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readytotaxi
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Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:45 pm

The overnight snow caused problems for the morning traffic at MAN, to be expected, there were delays.
However there seems to be some buck passing as to reason why the delay in getting aircraft de-iced.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35729801

"People on board a number of flights said firms had not turned up to clear ice from their planes - forcing the aircraft to queue to be de-iced."

Manchester Airport said that "de-icing was the responsibility of airlines and their ground teams."

Then a Flybe spokesperson said in "exceptional circumstances" like Friday's heavy snow "it is ultimately the airport that directs the priority in which the de-icing rigs should service the aircraft.Airlines can advise their preferences but have no control over any final decision that in such an instance is wholly directed by the airport."

So who runs the show?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
TC957
Posts: 3621
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:21 pm

Pathetic, isn't it ? As you say buck passing, and of course it's the poor old travelling paying public that suffer this sheer incompetence.
Presume there's a weather station at MAN ??. If they bothered to switch the computer on and checked with the met office then they would have been warned of the snow.
 
Daleaholic
Posts: 2655
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:34 pm

Before you all start saying it's unacceptable and incompetent.... Lets just look at it from the operational perspective.

MAN rarely gets snow, meaning the equipment available is limited. It doesn't make financial sense to have a huge fleet of vehicles sat round for 10 months just waiting for the days where it's freezing or snowing.

I'd say there are probably no more than 10 de-icing trucks (If that) at Manchester. It's not a case of the truck just turning up, giving it a spray and driving off. There are procedures, paperwork and safety protocols in place to protect the staff, passengers and the aircraft. De-Icing an aircraft isn't a quick job, the mix of the fluid must be confirmed, the number of litres must be recorded and the de-icing team must know which parts of the aircraft to spray. Oh, and it's a massive truck which has to be manoeuvred delicately and carefully around a multi million pound aircraft. So take into account the number of flights all wanting to leave between the hours of 0600 - 0900... It's no surprise that flights have been delayed. Also, these trucks don't have an unlimited supply of de-icing fluid, they have to be filled up, which takes time.

People need to understand that it's not just their plane at the airport and that de-icing the aircraft will ultimately save them from potential accidents.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
SoJo
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:29 pm

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:34 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
So who runs the show?

Nature may have a hand in it. This Country is always caught out by bad weather at the wrong time, Ludicrous!
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
David_itl
Posts: 6390
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RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:51 pm

Here are the METARS for MAN for today from 0220 to 1520. Someone else can interpret the anticipation of rain turning to snow but will say that given the visiblities reported i find it pretty good that no SNOCLO message appears.
1520Z 02004KT 2000 -SN BKN008 01/00 Q0989 BECMG 5000 -RASN SCT008 BKN015
1450Z VRB03KT 1500 -SN BKN002 OVC008 01/00 Q0988 RESN
1420Z VRB02KT 1000 R23R/1200 SN BKN001 BKN005 01/00 Q0988 RESN BECMG 3000 RASN SCT001 BKN005
1350Z VRB02KT 1000 R23R/1300 SN BKN001 01/00 Q0988 RESN TEMPO 0600 +SN
1320Z 18003KT 0900 R23R/1200 SN BKN001 00/M00 Q0988 RESN
1250Z 21002KT 0600 R23R/1100 +SN OVC001 00/M00 Q0988 RESN BECMG 30010KT 2000 SN FEW001 BKN004
1220Z 23005KT 180V240 0600 R23R/1000 SN BKN001 00/M00 Q0988 RESN BECMG 30010KT 2000 SN FEW001 BKN04
1150Z 23004KT 0500 R23R/1200 +SN BKN001 00/M00 Q0988 RESN
1120Z 23005KT 0600 R23R/1200 +SN BKN002 00/M00 Q0988 RESN
1050Z 24006KT 1000 R23R/P1500 SN FEW002 BKN004 00/00 Q0988 NOSIG
1020Z 25008KT 2500 SN FEW002 BKN004 00/00 Q0988 NOSIG
0950Z 24007KT 1800 SN FEW002 BKN004 00/M00 Q0988
0920Z 24007KT 1200 R23R/P1500 R23L/P1500 SN FEW001 SCT003 BKN008 00/M00 Q0988 TEMP0 BKN003
0850Z 22006KT 1200 R23R/1400 R23L/P1500 SN FEW002 SCT004 BKN008 00/M00 Q0988 TEMPO 0600 SN BKN004
0820Z 24005KT 0800 R23R/P1500 R23L/P1500 SN FEW001 SCT003 BKN006 00/M00 Q0988 TEMPO 0600 SN BKN003
0750Z 23008KT 0600 R23R/1100 R23L/P1500 SN FEW002 SCT004 BKN008 00/M01 Q0988 TEMPO BKN002
0720Z 24007KT 0800 R23R/P1500 R23L/P1500 SN FEW004 SCT006 BKN010 01/M01 Q0988 BECMG BKN004
0650Z 25009KT 5000 -SNRA BKN012 02/M00 Q0988
0620Z 24009KT 7000 -SNRA FEW009 BKN015 02/M00 Q0988
0550Z 25011KT 9000 -RA OVC012 02/00 Q0988 TEMPO RA
0520Z 25011KT 9999 OVC030 02/00 Q0988
0450Z 26011KT 9000 -RA SCT008 OVC022 02/01 Q0988 TEMPO RA BKN008
0420Z 27012KT 9000 -RA SCT011 BKN016 OVC022 02/01 Q0988 TEMPO BKN011
0350Z 29011KT 9999 -RA BKN015 OVC025 03/01 Q0989 TEMPO BKN014
0320Z 27008KT 9999 -RA OVC015 03/02 Q0989 TEMPO BKN014
0250Z 26007KT 9999 -RA BKN007 BKN011 BKN020 03/02 Q0989 TEMPO RA
0220Z 27005KT 9999 BKN008 OVC012 03/02 Q0989 TEMPO RA
 
cainanuk
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:05 pm

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:34 pm

B**locks....

I worked at MAN as an Ops Controller for 9 years and several of those for BE. This is solely down to the airlines and the fact that they cheap out their ground handling (including de-icing) to the lowest bidder. Lest you forget, it does not need to snow for deicing to be required. BE contracts with ASIG for deicing. ASIG, in my experience was woefully incompetent with regards to being up for the task. If you were lucky, they might have had 2 trucks on at any given time. Bearing in mind that BE flights tend to occur in waves at MAN, there is simply no way that two rigs can handle the departure schedule and keep the schedule. Holdover times and slots make it damned near impossible. I cant tell you how many times I was on a phone, practically begging the useless individual on the other end of the line to prioritize one flight after teh other. Oh no, they would simply start at gate 55 and work there way down the line regardless of STD. But it boils down to you get what you pay for.

As for the PLC, they have more than enough airfield clearing equipment and they actually do quite a good job in keeping the airfield open in adverse weather. Lest you forget, THAT is what the MAPLC is responsible for... The airfield, the terminals and airfield ops. De-icing of aircraft is strictly down to the airlines and the companies they subcontract to.
Cainan Cornelius
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1226
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting cainanuk (Reply 5):

Good post, thanks for the insight.
 
Lofty
Posts: 660
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:23 pm

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:04 am

If you only have a limited number of rigs then why does MAN not have a deicing Pad like LHR T5, in fact they have 2. If you can't bring the rig to the A/C why not bring the A/C to the rig.

My understanding was the airlines look after de-icing using a GHA but due the lack of coordination by the Airlines / GHA, Manchester Airport was forced to take over allocation to prevent the airport going into mass disruption.

[Edited 2016-03-05 02:08:18]
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:41 pm

I cannot be the only person who has noticed that MAN (regardless of who is to blame) does not handle snow very well when it happens. Our weather however is not that different from airports on the near continent. The previous winter 2014 into 2015 gave no snow as far as recall here. I also know from regular travels and hearing from friends and colleagues in Belgium and North West Germany that they had no snow either all winter. However the de-icing of aircraft at DUS for example is much more organised and slicker than anything I have ever seen at MAN!
What is interesting is that not all flights were so delayed. Some came in at lunchtime and went out with minimal delay, but some of those scheduled to depart late morning were delayed by up to 8 hours (I think SN were the latest). However this was not an 8 hour wait for de-icing, clearly there were crew work hours affecting some of these too. That said some airlines do not ensure that their ground handling agents have the operational capacity to perform for their customer base before awarding contracts to them. Given the fares that SN charge on the MAN-BRU route those passengers were especially short changed!
 
anjin
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:49 pm

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:22 pm

I think you can say any airport in the UK cannot cope with snow.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2537
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:55 pm

All snow is not created equal. In the UK and Ireland snow tends to be slush/VE rather than powder, which is much easier to sweep/clear than ice or slush. These conditions are not all that common in he UK and there is less familiarity with dealing with the conditions and less equipment. As a consequence UK airports seem to deal less well with due to a combination of factors. It's not as easy as saying "MAN is bad at snow" - practical and cost effective solutions are few.
 
Lofty
Posts: 660
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:23 pm

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting anjin (Reply 9):
I think you can say any airport in the UK cannot cope with snow.

I don't think we can say that both LHR and LGW have been in the situation that MAN was in. Both airports have invested in equipment, manning and processes which they have not needed yet.
 
TC957
Posts: 3621
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

RE: Snow Problems At MAN, Questions Over Deice.

Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:20 pm

Quoting Lofty (Reply 11):

I don't think we can say that both LHR and LGW have been in the situation that MAN was in. Both airports have invested in equipment, manning and processes which they have not needed yet.

Indeed - there seems to be a vast array of vehicles and equipment at the " Snow station depot " at LHR.
Probably in response to the backlash LHR got the last time it snowed there. Ironically it's never been used in angst.

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