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shaq
Topic Author
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:22 am

Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:35 pm

Here is the link
http://www.impulsonegocios.com/conte...dos/2016/03/03/Editorial_39492.php
It seems that Argentinian Aviation is getting liberalized with the new Argentinian Govt
Studying hard, for flying right!
 
dcajet
Posts: 4816
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:12 am

Indeed, it is the intention of the new government to liberalize aviation in Argentina, and making AR self sufficient in 4 years. CM asked for the PTY-ROS authority around 4 weeks ago and it's already been granted,. Under the Kirchners requests like this one would sleep for years in some obscure bureaucrat's desk, ignored.

FlCMight is 4x week, with 738 and leaves PTY at 3:20 pm on Sun, Mon, Wed and Fri and arrives ROS at 12:07 am the next day, leaving back for PTY at 1:20 am and arriving at PTY at 6:28 am.

Good times for ROS as LAN also just announced daily A319 service to its LIM hub.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3100
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RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:25 am

The Government of Argentina has historically demonstrated a lot of protectionism against foreign carriers operating in secondary cities.
For example, some years ago the former TACA tried unsuccessfully to fly the LIM-MDZ segment.
Good luck to CM PTY-ROS 4x weekly !

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:55 am

I'm pro-liberalization and I'm very satisfied with the measures that the Argentinian is taking. There is only one problem. They finally will learn learn how the AEP-EZE separation affects the competitiveness of long-haul operations by Argentinian carriers.
 
eielef
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RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:40 pm

Well, in CGH you can connect only domestic flights, most of them short flights, and is mostly for those flying from Sao Paulo to other cities not far away. Same with SDU.
AEP has both international and domestic, but is restricted to flights to Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Brazil and Uruguay.
EZE has mostly international flights (also to neighbouring countries) but few domestic destinations.
So if someone from in-land Argentina want's to connect in Buenos Aires (myself, e.g.), needs to take a 2(+) hours long bus ride from one airport to the other. If connecting with AR, is free of charge.
Having been to often in Buenos Aires, mayor delays are often, because of some strikes blocking a road, or an accident, or whatever, so is every travel agent suggestion to fly one day in advance to Buenos Aires, spend the night there (paying a hotel, or visiting someone), and the following day going to EZE with at least 4 hours in advance for eventual traffic jams. Besides buses and taxis, there is no other way to get to EZE (nor is any other to go to AEP as well).
Myself, it often takes me more time going from my city (TUC) to EZE (changing airports, waiting a night in BUE), than flying via anywhere to Moscow.
And the trip is expensive, and you have to carry your luggage at all times.
So having two airports, far away from each other, with pretty bad connections, is a big disadvantage.
It would be an interesting idea, and this happened shortly in 2007 when RWY 13/31 was repaved (in AEP) to have all flights from AR to EZE. I sent my luggage direct to FCO (from TUC) and had a 90 minutes connection going from one gate, through customs and passport control, to the international gates (then Terminal A, now it would be Terminal C)
 
PATristar
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RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:23 pm

Quoting tavong (Reply 4):
More or less the same GRU-CGH in Sao Paulo. Or is there any fundamental difference?

CGH is only domestic, and diferente form the relations EZE - AEP, GRU has lots of domestic flights (further more destinations) than CGH, is very rare to a person who is arriving form a international flight to be forced to make connection at CGH like eielef explained related to Buenos Aires.
 
winGl3t
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:52 pm

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:35 pm

Quoting tavong (Reply 4):
More or less the same GRU-CGH in Sao Paulo. Or is there any fundamental difference?

Distance aside, GRU is extremelly well connected to many Brazilian major and regional domestic destinations, while CGH is connected mostly to high frequecy business markets.

While EZE is poorly connected to coutryside Argentina and neighbouring contries, AEP is very well served both inside Argentina and to Uruguay, Chile and Brazil
 
shaq
Topic Author
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:22 am

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:31 pm

I always thought that MDZ will be coming before ROS.
But I guess ROS is a bigger market. I expect this destination to go daily by December.
I think that Copa wanted to open a new destination in Argentina since like 2012. It is so good that The Kirchners left the office. Hope that Argentina's economy rebound soon
Studying hard, for flying right!
 
eielef
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RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:48 pm

Lan Peru is also starting flights between LIM and ROS and LIM-SLA.
Lan Argentina is likely to start MDZ-LIM (route will be AEP-MDZ-LIM daily, A320).
So that's all seen for this year...
Some many airports still need international flights, mostly IGR, TUC, UAQ, BRC and USH... At least to LIM or GRU (first two), and to SCL (third till fifth)
 
dcajet
Posts: 4816
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:55 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 8):
Some many airports still need international flights, mostly IGR, TUC, UAQ, BRC and USH... At least to LIM or GRU (first two), and to SCL (third till fifth)

Well, LAN asked for authority to serve IGR from LIM daily a few years ago and of course the Kirchners said no, under the excuse that it would harm AR. So what did LAN do? Turned around and started flying to the Brazilian side airport, IGU. SO there you go, the national brain trust at work.

Interesting list of further destinations those you thought of. For what it is worth, here is my feedback

TUC - still a bit green. Unlike SLA it lacks the leisure traffic and any other demand is tiny. Salta has a more dynamic economy overall.

UAQ - tiny demand, perhaps a 3-4x week flight to SCL and that may be overkill

BRC/USH - any traffic that LAN could funnel via SCL is served already at both airports by LAN Argentina. So why duplicate flights that would cannibalize each other when it comes to international feed?

The one city that IMO we will see grow its international flights is Mendoza, a tourism and business powerhouse. I can see LAN and COPA and perhaps AV flying from there in the not too distant future.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
eielef
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:23 am

Move LP flights from IGU to IGR...
Make 1 weekly 4M TUC-LIM and 1 weekly TUC-SCL
Make 2 weekly 4M UAQ-SCL
Make 3 weekly BRC-SCL and 2 weekly USH-SCL, using either LA or 4M aircraft, the ones available.
Start June 1st, if it goes well, you've solved many problems. If not, shut them down on Aug 1st (winter season)
Easy, peasy, lemon squeezy. Aint it?
SLA failed with flights to TJA, and they put exactly at the same time the few flights to VVI than those to LIM. Bad choice, for a small airport, with room for no more than 30 people on the Intl Departures Area (and without even a coffee place there).
Don't really know of UAQ facilities for intl flights (don't even know if it's officially an Intl Airport), though seen those on BRC, USH and TUC and they could easily handle these flights, which would just be a few times a week...

Cheers
Eielef @IAR
 
dcajet
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RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:20 am

Opening new internartional routes requires an infrastructure at the new outstation, permits, and a host of other expenses that are simply not justified when the operation is a weekly one. You have to squeeze all your fixed costs into that fight. The saving grace for LAN is that it already operates on all those airports, so it would be easier.

I think we need to see how all these fiights come along and if successful we will see many more within a couple of years. This is what the market wants to overcome the duality of hubs at Bs As that makes connecting from the provinces to overseas such a nightmare save for a few cherry picked destinations such as COR, MDZ, ROS, BRC, USH and FTE with AR-AU. If I am from ROS and I can take a one change of plane stop to SFO via PTY, it is a no brainer. This comes at the detriment of AR, but it is high time that AR stops trying to be all things to all people, failing miserably in the intent and concentrates in what it can do best and more importantly, profitably.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:36 am

Frequencies to ROS and MDZ were granted by Argentina to CM but when CM used the frequencies allocated to non-EZE airport to add frequencies, CM frequency growth in Argentina came to an stand-still.
Most likely MDZ will see CM sometime soon and perhaps SLA.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:17 am

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 6):
While EZE is poorly connected to coutryside Argentina and neighbouring contries, AEP is very well served both inside Argentina and to Uruguay, Chile and Brazil

The difference between Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo boils down to scale. At least right now, after years of stagnation, the amount of traffic Buenos Aires generates cannot support two airports. For what Argentina used to be, and Buenos Aires not long ago a clear second most important metropolis in South America, the air traffic in Buenos Aires is just tiny.

"Little" Bogota' is generating a lot more traffic than BUE.

I am skeptical that ROS can support Copa. COR is more of a business city, but ROS is a small economy.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
dcajet
Posts: 4816
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:05 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
The difference between Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo boils down to scale. At least right now, after years of stagnation, the amount of traffic Buenos Aires generates cannot support two airports. For what Argentina used to be, and Buenos Aires not long ago a clear second most important metropolis in South America, the air traffic in Buenos Aires is just tiny.

"Little" Bogota' is generating a lot more traffic than BUE.

I am skeptical that ROS can support Copa. COR is more of a business city, but ROS is a small economy.

Well I am sure CM did its homework before jumping into ROS. And you are mistaken about ROS. While COR is the second largest industrial center in Argentina, Rosario is the center of Argentina's huge agricultural business,located at the center of some of the most fertile farmlands in the world. There is plenty of money in the Rosario catchment area to support these type of flights. The main reason air traffic in ROS never took off completely is its proximity to Bs AIres, only 3 hs by car on a fantastic freeway that makes air connections between the two not in high demand. Cars and buses are the main competition for air traffic at ROS.

Bogota is a regional powerhouse, but you are only telling half the story, and sheer numbers alone are misleading. FInd out how many of ElDorado traffic is domestic v, international and then look at Colombia's geography. That will tell you that in most cases traveling by plane is the only way to move in Colombia. with roads and rail almost non existant, Then you have the opposite in Argentina, with few to none barriers that prevent land connectivity, a good road netrwork and smaller population. And of course the short sighted policies of the last 15 years that have stunted growth in Argentina, Thankfully, fresh thinkijusng is now in office.

If you look at international traffic, you will see Bs As is a more important destination, both business and leisure. Just count the number of long haul airlines that serve both markets.

Regards,
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3100
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:06 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
I am skeptical that ROS can support Copa. COR is more of a business city, but ROS is a small economy.

I don't manage figures in this regard.
However, taking a look into the amount of international flights operating at COR, they are larger than the ones at ROS.
CM must be cautious operating in Rosario. Their shy four flights a week seem to fit this hypothesis.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
dcajet
Posts: 4816
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Copa To ROS, Upgraded to daily eff Nov 1.

Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:19 pm

SJOtoLIR wrote:
Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):I am skeptical that ROS can support Copa. COR is more of a business city, but ROS is a small economy.

I don't manage figures in this regard.
However, taking a look into the amount of international flights operating at COR, they are larger than the ones at ROS.
CM must be cautious operating in Rosario. Their shy four flights a week seem to fit this hypothesis.

Regards.


Exactly two weeks after its launch, CM announced it is upgrading ROS to daily from the current 4x week. Effective Nov 1st.

This shows how much pent up demand there is to/from large secondary cities in Argentina by passing Buenos Aires.

http://www.lacapital.com.ar/desde-novie ... s-n1190570
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2983
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Re: Copa To ROS, Upgraded to daily eff Nov 1.

Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:33 pm

dcajet wrote:
Exactly two weeks after its launch, CM announced it is upgrading ROS to daily from the current 4x week. Effective Nov 1st.

This shows how much pent up demand there is to/from large secondary cities in Argentina by passing Buenos Aires.

http://www.lacapital.com.ar/desde-novie ... s-n1190570
So any chances of CM to MDZ and SLA might be more than rumours now.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4816
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Copa To ROS, Upgraded to daily eff Nov 1.

Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:33 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Exactly two weeks after its launch, CM announced it is upgrading ROS to daily from the current 4x week. Effective Nov 1st.

This shows how much pent up demand there is to/from large secondary cities in Argentina by passing Buenos Aires.

http://www.lacapital.com.ar/desde-novie ... s-n1190570
So any chances of CM to MDZ and SLA might be more than rumours now.


According to info posted on http://www.aeropuertosarg.com.ar/losforos MDZ is probably CM's next destination in Argentina; IGR and BRC have potential; the latter once the 737-8 MAX is introduced as with the 737-800 range from PTY is an issue.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Copa To ROS, Starting In July 1st

Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:34 am

Sidebar:

it's interesting to note that the IATA code mouse-overs work at the earlier part of this thread (pre-migration)... indicating that it can be done for this new site.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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