Page 1 of 1

How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:20 am
by DiscoverCSG
I'm due to land at ORD in the morning, and the wind forecast calls for 15-20 knots out of the SSW.

Is that strong enough to trigger landing on the 22's (and the attendant ATC delays)?

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:34 am
by jfklganyc
Nope.

KORD 080257Z 0803/0906 19012KT P6SM OVC050
FM080600 20015KT P6SM FEW015 BKN050
FM081500 20015G22KT P6SM SCT010 BKN030
FM081800 21017G25KT P6SM FEW020 BKN030
FM090200 20015KT P6SM -SHRA SCT007 BKN010

Expect 28s/27s.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:07 am
by b747400erf
During the last storm recently all arrivals landed on 4R that was unusual.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:12 am
by N353SK
I believe that AA and Envoy are not permitted to land with a crosswind component of more than 30 knots so that is generally the trigger at O'Hare.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:26 pm
by bhmdiversion
Most regionals can't exceed a 30 knot crosswind limitation. If the winds are that strong, some mainline equipment (A319/320) also can't shoot the approach. The arrival rate is severely reduced if ORD goes into an all 22's operations.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:02 pm
by Cubsrule
Keep in mind that 22L has noise issues so is not normally used for arrivals. For that reason as well as the arrival rate, I would imagine that they do not go to all 22s unless they have to. Also, in south wind IFR weather, which is not that common, 22R/14R may have a higher arrival rate than the 22s.

22R is still sometimes used in a 22R/27L/28C or 28L configuration.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:01 pm
by airstatdfw
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Keep in mind that 22L has noise issues so is not normally used for arrivals. For that reason as well as the arrival rate, I would imagine that they do not go to all 22s unless they have to. Also, in south wind IFR weather, which is not that common, 22R/14R may have a higher arrival rate than the 22s.

22R is still sometimes used in a 22R/27L/28C or 28L configuration.

The noise wouldn't stop us if we needed to use it. 22s really lower the arrival rate. We cant do 22R and 14R anymore due to the new rules. If we had to do 22s it would be in on 22R and 22L and out on 28C and 22L. Normally it would be over 30kts to goto the 22s or 4s.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:06 pm
by Cubsrule
Quoting airstatdfw (Reply 6):
If we had to do 22s it would be in on 22R and 22L and out on 28C and 22L. Normally it would be over 30kts to goto the 22s or 4s.

What is the criteria for 22R versus 27R as the "northernmost" arrival runway in west flow? And is 4R used at all in east flow anymore? I believe the new rules would preclude 4R and the 10s from being used simultaneously.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:23 pm
by kbmiflyer
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
What is the criteria for 22R versus 27R as the "northernmost" arrival runway in west flow? And is 4R used at all in east flow anymore? I believe the new rules would preclude 4R and the 10s from being used simultaneously.

I personally have not seen 22R or 4R used for arrivals since 27R and 10C have been open. 22L is still used quiet a bit for departures, but that seems to be the only use of either crosswind runway.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:26 pm
by Cubsrule
Quoting kbmiflyer (Reply 8):
I personally have not seen 22R or 4R used for arrivals since 27R and 10C have been open.

I spend a fair amount of time in the north suburbs and still see 22R arrivals from time to time, but nowhere near as much as before 27R.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:52 pm
by airstatdfw
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
What is the criteria for 22R versus 27R as the "northernmost" arrival runway in west flow? And is 4R used at all in east flow anymore? I believe the new rules would preclude 4R and the 10s from being used simultaneously.

The only time we would use 22R over 27R would be if we needed to go to the 22s for some reason. During the airshow we may go to the 22s if we cant be on east flow. 4R will be used if the crosswind for the 10C/10R 9L make them unusable. Last week it was snowing with winds out of the north 25 to 30kts, which we went to Landing 4R and departing 4L and 32L.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:32 pm
by kbmiflyer
Quoting airstatdfw (Reply 10):
The only time we would use 22R over 27R would be if we needed to go to the 22s for some reason. During the airshow we may go to the 22s if we cant be on east flow. 4R will be used if the crosswind for the 10C/10R 9L make them unusable. Last week it was snowing with winds out of the north 25 to 30kts, which we went to Landing 4R and departing 4L and 32L.

Great info, I didn't realize 32L was even still open. Will it stay open until 27C is completed? Is 32R still considered open and does it ever get used?

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:17 am
by DiscoverCSG
To answer my own question, my AA 738 landed on 27L around 8:20 this morning. My AA 738 departed 22L about 5:50 this evening.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:37 am
by jfklganyc
  Called it! hahaha

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:58 am
by MSJYOP28Apilot
Quoting N353SK (Reply 3):
I believe that AA and Envoy are not permitted to land with a crosswind component of more than 30 knots so that is generally the trigger at O'Hare.

There is no blanket 30kt crosswind limit at AA or Envoy. It depends on the equipment limitations and also the weather conditions. With good visibility and braking action, the 757/767 have a 29 kts limit, 737 has 33 kts, MD80 has 30 kts, 777 has 38 kts, A319/A321 is 29G35 kts, and the 787 is 33 kts for landing.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:34 am
by jetblastdubai
Quoting airstatdfw (Reply 10):
which we went to Landing 4R and departing 4L and 32L.

I'm sure there's a reason that I'm not aware of but why did the City ever close 32R permanently? Is there a plan for that land?

32R is over 10,000' long, a usable crosswind runway to use when the east-west runways are not suitable and it's located on the edge of the airfield and doesn't interfere with anything else.

On the other hand, 4L is too short for many long-haul departures, is extremely complicated/restrictive to use as an arrival runway and it's physical location blocks the expansion of the most logical place for additional domestic gates.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1603/00166ad.pdf

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:53 am
by airstatdfw
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 15):

It was in the plan due to the restriction of not having more than 8 Rwys. They are starting construction on 9C/27C this summer/fall which will be in the area of 32R north of 9R/27L almost to the VOR.

Quoting kbmiflyer (Reply 11):

32L/14R will be renamed to 15/33 and will be around until they start the phase of construction of the western half of 9C/27C. All this is subject to change, as there are many complaints about noise since the east west configurations started.

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:19 pm
by sovietjet
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
KORD 080257Z 0803/0906 19012KT P6SM OVC050
FM080600 20015KT P6SM FEW015 BKN050
FM081500 20015G22KT P6SM SCT010 BKN030
FM081800 21017G25KT P6SM FEW020 BKN030
FM090200 20015KT P6SM -SHRA SCT007 BKN010

Can you translate this to normal English?

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:30 pm
by DiscoverCSG
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 17):

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
KORD 080257Z 0803/0906 19012KT P6SM OVC050
FM080600 20015KT P6SM FEW015 BKN050
FM081500 20015G22KT P6SM SCT010 BKN030
FM081800 21017G25KT P6SM FEW020 BKN030
FM090200 20015KT P6SM -SHRA SCT007 BKN010

Can you translate this to normal English?

My layperson's attempt, using the third line as an example:

FM08 means March 8 (yesterday)
1500 means 3:00 p.m.
200 means wind direction (so, SSW)
15 means sustained wind speed
G22KT means gusting to 22 knots
P6SM (?)
SCT010 means there's a chance of scattered precipitation, covering about 10% of the area at a given time.
BKN 030 means that there are broken clouds at about 3000 feet.

How did I do?

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:20 pm
by jetblastdubai
Quoting airstatdfw (Reply 16):
It was in the plan due to the restriction of not having more than 8 Rwys.

I'm aware of that restriction. Same reason runway 36 was officially kept open for years, yet was never used. It was a political "number of runways" game...nothing else.

My question is: why close 32R and keep 4L instead of closing 4L and keeping 32R?

RE: How Strong Must ORD Winds Be To Land On 22's?

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:29 pm
by PHLapproach
Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 18):
My layperson's attempt, using the third line as an example:

FM08 means March 8 (yesterday)
1500 means 3:00 p.m.
200 means wind direction (so, SSW)
15 means sustained wind speed
G22KT means gusting to 22 knots
P6SM (?)
SCT010 means there's a chance of scattered precipitation, covering about 10% of the area at a given time.
BKN 030 means that there are broken clouds at about 3000 feet.

How did I do?

Mostly right, however a few corrections. FM means From which is called a "Main Body" of a forecast and starts at the time that follows which is Zulu time not local 24hr time. P6SM means visibility greater than 6 statue miles. If it was less than 6 there would be no P. So it would just be 3SM. SCT010 is scattered 1,000 ft AGL and BKN030 there is a broken ceiling at 3,000ft AGL.