afcjets
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SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:13 pm

Thunderstorms are rare in Southern California at least along the coastal areas but we are having one this morning. I live in the path of SNA departures and the first jet I heard during the worst of the storm was way louder than normal and was pretty exciting for me. I know the rain/wind can sometimes intensify the sound but my question is when the weather is really bad, do they just skip the noise abatement procedures on climb out for safety?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Ordinance makes no adjustments for weather.

From moment to moment, weather may influence sound levels at particular locations resulting in higher or lower intensities; however, these effects are small for short propagation distances and quite variable for large propagation distances. For this reason, the GANO makes no adjustment for the effects of weather. The maximum permitted noise limits specified in the GANO apply during all weather conditions and seasons; they represent the maximum noise level that is permitted to occur at each noise monitoring station at any time.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
wnflyguy
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:47 pm

Some may alter their thrust and take off paths in the event of wind shear or advised by the tower for traffic in the area.
So in the those 2 events any excess noise is exempt.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
afcjets
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:09 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):


Ordinance makes no adjustments for weather.

Thanks for the information, I interpreted that as they make no adjustments in measuring noise levels based on the weather's impact on sound, not as addressing adjustments pilots could make to takeoff procedures regarding noise abatement so they could takeoff safely during inclement weather (as opposed to not taking off at all)
 
AAR90
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:01 pm

In my 28 years of flying SNA (25 years as home airport) I have never heard or seen any deviation from departure profiles for any reason. The most we pilots see is an altitude restriction due to light civil aircraft. Having said that, IF a departing pilot felt the need to deviate, he most certainly can by using his Captain's Authority. He will; However, be required to file a report as to why he deviated... but I have never seen that before either. If the weather off the departure end of the runway does not look good... pilots simply wait out the weather and do not depart --I have seen that many dozens of times. The delay is almost always less than 10 minutes.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:22 pm

Do the noise-restriction rules apply to take offs from 2L on Santa Ana wind days?
 
barney captain
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:37 pm

We had to abandon the noise abatement profile once due to wind shear. Although the convective activity wasn't directly along our path, shortly after engine cutback we encountered the wind shear.

Since the sound of us escaping the wind shear over the houses, was likely quieter than the sound of us crashing in to the houses, we felt comfortable with the decision.  

[Edited 2016-03-07 12:38:15]

Also , there is no noise abatement on runway's 2L/R


[Edited 2016-03-07 12:39:19]
Southeast Of Disorder
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:12 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 5):
Do the noise-restriction rules apply to take offs from 2L on Santa Ana wind days?

No, they fly a normal takeoff profile from 2L.

Last time I flew out of there in an AS 73G, there was no noise-abatement procedure. He flew a standard climb thrust reduction. I wasn't sure why. Although the 73G noise abatement procedure is fairly tame, they usually do it.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 6):
We had to abandon the noise abatement profile once due to wind shear. Although the convective activity wasn't directly along our path, shortly after engine cutback we encountered the wind shear.

I would assume that all bets are off for noise abatement at SNA for any kind of emergency: Windshear, TCAS RA, EGPWS alert, engine failure, etc.

[Edited 2016-03-07 14:13:22]
 
b747400erf
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:10 am

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 2):

Some may alter their thrust and take off paths in the event of wind shear or advised by the tower for traffic in the area.
So in the those 2 events any excess noise is exempt.

Most likely the cloud cover caused the sound to echo and seem louder

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 5):


Do the noise-restriction rules apply to take offs from 2L on Santa Ana wind days?

No, the poors live to the east of the airport. The politicians don't care about them.
 
Beardown91737
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:04 am

Basically commercial / industrial below the departure end of rwy 2.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:20 am

Frankly, I'm surprised anything was landing or taking off during this morning's storm. It was a serious thunderstorm, more akin to something you'd see in the Midwest than in southern California. I didn't think it ever stormed like that here. The thunder woke me up at about 530am and my first thought was there had been some kind of gas explosion.
 
AAR90
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Last time I flew out of there in an AS 73G, there was no noise-abatement procedure. He flew a standard climb thrust reduction. I wasn't sure why. Although the 73G noise abatement procedure is fairly tame, they usually do it.

AA 738s have had no special noise abatement procedures at SNA for more than a decade. It took 4+ years to convince the SNA folks to conduct actual test flights in order to prove the 738 noise footprint in a standard departure procedure was considerably quieter than the SNA noise standards. After 4 months of historical data, SNA agreed and AA 738s have no special noise procedures at SNA. I would assume other airlines using 738s could "piggy-back" on that data and get authorization for no special noise procedures at SNA.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:56 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 11):
AA 738s have had no special noise abatement procedures at SNA for more than a decade. It took 4+ years to convince the SNA folks to conduct actual test flights in order to prove the 738 noise footprint in a standard departure procedure was considerably quieter than the SNA noise standards. After 4 months of historical data, SNA agreed and AA 738s have no special noise procedures at SNA. I would assume other airlines using 738s could "piggy-back" on that data and get authorization for no special noise procedures at SNA.

Thanks. I was aware of that. I've mentioned in other threads that AA 738s are authorized to fly a normal takeoff profile from SNA. What I'm not clear on is if the 737-700 is also authorized to not do the noise abatement procedure, or if other airline 737-800s are exempt.
 
b747400erf
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:08 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 11):
It took 4+ years to convince the SNA folks to conduct actual test flights in order to prove the 738 noise footprint in a standard departure procedure was considerably quieter than the SNA noise standards.

Isn't the noise abaitment to full throttle using the highest rate of climb possible? That never made sense to me, it is much louder than a reduced thrust takeoff and throttle back after reaching min height.
 
AAR90
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:35 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 13):
Isn't the noise abaitment to full throttle using the highest rate of climb possible? That never made sense to me, it is much louder than a reduced thrust takeoff and throttle back after reaching min height.

Full power to 800'/1000'/1500' AGL (depends upon equipment/airline) then significant reduced thrust climb until past the coastline --and the last noise monitoring stations. Noise monitors begin about 1 mile south of the runway so noise AT the runway isn't really a consideration. Just the communities south of the runway... which is where the noise monitors are located.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: SNA Noise Abatement Lifted During Storm?

Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:40 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 14):
Full power to 800'/1000'/1500' AGL (depends upon equipment/airline)

Who cuts back at 1500 feet? I'm aware that it's mostly 800 or 1000, but I didn't think anyone went to 1500. What's their initial climb attitude, 20 degrees?

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