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smw757
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Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:49 pm

So yesterday G4 had yet another incident. A flight from FWA to PIE suffered an engine failure on its takeoff roll and had to reject at high speed. While normally this wouldn't turn too many heads, Allegiant has been having far too many incidents relative to the size of its fleet. Recently an ex-Allegiant mechanic on the forum noted how he quit after working for the airline for only two weeks due to concern for their maintenance practices. How many more incidents will the airline have before it is put under serious review by the FAA?

Here is the link to the AvHerald article on the engine failure and RTO:
http://avherald.com/h?article=494ff74b&opt=0
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:25 pm

Running list of G4 incidents.

https://www.aeroinside.com/incidents/airline/allegiant

In 2016 there have been three engine failures (two on takeoff, one IFSD) and on 12/31 a flight was diverted due to IFSD, as well. In addition, there has been a tire burst on landing, two incidences of diversion due to odor in cabin, and an A320 lost cabin pressure and had to divert. Seven incidents since 1/1

I would not accept a free flight on this airline.

By contrast, Delta has had eight incidents since 1/1 and one of those was a lightning strike and one was the crew misconduct, neither of which are safety-of-flight issues. Allegiant has 83 airplanes, Delta has 800+.
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DLX737200
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:18 pm

This same tail was in the news a few times in just last few months for other engine problems and smoke in the cabin. Sounds like it's time to get rid of N403NV and N405NV. They seem to be the worst offenders of G4 problems.

I'm glad I survived my recent G4 trip but I don't see myself booking another one anytime too soon as long as I enjoy living.
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:33 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
I would not accept a free flight on this airline.
Quoting dlx737200 (Reply 2):
booking another one anytime too soon as long as I enjoy living.

And yet everyone onboard got to their destination and walked away without a scratch. Where exactly is the drama that justifies a blanket condemnation?
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:49 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 3):
And yet everyone onboard got to their destination and walked away without a scratch. Where exactly is the drama that justifies a blanket condemnation?

Statistics. Delta's fleet is roughly 10 times larger and has had no such failures. We'd need to know if any were due to thins outside G4 control such as bird strikes or runway FODS but if not, then given the age of the fleet, its often due to issues with maintenance.

The FAA should've been checking into this long before now given the incidents but hey, why should they do their jobs?
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:31 am

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 3):
And yet everyone onboard got to their destination and walked away without a scratch. Where exactly is the drama that justifies a blanket condemnation?
G4 ferried a spare plane to FWA and the pax got to PIE the same day of the incident. They also provided food/drink vouchers for the FWA terminal, a $200 credit for a future G4 flight or package, and the ability to reschedule a G4 flight for another date should one have another flight planned on G4.

I'd say that G4 treated these pax very well, especially by ULCC standards. The pax still got to PIE when they wanted to get there, $200 can pay for the flight portion of many G4 packages with money to spare, and the rescheduling perk was a nice touch. OTOH, last year, NK stranded a whole high school sports team in Florida with virtually nothing in compensation and no flight open until the following week... when school was in session for a week.

[Edited 2016-03-06 16:33:22]
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
In 2016 there have been three engine failures (two on takeoff, one IFSD) and on 12/31 a flight was diverted due to IFSD, as well. In addition, there has been a tire burst on landing, two incidences of diversion due to odor in cabin, and an A320 lost cabin pressure and had to divert. Seven incidents since 1/1

I would not accept a free flight on this airline.

Sadly I must agree. Considering G4s low utilization, this is even worse.

FL had a bunch of little incidents before a crash. G4 has developed a complacent culture.

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WA707atMSP
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:23 am

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 3):
And yet everyone onboard got to their destination and walked away without a scratch. Where exactly is the drama that justifies a blanket condemnation?

A high number of incidents is a clear warning that an airline is having problems. So far, nobody has been injured, but I'm concerned that sooner or later, there will be an incident that does not end as happily.

I hope the FAA is getting ready to conduct a thorough examination of Allegiant's operations, before something more serious happens.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):

A high number of incidents is a clear warning that an airline is having problems.

That cannot be overstated. It also applies to engine types, airframes, and the whole industry.

Lightsaber
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727LOVER
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:24 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I hope the FAA is getting ready to conduct a thorough examination of Allegiant's operations, before something more serious happens.

Well, what exactly is the FAA doing RIGHT NOW ?!?!???!!

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
OTOH, last year, NK stranded a whole high school sports team in Florida with virtually nothing in compensation and no flight open until the following week... when school was in session for a week

Is it better to be stranded or dead in a plane crash?  
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flight152
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:27 am

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 3):

Because the highly dangerous RTO worked out this time, it must work every time, right?
 
tozairport
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:28 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
I'd say that G4 treated these pax very well, especially by ULCC standards.

That's not the point at all. I applaud Allegiant for taking care of there customers, but there has been one too many instances lately where their customers need to be taken care of. Hopefully someone will figure out what is going on before the inevitable Valuejet smoking hole happens.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
MaverickTTT
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:38 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
I'd say that G4 treated these pax very well, especially by ULCC standards.

I'm reminded of an old Chris Rock bit about people bragging about stuff they're supposed to do. If you have a "controllable" delay, you take care of your passengers. That's what you're supposed to do.

Unfortunately, it's becoming clearer and clearer that G4 is having issues with other things they're "supposed to do"...like ensure that their aircraft are well-maintained and airworthy. It's all well and good that this group of passengers were able to receive such care after the incident. Let's hope the next G4 aircraft full of passengers to experience such an incident are lucky enough to walk away.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:57 am

Sadly, the FAA seems to be practicing the old habit. It seems like serious enforcement happens when blood is spilled. I am shocked there hasn't been a major inspection and grounding after so many incidents. One thing we can all be confident in.... The flight crews have shown their ability to handle emergencies. Some have speculated the pilots are mad, and that some of this is revenge. I can see pilots delaying flights and refusing to operate an unsafe plane. All other these incidents clearly indicate a major maintenance issue. The former mechanics article seems to support the accusations. I just hope we don't see a fatal crash or injuries to see the FAA make sweeping changes.

What concerns me most is, Maurice Gallagher. It's just too coincidental he came from Valujet, and now Allegiant seems to be following an eerily similar path. I worry he is running a similar business practice. I think G4 needs a major overhaul in management and maintenance.
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smw757
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:09 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
I'd say that G4 treated these pax very well, especially by ULCC standards.

While I commend G4 for their customer service, this is a complete non-sequitur to the safety issue at hand. Service and delay compensations do not mitigate the possibilities of more serious incidents and even accidents developing from these previous relatively minor but frequent incidents.

I've been reading up on Allegiant's safety record and, according to this WSJ article, the FAA has been looking closely at Allegiant since last summer's incident with the aircraft that landed in Fargo during the TFR for the Blue Angels' show. My question is, when will we see the effects of this "scrutiny" take hold?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/faa-step...p-scrutiny-of-allegiant-1438275547
 
wjcandee
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:59 am

Quoting smw757 (Reply 14):
the FAA has been looking closely at Allegiant since last summer's incident with the aircraft that landed in Fargo during the TFR for the Blue Angels' show

Well that's just dumb, if true, because it was largely an FAA miscommunication, remedied the very next day, that led to that incident. That they fined G4 anyway doesn't mean it wasn't largely the FAA's fault. (They had told airlines that scheduled flights would be allowed in, didn't provide the tower phone number to coordinate, filed the flight plan, executed the flight plan, and then when the tower handoff occurred, said that the airport was closed. The communicating pilot's misguided use of the term "bingo fuel" drove the media frenzy. IIRC, they never even touched the reserve fuel because they landed safely at the airport that had been in their approved flight plan for several hours.)

That said, I have a few thoughts: (1) do the posters who are comparing DL to G4 actually know what incidents occurred at DL? Certainly, SDRs don't tell you anything much because many carriers have cut back on filing them because the media looks at them, and they aren't publicly posted and aggregated in any sort of rapid way; (2) mixing different levels of incidents and claiming there is a pattern is dumb.

However, the one incident that should have sent shivers down everyone's spine was the elevator failure and the reason for it. I saw something somewhere recently that suggested that it was an error made by and at AAR, who does work for everybody and so can't be called a lesser operator as MROs go, but it is a gargantuan red flag that needed to be evaluated. G4 did have AA do their MRO work for years, so it's not that they weren't willing to pay for that; AA shut them down when they shut down MCI, claiming not enough room at OKC. Similarly, of course, ValuJet wanted NW to do its MRO, and NW refused.

Although their major incident was likely MRO-caused, the frequent more "minor" issues seem to be the result of exactly the kinds of things that that mechanic was talking about -- basically half-assing a bunch of stuff.

Running local newspaper ads that say, "We take your safety seriously," is ineffectual and not the proper response.

The mechanic's article basically said that poor training and poor practices in the shop were likely to lead to more air returns; it did not say that the things he saw would result in bent metal. The thrust of it seemed to be that G4 was willing to endure diversions as long as they were in compliance with FAA regs, and not take the extra expensive steps necessary to improve reliability. I still don't think the carrier is "dangerous". I do think that fatal accident sequences are just that -- sequences -- and not acting aggressively to keep from starting into a sequence, even at a higher cost, or, more negatively-put, being willing to take the first step in a sequence, does not bode well long-term. Constantly pointing to the fact that they've never had a fatal accident is idiotic and should be cause for a good spanking: it's an irrelevant statistic, because one thing is absolutely certain: the moment they God forbid do ever have one, they are done, over, toast, out-of-business, fined and sued into oblivion. Their shareholders and lenders and insurers should be actively-pressuring them to fix the reputation the way TWA did: by fixing the issue. They need to have months and months with no more of these issues.

And it's not "old planes". DL and AA fly the same birds, and DO sometimes have the same problems, but not at this level.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:05 am

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 3):

And yet everyone onboard got to their destination and walked away without a scratch. Where exactly is the drama that justifies a blanket condemnation?

Every time a thing like this happens, a layer of safety is being eroded away. When each layer of safety has holes in it, it's only a matter time before a number of those holes line up and a plane crashes through them.
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jetmatt777
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:06 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
However, the one incident that should have sent shivers down everyone's spine was the elevator failure and the reason for it. I saw something somewhere recently that suggested that it was an error made by and at AAR, who does work for everybody and so can't be called a lesser operator as MROs go, but it is a gargantuan red flag that needed to be evaluated. G4 did have AA do their MRO work for years, so it's not that they weren't willing to pay for that; AA shut them down when they shut down MCI, claiming not enough room at OKC. Similarly, of course, ValuJet wanted NW to do its MRO, and NW refused.

Just to clarify, AA MRO is at TUL not OKC. However, AAR MRO (which does MRO work for AS, YV, and G4 and a few others) is at OKC.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:40 am

I know that they base their business plan on flying older aircraft with low utilization;
And I know that they can certainly fly older planes safely.

But when UA ordered those 40 737-800's on the cheap a few weeks back, I couldn't help but think that Allegiant might be best to:
1. Push Maurice out the door
2. Push their head of Safety out the door
3. Order some (relatively) dirt cheap 737's while Boeing still has slots
or
3b. Order some (relatively) dirt cheap CS300's in the high capacity variant.

Again, I know those things aren't likely to happen, but it sounded like a good plan to me.  

-Dave
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scbriml
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:31 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 10):
Because the highly dangerous RTO worked out this time, it must work every time, right?

What's "highly dangerous" about an RTO? It's something every plane is certified to be able to do.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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shamrock137
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:20 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 19):
What's "highly dangerous" about an RTO? It's something every plane is certified to be able to do.

While I agree "highly dangerous" might not be the best term, an RTO isn't an event to be taken lightly. Depending on the aircraft type and airline procedure, a high speed RTO may be cause to take the aircraft out of service for maintenance inspections. Just because an aircraft is certified for a maneuver, doesn't mean it can do it without incident.
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scbriml
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:38 pm

Quoting Shamrock137 (Reply 20):
Depending on the aircraft type and airline procedure, a high speed RTO may be cause to take the aircraft out of service for maintenance inspections.

An RTOs can just as easily result in a return to stand and take off again a few minutes later.

Yes, in some circumstances an RTO might result in the plane not being immediately reusable, but to describe an RTO as "highly dangerous" is just tabloid journalism.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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jfklganyc
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:04 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 19):

What's "highly dangerous" about an RTO? It's something every plane is certified to be able to do.

Airline Pilot here

A high speed abort is one of the most dangerous manuevers possible in any airliner

It is only done

1 Below V1
2 If you as pilot believe the aircraft will not get airborne

Understand, in terms of safety procedures, it is absolutely preferable to be in the air with a problem and come around and do a controlled approach vs stopping in the High Speed Regime

High Speed Regime is anything above 80kts and is reserved for anything that will endanger the aircraft getting airborne and flying safely. It is used as a matter of last resort. It is absolutely a risky and dangerous move but is necessary under the most extreme situations
 
flight152
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):

If you don't think a high speed abort isn't dangerous, you don't really know much about flying.
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:46 pm

FYI
As I type this, they are performing an engine swap W of the old FBO ramp in FWA.

As to RTO, don't pilots practice this maneuver almost everytime they are in a simulator? If so, that should make it only slightly more risky than a normal landing.
I don't understand this almost-paranoid like reaction to a rare, but not uncommon occurance.

For all you zero-risk-tolerant types, park your car. You would never have made it through the 50s and 60s where the major carriers had an accident or two PER YEAR.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
travelavnut
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:09 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 24):
I don't understand this almost-paranoid like reaction to a rare, but not uncommon occurance

And I don't understand why you don't understand this:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
By contrast, Delta has had eight incidents since 1/1 and one of those was a lightning strike and one was the crew misconduct, neither of which are safety-of-flight issues. Allegiant has 83 airplanes, Delta has 800+.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
Delta's fleet is roughly 10 times larger and has had no such failures.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Sadly I must agree. Considering G4s low utilization, this is even worse.
Quoting MaverickTTT (Reply 12):
Unfortunately, it's becoming clearer and clearer that G4 is having issues with other things they're "supposed to do"...like ensure that their aircraft are well-maintained and airworthy.
Live From Amsterdam!
 
apfpilot
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:16 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 24):

For all you zero-risk-tolerant types, park your car. You would never have made it through the 50s and 60s where the major carriers had an accident or two PER YEAR.

We don't live in those times anymore. Lots of blood was spilled to get us to where we are now, and many of us lost friends and colleagues so we aren't there anymore. The past is irrelevant in this discussion.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:37 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 24):
As to RTO, don't pilots practice this maneuver almost everytime they are in a simulator? If so, that should make it only slightly more risky than a normal landing.
I don't understand this almost-paranoid like reaction to a rare, but not uncommon occurance.

It really depends on at what point you're at going down the runway. What's your speed? What is the emergency with the engine? Is it a fire? Can you safely come to a stop before reaching the end of the runway? If not, you have to go to full thrust on the remaining engine and do a go-around while shutting down the malfunctioning engine. You have maybe three seconds to choose.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:44 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 26):
Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 24):

For all you zero-risk-tolerant types, park your car. You would never have made it through the 50s and 60s where the major carriers had an accident or two PER YEAR.

We don't live in those times anymore. Lots of blood was spilled to get us to where we are now, and many of us lost friends and colleagues so we aren't there anymore. The past is irrelevant in this discussion.

Agreed, Apfpilot.

Most people who have followed this industry a long time know that before many fatal accidents, there were a series of incidents, but the underlying cause of the incidents was not addressed until after the fatal accident. ValuJet is a classic example. Another example is the near-crash of an AA DC-10 near DTW in 1972, after a cargo door opened inflight; the aircraft was saved only through the superb airmanship of the pilots. 21 months later, a TK DC-10's cargo door opened inflight, but the pilots were not able to save the aircraft; only after this catastrophe were the underlying safety issues with the DC-10, which the AA near-crash had identified, addressed.

Allegiant has had a string of serious incidents this year, which appear to be caused by unsafe aircraft. A crash may be unlikely, but a pattern is emerging, and the underlying causes of the incidents haven't been addressed.

Although we can't avoid risk completely in our lives, we can mitigate it as much as possible. Even though it's unlikely we will be in a car accident, we still wear our seat belts. And, even though airline crashes are very rare, it's wise to choose airlines that do not have a pattern of serious incidents, that may be a warning of a potential problem.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm

Quoting flight152 (Reply 10):
Because the highly dangerous RTO worked out this time, it must work every time, right?

I keep thinking about PGD's 7,193' rwy 4/22 and G4's large Mad Dog operation there... often with temperatures 80+ degrees Fahrenheit. .... scary thoughts.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:34 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 24):

As to RTO, don't pilots practice this maneuver almost everytime they are in a simulator? If so, that should make it only slightly more risky than a normal landing.
I don't understand this almost-paranoid like reaction to a rare, but not uncommon occurance.

"Rare but not uncommon" is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it? As other pilots have said, a high-speed RTO is a very risky maneuver. You can have the brakes/tires burst into flames or you can skid off the runway, rupture a fuel tank, and burst into flames, or you can get lucky and wind up on the runway with an undamaged aircraft.

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 24):

For all you zero-risk-tolerant types, park your car. You would never have made it through the 50s and 60s where the major carriers had an accident or two PER YEAR.

Last I checked it was 2016 and flying was supposed to be by far the safest form of transport. Perhaps you'd also like to ban all vaccines and antibiotics and let people die of preventable or treatable diseases, too? What else would you like to go back in time for? Steamships? Wooden sailing ships?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
canyonblue17
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:50 pm

It's often a series of little things going wrong at the same time that leads to something tragic. These consistent and ongoing issues are - to me - an example of an airline heading in that direction.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
dashdrvr
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting flight152 (Reply 23):

Thank you for putting RTO in correct perspective.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:56 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 31):

It's often a series of little things going wrong at the same time that leads to something tragic. These consistent and ongoing issues are - to me - an example of an airline heading in that direction.

One term I've heard for this is what's called an "incident pit." One little thing happens, which leads to the next, and yadda yadda 150 people die in a fireball.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:10 pm

Before the ad-hominem attacks start, I am saddened whenever I hear of a fatal accident. An incident like this and I go, "sounds like the system worked." I just don't say I'll never go there or with them again because of it, as some have stated. Doing so may deprive yourself of a wonderful opportunity in the future. That is the point I am trying to make.


Just a clarification, how is crew mis-conduct (as stated in the DL stats) not a safety issue? From afar, it would seem to be a part of "safety issues." I'm curious under what circumstances can you make that conclusion.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:22 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 31):


It's often a series of little things going wrong at the same time that leads to something tragic.

They say it's usually three things going wrong at the same time that turns into something major.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:32 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 24):
As to RTO, don't pilots practice this maneuver almost everytime they are in a simulator? If so, that should make it only slightly more risky than a normal landing.
I don't understand this almost-paranoid like reaction to a rare, but not uncommon occurance.

There are so many variables that come to mind especially at high speed. For example, compensating the loss of an engine. A sudden tire blowout. I RTO at high speed can have very dangerous results. There is very little margin of error. A simulator can be reset, as to a real situation cant. This is where I applaud the crew.
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DocLightning
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:35 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 34):

Before the ad-hominem attacks start, I am saddened whenever I hear of a fatal accident. An incident like this and I go, "sounds like the system worked."

When you get in a crash because you were on your phone and you are uninjured because the seatbelts and air bags worked, you don't shrug and go "sounds like the system worked."

The trick is not to get into a crash by not being on your phone. Similarly, the trick that G4 needs is to not have engine failures. That means that RTO is not needed.
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apfpilot
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:07 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 34):
An incident like this and I go, "sounds like the system worked."

The system working isn't always a good thing. If you are a parachutist and the main fails and the reserve is used, you don't just say, whelp the system worked and walk away. You do a RCA (or some form of that) to find out why and see what you can do to prevent it in the future. The idea is never to have to use the reserve (or the system) in this case.

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 34):
I just don't say I'll never go there or with them again because of it, as some have stated.

I wouldn't either with one example. Heck maybe even 2 similar but different issues, but when there is a cluster one needs to sit back and view the entire organization with a suspect eye and find out why what is happening is happening. Is it just a statistical anomaly? Is there a common connection to these incidents (flight crew? overhaul provider? ground service provider? MRO shop? Procedure?), or are they only related in a company culture (inspectors not verifying tasks being completed, improper technical documentation being used, unapproved procedure being used.) Then once you have determined why they are happening, you need to figure out how to stop them from happening.
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WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:52 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 34):

Before the ad-hominem attacks start, I am saddened whenever I hear of a fatal accident. An incident like this and I go, "sounds like the system worked."

When you get in a crash because you were on your phone and you are uninjured because the seatbelts and air bags worked, you don't shrug and go "sounds like the system worked."

The trick is not to get into a crash by not being on your phone. Similarly, the trick that G4 needs is to not have engine failures. That means that RTO is not needed.

You're both correct. In an isolated incident, you can absolutely look at backup and safety systems and be glad that they exist. It's what prevents panic when there is an IFSD or landing gear failure - there are procedures and safety measures in place for these specific instances. Becoming paranoid over a single RTO is the same as the medias obsession with 'near misses' and go-arounds.

However, this does not absolve the root cause of all blame. As pointed out above, the statistics alone indicate that this is not an isolated incident. The scary part is not that there was an RTO, but the frequency with which these events are occurring. At some point an engine failure is going to coincide with adverse weather and a tired crew, and the results might not be so pleasant.
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:06 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 22):
Understand, in terms of safety procedures, it is absolutely preferable to be in the air with a problem and come around and do a controlled approach vs stopping in the High Speed Regime

Here's a nice example of that which some of us are probably familiar with:
http://youtu.be/NQZzTPd1HJw

I think we should be careful not to play down things that are serious as "just part of normal operations". There are many things that are part of normal operations which are unnecessarily the subject of beat ups - "Passengers tell of terror after flight diverts around thunderstorm", "passengers feared for life after call bell light stopped functioning" etc etc - but engine failures (and tail strikes!) definitely fall into the category of serious and shouldn't just be dismissed as a routine occurrence. It doesn't mean they need a CNN Breaking News banner, but they are worth sorting out.

V/F
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DocLightning
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:45 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 39):

However, this does not absolve the root cause of all blame. As pointed out above, the statistics alone indicate that this is not an isolated incident. The scary part is not that there was an RTO, but the frequency with which these events are occurring. At some point an engine failure is going to coincide with adverse weather and a tired crew, and the results might not be so pleasant.

And one day it's going to be a rotor burst and it's going to do some real damage, maybe even kill a pax or three. Or 150.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Grisee08
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
ValuJet wanted NW to do its MRO, and NW refused.

Did NW refuse? or did J7 not want to pay the cost of having NW do the MRO? There is a difference. I seem to recall as J7 doing some shopping around, and always went for the cheap. Given NW's DC-9 performance, I can't say they were exactly the cheapest. But they could be called The Best. JW
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777X
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

I like this breakdown, and I think a better way to understand the problem at Allegiant is to consider that if if Delta had ~1 incident for every 10 planes in the first 2 months of 2016, they would have had ~80 safety related incidents, or ~10/week!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:48 pm

Quoting 777X (Reply 43):

I like this breakdown, and I think a better way to understand the problem at Allegiant is to consider that if if Delta had ~1 incident for every 10 planes in the first 2 months of 2016, they would have had ~80 safety related incidents, or ~10/week!

Exactly. And is the FAA just going to wait until a G4 plane with 150 people aboard goes for a swim to take action?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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F9Animal
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:33 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
Exactly. And is the FAA just going to wait until a G4 plane with 150 people aboard goes for a swim to take action?

This is exactly what needs to happen before the FAA gets serious! It's absolutely disgusting! It peeves me that this agency isn't proactive. It's their history to only take action when blood is spilled. I do not understand this method.

Allegiant has a serious problem unfolding before our eyes. The saddest part of it? Allegiant has the funds to take corrective actions to prevent a potentially serious accident. I have to question the integrity of Maurice Gallagher. I could not imagine being the CEO of an airline, and not taking extreme actions to resolve serious maintenance issues. Is the plan to have another Valujet 592, cash out, and start another airline? The clock is ticking, and I can't believe Gallagher and team haven't publicly come out to give the customers and public confidence that things are going to change.

Will it take a financial downturn on the story before action is taken? Will it take a drop in bookings? Is it all financially based for this airline to change its maintenance program?

I would love to see Allegiant grow and prosper. However, I can't stand at the side being a cheerleader under the current circumstances this airline faces. I hate to say it, but I think the pilots are the only group capable of grounding the planes, and demanding a serious revamp of their maintenance program. Obviously, the FAA won't do it. I pray that nothing bad happens. It would be a preventable tragedy.
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solarflyer22
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:41 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 45):
Allegiant has a serious problem unfolding before our eyes. The saddest part of it? Allegiant has the funds to take corrective actions to prevent a potentially serious acciden

Well I heard enough. I know that most of you guys know your aviation stuff (better than your international politics, sigh) so I submitted a complaint on Allegiant air safety on the FAA site.

Anyone that has concerns on safety or service can report it on faa.gov and I encourage us all to do so. We have an obligation as well as the FAA to let them know when there is an issue.

https://www.faa.gov/contact/safety_hotline/
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:00 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 46):
I know that most of you guys know your aviation stuff (better than your international politics, sigh)

We didn't ask.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 46):
Anyone that has concerns on safety or service can report it on faa.gov and I encourage us all to do so. We have an obligation as well as the FAA to let them know when there is an issue.

So someone (like me) who's never flown on Allegiant should complain about their safety to the FAA? Are we to assume that the FAA is unaware of their aforementioned incidents until someone visits their website and tells them?

Just trying to grasp what we are hoping to accomplish.

-Dave
-Dave


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apfpilot
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RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:28 am

The TAMC report on G4 was just released https://www.apa1224.org/public/1603ALGT_TAMC.pdf reading it now.


Edit:
First thought: This isn't good if true: "There is inadequate tooling and equipment. Mechanics have reported that critical jobs, such as the lubrication of stabilizer jack screws, cannot be performed due to a lack of training on equipment and unavailable equipment."

[Edited 2016-03-07 18:30:30]


Edit 2:

Without anything to compare it to the number of Diversions and RTOs are quite concerning.


[Edited 2016-03-07 18:33:06]
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

RE: Allegiant Engine Failure RTO 3/5

Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:06 am

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 48):
Mechanics have reported that critical jobs, such as the lubrication of stabilizer jack screws, cannot be performed due to a lack of training on equipment and unavailable equipment."

I lost friends on AS 261...I can't believe I'm reading this. Knowing what we do now, an airline would fail to lubricate jack screws on a MD80?? Criminal negligence.

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