Qantas59
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TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:34 am

Ansett entered SYD-PER service on 29 Jun 81 with 727-277LR (long range?) equipment.

My question is, did TAA also operate this service? If so, when did they start? Did they utilize the A300 on it?
Thanks for any replies.
Cheers.
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skyhawkmatthew
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:53 am

Thanks to the onerous nature of the Two Airline Policy at the time, I would not be surprised if TN entered that market with the same equipment on the same date or close to it. It seems TAA chose not to brand their 727-200 Advanced aircraft as 'LR', though.

[Edited 2016-03-09 18:00:19]
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vhqpa
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:59 am

I'm lead to believe the two airline policy was somewhat relaxed at some point in the late 70s so they could make independent fleet decisions. I'd be interested to know how that impacted how schedules were regulated when TAA had considerably bigger A300s than Ansett's 767-200s prior to that it was simply same fare, same schedule and same plane.

The 727LR was an internal designation for Ansett. IIRC it was a 727-200 Adv. with higher MTOW and I believe an Aux fuel tank. Ansett ordered it specifically to do SYD-PER nonstop with a full payload. I don't believe TAA operated any 727s in that configuration. Keep in mind that all 727-200s in Australia were the Advanced model. 727LR was part of Ansett's initial independent order along with the 767-200 and 737-200.

Interestingly enough back in the late 60s Ansett ordered two convertable 727-100C. TAA's corresponding order was for two full pax 727-100.
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TN486
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:43 am

Hi Qantas59, good to hear from you.

To answer your question briefly!! Here goes.

1. AN and TN op SYD - PER and return from 1972 with the 727-200. I have an AN schedule Aug - Oct 73 showing SYD-PER flt 220 Dep SYD 2015 arr PER 2240 Thu, Fri, Sun. Dep PER 0010 Arr SYD 0605 Daily ex WED, Thu. (the 2 xtra flights were op from the evenings MEL-PER direct flight).
2. I suspect the 200LR ac were introduced in order to combat the upcoming op of TN's A300 direct service, which commenced on 25 Oct 81 on receipt of their third ac (VH TAC). However, here's the "rub"!! I have proof of a direct A300 service MEL - PER and PER - SYD but not SYD - PER. The routings of the initial A300 services were as follows:
TN4 MEL - PER 0900 - 0945 TN5 PER - MEL 1100 - 1715 (Sat and sun).
TN14 MEL - PER 2000 - 2045 (daily ex sat) then TN11 PER - SYD 2315 - 0610 (next day).(daily ex sun)
All of the above from TN Timetable eff 25 Oct 81. I strongly suspect SYD - PER A300 was never scheduled (allbeit it may have happened spasmodically). The evening rotation MEL - PER -SYD with the A300 didnt last much more than 12 months.
3. I suspect the 200LR purchased by AN was in fact an upgraded model from the 727 Advanced. I vaguely remember a big hoo-haa Boeing/Ansett promo at the time.
The 2 airlines policy ensured AN and TN ordered the same equipment right up until 1981. TN 12 727(200A) - VH TBG thru TBR and AN 12 727(200) VH RMK thru RMZ. AN received approval to purchase 4 200LR VH ANA, B, E, and F, receiving delivery June and July 1981, and TN received 3 of their A300B ac Jul, Aug and Oct 81.
For those interested in the history and politics of the 2 airline policy please read this:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/FedLRev/1982/3.pdf
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Qantas59
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:51 am

Cheers for that John. Always appreciate your detailed data and time spent to answer my questions.
Makes complete sense that the the 727-277LR was the marketing response to TAAs upcoming A300 deliveries.
On a side note I found the May 1961 Ansett-ANA timetable lists AN210/AN211 MEB-PER-MEB Electra service as "The Golden Rocket Service". Very cool!


[Edited 2016-03-09 22:59:31]

[Edited 2016-03-09 23:16:04]

[Edited 2016-03-09 23:17:20]
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skyhawkmatthew
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:27 am

Quoting Qantas59 (Reply 4):
On a side note I found the May 1961 Ansett-ANA timetable lists AN210/AN211 MEB-PER-MEB Electra service as "The Golden Rocket Service". Very cool!

Further to this, I also came across this in the schedule, and I love the additional note stating that "breakfast for First Class passengers on the PER-MEB Golden Rocket service will be served after arrival in Melbourne." Who these days would hang around after their flight for their airline meal!
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:14 pm

When did TAA receive their first A300 I thought it was after the two airline policy was dumped?
I remember seeing an old Age newspaper at our library at work (they collect all the age newspapers right back since it was the Argus)
anyway I think I was looking at an very early 1970s Age and an add for TAA was in there about the future and I remember seeing some thing
about an A300 or a possible DC-10, imagine seeing a DC-10 in the TAA 1970s blue livery anyway did TAA look at getting a DC-10 once?
 
TN486
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:34 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 6):
When did TAA receive their first A300 I thought it was after the two airline policy was dumped?

Good evening. The link in my previous post describes the lead up to and including the "relaxation" and then the "axing" of the 2 airline policy. 1981 was the commencement of the "relaxation" period, and I am absolutely certain both AN and TN had been given the heads up earlier (note the order dates of the TN A300B and AN 727 200LR). www.aussieairliners.net is a wealth of info re aircraft history.

Prior to TN ordering the A300B, they considered the DC10 and the L1011 (Tristar). A300B won!!
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:07 am

I had no idea that they were looking at a Tri star as well, I wounder at the time what would have AN response would have been to that?
 
TN486
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RE: TN Vs. AN On SYD-PER (question)

Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:28 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 8):
I had no idea that they were looking at a Tri star as well, I wounder at the time what would have AN response would have been to that?

Exactly the same as the response to the A300, nothing (initially). AN, by good luck or by good fortune, felt the time was not right (1981) for intro of a wide body, and so it proved. TN finished up leasing most of their A300 fleet at various times (and delayed the arrival of the 5th for a year) as there was a massive downturn in the domestic economy. AN's response was to take delivery of 3 767 277's in June 83 with a 4th in Aug 83, and a fifth in Sep 84. By that time the economy was performing much better.

Quoting Qantas59 (Reply 4):
"The Golden Rocket Service". Very cool!

Not forgetting TN's "Rocket" MEB-BNE "Blue Ribbon" MEB-ADL-PER, "Cannonball" SYD-ADL and "Bird of Paradise" SYD-BNE-POM. or AN's "Golden Rocket" MEB-BNE-TVL-CNS, "Golden Arrow" SYD-ADL, "Golden Boomerang" SYD-MTI-DRW, the mornings "Golden Mercury" CNS-TVL-BNE, and the Heli S61 from the mainland to the Barrier Reef Islands "Golden Islander". Thems were the "romantic" days of flying"
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back

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