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KarelXWB
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CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:09 am

CSeries is getting closer to entry into service as Bombardier and Swiss have commenced route proving flights in Europe.

Quote:
Bombardier Commercial Aircraft announced today that it has commenced CS100 aircraft route-proving exercises in Europe. The month-long program is underway with a dedicated CS100 route-proving aircraft operated by Bombardier from launch operator Swiss International Air Lines’ (“SWISS”) base in Zurich, Switzerland. The route-proving exercises are scheduled to include main European cities such a Brussels, Vienna and Warsaw. Additionally, Bombardier also confirmed that the last of eight flight test vehicles – the second CS300 aircraft – successfully entered the flight test program in Mirabel, Québec last week.

The European route-proving program is being conducted as SWISS readies for the CS100 aircraft’s entry-into-service (EIS). The airline’s first CS100 aircraft is scheduled to be delivered by Bombardier in Q2 2016.

Press release
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/n...-off-in-europe-.bombardiercom.html
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runway23
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:22 am

Is the inclusion of BRU, VIE and WAW in that press release a clear sign of who they intend to target as next customers in Europe ?
 
Amiga500
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:25 am

Quoting runway23 (Reply 1):
Is the inclusion of BRU, VIE and WAW in that press release a clear sign of who they intend to target as next customers in Europe ?

I'm stupid - help me out???
 
TC957
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:30 am

I think the CS 100 / 300 would be an excellent fit for SN, OS and LO.
 
LSZH34
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:41 am

Quoting runway23 (Reply 1):
Is the inclusion of BRU, VIE and WAW in that press release a clear sign of who they intend to target as next customers in Europe ?

Could be, but these are also destinations in the LX network.
 
NH203
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:50 am

Quoting runway23 (Reply 1):
Is the inclusion of BRU, VIE and WAW in that press release a clear sign of who they intend to target as next customers in Europe ?

As BRU, WAW and VIE see regular service on Avro or Helvetic F100/E-Jet aircraft, I'd rather say these are destinations LX is likely to operate the CS100 to.
 
LSZH34
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:57 am

 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:15 pm

She flew to Hannover earlier today.
 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:24 pm

Just arrived back in ZRH
 
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Wingtip1005
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:32 pm

Would love to see it in BHX, LX are double daily here so I have my fingers crossed.

Does anyone know what callsign they are doing the routes under? Would like to catch her landing, and flight radar could make that happen!
Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change
 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:34 pm

Quoting Wingtip1005 (Reply 9):
Does anyone know what callsign they are doing the routes under

Yes: BBA506 and BBA507.
Aircraft registration: C-FFCO
 
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Wingtip1005
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:40 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 10):

Brilliant, thank you very much!  
Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change
 
columba
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:30 pm

Any chance that the CSeries will visit TXL ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:41 pm

Are they actually operating LX flights with LX cabin crews and BBD cockpit crews or are they operating typical LX routes without passengers or with invited passengers?   
 
INFINITI329
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:43 pm

Im assuming this is where LH/LX will be really studying the fuel numbers
 
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larshjort
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:50 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 13):
Are they actually operating LX flights with LX cabin crews and BBD cockpit crews or are they operating typical LX routes without passengers or with invited passengers?


As it is not yet certified they cannot carry any passengers. They are running route proving flights which is a part of the test program. They might as well do from the base of the launch customer so LX will get accurate numbers on the exact routes they are operating.

/Lars
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rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:56 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 15):
As it is not yet certified they cannot carry any passengers

IIRC, the CSeries are certified. Am I wrong?
 
mozart
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:56 pm

Saw the plane last night at ZRH airport where it was parked on the Southern apron, close to the SRTechnics hangar. Not in LX colours, but blue tail with "CS100" written on it.
 
LSZH34
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:02 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 12):

Any chance that the CSeries will visit TXL ?

Never say never   So far I only got VIE confirmed.

Quoting Wingtip1005 (Reply 9):
Would love to see it in BHX

BHX has a higher chance to see it than TXL as this route is regurarly operated by the Avros.
 
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LX8626
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting Wingtip1005 (Reply 9):
Would love to see it in BHX, LX are double daily here so I have my fingers crossed.

She is planned to be there  
 
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LX8626
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:16 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 12):
Any chance that the CSeries will visit TXL ?

TXL is not planned.


Quoting rbrunner (Reply 13):
Are they actually operating LX flights with LX cabin crews and BBD cockpit crews or are they operating typical LX routes without passengers or with invited passengers?


Neither LX cockpit nor LX cabin. BBD cockpit is flying and BBD Cabin is also on board. LX Cockpit is only observer.
No pax on board. Only involved employees on board.


Quoting larshjort (Reply 15):
IIRC, the CSeries are certified. Am I wrong?

CS100 is certified, correct. But FTV1 is still a "test vehicle".
 
DALCE
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:20 pm

any chance we will see this bird at AMS?
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753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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LX8626
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:22 pm

Quoting Dalce (Reply 21):
any chance we will see this bird at AMS?

No. AMS is not planned.
 
DALCE
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:24 pm

that's a pity. Would have loved to see this bird.
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753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
Dash9
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:34 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 16):

IIRC, the CSeries are certified. Am I wrong?

Is it certifiec in Canada only. FAA and European certification are in progress but not completed yet.

Quoting LX8626 (Reply 20):
CS100 is certified, correct. But FTV1 is still a "test vehicle".

The CS100 currently running routes in Europe is P1 which is the first production standard aircraft. It is not a test vehicule, it is not fitted with extensive testing equipments, no chute in case they need to abandon the aircraft, etc. P1 will eventually be deliveredf to a customer.

Quoting LX8626 (Reply 20):


Neither LX cockpit nor LX cabin. BBD cockpit is flying and BBD Cabin is also on board.

Indeed the press release implies the aircraft is flown by BBD flight test team. but I recall reading somewhere else that the flying would be shared between BBD and LX. I'll post a source if I can put my hand on it

-Dash9
 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting Dash9 (Reply 24):
The CS100 currently running routes in Europe is P1 which is the first production standard aircraft

That's what I thought.



Quoting Dash9 (Reply 24):
FAA and European certification are in progress

When are FAA and European certification expected? Do we know?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:59 pm

I came across the following schedule:

Quote:

08.03.2016:HAJ (1045-1215 in HAJ)
09.03.2016 BRU
10.03.2016 BUD/MXP
11.03.2016 VIE (0900-1215 in VIE)
14.03.2016 CDG
15.03.2016 MAN
16.03.2016 DUS (0945-1110 in DUS)
16.03.2016 KRK
17.03.2016 LUX/VCE
18.03.2016 BHX
19.03.2016 OTP
21.03.2016 MUC (0845-0930 in MUC)
21.03.2016 GVA
22.03.2016 WAW
23.03.2016 NCE
23.03.2016 STR (1220-1300 in STR)
24.03.2016 PRG
25.03.2016 DEP-> Montreal (Kanada)

Source
http://forum.airliners.de/topic/3205...lles-zur-bombardier-cseries/page-6
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Dash9
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 25):
When are FAA and European certification expected? Do we know?

Unfortunately I'm not in the secret. I was hoping for a fast certification but it will soon be 3 months since TC certified the CS100. Hopefully its a matter of days now
 
Dash9
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 25):
Quoting LX8626 (Reply 20):


Neither LX cockpit nor LX cabin. BBD cockpit is flying and BBD Cabin is also on board.

Indeed the press release implies the aircraft is flown by BBD flight test team. but I recall reading somewhere else that the flying would be shared between BBD and LX. I'll post a source if I can put my hand on it

Here's the source that indicated Swiss pilots are flying (french)

"Navigants techniques de Swiss et de Bombardier se partagent les commandes."

In english:
"Swiss and BBD pilots are sharing the commands"

http://www.air-cosmos.com/bombardier...avec-les-personnels-de-swiss-65139

That being said this source has no source  
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:52 pm

I'm surprised LCY is not on the list as I would expect that to be one of the very first destinations upon entry to service with LX
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Dash9
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 29):
I'm surprised LCY is not on the list as I would expect that to be one of the very first destinations upon entry to service with LX

I don't think the CS100 is certified yet for steep approach
 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:05 pm

Quoting Dash9 (Reply 30):
I don't think the CS100 is certified yet for steep approach

You're absolutely right - yet!
 
YXwatcherMKE
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:02 am

Could it be that these proving Flights/operations are needed for European certification. Once it gets the European Certification I would think the FAA. What di you guys think this as about other than help LX prep for C100 operation and some PR work for BBD?
I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
 
r2rho
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:05 am

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 32):
Could it be that these proving Flights/operations are needed for European certification. Once it gets the European Certification I would think the FAA. What di you guys think this as about other than help LX prep for C100 operation and some PR work for BBD?

PR work it is not, otherwise BBD would be publicizing it rather than keeping the schedule "secret". And it's a shame, because they would do well in showing off the CSeries' quietness on the Continent of Curfews.
I also don't think that EASA would demand much more additional testing for certification. IMO, this campaign is mainly for maturity, customer familiarization, and ensuring a smooth EIS - which the CSeries absolutely needs.
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:12 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):
15.03.2016 MAN

Hmmm if only it was the next day. Darn...
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Jalap
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:30 pm

Pictures from Brussels here: http://flightlevel.be/50478/50478/

I expected it to be the one in Swiss colours...
 
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Polot
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 33):
PR work it is not, otherwise BBD would be publicizing it rather than keeping the schedule "secret". And it's a shame, because they would do well in showing off the CSeries' quietness on the Continent of Curfews.
Quoting Jalap (Reply 35):
I expected it to be the one in Swiss colours...

I think if the C series debacle has taught us one thing, it is that BBD's sales and PR team is hardly world class even if the aircraft itself is.

Boeing and Airbus would never be this secretive about where the plane is going. Airbus even announced the A350's planned routes beforehand. I can understand not going to specifics such as days, as that could change if something crops up, but still, give European cities something that can be placed in local press/forums.
 
Dash9
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:53 pm

Quoting Jalap (Reply 35):
I expected it to be the one in Swiss colours...

FTV5 (MSN 50005) has the Swiss colors buts its a flight test aircraft, not 100% representative of production. The aircraft currently testing routes in Europe is P1 (MSN 50006) which will eventual be delivered to a client. I assuage it will be Swiss but am not 100% sure.

Quoting Polot (Reply 36):
Boeing and Airbus would never be this secretive about where the plane is going.

BBD was not secretive at all when they sent FTV5 to Le Bourget, then recently to Singapore Air Show, Korea, Turkey, Morocco, etc. Maybe Swiss is the one that doesn't want to make this route proving activity too public.

Dash9
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

Appreantly it has too much technology to be a sales success, according to Delta.


"It's highly engineered, which I think has been some of the challenges they've faced in marketing it, getting to a price point to get paid for that engineering," president Ed Bastian told analysts at the J.P. Morgan Aviation, Transportation & Industrials Conference in New York City.

full link: http://www.montrealgazette.com/busin...ys+delta+lines/11771160/story.html
 
hivue
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:16 pm

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 38):
Appreantly it has too much technology to be a sales success, according to Delta.

How much technology is "too much technology?" What specific technology is "too much technology?" Has BBD done ground-breaking, expensive new work in aviation technology or have they simply spent too much re-inventing the wheel?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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Quantos
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 39):
How much technology is "too much technology?" What specific technology is "too much technology?" Has BBD done ground-breaking, expensive new work in aviation technology or have they simply spent too much re-inventing the wheel?

There's a difference between reinventing the wheel which refers to a needless improvement and improving upon the wheel whilst being forced to charge a higher price because of the technological improvements involved. I think Delta is referring to the latter.
Quantos,

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marktci
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:05 pm

Delta's statement is posturing, setting the stage for (possible) future negotiations. They are basically saying that, while Bombardier has packed the plane with all the latest technologies, Delta questions whether the benefits from those technologies are worth the cost. Something that Bombardier may value at $XX, airlines may only value at 50% of $XX. Now, if Bombardier were to drop the price to the value ascribed by Delta (or any other airline in its negotiations), there might be an opportunity to demonstrate that the value really is $XX and charge that to future customers.

I don't read any more into Delta's statement than that.
 
LONGisland89
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:40 pm

It is definitely not a publicity tour as others alluded to above. The proving runs are attempting to fix technical issues. A contact at LX tells me the CSeries can't fly cat III dual, only cat III single and they are having software issues preventing flex takeoffs.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:46 pm

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 42):
A contact at LX tells me the CSeries can't fly cat III dual, only cat III single and they are having software issues preventing flex takeoffs

There is a lot of "sound and fury" in these CSeries threads, that typically signifies nothing.. but THIS is worrisome if true, Any hint as to how serious this might be?

To those familiar with certification test programs (CSeries or otherwise), would this be something that is tested as part of the certification program?
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:48 pm

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 42):
CSeries can't fly cat III dual, only cat III single and they are having software issues preventing flex takeoffs.

Care to explain those terms for the non experts here?
 
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KarelXWB
Topic Author
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:13 am

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 42):
A contact at LX tells me the CSeries can't fly cat III dual, only cat III single and they are having software issues preventing flex takeoffs.

Cat III dual, cat III single, flex takeoffs, what does it all mean?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Paolo92
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:33 am

I think they mean that they're not ILS CAT3B approved yet. This is normal, as usually an operator gets the approval for the aircraft type after the Type certificate is issued (1) and after some extra tests are performed (2). The same was true for the Embraer E-Jets when introduced to Europe.

For the flex takeoffs, that's reduced takeoff thrust based on an assumed temperature (see here for details: http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Reduced_Thrust_Takeoff
This as well, could be a limitation due to the lack of approval. Unless, of course, there are some software issues. But this is the first time I hear about it, and I guess this kind of rumour would have surfaced a little earlier than after the Canadian certification already completed.
Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:51 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
flex takeoffs

Flex takeoffs very much increase the lifespan of the engines. Under ideal conditions (long rwy, etc.), the takeoff setting is FLEX, not TOGA. FLEX gets you airborne safely, clearing anything ahead of you without using maximum thrust. If you're taking off from a short runway (possibly at altitude), you use TOGA, which uses max power.
 
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KarelXWB
Topic Author
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:42 am

Thanks guys, I learned something new today.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
rbrunner
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RE: CSeries Starts Route Proving In Europe

Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:52 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
Cat III dual, cat III single
Pilots use Cat III Single (Autopilot1 engaged) while flying in good weather and visibility and Cat III Dual (Autopilot1 + 2 engaged) when flying in poor weather and visibility. Deploying both autopilots on an Airbus actually engages "Autoland".

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