** it up." Sage advice.

At our company, the phrase is "How is this going to look on the insurance report?"
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AVFCdownunder
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:12 am

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:51 pm

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 41):
I believe unions are outlawed in Qatar.

I thought that might be the case.
 
sq_ek_freak
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 4:48 pm

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:40 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 34):
Or is it too much? 16 hours works very well - a couple of hours to get to the hotel and wind down, eat something, etc., and then you sleep for 8 or 10 hours, wake up, have a few extra hours to kill, and then you fly the next flight well rested. As the layover gets longer, the time between waking up and having to fly gets longer, increasing the chances that you'd have been up for some time by the time departure rolls around. As the layover gets even longer, then it starts to work well again.

I understand what you're saying but I'd err on the longer side rather than the shorter option. I don't think 16 hours would be legal anyway, and would be an issue with scheduling since the crew usually operate the next flight the day after so you're left with 24-30 hours or the next option, 48-52 hours.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 43):
Exactly, that is not enough time to rest and get your body clock reset for the next back of the clock flight.

I agree. I've heard horror stories from QR crew of some of their layover rules and conditions. The ME3 all work their crew quite hard but QR seemed to be the worst by some distance.
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thegman
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:30 am

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:54 am

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 5):
A vast majority of the layovers are 24-30 hours (including transit to and from hotel)...I'll leave you to your own conclusion if 24 hours is enough after a ULH.

And what do they do when they get home? Because the carrier work rules are a lot better than some.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6419
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:03 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 29):
So could it be a valid accusation to say that the crew let the airplane's automation handle situational awareness?

My own opinion in this case, is no ... it is not a function of automation. It has been a very long time since (most) airlines did performance calculations manually. Today it is an ACARS function, or in this case it is a performance computer in an EFB. (Electronic Flight Bag). The automation worked perfectly, the numbers they got was for full length, with Temporary Perfomance Figures ... 1 ... or T1.

Situational awareness also seemed spot on. They knew they were using intersection T1, so when they saw numbers "09#T1" they went for it.

Other than flying 15 hours with structural damage, I have to think it could have happened to a lot of people.

Quoting eielef (Reply 33):
What about the MIA Control Tower? Isn't there a ground control that follows each plane across all the taxiways, appron and even the Runways?

Ground Control (who is watching you) would likely ask your intersection preference if full length is not always used. This is for their planning. They would assume that the aircrew would not take an intersection take-off with any risk, nor would they question their decision to do so.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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xms3200
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:13 am

RE: QR Pilots Fired Over Miami Runway Accident

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:08 am

Too bad, so sad.......I am sure both the Captain and F/O will pay attention to what they are doing next time at whatever airline that happens to hire them....

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